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#31 of 345 Old 03-13-2011, 06:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by UnderTheMoon View Post

for me faxxing is like circumcistion.  i can't expose my babes to something so harmful without a really good reason so wehn they are older theyc an decide.  mabye when they are teens but maybe when they are adults.



I think in exactly the opposite way.   I can't withhold something so safe from my children, and I will do anything to strive to allow them to live the healthiest life possible!  That includes fully vaccinating them.

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#32 of 345 Old 03-13-2011, 08:48 AM
 
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Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post





I think in exactly the opposite way.   I can't withhold something so safe from my children, and I will do anything to strive to allow them to live the healthiest life possible!  That includes fully vaccinating them.


Vaccines do not make children healthy (see my post of the Hayward study below). We all want our children to live the healthiest lives possible which is why some of us choose not to vaccinate. 

 

 


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#33 of 345 Old 03-13-2011, 09:04 AM
 
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I have researched the immunizations my son gets thoroughly, and feel knowledgeable about the diseases, the benefits of the immunizations, and I am comfortable with the high risk of minor side effects and very low risk of major adverse reactions. I immunize on a Canadian schedule - no hep B for infants or rotavirus immunization. I watch the epidemiology of the flu each year before deciding if I will get the shot myself, and will do the same for my DS.

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#34 of 345 Old 03-13-2011, 09:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MsFortune View Post

I'm pro-science.  We vax.


 

For the record, consumers who question CDC orders aren't against science.  On the contrary, we're demanding more of it. thumb.gif

 

Selective and delayed vax for us. 


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#35 of 345 Old 03-13-2011, 10:53 AM
 
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I am anti science and have yet to vaccinate my children winky.gif Although seriously. Being pro science and following the CDC schedule do not have to be mutually exclusive positions. 

 

Risk benefit analysis is essentially at the crux of the decision. No vaccine is 100% effective. So, if I choose to vaccinate, I am taking a risk of a reaction and the risk of the vaccine not working and my child getting the disease anyway.

 

The balance of information is very much in favour of vaccines being beneficial and diseases being dangerous. To the best of my knowledge there is no good science to say that vaccines can cause harm in all but the most unusual cases. However, there is not any good science studying the safety of individual vaccines,their ingredients or specific vaccine schedules. So right now we are in a situation where you make a choice and hope for the best for your child.

 

Each family needs to be able to make the choice based on their comfort levels with the risks being taken. I personally am not comfortable injecting aluminum into my child, or mercury. Another family would not feel comfortable with seeing their child sick with a disease that could have been prevented with a vaccine.

Neither choice is without it's risks. 

 

 


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#36 of 345 Old 03-13-2011, 11:40 AM
 
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Vaccines do not make children healthy (see my post of the Hayward study below). We all want our children to live the healthiest lives possible which is why some of us choose not to vaccinate. 

 

 



I didn't see any reference to children's health in your post.  I saw information about dogs' health.  I would suggest you check out carriebft's post from yesterday regarding a vaccinated/unvaccinated study on actual children.  This post, published this year, rather than 14 years ago like the other one, seems to suggest the opposite of your concerns.

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#37 of 345 Old 03-13-2011, 03:41 PM
 
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Like MsFortune, I'm pro-science and both my daughters are fully vaccinated.

 

I have read the research and feel very comfortable with this decision.  Also, as a college student, I studied abroad in a third world country where not everyone had access to vaccinations, so the consequences of a largely unvaccinated society are not abstract to me; I've seen them personally.

 

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#38 of 345 Old 03-13-2011, 04:01 PM
 
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I am pro science.  I do not vaccinate.

 

I am very tired of it being implied that I am not science-y enough  - or I would vax.  It is patronizing.

 

Kathy

 

(edited to add:  while I am pro-science, I have had some experiences that cause me to distrust vaccines and vaccinators. They include:  offering DPT when DaPt was available because DPT was cheaper...and who cares that it was not as safe?  Removing thermisol from vaccines due to safety issues (or perceived safety issues) but allowing old batches with the thermisol to be used, front line staff being unable to answer my questions  on vaxes  or unable to point me to research....)

