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Old 03-17-2011, 07:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Calm View Post

But hell, what would I know?  I'm just a gullible unscientific conspiracy theorist .... if you want me, I'm the one over here packing supplies for the 2012 rapture with the tin foil hat on.   


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OT...but I think you write beautifully, Calm....

 

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Old 03-17-2011, 07:19 PM
 
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I do question the basic dismissal of trusting one's doctor as being an educated decision in and of itself, though. It is really a failing of the anti-vax movement that its most easily accessed public face is one heavily made up of emotional appeals, conspiracy theories, wholesale rejections of 'western medicine,' genuinely anti-science individuals, highly questionable public and pop culture figures, demonstrated inabilities to accurately read scientific literature, etc.


There are failings on both sides of the debate.  The fact that I often feel like the vaccine establishment is telling me not to worry my pretty little head any time I bring up concerns (ooohh... and that apparently most people who do not vaccinate are lunatic fringe) does nothing for the pro-vax side.  I hate being patronised.

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Old 03-17-2011, 08:37 PM
 
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Old 03-18-2011, 06:06 AM
 
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In some ways I regret wasting my time reading up on vaccines. I spent more time learning about vaccines than I spent studying for some of my college courses, and for what? In the end I came to the conclusion that I was just going to follow my doctor's recommendations for the most part so I might have been better off using that time to learn about something more interesting or useful instead. I don't think there's anything wrong with not always trying to be educated on all topics and instead asking experts for their expert opinions, and I don't think you have to get a degree in immunology to be a good mom. But, if you are going to go against the experts then it helps if you really do have a strong background in science, at least strong enough not to automatically get scared just by terms like "toxins", "formaldehyde" and "foreign dna". I am certain there are people who don't vax for their own valid reasons and if I met someone IRL who said they didn't vax I wouldn't judge them for it or give their decision much thought (their kids will most likely be just as healthy as mine), but I think there are also those who are just afraid of vaccines because they don't really understand them and that's unfortunate.

In some ways I am angry that after investing 3 years in extensive reading on the topic I am left with very little actual information on which to base my decision. But then again, three years ago I was really angry for being told I was too stupid to make the choice and I should just do what the doctors told me to do. I chased down the articles given as evidence of harm from vaccines. I looked up the claims made supporting the triumph of vaccines. And at the end of the day, not much can be said by either side. It is an incredibly 'noisy' topic with a lot at stake. The health of children is going to be a volatile subject no matter what your position is. I came to the conclusion that there is cause for concern, but nothing conclusive.

 

Anyway, I can relate to you feeling like it is a waste of time and frustrating to feel the need to figure it out on your own when there is just so much rhetoric and reading involved.
 

 



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Originally Posted by Ldavis24 View Post

it is equally hard to believe all vaxers are educated on the topic when they say things like "well I trust a doctor more than things I've read" or



Let me rephrase that: I trust certain resources above others, based upon their fuller education, access to full studies and journal articles as opposed to abstracts, demonstrated ability to accurately read and weigh studies' impact, demonstrated ability to weigh the relative value of sources of information, etc, etc. Therefore I do trust my doctor, who has demonstrated these things, more than I trust almost all lay ideological non-vaxers I have encountered and a fair majority of the available writing on the subject.

I do question the basic dismissal of trusting one's doctor as being an educated decision in and of itself, though. It is really a failing of the anti-vax movement that its most easily accessed public face is one heavily made up of emotional appeals, conspiracy theories, wholesale rejections of 'western medicine,' genuinely anti-science individuals, highly questionable public and pop culture figures, demonstrated inabilities to accurately read scientific literature, etc. I have encountered people making anti-vax arguments who do not fit this definition, but they have been a sharp minority compared to a great deal of what is being circulated, and when the bulk of the public face of an argument is so blatantly unscientific it absolutely is an educated decision to better trust medically trained personnel on the subject of disease and disease prevention. In short: legitimately science-minded anti-vaxers either need better PR, or to otherwise learn how to speak louder than their own (rather wide) fringe.

I completely agree that the anti-vax movement or vaccine critical movement are hopelessly all over the place. And I am resentful of the hysterical nature of some of the claims. I took the time to look into them, and it was annoying to discover that essentially I was at a dead end. Although you do not have to be anti vax to be hysterical. Some of the advocates for mandatory universal vaccines have some pretty weak arguments to support their position and rely heavily on emotional manipulation and hysterical language.

 

Dismissing your doctors advice is not in and of itself an educated decision. There would need to be an actual education involved to make it an educated decision.

 

I have come to the conclusion that no one actually knows very much. It is impossible to do a risk benefit analysis with each disease and each vaccine or the whole vaccine schedule with the information that is available today. There is a lot of information regarding the risks of natural infection and the benefits of the vaccines. There is not very much known about the risks of the vaccines or the benefits of natural infection. Essentially it is a faith based decision. And people put their faith in different things. 

 

I personally do not have much faith in the decision makers regarding their risk benefit analysis. That is my call. I have read enough to know that we are stumbling in the dark when it comes to vaccines and the vaccine schedule. And the immune system with it's development and support. And the interplay between pathogens and our environment, with our  manipulation of them often having very surprising effects.

 

 


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Old 03-18-2011, 08:52 AM
 
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I found plenty of articles listed on pubmed and I didn't feel like there wasn't enough information out there regarding the issues I was concerned about. What specifically were you concerned about?

 

This is not directed at you because it sounds like you have done a lot of reading, not just online, but I often wonder how those people without access to full-text articles get educated on this subject.
 

