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#121 of 345 Old 03-15-2011, 09:13 AM
 
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That's what I was going to say, people pre-disposed to autism and the like and even auto-immune disorders should avoid vax b/c it can "trigger" it.



Very respectfully, i don't seek to avoid autism.  "Autistic" feels like "normal" to me, having been raised by an autistic parent and with several other autistic relatives.  I have numerous traits, have an Aspie DP and, if i am honest, somewhat prefer the straightforwardness of those on the autism spectrum to the slightly baffling ways of the neuro typical.  Everyone is different, and for me this isn't a major concern.  In addition i haven't found anything which convinces me that vaccines DO trigger autism.

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#122 of 345 Old 03-15-2011, 10:25 AM
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Very respectfully, i don't seek to avoid autism.  "Autistic" feels like "normal" to me, having been raised by an autistic parent and with several other autistic relatives.  I have numerous traits, have an Aspie DP and, if i am honest, somewhat prefer the straightforwardness of those on the autism spectrum to the slightly baffling ways of the neuro typical.  Everyone is different, and for me this isn't a major concern.  In addition i haven't found anything which convinces me that vaccines DO trigger autism

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I have several aspies in my family and while we often have communication issues, it is generally due to me...

I too have never been concerned with the Autism issue in relation to vaccines. I do believe that vaccines could possibly trigger the beginning of Autism in a child that is already vulnerable to it anyway but it is a flat out CAUSE, I doubt it...I have many many other reasons for not vaxing and I think Autism is maybe 183 on my long list.
 

 

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#123 of 345 Old 03-15-2011, 10:32 AM
 
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Very respectfully, i don't seek to avoid autism.  "Autistic" feels like "normal" to me, having been raised by an autistic parent and with several other autistic relatives.  I have numerous traits, have an Aspie DP and, if i am honest, somewhat prefer the straightforwardness of those on the autism spectrum to the slightly baffling ways of the neuro typical.  Everyone is different, and for me this isn't a major concern.  In addition i haven't found anything which convinces me that vaccines DO trigger autism.


Autism is a spectrum.  It can be mild to incapacitating.

 

My sister has 2 children on the autism spectrum.  They are 9 and 11.  They are nonverbal and in diapers - which they rip off, then pee on things.   Both are flight risks.  One has sleep issues that affects everyone, and is prone to violent tantrums.  The other one is such a sensory seeker that he has made mess after mess after mess.  All their cupboards are locked up because he literally dumps everything out of stuff.  There apartment is locked up like nobodies business.  They almost never leave the house as it is impossalbe to take them places.  Unless something drastic changes, they will never live alone.  It is a hard, hard life and I would not wish it on anyone.

 

I am not convinced vaccines cause autism in genetically susceptible individuals- nor I am not convinced they don't.  I do not think it is a direct causative, but it might play a part.  The rate of autism is rising, therefore it cannot all be genetics - environment must play a role.  Like many others, autism is not my only reason to non vax - given my family history, however, it is probably a stronger reason for me than others. 

 

Moderate and severe autism is more often found in males.  Other neurological issues are more common in and/or more severe in boys as well - ADHD, for example.  I think boys are more fragile for one reason or another.  If I were pregnant with a boy or a new mom with a baby boy, I would definitely read up on ways to keep boys safe - because something is going on.  Here is a link (I saw the documentary on TV and it is fascinating) http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/doczone/2008/disappearingmale/

  

 

 

 

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#124 of 345 Old 03-15-2011, 10:48 AM
 
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Autism is a spectrum.  It can be mild to incapacitating.

 

My sister has 2 children on the autism spectrum.  They are 9 and 11.  They are nonverbal and in diapers - which they rip off, then pee on things.   Both are flight risks.  One has sleep issues that affects everyone, and is prone to violent tantrums.  The other one is such a sensory seeker that he has made mess after mess after mess.  All their cupboards are locked up because he literally dumps everything out of stuff.  There apartment is locked up like nobodies business.  They almost never leave the house as it is impossalbe to take them places.  Unless something drastic changes, they will never live alone.  It is a hard, hard life and I would not wish it on anyone.

 

I am not convinced vaccines cause autism in genetically susceptible individuals- nor I am not convinced they don't.  I do not think it is a direct causative, but it might play a part.  The rate of autism is rising, therefore it cannot all be genetics - environment must play a role.

