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#61 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 03:24 AM
 
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I vaccinate.  We're on schedule, BUT i'm in the UK and the vaccines and schedule are pretty different here.  If i were in the US i'd be selective and delayed, simply because many of the routine vaxes there i don't think are useful.  One of the good side-effects of the NHS having so little cash is that the vaccines it does offer need to be cost-effective, so each addition to the schedule is weighed differently.

 

I have never read anything compelling to make me think i shouldn't (and i read everything i could find, including things with words like "guinea pig" and "conspiracy" in the titles).  I'm comfortable with my decision but believe that for some families there is a definite case for not vaccinating and believe every family should be able to decide for themselves.  I have friends who choose not to vaccinate and in a way it works great for both of us, because she sees my kids are fine after vaccines, i see hers survived whooping cough just fine.  It's a good reality check to remember the best decision for me might not be the best for another person and that in this, as with so so many other parenting decisions, there are no absolutes.

 

There is autism in my family, none of those who have it were vaccinated on the modern schedule (too old) and so i neither fear autism nor would have a justifiable case for saying a vaccine caused it (when the genetic links are so strong).  I had a childhood friend die of measles so herd immunity does play into my thinking.  My kids have had reactions along the lines of a sore injection site, nothing worse.  I myself had the DTaP last Tuesday as i'd been scratched and pricked up terribly in the garden and not had a tetanus for 18 years!  I have a hard sore bruised lump, about what my kids get, possibly a little worse in me.

 

I find it depressing how much people seem to argue on MDC about this topic.

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#62 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 04:30 AM
 
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GoBecGo, I always appreciate your posts.

 

There are no absolutes. And it only makes the conversation unpleasant to have people insulting each others choices. 

 

It took me a while to figure out that the 'anti vaccine' crowd have no evidence of harm to support their concerns. But there is a huge gaping hole in the information available regarding concerns that some parents have.

 

I think there are valid reasons to be concerned. About specific vaccines. And about the politics surrounding vaccines.

 

When it comes down to it, and you can have a reasonable discussion without all the mudslinging, there is not really very much to say on either side.

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#63 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 06:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MsFortune View Post

I'm pro-science.  We vax.



I promise I'm not trying to hammer you, MsFortune. redface.gif I just had another thought on this, though.

 

I think your statement confuses facts and opinion.

 

IF --just for the sake of argument--we take at face value everything that public health officials are reporting to us as legitimate science, then we could see or compose a factual list of:

 

1. Risks and benefits of vaccines

2. Effectiveness of vaccines, including specifically what strains of a virus they are designed to go after

3. Risks, course, and likelihood of disease in question

4. Treatment for disease in question

 

These would be the facts.

 

Then we each have to answer the question: Should I subject my child to the risk of the vaccine or the risk of catching the disease that it targets?  The answer to that would be an opinion.

You are of the opinion that you should fully vax your children.  Hopefully that opinion is based on sound facts (the science), but it is an opinion nonetheless.  But one's opinion on the issue does not determine whether one "believes in" science. 

 

A notorious forced-vaccination proponent claims that the vaccination issue isn't "controversial" because Science has resolved the controversy.  Nope.  Science cannot resolve a clash of opinions.  Even when working off the same set of facts, people can (and have every right to!) come to different opinions.  


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#64 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 06:48 AM
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GoBecGo, I always appreciate your posts.

 

There are no absolutes. And it only makes the conversation unpleasant to have people insulting each others choices. 

 

It took me a while to figure out that the 'anti vaccine' crowd have no evidence of harm to support their concerns. But there is a huge gaping hole in the information available regarding concerns that some parents have.

 

I think there are valid reasons to be concerned. About specific vaccines. And about the politics surrounding vaccines.

 

When it comes down to it, and you can have a reasonable discussion without all the mudslinging, there is not really very much to say on either side.



For someone who is not a fan of getting negative a statement like that is really broad and generalized. Why is it that most non-vaxing families tend to be highly educated, affluent and incredibly well read on the subject??