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In some ways I am angry that after investing 3 years in extensive reading on the topic I am left with very little actual information on which to base my decision.

 

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Old 03-18-2011, 10:10 AM
 
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I've also done years of research which supports vaccines. 99% of the "information" I've found that is anti-vax is fear based and has no backing what so ever.

 

Its a lot of "the world is out get us" stuff and really doesn't help and in fact makes people shake their head and dismiss non-vaxers because of it. Sure there are a few who have had bad experiences, after all it does happen, but the risks are not as high as many non-vaxers want us to think. Yes there is things in vaxes that on the surface are questionable, but then when you trully look into it they're not as high as its made out to be, and many of them are found in much higher doeses in other sorces, including the human body. These VPD are not a walk in the park and not benign as some seem to think.

 

We live in a world free of these VPD because of the vaxes. Sure there are other factors that help. Anyone who says that they would be gone without vaccines, like small pox, needs to reeducate themselves pronto. I for one have no desire to return to a world where half the children didn't make it to adulthood in part because of VPD. Thats not fear thats logic. Why would I want my child, or any child, to suffer when they don't have to?

 

We'll continue to vaccinate. We're also Canadian and we do have a different schedual then the US.

 

Very few people in the developed world trully know what its like to live in a world without vaccines, where these VPD still kill thousands of people a year. I remember the anger when Pampers did there one pack one vaccine campaign and people were angry that we dared give these children and moms a tetnus vaccine. Something killing millions of moms and babies. Something they have no way of ever getting on their own. Just because we have medical care, and sanitation and our risks of tetnus are extreamly low, doesn't mean that other parts of the world don't have a very high risk. The anger suprised and shocked me. People would rather these babies die then get a vaccine? because really that was their choices.

 

Things like that don't help the anti-vax cause.


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Old 03-18-2011, 10:18 AM
 
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Yes there is absolutely no shortage of articles on pubmed, and it is in part due to those articles that I was able to figure out the extent to which vaccines and the vaccine schedule are an unknown at this time.

 

In brief, I am concerned about injected Aluminum. Injected Mercury. Serotype replacement. Shifting epidemiology. Combining live viruses in vaccines. Marketing of vaccines. Legal issues surrounding vaccines.

 

None of this is to say faint.gif Run and hide, don't let them prick you with that syringe. But I do think there are a number of important questions that are as of yet unanswered. I have no doubt that science will get there. Although not in time for me making these decisions today.

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Originally Posted by macy View Post

 

I found plenty of articles listed on pubmed and I didn't feel like there wasn't enough information out there regarding the issues I was concerned about. What specifically were you concerned about?

 

This is not directed at you because it sounds like you have done a lot of reading, not just online, but I often wonder how those people without access to full-text articles get educated on this subject.
 



 


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Old 03-18-2011, 10:37 AM
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I've also done years of research which supports vaccines. 99% of the "information" I've found that is anti-vax is fear based and has no backing what so ever.

 

Its a lot of "the world is out get us" stuff and really doesn't help and in fact makes people shake their head and dismiss non-vaxers because of it. Sure there are a few who have had bad experiences, after all it does happen, but the risks are not as high as many non-vaxers want us to think. Yes there is things in vaxes that on the surface are questionable, but then when you trully look into it they're not as high as its made out to be, and many of them are found in much higher doeses in other sorces, including the human body. These VPD are not a walk in the park and not benign as some seem to think.

 

We live in a world free of these VPD because of the vaxes. Sure there are other factors that help. Anyone who says that they would be gone without vaccines, like small pox, needs to reeducate themselves pronto. I for one have no desire to return to a world where half the children didn't make it to adulthood in part because of VPD. Thats not fear thats logic. Why would I want my child, or any child, to suffer when they don't have to?

 

We'll continue to vaccinate. We're also Canadian and we do have a different schedual then the US.

 

Very few people in the developed world trully know what its like to live in a world without vaccines, where these VPD still kill thousands of people a year. I remember the anger when Pampers did there one pack one vaccine campaign and people were angry that we dared give these children and moms a tetnus vaccine. Something killing millions of moms and babies. Something they have no way of ever getting on their own. Just because we have medical care, and sanitation and our risks of tetnus are extreamly low, doesn't mean that other parts of the world don't have a very high risk. The anger suprised and shocked me. People would rather these babies die then get a vaccine? because really that was their choices.

 

Things like that don't help the anti-vax cause.


Am I the only person getting tired of being told my decisions are purely "fear based", "emotional" "the world is out to get me" because I don't vax. Because truly there could not be any possibility that I have read actual facts and actually understood them and decided based on all that I have read that I don't want to vax my kid...No clearly I must just listen to Jenny Mccarthy and her loudspeaker...Then again those who do decide to vax aren't making decisions based on emotions, or fear (ahem what about the fear of getting the disease?!) and they are smart enough to use logic and not be swayed by paranoia...I find this whole line of thought incredibly insulting. For all anyone knows here I could have a doctorate in epidemiology but I imagine I would still be labeled as not well read enough or whatever...

 

At some point people who vax their kids need to stop trying to tell the rest of us we are paranoid and just nutty. We are as smart as you, we read as much as you, we care about our kids as much as you and we came to a different conclusion. Why is that so hard to accept? I am not out in the world telling people who vax their kids that their decisions are fear based and incorrect but for some reason I am told that all the time by the vaxing crowd. I cannot stand this double standard.

