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#1 of 55 Old 03-31-2011, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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#2 of 55 Old 03-31-2011, 06:16 PM
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From http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20049118-10391695.html:

 

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University of Pennsylvania's Dr. Brian Strom, who has served on Institute of Medicine panels advising the government on vaccine safety says the prevailing medical opinion is that vaccines are scientifically linked to encephalopathy (brain damage), but not scientifically linked to autism. As for Ratajczak's review, he told us he doesn't find it remarkable. "This is a review of theories. Science is based on facts. To draw conclusions on effects of an exposure on people, you need data on people. The data on people do not support that there is a relationship. As such, any speculation about an explanation for a (non-existing) relationship is irrelevant."

 

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#4 of 55 Old 03-31-2011, 10:36 PM
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It's not the most reassuring conclusion out there, no. 

 

I found Storm's statement about encephalopathy to be really vague.  I'd like to see some data on frequency and severity and probably a few other things. 

 

But for my purposes here, the part that's most relevant is Storm's assertion that conclusions about the impact of vaccines need to come from studies of people, not studies of theories. 

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You should keep in mind that finding a link is not the same as finding causation.

 

For example, if I sometimes have an upset stomach when I eat chocolate, does that mean that chocolate caused my upset stomach?  Of course not.  It could be that sometimes when I eat chocolate I also drink a cup of milk and milk is actually the cause of my upset stomach.  It could be that I sometimes eat chocolate when my body is trying to fight off the stomach flu and when I eat the chocolate I'm giving up eating healthier foods, which could have staved off the onset of my stomach flu for a few more hours or even a day.  Et cetera. 

 

I do think that it is pretty clear that vaccines can cause fever.  Fever can (rarely) cause febrile seizures.  Febrile seizures can (rarely) be associated with complex seizures.  Complex seizures can (rarely) be associated with encephalopathy. 

 

I would also point out that there is a real and proven risk of brain damage from VPDs. 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by miriam View Post

 

As for the danger of "VPDs" let me direct you to the CDC's own description of measles in 1967:  

 

QUOTE For centuries the measles virus has maintained a remarkably stable ecological relationship with man. The clinical disease is a characteristic syndrome of notable constancy and only moderate severity. Complications are infrequent, and, with adequate medical care, fatality is rare. /UNQUOTE

 

 

Can we say the same about the measles component of  the MMR?

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1919891/pdf/pubhealthreporig00027-0069.pdf



Agreed.

 

The risks of VPDs have never and will never magically make the vaccines safe.  Wanting to avoid a very slim potential risk of brain damage from VPDs by vaccinating is just taking on the potential risk of brain damage from the vaccine.  


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Originally Posted by miriam View Post





OK.  But the medical profession does not want parents to have that choice.  They have gone to every state legislature to mandate "no shots, no school". The only brain damage a child is allowed to sustain is of the iatrogenic brand - only doctors and pharmaceuticals are allowed to cause brain damage.  Has that been done for chocolate and stomach aches?  


I agree.  It's a violation of basic human rights IMO.  We are messing with Mother Nature and it's not good.

 


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Comparing chocolate to vaccines?  

 


eyesroll.gif  I thought it was pretty obvious that I was using chocolate and stomachaches as an example of the difference between correlation and causation, not in an attempt to show similarity between chocolate and vaccines.  I'm sorry if you didn't understand that.

 

But if you want to compare the risk of brain damage and death associated with MMR vaccination versus the risk of brain damage and death associated with measles, I'm happy to discuss that.  First, with respect to the vaccine, the CDC says:

 

Quote:
Seizure (jerking or staring) caused by fever (about 1 out of 3,000 doses)
[...]
Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses)

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm#mmr

 

The NIH says:

 

Quote:
There is no evidence that [febrile seizures] cause death, brain damage, epilepsy, mental retardation, a decrease in IQ, or learning difficulties.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000980.htm

 

But even if we assume that the correlation is also causation, unprovoked (non-febrile) seizures occur in only about 6% of children who have febrile seizures (and of course their risk is more associated with other factors).  Still, that leaves us with no more than 6% of 1/3,000, which is .002% (or 1/50,000) of children who will at some point have an unprovoked seizure associated with vaccination.  And the NIH says:

 

Quote:
Death or permanent brain damage from seizures is rare.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000694.htm

 

So even among the 1/50,000 kids who have at least one seizure associated with vaccination, it would be "rare" for death or brain damage to occur.  And that's without any proof that any of those kids had seizures caused by vaccination. 