There is evidence you just choose not to see it that way. There is also evidence that vaccines can be a "good" (I can't think of a more appropriate word) thing at times, hence the major issue. There is SCIENCE behind both sides. 

 

Ok, enough for me, I feel like this thread was created with the intent of starting an argument about it and I have better things to do today. I'll go off and be some fool now who just gets scared by the "propaganda" that vaccines are bad. DD is not vaxed and I just don't care what other people think at this point. I guarantee I have put more research into that decision than a lot of the mamas here who vaxed their kids. 

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#65 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 06:55 AM
 
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Do those of you who do not vaccinate travel internationally? 


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#66 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 07:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by freestylemama View Post

Do those of you who do not vaccinate travel internationally? 


Answering just for myself......

 

We do travel somewhat.  Thus far we have only been to places where the need to vax is no higher than it is in Canada.

 

I am going to Cuba soon - and am a little worried about Hep A.  I have started to research.  If I come to the conclusion that Hep A is dangerous, and there is a serious likelihood of us contracting it, I will skip Cuba. There are other sun destinations.  To be fair, my son thinks skipping Cuba over vaxxing is nuts, but my DD agrees with me.  In the end, and in addition to my usual concerns over vaxxing which I am not going to go into here, I do not want to give money to vaccine producers by using their product.    

 

The world is a big place.  I can find places to travel to that are safe for my family without vaccinating.

 

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#67 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 07:29 AM
 
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Do those of you who do not vaccinate travel internationally? 


My DS is only 2 and the thought of getting on a plane with him is a nightmare so we haven't traveled since his birth. We have traveled internationally (to third-world countries) in the past & I did not get the recommended vaxes (and malaria pills etc.) but DH did... I don't have plans or means to travel anyway right now but I would like to in the future. I'm not sure what we will do in terms of vaxing DS because the decisions we've come to have been made in the context of clean water, readily available medical care, etc. and obviously I'd need to reevaluate my decision based on the context of our destination, length of stay, amenities... I may choose to vax or I may choose to hold off on travel or I may choose to travel but without vaxing, I really couldn't say at this point without having a specific destination or specific VPDs in mind.

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#68 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 07:38 AM
 
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Before I started my research, I suspected that I would not vaccinate or would at least be very selective. However, my research has convinced me to give most vaccines. I simply have not found credible reasons to avoid vaccination. I have graduate-level training in science so the research is accessible to me and I am used to evaluating scientific literature. I have found some of the "anti-vaccine" websites and other resources contain misinterpretations of the scientific literature. I don't take the issue of vaccination lightly, but I think I will find myself giving most vaccines unless a health issue specific to my individual child dictates otherwise. We too will travel internationally. 

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#69 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 07:41 AM
 
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So I was thinking yesterday since "vaccines are for protection in case you get something/are exposed to something, that may or may not even be deadly" how many of you also put yourselves and your LOs in flame resistant PJ's, make sure the mattresses are flame resistant, all the furniture (couches ect) and rugs?

 

Tons of chemicals going into your body, some said to cause cancer and have other effects...but it's for the greater good right? Just in case there is a fire- you may or may not be protected by said chemicals. But I am sure there is a ton of science behind these chemicals saving lives and helping people to not catch on fire...

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#70 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 07:43 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freestylemama View Post

Do those of you who do not vaccinate travel internationally? 



Of course. I see no reason to vaccinate because of travel. Our bodies, especially my completely unvaxed children, have all they need to stay healthy. I certainly wouldn't put them in what I perceive to be harms way though.


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#71 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 08:38 AM
 
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So I was thinking yesterday since "vaccines are for protection in case you get something/are exposed to something, that may or may not even be deadly" how many of you also put yourselves and your LOs in flame resistant PJ's, make sure the mattresses are flame resistant, all the furniture (couches ect) and rugs?