 

Further we do not "live in a world free of these disease because of vaccines" There is so much more at play than vaccines in regard to disease transmission, mortality etc. Please research this more before making such a blanket statement...

 

Finally I feel like this thread has devolved into a place where people who vax their kids are here to tell me why I made the wrong decision, I couldn't possibly be educated enough on topic to disagree with my pediatrician. It is not educated to disagree with your doctor based simply on the fact I don't have a formal education in medicine and finally that old favorite, I am only not vaxing based on fear and emotion. The ultimate trump card of the vax crowd, belittle people by telling everyone they are only being "emotional".

 

I don't understand why people even come here to rail against those who don't vax. The main question of this thread was DO YOU VAX....not if you vax please tell us why everyone else is wrong. I don't care if someone wants to vax their kid, more power to you! Please stop caring if I don't vax mine. 

 

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Old 03-18-2011, 10:55 AM
 
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So, when I started reading this thread, I was just going to post "I am pro-science.  I DO NOT vaccinate."  I've been reading posts for the last almost-two-hours, now, though.  Initially I just kept getting angrier at all the derogatory remarks about non-vaxers, and then eventually I just got sick of it.  Since I got all the way through, though, I'm going to put my two cents in.  Darnit.

 

FIRST:

I was surprised, though I suppose I shouldn't be, at the highly insulting and degrading generalizations made in this thread, mostly by the "pro-vax" crowd.  These are things I would expect to read on a mainstream board; I guess I just hold MDC posters to a higher standard, though I guess maybe I shouldn't.  I know that a high percentage of MDC subscribers are statistically over-educated, or at least learned (I read that in an editorial many months ago), and therefore able to read and interpret research to at least a reasonable degree.  I assume that most of us are naturalistic, in thinking if not always practice, and that we are all pro-breastfeeding and attachment-style parenting.  I am certain that we are all interested in doing the absolute best we can for our children.  So what's with the insults here?

 

I beg your pardon, but most of us on this board are well-educated, intelligent, and well-researched.  I graduated magna cum laude with a B.S.  I designed, implemented, and defended a Master's research project, and graduated with a 4.0.  I think I can read and interpret journal articles and research papers about vaccines.  I'm sure most of the moms here on both sides of this debate are at least as intelligent and a lot are even better-educated than I (although I am not presuming to equate education with intelligence here).  I would hope that we all can act like mature adults here and have a little respect for each others' opinions (as the topic indicates, these are opinions we're discussing here). 

 

SECOND:
When discussing our opinions about a topic and our reasons and motivations behind making a decision that is controversial (at least on this board, if not elsewhere), let's keep it to just that:  our own though processes and motivations, rather than speculating on the motivations and reasoning abilities of others, especially another group of people who is well-represented on this board, and this thread in particular.  It is immature, inconsiderate, and unwise to say things like "hey are not able to differentiate between objective facts and opinions, and they don't know how to weigh risks" and "their decisions are not science-based." I know there were other instances of similar insults, but I'll just leave it with this one.

 

FINALLY:

My husband and I didn't question vaxes when our oldest son was born other than to defer the Hep B until his well-child visit.  He is fully vaxed up to age 3 (he's 5 now), but hasn't had any since then.  We wised up at that point, though, and decided we would do the "delayed and selective" thing.  That was really just a way to give me time to do adequate research.  As it turns out, it wasn't really adequate time.  As PP have said, there is tons of research, but a lot of it is garbage, more of it is questionable, whether methods, conclusions, or funding, and honestly I don't think the rest of it is sufficient to make a clear cut, homerun decision one way or the other.  As has been mentioned by numerous PPs, I would really like to see some long term studies using non-vaxed controls, with researchers who have looked up the definition of the word "placebo", and funded by someone who is not tied in any way shape or form to the pharmaceutical companies.  I'm not a conspiracy nut (well, I don't think so), but I'm not blind either.  I see how much $$ is at stake, and how the pharmaceutical companies have their hands in EVERY cookie jar.  But in the end, it comes down to our own decisions as parents based on the research we have done, our own soul searching, and our own individual situations.  I am certainly not "anti-vax".  Although others disagree, if we were to move overseas, I would be the first in line to get my children vaccinated against the diseases we would be at risk of catching (depending on location, etc.).  However, in this place and time, we are at very low risk of contracting any serious illnesses, or if contracted, of having particularly severe complications.  We are solid middle class with good healthcare, live in an area with relatively few immigrants, don't work with any "at-risk" populations, I breastfed DS1 for 2.5 years, and am still BFing DS2, we are all in good general health, and practice hygiene and sanitation.  As PP have said, it is a privilege not to have to vax, and one I thank all the previous (and current) generations of vaxers for, just as I thank my great great grandparents for the freedom to worship and live as I choose.  Therefore, I just don't see how it benefits us to risk putting toxins (yes, toxins) in my tiny children's bodies to prevent something I think is highly unlikely to occur. 

 

One last point, though.  I have always questioned authority, and so have never blindly followed any doctor's opinion any more than I do anyone else.  They are highly educated and should be trusted to diagnose and treat illness, I agree, but they are human, and are subject to the same influences as the rest of us.  I stopped even listening to our last pediatrician, though, when he openly questioned my motivations and interest as a mother when I questioned DS's last round of vaccines.  He actually said that he had my son's best interest at heart, and that I should therefore just trust him regardless of anything I've read.  Our current doc, fortunately, only browbeats a little about the "dead babies" due to VPD (none of whom she has actually seen herself, she admits).  But when I mentioned that I was concerned about the formaldehyde in DTaP, she was surprised there was formaldehyde in it!  As PP said, and patient advocates will tell you, YOU are your own best advocate.  You have to put anything you hear through your own litmus test and see if it checks out.  Each family is unique, and each child more so.  There is no "one size fits all" answer to most questions, certainly not when it comes to health and wellness.