 

Moderate and severe autism is more often found in males.  Other neurological issues are more common in and/or more severe in boys as well - ADHD, for example.  I think boys are more fragile for one reason or another.  If I were pregnant with a boy or a new mom with a baby boy, I would definitely read up on ways to keep boys safe - because something is going on.  Here is a link (I saw the documentary on TV and it is fascinating) http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/doczone/2008/disappearingmale/

  

 

 

 


I do know about severe autism as well as the high-functioning types which are most common in my family.  I would never frown on another family trying to avoid autism or say they shouldn't do so.  

 

I guess for me the child cannot be separate from the autism.  I would not wish for my father "without autism" because who is that?  Certainly not MY father!  It would be like my childhood friend S "without DS" - it was so so much a part of who she was.  I know her mother was very angry when offered a termination, having had a brother with DS, when she was found to be very likely to be carrying a baby with DS herself.  

 

If it became known that the autism was in the very fabric of the person, in the Y chromosome, would people still seek to avoid it, knowing in doing so they were avoiding the people who would have come with it?

 

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#125 of 345 Old 03-15-2011, 10:51 AM
 
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In respect to the issue of privilege and medicine:

Over-exploited nations (please read: not "underdeveloped") are impoverished and sick because they are over-exploited by corporations like those that profit from immunizations. They live in dirty hell-holes with toxic water because interests directly from rich nations like mine perpetuate that and gain from it. I think that there are a million, billion, trillion better uses of my privilege then to inject my child with a vaccine just because it is offered to me, the true repercussions which are not being explained in the drug pamphlet. Not even close. I'll choose to exercise the privilege of a relatively healthy living environment and exposure to issues of nutrition and natural well-being. Indigenous people had these resources, too. They used them with great wisdom and success until "first world" profiteers came into their lives and saw money. These people were, for the most part, perfectly healthy until their environments were destroyed, their resources apprehended and their labor exploited (slave trade, anyone?). Their poverty/illness is, in significant part, a result of the system from which these immunizations are produced. Illness and poverty in certain regions does not happen by accident, and it will not be cured by western medical science. It will, if ever, only be cured by a serious analysis of the issues, without the interference of lobbying. I do respect the individual choices of each family, but I really don't like it when people run around with the delusion that everything comes at surface value. Forgive me, but suggesting that western, chemical immunizations are a perfect (albeit tragically inaccessible) consequence-free solution to people in impoverished regions is, though truly well-meaning, an insult to science, and insult to history, and an insult to the true medicine of indigenous cultures that were literally bought out by our own. And yet, people in these locales will line up for the "privilege" of the injection, and we are inundated with feel-good messages, singing the praises of those who make them. People accept these "gifts" of the wealthy rich, all too-often singing their praises, because they were made utterly destitute and feel that they no longer have a choice.

 

We need real solutions to our health and the prevention of disease, that aren't attached to CEO's.

 

Just saying.

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#126 of 345 Old 03-15-2011, 10:57 AM
 
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Our first received the HiB series while I was finishing my research into vaccines and my family's medical history, and then we stopped vaccinating. Our second hasn't received any vaccines. Overall, I see their potential value, but given my history with vaccines and immunological issues, and not knowing how genetics would play into our children's reactions, we decided not to vax any further. Our doctor agreed with us and actually raised the question when she asked about dh's and my vax histories.

 

I'm open to the idea of selectively vaccinating as the kids get older, but it will be done slowly and with time between each series so we can clearly evaluate any issues that arise.

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#127 of 345 Old 03-15-2011, 11:01 AM
 
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Our first received the HiB series while I was finishing my research into vaccines and my family's medical history, and then we stopped vaccinating. Our second hasn't received any vaccines. Overall, I see their potential value, but given my history with vaccines and immunological issues, and not knowing how genetics would play into our children's reactions, we decided not to vax any further. Our doctor agreed with us and actually raised the question when she asked about dh's and my vax histories.

 

I'm open to the idea of selectively vaccinating as the kids get older, but it will be done slowly and with time between each series so we can clearly evaluate any issues that arise.


See this is precisely what i mean about it being far from a straightforward issue with blanket answers - your doctor ROCKS and i'm so glad you were able to make a decision which, given YOUR history, is most likely to keep your kids safe.  Everyone needs a doctor this good!  Vaccines aren't safe for everyone, or dangerous for everyone, that's why i really think everyone needs to choose for their own family and NOT be forced either way.