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#39 of 345 Old 03-13-2011, 04:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post





I think in exactly the opposite way.   I can't withhold something so safe from my children, and I will do anything to strive to allow them to live the healthiest life possible!  That includes fully vaccinating them.


Vaxing does not equate to allowing them to live the healthiest life possible.

 

The diseases vaccines are available for are generally rare, benign, or not very effective.  

 

Vaccination may have contributed to diseases being rare.  Indeed, you can vaccinate as a way to support herd immunity.  

 

I would not go into vaxxing thinking it was going to protect my individual child and make them healthier - because they question is :  protect them from what???

 

DPT - D and T are very rare,  for P the vaccines is quite ineffective.

MMR - all 3 are benign-ish in children.  Measles may be the exception.

HIB  (ok - not sure - must look up, lol)

 

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#40 of 345 Old 03-13-2011, 04:26 PM
 
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i definitely vaccinate. we were slightly delayed, because i was hearing a lot of people saying they weren't vaccinating - people whose other parenting decisions i very much respected, so i was convinced that there must be some strong evidence to support not vaccinating our children. i dutifully read all the research these people were pointing me to, and i literally couldn't find anything that was conclusive enough to make me not want to vaccinate. so at 6 months i started my dd on the regular course of shots (we're in canada too, so a different schedule)... we are still not quite caught up, but our wonderful ped has been very relaxed about it.

 

i am actually quite embarrassed that i was so easily swayed by a handful of people. i grew up in a third world country too, where the reality of a largely non-vaccinated population is right in front of you all the time. 

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#41 of 345 Old 03-13-2011, 04:27 PM
 
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I'm pro-science too and I still don't vaccinate.  Luckily, I am able to differentiate between facts and opinions and understand how to weigh benefits versus risks.  Amazingly enough I still come to the same conclusion every time.


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#42 of 345 Old 03-13-2011, 04:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by SilverFish View Post

i definitely vaccinate. we were slightly delayed, because i was hearing a lot of people saying they weren't vaccinating - people whose other parenting decisions i very much respected, so i was convinced that there must be some strong evidence to support not vaccinating our children. i dutifully read all the research these people were pointing me to, and i literally couldn't find anything that was conclusive enough to make me not want to vaccinate. so at 6 months i started my dd on the regular course of shots (we're in canada too, so a different schedule)... we are still not quite caught up, but our wonderful ped has been very relaxed about it.

 

i am actually quite embarrassed that i was so easily swayed by a handful of people. i grew up in a third world country too, where the reality of a largely non-vaccinated population is right in front of you all the time. 


Is it b/c they aren't vaccinated or b/c is un or under developed? NAK

 


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#43 of 345 Old 03-13-2011, 05:04 PM
 
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We vaccinate.  The research provided by the anti-vaccination side is highly suspect and/or interpreted poorly.

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#44 of 345 Old 03-13-2011, 05:08 PM
 
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Vaxing does not equate to allowing them to live the healthiest life possible.

 

The diseases vaccines are available for are generally rare, benign, or not very effective.  

 

Vaccination may have contributed to diseases being rare.  Indeed, you can vaccinate as a way to support herd immunity.  

 

I would not go into vaxxing thinking it was going to protect my individual child and make them healthier - because they question is :  protect them from what???

 

DPT - D and T are very rare,  for P the vaccines is quite ineffective.

MMR - all 3 are benign-ish in children.  Measles may be the exception.

HIB  (ok - not sure - must look up, lol)

 


You may consider them benign.  I don't.  During my residency, we had an excellent ASL translator at our clinic.  Because of this, we had a huge amount of Deaf patients.  Very few were deaf from birth.  Most were deaf from your "benign" diseases, HiB especially.  I also had several patients with congenital rubella syndrome.  Blind (from congenital cataracts), deaf and developmentally disabled.  Yup, sounds like a walk in the park!