 

I'm stopping here because it's after lunch time and I've been neglecting my kids since before breakfast to read/post here.  Now I have to go apologize to my 5 year-old for holding up our reading lesson.  redface.gif


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Old 03-18-2011, 11:00 AM
 
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I am concerned. I'm trying not to be redundant, but I really do believe that people who think that "no one's out to get you", in the sense that nobody will push a product for profit under the pretense of "universal health", are naive. I can't stress enough that poor people get sick because they're poor and are forced to live in unhealthy living conditions with bad water and bad nutrition. They're not sick because of a lack of vaccines. The people who produce the vaccines perpetuate an interest-focused economy, which perpetuates the wealth gap, which keeps poor people poor and sick. Vaccines are a quick, profitable "fix" for a problem that comes out of the class struggle. Vaccines keep people poor. There are literal and figurative wars raging against poor people. 
 

I have a HUGE problem with Pampers going into a destitute country and offering a "fix", all the while promoting disposable diapers that will rip people of their autonomy and keep them poor. These people are often spending most of their money on diapers because the amazing pampersvaccinegods give them a quick solution, instead of promoting the holistic and autonomous health of their communities. Make no mistakes - those injections were about selling diapers and keeping up the cycle of making poor people dependent on western medicine. Do you think pampers cares about the "third world"? It's the feel-good Tom's Shoes equation (aka - philanthropic capitalism) - and it's a genius marketing tool: take their resources, and then when they're desperate, you've got a perfect selling point - give those desperate folks just a pittance back, compared to what you took, in the form of branding. Make more money in the west, and promote western capitalism there. $$$$$$$$$ !!! It's a HUGE advertisement for Western heroism/capitalism. People need support that is led by their own people in the context of their own culture. But there we are, with a syringe and a diaper and a pair of shoes. They don't need someone to make their shoes for them! And they've been diaperless for eons before pampers made it over there to sell, sell, sell! They need a clean environment that isn't stripped of its own resources so that they can organize, and perhaps make their own shoes (or safely go barefoot). We're like a classic abusive boyfriend, constantly "apologizing" for the mistakes we made. We give gifts that seem like lifesavers, but wouldn't be necessary at all if we hadn't been abusive in the first place. And we do it by making money off of them and each other.

 

THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO PREVENT DISEASE WITHOUT PROMOTING PROFIT.

 

If more privileged people in the west are concerned that the reality of poverty is going to cause their child to get a a "VPD", then be smart and find the source of the problem. Don't pay someone to offer a solution that is actually a huge tool to keep some people rich and most people poor. GET EDUCATED, not exclusively about the medical debate, but also about the true sociological repercussions of vaccines.


I don't read about what's in vaccines. I read about who makes money off of them and how. And what I've come up with scares the Shitake out of me, but I think the real fear mongering is by vaccine advocates who say that you're a BAD parent and that you're BAD for society if you don't inject your child. 


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Old 03-18-2011, 11:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by KimberlyD0 View Post

I've also done years of research which supports vaccines. 99% of the "information" I've found that is anti-vax is fear based and has no backing what so ever.

 

Its a lot of "the world is out get us" stuff and really doesn't help and in fact makes people shake their head and dismiss non-vaxers because of it. Sure there are a few who have had bad experiences, after all it does happen, but the risks are not as high as many non-vaxers want us to think. Yes there is things in vaxes that on the surface are questionable, but then when you trully look into it they're not as high as its made out to be, and many of them are found in much higher doeses in other sorces, including the human body. These VPD are not a walk in the park and not benign as some seem to think.

 

We live in a world free of these VPD because of the vaxes. Sure there are other factors that help. Anyone who says that they would be gone without vaccines, like small pox, needs to reeducate themselves pronto. I for one have no desire to return to a world where half the children didn't make it to adulthood in part because of VPD. Thats not fear thats logic. Why would I want my child, or any child, to suffer when they don't have to?

 

We'll continue to vaccinate. We're also Canadian and we do have a different schedual then the US.

 

Very few people in the developed world trully know what its like to live in a world without vaccines, where these VPD still kill thousands of people a year. I remember the anger when Pampers did there one pack one vaccine campaign and people were angry that we dared give these children and moms a tetnus vaccine. Something killing millions of moms and babies. Something they have no way of ever getting on their own. Just because we have medical care, and sanitation and our risks of tetnus are extreamly low, doesn't mean that other parts of the world don't have a very high risk. The anger suprised and shocked me. People would rather these babies die then get a vaccine? because really that was their choices.

 

Things like that don't help the anti-vax cause.



 



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ldavis24 View Post




Am I the only person getting tired of being told my decisions are purely "fear based", "emotional" "the world is out to get me" because I don't vax. Because truly there could not be any possibility that I have read actual facts and actually understood them and decided based on all that I have read that I don't want to vax my kid...No clearly I must just listen to Jenny Mccarthy and her loudspeaker...Then again those who do decide to vax aren't making decisions based on emotions, or fear (ahem what about the fear of getting the disease?!) and they are smart enough to use logic and not be swayed by paranoia...I find this whole line of thought incredibly insulting. For all anyone knows here I could have a doctorate in epidemiology but I imagine I would still be labeled as not well read enough or whatever...