 

Tons of chemicals going into your body, some said to cause cancer and have other effects...but it's for the greater good right? Just in case there is a fire- you may or may not be protected by said chemicals. But I am sure there is a ton of science behind these chemicals saving lives and helping people to not catch on fire...

I don't understand your analogy at all.
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#72 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 09:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by sosurreal09 View Post

So I was thinking yesterday since "vaccines are for protection in case you get something/are exposed to something, that may or may not even be deadly" how many of you also put yourselves and your LOs in flame resistant PJ's, make sure the mattresses are flame resistant, all the furniture (couches ect) and rugs?

 

Tons of chemicals going into your body, some said to cause cancer and have other effects...but it's for the greater good right? Just in case there is a fire- you may or may not be protected by said chemicals. But I am sure there is a ton of science behind these chemicals saving lives and helping people to not catch on fire...



I don't understand your analogy at all.


Neither do i...all the furniture we have is pretty new, so it's all under current fire retardant code where appropriate.  I sleep nekkid ;)  I don't understand what that has to do with vaccines at all...?

 

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#73 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 09:45 AM
 
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well, how odd!  we're pro-science and we DON'T vax. 


 

 

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#74 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 09:52 AM
 
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We are selective and delayed vaxxers.  Dd was vaccinated on schedule.  The boys were vaccinated on schedule for DTaP and Polio (Pertussis and Polio scare the crap out of us) and are now being caught up on the regular schedule.  With ds1, we delayed the catch-up until 3 years old, but for ds2, we started at 12 months (last week :))

 

I don't understand the analogy of flame retardants and vaccines.  And yes, my kids wear flame resistance pjs because that's what they sell.  I try and buy cotton cause I prefer that as a fabric, but if my kids want some really cute fleece pjs for the winter, I'll buy them.  Same with the mattresses and furniture (actually the only things in their room that are new are the beds and book cases, all the other furniture were hand me downs from the 70's.)


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#75 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 10:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by GoBecGo View Post




Neither do i...all the furniture we have is pretty new, so it's all under current fire retardant code where appropriate.  I sleep nekkid ;)  I don't understand what that has to do with vaccines at all...?

 

I think I do, although I am not the OP.

 

We do not use flame retardant clothing, even though they might be safer in the case of a fire, because they ( the clothes themselves) are not safe.

 

If you do not think vaccines are safe - either in general or for your kid, you are not going to give them "just in case" the disease comes around. 

 

A certainty (ex: concerns over vaccines or flame retardant clothes) trumps a possibility (fire or VAD)

 

 

 


 

 

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#76 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 10:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by freestylemama View Post

Do those of you who do not vaccinate travel internationally? 



No. International travel does not affect my decision. Other than to be aware that my child could get sick with a disease for which there is a vaccine available. And to plan accordingly.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Ldavis24 View Post






For someone who is not a fan of getting negative a statement like that is really broad and generalized. Why is it that most non-vaxing families tend to be highly educated, affluent and incredibly well read on the subject??

There is evidence you just choose not to see it that way. There is also evidence that vaccines can be a "good" (I can't think of a more appropriate word) thing at times, hence the major issue. There is SCIENCE behind both sides. 

 

Ok, enough for me, I feel like this thread was created with the intent of starting an argument about it and I have better things to do today. I'll go off and be some fool now who just gets scared by the "propaganda" that vaccines are bad. DD is not vaxed and I just don't care what other people think at this point. I guarantee I have put more research into that decision than a lot of the mamas here who vaxed their kids. 



I think we are not going to agree.

 

I was not commenting on educational levels or any stereotype of parents who do not vaccinate. I am just saying there is no real science to support concerns for safety. There are very valid concerns, that need to be addressed IMO. And with high quality science. But so far I have not been able to find convincing evidence that the practice of vaccination is inherently dangerous, in and of itself. I do suspect that it is not as safe as is claimed and that there are children who do not respond predictability and who are injured. The question is how many and by what mechanism.