 

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#128 of 345 Old 03-15-2011, 01:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by habitat View Post

In respect to the issue of privilege and medicine:

Over-exploited nations (please read: not "underdeveloped") are impoverished and sick because they are over-exploited by corporations like those that profit from immunizations. They live in dirty hell-holes with toxic water because interests directly from rich nations like mine perpetuate that and gain from it. I think that there are a million, billion, trillion better uses of my privilege then to inject my child with a vaccine just because it is offered to me, the true repercussions which are not being explained in the drug pamphlet. Not even close. I'll choose to exercise the privilege of a relatively healthy living environment and exposure to issues of nutrition and natural well-being. Indigenous people had these resources, too. They used them with great wisdom and success until "first world" profiteers came into their lives and saw money. These people were, for the most part, perfectly healthy until their environments were destroyed, their resources apprehended and their labor exploited (slave trade, anyone?). Their poverty/illness is, in significant part, a result of the system from which these immunizations are produced. Illness and poverty in certain regions does not happen by accident, and it will not be cured by western medical science. It will, if ever, only be cured by a serious analysis of the issues, without the interference of lobbying. I do respect the individual choices of each family, but I really don't like it when people run around with the delusion that everything comes at surface value. Forgive me, but suggesting that western, chemical immunizations are a perfect (albeit tragically inaccessible) consequence-free solution to people in impoverished regions is, though truly well-meaning, an insult to science, and insult to history, and an insult to the true medicine of indigenous cultures that were literally bought out by our own. And yet, people in these locales will line up for the "privilege" of the injection, and we are inundated with feel-good messages, singing the praises of those who make them. People accept these "gifts" of the wealthy rich, all too-often singing their praises, because they were made utterly destitute and feel that they no longer have a choice.

 

We need real solutions to our health and the prevention of disease, that aren't attached to CEO's.

 

Just saying.


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#129 of 345 Old 03-15-2011, 03:36 PM
 
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We don't vaccinate.  Our first two started out on the vaccine schedule, then we were selective and the last (4th ) baby has had none.  My reasons aren't really autism, although I admit that I've always been slightly concerned due to autism in my family.  I'm mostly concerned with safety and the conflicts of interest between gov't and pharma. I'm pro-science as well, but I don't think any science has been really done on the long-term safety of vaccines.

 

My advice would be to space vaccines out if you want to vaccinate. I know of doctors who have Saturday vaccination clinics so that you can come in and do one at a time without having to stick to the appointment schedule.  Look into the vaccines that have the least reactivity.   We were considering the Dtap awhile back and I looked into the different types of dtap available and which ones were reported to be the safest, then I called and made sure that one was available.  Maybe it wouldn't have mattered, but I wanted to be sure that I did what I could to ensure safety.  We ended up not doing it though. 

 

Whether you vaccinate or not, be open to changing depending on what you know...and feel. 

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Bomer, I have trouble understanding this particular POV. There are efficacy studies for each vax that is marketed, plus post-marketing studies. How did you come to this understanding? 


I'm so sleep deprived at the moment, I don't even know where to begin.  Looking on the charts from back when vaccines were introduced, there really is no proof that they had ever worked.  On the contrary, there may have been more cases of certain diseases.  More boosters are sometimes added to the schedule, to make vaccines 'more effective'.  Why?  Because they aren't?  If vaccines are effective, why are there still some vpds in vaccinated individuals?  When you're vaccinated, you're protected, right?   


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#131 of 345 Old 03-16-2011, 05:06 AM
 
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This old article popped up on my news feed on Facebook today.  Another reason why blindly believing science isn't the best idea. 

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#132 of 345 Old 03-16-2011, 05:54 AM
 
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Mine are vaxed. I delayed DD1 for a year, because I was still learning-- we got only DTaP during that time. Then we caught her up later, so that by 5 she'd had all of the ones required for school entrance here. The twins have had everything on schedule except hep B and varicella. We'll get those before they go to kindy. The only vax they never had was the rotavirus one-- DD1 was too old for it by the time we decided to vax, and with the twins we had a medical contraindication.

I do refuse injectable flu vaccines. The kids have had the nasal flu vax the last few years.