 

At some point people who vax their kids need to stop trying to tell the rest of us we are paranoid and just nutty. We are as smart as you, we read as much as you, we care about our kids as much as you and we came to a different conclusion. Why is that so hard to accept? I am not out in the world telling people who vax their kids that their decisions are fear based and incorrect but for some reason I am told that all the time by the vaxing crowd. I cannot stand this double standard.

 

Further we do not "live in a world free of these disease because of vaccines" There is so much more at play than vaccines in regard to disease transmission, mortality etc. Please research this more before making such a blanket statement...

 

Finally I feel like this thread has devolved into a place where people who vax their kids are here to tell me why I made the wrong decision, I couldn't possibly be educated enough on topic to disagree with my pediatrician. It is not educated to disagree with your doctor based simply on the fact I don't have a formal education in medicine and finally that old favorite, I am only not vaxing based on fear and emotion. The ultimate trump card of the vax crowd, belittle people by telling everyone they are only being "emotional".

 

I don't understand why people even come here to rail against those who don't vax. The main question of this thread was DO YOU VAX....not if you vax please tell us why everyone else is wrong. I don't care if someone wants to vax their kid, more power to you! Please stop caring if I don't vax mine. 

 


Thank you!

also to kimberlydo - please research the history of smallpox. You may be interested by what you discover. for example a smallpox epidemic occurred in England during the period 1871-1873 at a time when a compulsory smallpox vaccination law had resulted in nearly universal coverage. A Royal Commission was appointed in 1889 to investigate the history of vaccination in the United Kingdom. Evidence mounted that smallpox epidemics increased dramatically after 1854, the year the compulsory vaccination law went into effect. In the London epidemic of 1857-1859, there were more than 14,000 deaths; in the 1863-1865 outbreak 20,000 deaths; and from 1871 to 1873 all of Europe was swept by the worst smallpox epidemic in recorded history. In England and Wales alone, 45,000 people died of smallpox at a time when, according to official estimates, 97 percent of the population had been vaccinated. Their investigation led to the repeal of England's compulsory smallpox vaccination law.

 

another example is Japan  When they started compulsory vaccination against smallpox in 1872 the disease steadily increased each year. In 1892 more than 165,000 cases occurred with 30,000 deaths in a completely vaccinated population. During the same time period Australia had no compulsory vaccination laws, and only three deaths occurred from smallpox over a 15-year period.

 

or how about the Philippines... Between 1917 and 1919, the US government staged a compulsory vaccination campaign, which brought on the worst epidemic of smallpox in the country's history with over 160,000 cases and over 70,000 deaths in a completely vaccinated population.

 

are you aware of the history of Leicester, England?? The Leicester method was far more effective at controlling smallpox than vaccination.

 

 

“It is pathetic and ludicrous to say we ever vanquished smallpox with vaccines, when only 10% of the population was ever vaccinated.”
- Dr. Glen Dettman (Australian Pathologist)


 

 

“It is pathetic and ludicrous to say we ever vanquished smallpox with vaccines, when only 10% of the population was ever vaccinated.”
- Dr. Glen Dettman

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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So, when I started reading this thread...


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Old 03-18-2011, 02:09 PM
 
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ROTFLMAO.gifhaha to the above

 

 

I just want to say I am not a very educated person at all. I was thrown out of school in 9th grade. They decided I could go to an "alternative" school the following year, and I did. I graduated, but seriously we did like 1st grade work...I went to college for 1 semester...

 

According to US statistics my family is poor ($24-27,000 a year). We have plumbing and a decent apartment in a decent area. I used to live in a very heavily immigrated area, and we were the only-born "Americans" in the whole neighborhood.

 

Considering all of this and the fact I literally did not even know Jenny Macarthy doesn't vax her kids, I still don't vax. Yes vaccines are all about $$$$$, whether or not you choose to believe it. I would rather my child/myself get a "VPD" and have natural immunity. Sure there is a small (extremely small since I live in the US) chance she or I may suffer a complication that could lead to some issues or death, but there is also a chance a vax could hurt her permanently or kill her too. In fact when we did vax it DID hurt her and she had complications and I am so thankful they weren't permanent.

 

Not vaxing just seems like common sense to me...


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Old 03-18-2011, 02:53 PM
 
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we started vaccinating ds from birth and continued until 9 months but then stopped so i could research the issue more, but have decided to hold off all other vaccines. For me it started out as a comparision to how i grew up and in all honesty, chicken pox. I had the chicken pox when I was four, a very mild case, but i had it none the less. I also had shingles at 14. But this disease made me question why my healthy ds needs all these shots I was never given. Had they not started adding so many shots to the list and more and more boosters, I may have continued vaxing my ds, but there just has to be so many vaccines, and then they have to be state mandated to attend public school unless you file an exemption. I liken it to one thing $$, corporations want to make money from the vaccines, but they also don't want to lose money because a child needs to stay home and a parent must stay with them. Ironically I see pro-science being brought up, as if those of us who have not vaccinated or have questioned the motives behind the schedule have no interest in science. I think it is unscientific to assume everyone will be okay with a vaccine, and will not have reactions, or that those that do are just a casuality for the herd? Perhaps vaccinating is stalling our own species in evolution. Bottom line for me, though is that injecting poisons, and toxins and other unnatural ingredients into infants does not sound very scientific, but rather something from a futuristic sci-fi film, but wait, it happens everyday and we're just suppose to shrug off the seizures that may have been caused by the aluminum in the hep b shot, or the "sids" death we hear about at work, no; scientists definitely need to test theories, not just take CDC's word for it and keep giving the vaccines and keep adding to the schedule until 30 years from now our grandkids are getting vaccines for 100's of viruses and bacteria, lol, I sure hope not.  