 

I am not implying there is good science backing the current CDC schedule. But neither is there good science that it is dangerous. There is precious little quality science on either side. And no shortage of opinion, including mine lol.gif

 

 


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#77 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 11:35 AM
 
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Right I am saying vaccines are full of toxins, just like flame retardants. So if you are pro-vax I am wondering if you also take every measure out there the Gov thinks is best for you and your family, such as the use of flame retardants. I know I avoid them like the plague b/c they are unsafe chemicals I do not want in my body or my LOs. Now after years and years of these chemicals being deemed as "safe and necessary" in case you are caught in a fire, they are saying oh snap the chemical we used is causing cancer. Not to mention the chemicals are actually absorbed b/c they found these chemicals in the kidney and bloodwork...

 

So would I douse my body with toxins/chemicals that could have adverse effects just to try and prevent a "what if"?

 

If their was a fire these chemicals would or would not actually help you survive...just like a vax may or may not actually work in your individual body.

 

Does that make sense?


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#78 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 11:53 AM
 
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There is some wonderful insight in this thread! Please avoid negative generalizations about other individuals or groups of individuals as you continue share experiences about how you came to your decision and what suggestions you might have for others.

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#79 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 12:41 PM
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Right I am saying vaccines are full of toxins, just like flame retardants. So if you are pro-vax I am wondering if you also take every measure out there the Gov thinks is best for you and your family, such as the use of flame retardants. I know I avoid them like the plague b/c they are unsafe chemicals I do not want in my body or my LOs. Now after years and years of these chemicals being deemed as "safe and necessary" in case you are caught in a fire, they are saying oh snap the chemical we used is causing cancer. Not to mention the chemicals are actually absorbed b/c they found these chemicals in the kidney and bloodwork...

 

So would I douse my body with toxins/chemicals that could have adverse effects just to try and prevent a "what if"?

 

If their was a fire these chemicals would or would not actually help you survive...just like a vax may or may not actually work in your individual body.

 

Does that make sense?


yes?? Sort of? I think I get what you are saying and put like that I don't see how anybody wouldn't agree with the sentiment in theory.

I do my best to avoid anything harmful or toxic in regard to our family. Vaccines are a part of that, especially multiple injections (that include multiple vaxes in a single injections) in one visit.

We as a society in this country have been told for a long time by the government what is "good" for us and maybe I sound like a conspiracy theorist but I can't listen to someone who tells me, these are great for you! They WILL protect you (we all know vaxes are NOT 100% but somehow that always get left out at the doctor's office), who cares if there has been NO study done on combining multiple vaxes etc...Trust us...Then 20 years down the road when the long term studies are done we will see won't we. In the meantime though, hey do it because we said it's the right thing to do. Then again I am a bit biased against the CDC which is basically an arm of the pharmaceutical lobbies, just like the USDA/FDA are extended arms of Big Agriculture. I sure as bleep don't trust the FDA to tell me everything is "ok", I surprised so many people willingly trust the CDC to tell them it's "ok"...

 

Now that I sound totally nuts I think I will stop.

 

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#80 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 01:10 PM
 
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Yes.  I think they are ruled by a desire to do what they think is best for their kid, but they are not able to differentiate between objective facts and opinions, and they don't know how to weigh risks.  They are lulled into a false sense of security about VPDs because these diseases have been well managed during their lifetime.    

 

I don't really blame them - there is a lot of very convincing misinformation out there.

 

But their decisions are not science-based.  

 


Wow.  

 

I am pro-science, I am quite able to differentiate between objective facts and opinions (thankyouverymuch), and I certainly know how to weigh risks and interpret medical statistics (thanks to taking courses in it for my nursing degree).  We are doing a very delayed and selective schedule, and have not gotten any vaxes yet for our 2.5 year old.  I take it as a patronizing insult that you "don't blame" me for my inability to wrap my poor little head around those super-duper hard science facts and weed out bad information.