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#133 of 345 Old 03-16-2011, 12:21 PM
 
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No. No vaccine works in 100% of the people who get it 100% of the time. This is assumed, as it would be for any product. Sure, vaccine immunity is known to wane over time. And yes, boosters are used in an effort to improve immunity for the most number of people through a repeat exposure. But to suggest that vaccines flat-out "don't work" seems to be pretty divorced from reality. 

 

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I'm so sleep deprived at the moment, I don't even know where to begin.  Looking on the charts from back when vaccines were introduced, there really is no proof that they had ever worked.  On the contrary, there may have been more cases of certain diseases.  More boosters are sometimes added to the schedule, to make vaccines 'more effective'.  Why?  Because they aren't?  If vaccines are effective, why are there still some vpds in vaccinated individuals?  When you're vaccinated, you're protected, right?   



 


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#134 of 345 Old 03-16-2011, 12:22 PM
 
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you can easily check the impact factor of a journal if they haven't heard of it, suburbanhippy. it makes a lot more sense to do that than to assume all scientific articles can't be trusted.

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We vaccinate on a selective/delayed schedule. We started vaccinations when DS was 6 months, we only do one shot per visit, and have skipped rotavirus, the flu shot, hep A & B and chickenpox.

 

 


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#136 of 345 Old 03-16-2011, 01:22 PM
 
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you can easily check the impact factor of a journal if they haven't heard of it, suburbanhippy. it makes a lot more sense to do that than to assume all scientific articles can't be trusted.



 Im not suggesting ALL scientific studies cannot be trusted - but just because something is published in a highly regarded peer reviewed journal doesn't automatically mean the study is trustworthy either. Medical fraud is a reality and seems to be happening with more frequency.

According to a July 2005 report by the Assiciated press allegations of misconduct by researchers in the USA reached record highs in 2004, with the department of Health and Human Services receiving 274 complaints -- the most the department has received in one year since the federal government first established a program to deal with scientific misconduct in 1989. However, because of staff and funding shortfalls, the federal Office of Research Integrity closed only 23 of those complaints, with just eight individuals found guilty.  

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#137 of 345 Old 03-16-2011, 03:46 PM
 
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We fall somewhere in the middle on this. I have an almost 6 mo little one and spent many hours researching and agonizing over this decision. If we keep to the plan we've decided on we'll have done DTAP at 2, 4 , 6 mo's and HIB at 5, 7, 9 months and we'll probably catch up IPV, MMR?, Hep closer to school age or beyond. We feel like we're protecting from some of the life-threatening things and taking our chances on some of the things she's unlikely to get. I know this is a controversial, near and dear to the heart issue. 

I read so many things but one of the best books I read was "The Vaccine Book" by Dr. Sears. I feel this did a very good job presenting the info in a non-biased way to help you make the decision that's best for you and your family. 

Good luck. 

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#138 of 345 Old 03-16-2011, 10:44 PM
 
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I'm pro-science.  We vax.

 

 

I'm pro-science too and I dont, because I think its bad science.
 

 


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#139 of 345 Old 03-17-2011, 05:42 AM
 
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Vaccination has lessened the impact of the diseases on our society?

 

Fact: the diseases were in decline before vaccination was implemented. And not just a little decline, massive decline.  Here is a chart, if you want the data instead of a chart, so it is more “scientific”, just let me know: http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/40874_451441187808_613002808_5195233_6148957_n.jpg

 

Vaccines are safe and do not contain toxic material?

 

Fact: Vaccines contain toxins, some of which are so unsafe, they are being systematically removed or lessened in the vaccines... most of them are left in the vaccines due to the “scientific” opinion that there is such a thing as an acceptable dose of toxin, ie, if it doesn't show immediate harm in the majority of participants in our clinical trials, then it's ok.  And if you believe that rationale, good for you.

 

Note: For those who think vaccines are not full of toxins, I ask: what do you think they are full of? A vaccine's very modus operandi demands it contains the disease it is aiming to treat as an effort to stimulate the body's immunity against that disease. Even if it only contained that one ingredient, it's very foundation is toxin and disease. Unfortunately, it is full of other things, none of which is “good” for you, some of which is benign unless allergic, and some of which is classified as a poison or toxin if swallowed or injected directly into a vein. Here is the gov page with the list of ingredients: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/additives.htm

 

More info on each: http://www.novaccine.com/vaccine-ingredients/

 

Note: Some of us may believe mercury, aluminium, formaldehyde, denatured proteins... to name a few... are not toxic, however that is poorly researched opinion, incorrect, and unscientific.  That vulnerable babies are fighting this off is a testament to the miracle of human physiology, not to the safety of vaccines. 