 

Thanks, I'll keep vaccinating.

 

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#45 of 345 Old 03-13-2011, 05:12 PM
 
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We vaccinate, on a somewhat delayed schedule at this point but that's more due to circumstances than convictions.

We travel to areas where certain VPDs are far more commonplace than in the U.S., I've never yet heard particularly convincing scientific arguments against, I'm not anti-"medical establishment" (i.e., I don't find medical science to be suspect by nature or believe it is a heartlessly money-driven enterprise) so I do trust my doctor's knowledge better than I trust google or (nothing personal, folks) impassioned arguments on message boards, and I'm basically ok with the "social responsibility of herd immunity" premise. Thus.
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#46 of 345 Old 03-13-2011, 05:27 PM
 
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We're pro-science, and we don't vaccinate.  Scientifically, vaccines have never been proven to be safe.  The reporting system is about as anti-science as you can get...passive, under-reported...therefore, there are no accurate numbers to base a true risk vs. benefit analysis off of.  Defaulting to the biological norm in the absence of verifiable evidence of safety (and without an increased risk of catching or having complications from disease) is not anti-science...it is common sense.

 

You can't put a claim on pro-vaccine as pro-science when science doesn't truly support the current vaccine program, and never has.


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#47 of 345 Old 03-13-2011, 05:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Liquesce View Post
We travel to areas where certain VPDs are far more commonplace than in the U.S., I've never yet heard particularly convincing scientific arguments against, I'm not anti-"medical establishment" (i.e., I don't find medical science to be suspect by nature or believe it is a heartlessly money-driven enterprise) so I do trust my doctor's knowledge better than I trust google or (nothing personal, folks) impassioned arguments on message boards, and I'm basically ok with the "social responsibility of herd immunity" premise. Thus.



I love when someone else types everything I would say, but nicer.  I'd still get my kids fully vaccinated even if we didn't travel overseas, but the travel seals it for us.

 

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#48 of 345 Old 03-13-2011, 05:29 PM
 
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You may consider them benign.  I don't.  During my residency, we had an excellent ASL translator at our clinic.  Because of this, we had a huge amount of Deaf patients.  Very few were deaf from birth.  Most were deaf from your "benign" diseases, HiB especially.  I also had several patients with congenital rubella syndrome.  Blind (from congenital cataracts), deaf and developmentally disabled.  Yup, sounds like a walk in the park!

 

Thanks, I'll keep vaccinating.

 


I am  not trying to talk you out of vaccinating.  Do as you like.

 

The stats are pretty clear, though - benign diseases are just that - benign for the majority of the population.

 

I suspect that what you have seen would influence your decision - it is natural.  It does not change the fact that rubella and mumps in childhood are benign for the vast majority of people where I live.....

 

There were 9 cases of Rubella in the USA in a recent year.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2005/03/21/rubella-stats050321.html

So...you may have seen people with congenital rubella from the past, but it is unlikely you are seeing any babies now with it.  So - this is an argument for herd immunity, if you like, but it is hardly an argument for keeping your individual child healthy - because the likelihood of your child contacting rubella is really, really low - and the likelihood of them having any issues due to rubella is low.  I have not done the math but (unless you travel a fair bit) I bet your child is more likely to find to find a million dollar lottery ticket on the street than be harmed by rubella.

 

 

 

 

 

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#49 of 345 Old 03-13-2011, 05:35 PM
 
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We don't vaccinate, because the documented, known risks of vaccines range from mild to very serious, and the true extent of these risks remain unknown due to a very inadequate reporting system.  Also, there has never been research done on 1) long-term risks of vaccines  2) individual susceptibility or  3) individual vaccine ingredients.