 

Some non-vaxers perhaps have not done a very scientific approach to studying their choice to not vax, but the same can be said for plenty of vaxing parents out there.  But, would I say that all parents who vaccinate can't detect the difference between propaganda (of which there is plenty on the pro-vax side as well) and science?  No.


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#81 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 01:50 PM
 
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Right I am saying vaccines are full of toxins, just like flame retardants. So if you are pro-vax I am wondering if you also take every measure out there the Gov thinks is best for you and your family, such as the use of flame retardants. I know I avoid them like the plague b/c they are unsafe chemicals I do not want in my body or my LOs. Now after years and years of these chemicals being deemed as "safe and necessary" in case you are caught in a fire, they are saying oh snap the chemical we used is causing cancer. Not to mention the chemicals are actually absorbed b/c they found these chemicals in the kidney and bloodwork...

 

So would I douse my body with toxins/chemicals that could have adverse effects just to try and prevent a "what if"?

 

If their was a fire these chemicals would or would not actually help you survive...just like a vax may or may not actually work in your individual body.

 

Does that make sense?


It does make sense to an extent.  But my (unfortunately vast) personal experience with cancers and ill health in general is that the toxins might be a small contributing factor.  My mother avoided toxins, ate really well, had two sexual partners (her husband's) her whole life, was HPV NEGATIVE and died of cervical cancer.  The type she had doesn't grow on the sclera and isn't caused by HPV, they still don't know what triggers it there.  It might have been an interaction between the medication she took to prevent her osteopirosis crippling her and the medication she took to stop her heart condition (caused by rheumatic fever she caught in hospital while recovering from scarlet fever) killing her.  We don't know, she's dead now so we'll never know.  Am i ready to believe it was her mattress or her t-shirt or her flu vaccine?  No.  Nothing i have ever read would lead me to believe that.

 

I do not fear death, but i fear illness.  Caring for a terminally ill relative through my teens did that to me.

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#82 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 02:49 PM
 
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Right I am saying vaccines are full of toxins, just like flame retardants. So if you are pro-vax I am wondering if you also take every measure out there the Gov thinks is best for you and your family, such as the use of flame retardants. I know I avoid them like the plague b/c they are unsafe chemicals I do not want in my body or my LOs. Now after years and years of these chemicals being deemed as "safe and necessary" in case you are caught in a fire, they are saying oh snap the chemical we used is causing cancer. Not to mention the chemicals are actually absorbed b/c they found these chemicals in the kidney and bloodwork...

 

So would I douse my body with toxins/chemicals that could have adverse effects just to try and prevent a "what if"?

 

If their was a fire these chemicals would or would not actually help you survive...just like a vax may or may not actually work in your individual body.

 

Does that make sense?


Does that make sense?  I guess.  If you believe that vaccines are chock-full of toxins.  I don't.
 

 

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#83 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 02:55 PM
 
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You may consider them benign.  I don't.  During my residency, we had an excellent ASL translator at our clinic.  Because of this, we had a huge amount of Deaf patients.  Very few were deaf from birth.  Most were deaf from your "benign" diseases, HiB especially.  I also had several patients with congenital rubella syndrome.  Blind (from congenital cataracts), deaf and developmentally disabled.  Yup, sounds like a walk in the park!

 

Thanks, I'll keep vaccinating.

 

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I am curious to know how many of these children who were deaf or developmentally disabled were partially or fully vaccinated before contracting a vaccine associated disease. Was the mom vaccinated for Rubella in the children who had CRS? Were these children well nourished? Did the children get HIB for which there is a vaccinate or another type? All these questions are important in my mind before deciding that vaccines would or would not have protected these particular children.
 



 

None of them were vaccinated for those diseases that caused their illness.  None. I see adults only.  All of these patients were in their 20s or older.  This was more than 10 years ago.  The Hib vaccine was not available until the early 90's, so none of them received it.  The ones with CRS did not have mothers who were vaccinated- the rubella vaccine was not around yet.  As far as their nutritional status- I have no idea.  I have no reason to think it was sub-standard.  They were otherwise in excellent health.  This was New York City, so hardly the third world. I don't think you can blame poor nutrition or poor sanitation for their condition.