 

 

The vaccinated are more protected than the un-vaccinated?

 

Fact: in three outbreaks I have experienced personally, just as many people vaxed got the disease as unvaxed (per capita). Plus, my niece ended up hospitalised (fully vaxed) when apparently vaccination is meant to make the disease less severe when the vax does fail to fully protect.

 

The un-vaccinated are responsible for keeping the diseases circulating, we all have a duty to vaccinate to eventually eradicate these diseases?

 

Fact: See previous fact.

 

Science shmience.  My degree is in health science and I've been studying this subject for 17 years and the science is dodgy, at best.  But it is given by the government and the AMA so I agree the "science" comes with pedigree.  Me, I prefer mutts.


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#140 of 345 Old 03-17-2011, 05:45 AM
 
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i know the conspiracy theorists will dismiss this review but i found it to be helpful.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14654615

 

 

 


Macy, that was done in 2003.  This is a perfect example of why the science is too premature yet to trust on our children.  For example, mercury was taken out of vaccines since that report.

 


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#141 of 345 Old 03-17-2011, 05:49 AM
 
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What a parent should be doing is weighing up the long term risks of not vaxing vs the long term risks of vaxing. Instead, parents are weighing up the perceived short term reaction risks vs perceived long term protective benefits.  I personally would like a long term study done on the vaccinated and their adult health and longevity compared to those who were not vaccinated. 

 

 

In my work, and life, I have seen enough evidence to suggest there is more to the risks of vaccinating than immediate death or brain damage (both of which carry similar risk levels as the diseases themselves - very low). And really... logically... how could there not be long term ramifications? If there is long term immune effect, there is long term effect, period. 

 

One day, someone will get the finance and desire for this kind of study and I for one think it will shine the brightest light on this subject, particularly to parents like those who go to this forum. Most mothers, especially attachment mothers, are concerned with the long term repercussions of their actions and decisions upon their children. We avoid hitting for instance, due to the extent of harm this can do. We don't need science for that, we trust our logic and instincts that yes, hitting young people is probably going to inflict long term issues. We worry what they eat, what they are exposed to, etc, as to how this will affect them for the rest of their lives, not just in this moment.

 

I have no stats at this time, but I believe without a shred of doubt that some time in the future a study will be done that shows the cells were struggling much harder under the strain of the cocktail of poison in those injections. Future parents will have a bigger pool of information to go through, more long term things to consider. We don't have that benefit yet, but our children might, when they are making this decision.

 

My parents were not vaccinated and they did not vax me and I did not vax my kids. None of us get sick, mum tells me I didn't get sick as a kid either... we are always the ones looking after everyone else who gets sick with contagion or whatever. I wonder if there is a correlation, as even that would be a difficult thing to survey, considering how few of us there are, esp with a completely unvaxed family bloodline such as my own.

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#142 of 345 Old 03-17-2011, 07:58 AM
 
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Actually, mercury (thimerisol) was taken out of many childhood vaccines in 2001, two years before that report. Thimerisol is still an ingredient in some vaccines, including the flu shot. But, like that study is one example of, it has been found to not be a cause of harm.

 

Fact: the dose makes the poison. I'm sorry if that sounds like it's ridiculous to you, but it's not really up for debate. It just is, in the true essence of the word, a fact. For example, if you ingested a gallon of formaldehyde it would probably be detrimental to your health. However, your body naturally makes a much smaller amount of formaldehyde every day that is essential to keeping you in good health. Similarly, you need water to survive. But if you drink too much of it at once you will die.

 

Fact: when vaccination uptake rates go down, the amount of the circulating disease goes up. I would be happy to provide you with numerous examples, if you'd like, about how when people stop vaccinating there are marked and obvious increases in outbreaks of that disease. It's not a coincidence, it's proof of the efficacy of vaccination.

 

Fact: both vaccine-acquired immunity and natural immunity require "boosters" to be a continued protection.

 

Fact: vaccines do not contain viral or bacterial toxins, they contain toxoids. I know they sound the same, but I suspect that if you understood the science as well as you think you do, you would realize how significant their differences are. Vaccinations contain a few toxoids. The diseases they prevent introduce thousands or millions of toxins into the body.
 