 

There are neurotoxic ingredients in vaccines, which my daughter reacted to and still has problems from seven years after getting that particular set of infant shots.  She has been diagnosed as having heavy metal toxicity (not shocking since there are heavy metals in the vaccines) and as a result suffers from severe mineral deficiencies despite a near perfect diet.  After supplementing her with mega doses of certain minerals, she has shown dramatic improvement but still has a ways to go.

 

We would never vaccinate our children without a clear and direct risk factor in place.  Simply being a child does not meet that criteria.  My five year old is completely vaccine free, and the healthiest child I know.  My oldest is healthy too, besides the neurological issues she deals with as a result of our carelessly agreeing to allow vaccines injected into her tiny body while her neurological system was still rapidly developing.


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#50 of 345 Old 03-13-2011, 05:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MsFortune View Post

I'm pro-science.  We vax.


I am revisiting this statement because it has been bugging me.

 

I do not know if you are implying that non-vaxers are not scientific - although I assume you are, or else why else post this?

 

It you are saying non-vaxxers are unscientific it seems to be quite a generalization.  

 

I breastfed through difficulty because it was scientifically better for the baby and I, I read up on nutrition and have increased certain foods while decreasing others because if is scientifically proven blueberries are better than blueberry doughnuts....

 

I have come to a different conclusion than you on vaccines - that does not make me "not scientific".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#51 of 345 Old 03-13-2011, 05:48 PM
 
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We vax. I have to admit reading the vax forums here is a pretty big part of the reason why I decided vaxing was best for us. Anti-vax rhetoric just seems to be that, rhetoric and not based on much actual science.

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#52 of 345 Old 03-13-2011, 06:08 PM
 
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We're selective.  For a while, I was anti...I now feel like I was living in fear of an incredibly rare chance of a severe vaccine reaction that didn't hold up numbers-wise to the actual risks of certain diseases.  Taking both morbidity and mortality into consideration.  And just anecdotally, seeing all of my friends and family with their tons of kids all vaxed fully on schedule, perfectly healthy and developing beautifully helped a lot.


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We're pro-science and pro-evidence based medicine and we do vaccinate.  We spread them out and do them one at a time, but we certainly do them.  We travel regularly as a family and believe that it would be immoral to expose our daughter to VPDs and to spread them to others. 

 

 


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#54 of 345 Old 03-13-2011, 07:28 PM
 
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..  

 

 

 

 


 

 

 


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#55 of 345 Old 03-13-2011, 07:32 PM
 
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Yes.  I think they are ruled by a desire to do what they think is best for their kid, but they are not able to differentiate between objective facts and opinions, and they don't know how to weigh risks.  They are lulled into a false sense of security about VPDs because these diseases have been well managed during their lifetime.    

 

I don't really blame them - there is a lot of very convincing misinformation out there.

 

But their decisions are not science-based.  

 


And see, this is sort of how I feel about people who DO vaccinate.

We don't vax and it is very much based on science. My DH is a scientist, in fact, and I've had a lot of training in research methods and analysis myself, so we absolutely can differentiate between facts and opinions. We don't make our decisions based on misinformation and pseudo-science, and actually the majority of the research that has convinced me not to vax is the very same research that the CDC, WHO, etc. refer to. I have done tons of reading, mostly pro-vax, and have weighed the risks and benefits, and still feel it is best for me to not have DS vaxed. It's really condescending and kind of insulting to say that my decision is not science-based.

ETA -- FWIW, I think some of the pro-vax studies have some serious faults for something so supposedly 'scientific' -- like what is the science behind using another vax (rather than water) as a 'placebo' in the vast majority of studies?? What is the science behind recommending all babies, even of hep-B-negative moms, get the hep-B vax at birth? (I know the social policy behind it, but that's not 'science'...) What is the science behind continuing to use a vax that injures or kills more kids than the VPD itself would??? What is the science behind recommending or requiring a vax that has never even been tested for efficacy, or has even been proven to be ineffective??