 

 

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#85 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 04:03 PM
 
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I have read the research and feel very comfortable with this decision.  Also, as a college student, I studied abroad in a third world country where not everyone had access to vaccinations, so the consequences of a largely unvaccinated society are not abstract to me; I've seen them personally.

 


Yes, this.  Everything changes when you live in a world where there is a very real threat of your child contracting one of these diseases.  We in the U.S. (and Canada) don't live in a world like that.  I believe that's a good thing, and that compulsory vaccination is the reason.

 

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#86 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 04:17 PM
 
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Sorry to post over and over again, but I love a good debate, and I love how listening to what y'all are saying is helping me to clarify my own position for myself.   

 

"We as a society in this country have been told for a long time by the government what is "good" for us and maybe I sound like a conspiracy theorist but I can't listen to someone who tells me, these are great for you! They WILL protect you (we all know vaxes are NOT 100% but somehow that always get left out at the doctor's office)" 

 

See, I don't think they recommend the vaccines to protect "you."  I think they recommend them to protect "us."  I don't think the "science" is there to answer the question of whether or not you should vaccinate your particular child.  I think it's there to answer the overall question of whether or not "we" should vaccinate our children.  That's what I originally meant when I mentioned that I felt that pro-science was kind of an impersonal standpoint. 

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#87 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 04:22 PM
 
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You may consider them benign.  I don't.  During my residency, we had an excellent ASL translator at our clinic.  Because of this, we had a huge amount of Deaf patients.  Very few were deaf from birth.  Most were deaf from your "benign" diseases, HiB especially.  I also had several patients with congenital rubella syndrome.  Blind (from congenital cataracts), deaf and developmentally disabled.  Yup, sounds like a walk in the park!

 

Thanks, I'll keep vaccinating.

 



This is anecdotal and is not science. It is also no different from reports from parents of children who have been harmed or killed by vaccines who then choose not to vaccinate further. If you view you point of view as a valid reason to vax then the opposite is a valid reason not to vaccinate.


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"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

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#88 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 04:28 PM
 
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This is anecdotal and is not science. It is also no different from reports from parents of children who have been harmed or killed by vaccines who then choose not to vaccinate further. If you view you point of view as a valid reason to vax then the opposite is a valid reason not to vaccinate.


Where did I say that this was my reason for vaccinating?  This was a direct response to someone who said that she considers these diseases to be benign.  I am giving an example of why they are not.

 

 

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#89 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 04:45 PM
 
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We vax.  I have had many long and interesting convos w/ my ped, who has seen my children since birth, has 3 of his own and is open and honest during great discussions re the research (including Wakefield and the flawed MMR studies he backed away from)  We've talked in terms of medical journal studies and all of the current research.  I take into account various resources, but ultimately trust the most current med research.

 

BUT - I have friends who do not and I'm equally supportive and understanding of their POVS.  We may differ, but I know all mothers want the best for their children and people come to different conclusions based on their own research.  I may opt for studies published in medical journals, but I understand that people may have heard horrific anecdoctal stories that have persuaded them.  Also, I do know moms whose children have vax reactions, v. scary and would make me think twice if that were our situation.

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#90 of 345 Old 03-14-2011, 04:55 PM
 
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Yes, this.  Everything changes when you live in a world where there is a very real threat of your child contracting one of these diseases.  We in the U.S. (and Canada) don't live in a world like that.  I believe that's a good thing, and that compulsory vaccination is the reason.

 


Could possibly be ONE reason (some will argue otherwise...) but there are likely many reasons, i.e. clean water, improved medical care, better sanitation........

I have spent time in third-world countries as well, but I'm currently living in the US so I make my choices based on that. The risk/benefit analysis is different depending where you live... there are a lot of things that would help people in third-world countries that aren't currently necessary where I live....
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