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Macy, that was done in 2003.  This is a perfect example of why the science is too premature yet to trust on our children.  For example, mercury was taken out of vaccines since that report.

 



 

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#143 of 345 Old 03-17-2011, 08:04 AM
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...double post

 

 

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#144 of 345 Old 03-17-2011, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heathergirl67 View Post


Actually, mercury (thimerisol) was taken out of many childhood vaccines in 2001, two years before that report. Thimerisol is still an ingredient in some vaccines, including the flu shot. But, like that study is one example of, it has been found to not be a cause of harm.

 

Fact: the dose makes the poison. I'm sorry if that sounds like it's ridiculous to you, but it's not really up for debate. It just is, in the true essence of the word, a fact. For example, if you ingested a gallon of formaldehyde it would probably be detrimental to your health. However, your body naturally makes a much smaller amount of formaldehyde every day that is essential to keeping you in good health. Similarly, you need water to survive. But if you drink too much of it at once you will die.

 

Fact: when vaccination uptake rates go down, the amount of the circulating disease goes up. I would be happy to provide you with numerous examples, if you'd like, about how when people stop vaccinating there are marked and obvious increases in outbreaks of that disease. It's not a coincidence, it's proof of the efficacy of vaccination.

 

Fact: both vaccine-acquired immunity and natural immunity require "boosters" to be a continued protection.

 

Fact: vaccines do not contain viral or bacterial toxins, they contain toxoids. I know they sound the same, but I suspect that if you understood the science as well as you think you do, you would realize how significant their differences are. Vaccinations contain a few toxoids. The diseases they prevent introduce thousands or millions of toxins into the body.
 



 



ironically it is generally the vaccinated people getting ill and transmitting the disease.

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#145 of 345 Old 03-17-2011, 08:07 AM
 
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thimerisol was only taken out of most vaccines because certain segments of the public were paranoid about it, not because of any evidence that thimerisol was actually harmful. the review is still very relevant.

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#146 of 345 Old 03-17-2011, 08:13 AM
 
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Quote:
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ironically it is generally the vaccinated people getting ill and transmitting the disease.


most people are vaccinated so yes most people who get sick will be vaccinated people, but only because there are more of them. hope that makes sense. at least when vaccinated people get a VPD it's generally milder and less likely to result in hospitalization. that's why i vaccinate - not because i'm afraid my child will die of a VPD but because i want to avoid hospitalization due to sickness.

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#147 of 345 Old 03-17-2011, 08:28 AM
 
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wave.gif Heather.

 

I am surprised at your tone to the PP.

 

Of course there is a difference between a toxoid and a toxin. Pertussis, Diphtheria and Tetanus have toxoids. Aluminum and Mercury are neuro-toxins. And yes, they are both in vaccines.

 

Just recently there was a study in Australia that found higher levels of Hg in the vaccine vial than the manufacturer claimed. Which would certainly make me suspicious of claims that the mercury has been filtered out and it's nothing to worry about.

 

Thimerasol (injected ethyl mercury) has not been deemed safe in any dose by any high quality science. The studies that support such a claim are quite seriously flawed.

 

The claim that vaccines impact circulating disease full stop is problematic.I don't have the time to go into the specifics now, but yeah, it is not quite so simple as introduce vaccine and eliminate the disease. Each disease/vaccine has different issues.


Megan, mama to her little boy (Feb2008) and introducing our little girl (Dec 2010)
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#148 of 345 Old 03-17-2011, 09:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heathergirl67 View Post


 

 

Fact: vaccines do not contain viral or bacterial toxins, they contain toxoids. I know they sound the same, but I suspect that if you understood the science as well as you think you do, you would realize how significant their differences are. Vaccinations contain a few toxoids. The diseases they prevent introduce thousands or millions of toxins into the body.
 



 


Ouch.  Tone.  

 

Here is a proposal:

 

How about I assume that that not all vaxers are simply going along with their doctors position (like sheep); and vaxers assume that non vaxers have as much of an understanding of science as the rest of society?

 

 

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#149 of 345 Old 03-17-2011, 09:51 AM
 
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nm

 

 

 

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#150 of 345 Old 03-17-2011, 10:00 AM
 
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its hard to assume that all non-vaxers understand science when you can come here and read about people being afraid of things like "foreign dna".

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