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Everyone is offending everyone else on this thread. Nonvaxers are offended because they feel like they're categorized as crazy conspiracy theorists. Vaxers are offended because they feel like they're categorized as hapless dupes, ready to naively believe anything the government or big corporations tell them. Both sides think that they have the "science" behind them. But I suspect that their definitions of "science" are very different.

 

For the record, I vax and I do not think that nonvaxers are all conspiracy theorists or idiots. My BFF is a nonvaxer. I respect her as a person, I respect her integrity, I respect her intelligence, and I respect her choice. I have seen repeatedly (mostly here at MDC) people categorizing vaxers as dopes who will just lap up anything anyone in a position of authority tells us. That is insulting, but I am not offended because I don't think that that is the opinion of the majority who don't vax. I believe the majority of vaxers and nonvaxers see each other the same way: As intelligent, loving parents who are genuinely trying to do what they feel is best for their children.

 

I want to urge everyone to not get caught up in the rhetoric of the fringe. The fringe- on both sides- relies on inflammatory characterizations because that's all they have. I believe that we can retain power by not getting caught up in their nonsense.

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MDC really needs a "LIKE" button for posts.  I'd make good use of that feature.  smile.gif




(We do have one... it's the little thumbs-up icon at the bottom right of the post!) smile.gif


 


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I beg your pardon, but most of us on this board are well-educated, intelligent, and well-researched.  I graduated magna cum laude with a B.S.  I designed, implemented, and defended a Master's research project, and graduated with a 4.0.  I think I can read and interpret journal articles and research papers about vaccines.  I'm sure most of the moms here on both sides of this debate are at least as intelligent and a lot are even better-educated than I (although I am not presuming to equate education with intelligence here).  I would hope that we all can act like mature adults here and have a little respect for each others' opinions (as the topic indicates, these are opinions we're discussing here). 

 

 

one of the reasons that i think that it seems like people see something that is part of the nature of science and, because it contradicts what they learned about science, they think that the entire enterprise is faulty.

 

for example:

-science never proves anything. if someone says, "scientifically proven" it shows that they don't know what they are talking about.

-the scientific method doesn't exist. the process of science is absolutely _not_ that strict. just because journal articles are presented that way doesn't mean that is the way it happens.

-the scientific community is absolutely aware that science is a human endeavor and has inherent bias.

-scientists are also aware that funding may create bias and there are strict professional consequences for anyone found to be in violation of professional ethics.

 

yet these are things that are routinely held up as reasons that something scientific is faulty and dismissible.

 

so, it's not necessarily the education that matters, it's the science education. which could very well be autodidactic rather than formal.

 


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Old 03-18-2011, 04:07 PM
 
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“It is pathetic and ludicrous to say we ever vanquished smallpox with vaccines, when only 10% of the population was ever vaccinated.”

- Dr. Glen Dettman (Australian Pathologist)

 

Good quote.  

 

Parents simply aren't armed with the information they need, such as:

 

No one gets polio UNLESS they vaccinate.

 

If that is "fear based", that's because it's scary.  I can't make that fact any more scary than it is.  I just have to state the fact and the fear comes all on it's own, as it should.  

 

Vaccines did NOT cause the disease declines, and all diseases died out of their own accord in the past, it is a very normal event that has seen untold amounts of diseases come and go in the past.  See this picture:

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/40874_451441187808_613002808_5195233_6148957_n.jpg

 

There is statistical data to support that chart, my friend made it.  I've seen the data - it's out there, it isn't hidden, but you do need to know what to look for and you do need to know how to interpret data. 


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Old 03-18-2011, 04:11 PM
 
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Propaganda and the Mess of the Anti-Vaccination Movement

 

I see people saying that the anti-vax info is fear mongering and I just start to dribble into my lap.  Have you looked around lately?  I can't go to the pharmacy without being bombarded by vaccine propaganda.  Not just any propaganda but arguably the most fear and guilt based propaganda ever.  The little baby coughing his lungs out?  That's not science, that's clearly emotive.  Even I second guessed my decision not to vax because when you have a new baby you are absolutely surrounded on all corners by this fear and guilt.  It starts in the hospital, and doesn't end until they reach about 3 years old.  Only the very staunch make it through that jungle and come out the other end with an unvaxed child.  

 

It is obnoxious and hypocritical to label the anti-vax movement as all the things the vax movement is at such a greater degree.  

 

But as they say, fish can't see water.

 

The vax industry can do that because it is drowning in money.  It is a well oiled machine because it can afford to be.  The anti-vax movement is messy but most activist groups are, they are made up of concerned citizens, not lobbyists.  They have no money, and therefore organisation is less efficient, the info disjointed... and frankly, I'm disappointed that MDC displays such ignorance and disdain to this issue.  

 

What is important is: can I verify this claim they are making?  And research.