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#56 of 345 Old 03-13-2011, 07:42 PM
 
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We started out on a delay schedule but we no longer vax.  We will revisit the issue again at some point to decide if we want to continue not vaxing or if we want to start vaxing for one or more VPDs.  for now, I am happy with our choice.

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#57 of 345 Old 03-13-2011, 07:48 PM
 
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I am naturally-minded and have decided, for myself, that I will not be vaccinating my child.

 

I am pro-science and anti-capitalist. I do not believe that most of the pro-vax medical studies out there weren't made without the economic incentives from the companies that make the products. I have done a lot of research as to the politics of drug-pedaling in our country, and I don't think it's the physicians are at fault - I think it's corporate interests.  I am not a conspiracy-theorist (I do, in fact, resent that implication and find it ignorant and patronizing). I am a well-educated person who is not naive to the way lobbying and drug-distribution works. I have been offered many prescriptions by presumably well-meaning physicians, two of which have almost killed me. These were very popular drugs that were gaining a lot of profit off of children and booming in distribution when I was offered them in my youth. I no longer take synthetic drugs and my supposedly incurable "ailments" are null. I'm not saying that drugs aren't sometimes necessary, but it certainly isn't necessary to inject EVERYONE with them from birth and in early childhood! I am pro-science and science is science - even political science. winky.gif

 

I'm with Crunchy_Mommy. I have not been convinced, even by well-financed studies pushed by very powerful drug companies, that immunizations actually carry more benefits than risks, overall. And, where a child lives day-to-day in a healthy environment, I strongly believe the opposite.


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#58 of 345 Old 03-13-2011, 09:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post




I am revisiting this statement because it has been bugging me.

 

I do not know if you are implying that non-vaxers are not scientific - although I assume you are, or else why else post this?

 

It you are saying non-vaxxers are unscientific it seems to be quite a generalization.  

 

I breastfed through difficulty because it was scientifically better for the baby and I, I read up on nutrition and have increased certain foods while decreasing others because if is scientifically proven blueberries are better than blueberry doughnuts....

 

I have come to a different conclusion than you on vaccines - that does not make me "not scientific".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


This. Exactly. That statement has bothered me for a day now and you said it perfectly. :)

 


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#59 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 02:52 AM
 
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I think that implying that the only decision that is science based is to follow the CDC schedule is inherently problematic. The ingredients in vaccines like Al and Hg, the combination of vaccines (receiving MMR with other vaccines) as well as the schedule itself have just not been studied. There is no science to conclude that the one size fits all schedules are safe and effective for every child.

 

I looked into the claims being made by various antivaccine 'activisits' and came to the conclusion that there is no compelling evidence that vaccines are causing harm in all but the most unusual cases. However, there is cause for concern. And the medical/scientific establishment seems to be doing what they can to dismiss the concerns as lunatic rather than address them.

 

I was also left with the impression that vaccines are very much a 'work in progress' and there is a huge amount still to be understood regarding the immune system, how best to use vaccines safely and effectively and more understanding is needed regarding the ecology of bacteria and viruses. And the impact vaccines can have on that ecology.

 

 


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#60 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 04:10 AM
 
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 I did look at the pro/anti material,but my real focus was just  the information on the vaccine inserts. I wanted to understand the pros and cons of each vaccine,and I wanted to know how each of the *acknowledged* adverse reactions my child might deal with are treated.

 

I was disappointed with how reactions are handled. I was(am) also disappointed by the NVICP,because it gives a VERY false sense of security. It would seem like you just call the 1-800 number,and all your medical worries will be taken care of. Many learn after the fact that the compensation program will not help them.Shoot,most times doctors will just deny the health issues following a vaccine.It really is quite easy to deny that a vaccine caused a health problem.

 

Reactions,injuries,and death may be rare,but when they happen they should be dealt with not denied. If the negatives of vaccines were handled better I might consider vaccines.

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Immunity , Vaccinations , Selective Vaccination , Delayed Vaccination , Measles , Autism , Travel

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