 

Asking your doctor is not research, that's getting an opinion.  Research is going and finding the historical data for each disease, including the decline, and what caused that decline.  Research is looking up the adverse reactions statistics, how many doctors are reporting and why they don't report 90% of them, and finding out how many class action law suits are against the industry and gov't - you would do no less if you were going to buy a new washing machine.  Research is writing down the names of the highest profile vaccine activists and anti-vaccine activists and some of the lower profile ones and then thoroughly researching each one's vested interests, background, etc.  Why is this person advocating vaccination, why is this one against it?  


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Old 03-18-2011, 04:29 PM
 
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Vax.


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Old 03-18-2011, 05:34 PM
 
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Quote:
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Vaccines did NOT cause the disease declines, all diseases died out of their own accord in the past, it is a very normal event that has seen untold amounts of diseases come and go in the past.  See this picture:

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/40874_451441187808_613002808_5195233_6148957_n.jpg

 

There is statistical data to support that chart, my friend made it.  I've seen the data - it's out there, it isn't hidden, but you do need to know what to look for and you do need to know how to interpret data. 


Might be kind of veering off track here (especially since I agree with your position on this issue!) but I have been trying to find data on the disease rate of decline -- this one shows the death rate, but I am looking for disease incidence not just deaths... I could've sworn I saw it at one point but I haven't been able to find it since... any chance you have a link to something like that?

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Old 03-18-2011, 05:40 PM
 
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I looked in the sticky section and couldn't find Emmeline's 10 questions.  She also provides some links, which I don't have, but I do have the questions.  Emmeline, if you're lurking, please chime in with the rest.

 

Note the depth and complexity involved in finding answers to most of these questions.  That alone should dispel the myth that non-vax-compliant parents blindly listen to Jenny McCarthy, conspiracy theory websites, and their own whiny emotions.  

 

Answering these questions actually requires some mental muscle, dedicated research, and genuine scientific inquiry.  But whether you vax fully, not at all, or somewhere in between....I admire and applaud you if you put this much thought into your decision!

 

You now are entering a tinfoil hat-free zone.  thumb.gif

 

 

 

Quote:
Here are some questions to answer for yourself in deciding about vax.

1. Name of the disease
2. Description of the disease
3. Length of time from initial infection to end of all symptoms
4. Infectious period
5. Normal symptoms of the disease
6. Known serious consequences of the disease
7. Proportion of persons infected developing serious consequences
8. Transmission route of the disease
9. Prevalence of the disease
10. Treatments of the disease and efficacy of those treatments
11. Relevant research about the disease
12. Name of the vaccine
13. Company that makes the vaccine
14. Contents of the vaccine
14A. The significance of whether or not the vaccine is live
15. History of development of the vaccine
16. Known side-effects of the vaccine and rate of incidence of those side-effects
17. Possible side-effects not yet acknowledged by the vaccine maker
18. Relevant research into the vaccine
19. How effective is the vaccine at preventing the disease?
20.What is the vaccine meant to do? (Many vaccines are not meant to prevent infection or transmission).
21.Number of cases reported each year.
22.Number of deaths reported each year from the vaccine and natural disease.

 


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I looked in the sticky section and couldn't find Emmeline's 10 questions.  She also provides some links, which I don't have, but I do have the questions.  Emmeline, if you're lurking, please chime in with the rest.

 

Note the depth and complexity involved in finding answers to most of these questions.  That alone should dispel the myth that non-vax-compliant parents blindly listen to Jenny McCarthy, conspiracy theory websites, and their own whiny emotions.  

 

Answering these questions actually requires some mental muscle, dedicated research, and genuine scientific inquiry.  But whether you vax fully, not at all, or somewhere in between....I admire and applaud you if you put this much thought into your decision!

 

You now are entering a tinfoil hat-free zone.  thumb.gif

 

 

 

 


Love this! And also wanted to add that as someone who doesn't vax I am very VERY sensitive to when my DD is sick. I pay very close attention to the symptoms, we don't go ANYWHERE. I make sure to doubly try and get her to eat well, i actually take our frozen homemade chicken stock and put it in a sippy cup warmed up for, which she loves. I have a fully packed medicine cabinet full of various things that will help us get through sicknesses including a stethoscope (ok i stole this from my college's clinicinnocent.gif years ago) as well as various herbal and homeopathic remedies. I also have the conventional baby tylenol for a severe fever and other random stuff.

 

I do not take the decision to not vax lightly, I feel like it is my responsibility to be as learned as I can in the symptoms of VPDs as well as the possibility of exposure in my particular area. My mother is also immune compromised so I NEVER risk exposing her to any bug when I think DD or I have one. She could end up in the hospital very very quickly. 

 

Whether you vax or not, one should never act as though stuffing their kid with cough medicine and sending their snotty little behinds out in public is an ok thing do to!

 

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Old 03-18-2011, 06:31 PM
 
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This may be OT but I am bringing it up b/c of that chart I just looked at. Scarlett fever essentially eradicated itself, absolutely. I just want to say that I did have it and my sister had it too. It was rough for a couple weeks. We now laugh about how we were lying on the couch together halucinating b/c our fevers were so high. We are fine though. I haven't had anything more than a cold in maybe 10 years and I'm only 23.

 

I have no clue if I was vaxed as a kid or not. I do know that I had blood drawn to see what vaxes were in my system or w/e (IDK what it's called) and the Dr. said it didn't look like I had any, but I had immunity (paraphrasing b/c I can't remember the exact word she used) to Hep B. I know I had CP as a kid and it was no big deal.


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Old 03-18-2011, 08:16 PM
 
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Scarlet fever hasn't been eradicated. The incidence of scarlet fever hasn't declined significantly in the last century. What we've nearly eradicated is DEATH from scarlet fever--because our understanding of how to prevent the spread of infection increased, our understanding of how to care for those infected increased, and then finally because penicillin came into common usage. You'll notice that while death from scarlet fever had declined, the last hurrah for scarlet fever deaths came in the last few decades before the 1950s, when we had penicillin in abundance to treat strep infections. Strep in those days had very little resistance to penicillin, and so scarlet fever became simple to treat in most cases.

I don't find those charts particularly useful, because they deal with death rates, not the incidence of infection. There are many, many reasons why improvements in our understanding of disease, and our treatment of disease, would have resulted in significantly reduced death rates. For example, the death rate from pediatric diarrheal diseases began to plummet a long, long time before we had rotavirus vaccinations. The rate of infection with rotavirus remains very high-- nearly every child in the USA has contracted it at least once by age 5. And yet death from it has become uncommon, because we understand the disease and how to prevent the deadly dehydration that used to kill children. In order to assess the efficacy of vaccines, we don't need data about mortality. We need data about infection rates. That would be more convincing.

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Old 03-19-2011, 03:31 AM
 
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Getting accurate data on infection rates would be ideal. However completely impossible. It would essentially require swabbing the entire population regularly to see what pathogens they are carrying and establish what percentage of people carrying the pathogen become symptomatic, as well as identifying which pathogens can result in diseases that present with similar Sx.

 

I just do not see this being realistic.

 

Stats on mortality are far more likely to be accurate than stats on incidence of disease.


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This may be OT but I am bringing it up b/c of that chart I just looked at. Scarlett fever essentially eradicated itself, absolutely. I just want to say that I did have it and my sister had it too. It was rough for a couple weeks. We now laugh about how we were lying on the couch together halucinating b/c our fevers were so high. We are fine though. I haven't had anything more than a cold in maybe 10 years and I'm only 23.

 

I have no clue if I was vaxed as a kid or not. I do know that I had blood drawn to see what vaxes were in my system or w/e (IDK what it's called) and the Dr. said it didn't look like I had any, but I had immunity (paraphrasing b/c I can't remember the exact word she used) to Hep B. I know I had CP as a kid and it was no big deal.


You do realize that scarlet fever is not a VPD, right?

 

Also, vaccines don't "stay in your system."  They help your body to create antibodies to various pathogens.  You draw titers to check immunity.  If you have immunity to Hep B, you were likely immunized for it, since to only other way to get immunity to actually contract the disease.  

 

I don't mean to pick on you, but your post is concerning. I've seen you post before that you feel prepared not to vax because you could recognize symptoms of a VPD in your baby and treat appropriately. However, this post indicates a lack of understanding of even which diseases are VPDs and the most basic idea of how vaccines work.

 

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Getting accurate data on infection rates would be ideal. However completely impossible. It would essentially require swabbing the entire population regularly to see what pathogens they are carrying and establish what percentage of people carrying the pathogen become symptomatic, as well as identifying which pathogens can result in diseases that present with similar Sx.

 

I just do not see this being realistic.

 

Stats on mortality are far more likely to be accurate than stats on incidence of disease.


We should just set up swabbing stations on every street cornerwinky.gif...I'm sure it would totally workeyesroll.gif

 



Quote:
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You do realize that scarlet fever is not a VPD, right?

 

Also, vaccines don't "stay in your system."  They help your body to create antibodies to various pathogens.  You draw titers to check immunity.  If you have immunity to Hep B, you were likely immunized for it, since to only other way to get immunity to actually contract the disease.  

 

I don't mean to pick on you, but your post is concerning. I've seen you post before that you feel prepared not to vax because you could recognize symptoms of a VPD in your baby and treat appropriately. However, this post indicates a lack of understanding of even which diseases are VPDs and the most basic idea of how vaccines work.

 


I imagine she probably just to young to remember the immunization? maybe...

I had my mom tell me (ok this is true I swear)...The PLAGUE only went away after "they" started vaccinating for it...In the old days, she said they didn't use injections but they did it the way they did with small pox, smear a little of the pus on an open cut....dizzy.gif

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You do realize that scarlet fever is not a VPD, right?

 

Also, vaccines don't "stay in your system."  They help your body to create antibodies to various pathogens.  You draw titers to check immunity.  If you have immunity to Hep B, you were likely immunized for it, since to only other way to get immunity to actually contract the disease.  

 

I don't mean to pick on you, but your post is concerning. I've seen you post before that you feel prepared not to vax because you could recognize symptoms of a VPD in your baby and treat appropriately. However, this post indicates a lack of understanding of even which diseases are VPDs and the most basic idea of how vaccines work.

 


I was referring to the chart, which is why I said it was OT b/c it is NOT a VPD. I am pretty sure the chart labeled it as eradicated? I know which diseases are VPDs. I got all that titers done when I was like 15, I don't remember getting vaxed or which ones I got ect. So I am saying IF I had gotten them all and the boosters (which again I am not sure of) the only thing that IDK "stuck" was the Hep B then. My only point in sharing that was b/c if you vax your child, it means nothing if you/your child is not completely on top of it for the rest of their lives...


I know vaxes don't "stay in your system" I am not good with words ok. I know they are suppose to make your body create antibodies to to the pathogens...What I was trying to say was if I did have vaxes as a kid (which is highly probable), when I got the titers done I only had hep B. As I mentioned above I was only 15 when I had the titers done.

 

OK. I apologize that I suck with words.


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