 

But let's push on to the risk of death or brain damage from measles, shall we?  These are the risks estimated by the CDC:

 

Quote:

Even in previously healthy children, measles can be a serious illness requiring hospitalization. As many as 1 out of every 20 children with measles gets pneumonia, and about 1 child in every 1,000 who get measles will develop encephalitis. (This is an inflammation of the brain that can lead to convulsions, and can leave the child deaf or mentally retarded.) For every 1,000 children who get measles, 1 or 2 will die from it. Measles also can make a pregnant woman have a miscarriage, give birth prematurely, or have a low-birth-weight baby.

 

In developing countries, where malnutrition and vitamin A deficiency are common, measles has been known to kill as many as one out of four people. It is the leading cause of blindness among African children. Measles kills almost 1 million children in the world each year.

http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/complications.html

 

Personally, I don't think the numbers even compare.  Even if we assume the absolute worst about vaccines, the risk of measles (if one gets measles) is far, far greater. 

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Personally, I don't think the numbers even compare.  Even if we assume the absolute worst about vaccines, the risk of measles (if one gets measles) is far, far greater. 



That's kind of the point.  You have to GET measles to have a risk of side effects.  You only have to get the vaccine to have the risk of side effects - and the risk is undertaken several times during one's life if they follow the CDC's recommendation.  So that risk is multiplied by every single person who takes that particular vaccine every time they take it.


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That's kind of the point.  You have to GET measles to have a risk of side effects.  You only have to get the vaccine to have the risk of side effects - and the risk is undertaken several times during one's life if they follow the CDC's recommendation.  So that risk is multiplied by every single person who takes that particular vaccine every time they take it.


And what do you think your risk of getting measles would be if there was no vaccine?  My understanding is that it was nearly 100% by the age of 10 before the introduction of vaccines.  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869647/?tool=pubmed

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Having had measles myself and watched my siblings and contemporaries recover, I will take disease over the vaccine any day.  A generation ago, reflecting the culture, so did the Bradys; the debate was not over vaccine versus disease, but whether or not to have a male or female doctor, who, made a housecall!  

 

Symptoms: a slight, fever, a few dots, and a great big smile!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk29607gSWA&playnext=1&list=PLD14DDFB01C3BB68D

 

If anyone took American, European literature, or read diaries, one would know that measles, mumps, rubella and even pertussis were childhood diseases that were overcome easily. Chicken pox is now being painted with the same brush, but most people will recall that is not true.



Seriously, the fact that you and a few other children did fine is supposed to negate the fact that nearly one million children per year die as a result of measles?  Does the fact that my DD did fine with her MMR vax mean that the vax is nothing to worry about?  Because she did totally fine.  headscratch.gif

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And what do you think your risk of getting measles would be if there was no vaccine?  My understanding is that it was nearly 100% by the age of 10 before the introduction of vaccines.  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869647/?tool=pubmed


And somehow the human race survived.

 

My mother had measles when she was 2.  I'd guess most of that generation had measles.  It used to be considered a generally mild childhood illness, with only rare complications.

 


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Originally Posted by no5no5 View Post


 



Seriously, the fact that you and a few other children did fine is supposed to negate the fact that nearly one million children per year die as a result of measles?  Does the fact that my DD did fine with her MMR vax mean that the vax is nothing to worry about?  Because she did totally fine.  headscratch.gif



You already included a quote saying that in developing countries what malnourishment and vitamin A deficiencies are rampant, those children die of measles.

 

We're not comparing apples to apples.  There are not one million children per year dying of measles in the US, nor have there ever been.  You're using global statistics as a fear factor, which is totally inappropriate to this discussion.


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And somehow the human race survived.

 

My mother had measles when she was 2.  I'd guess most of that generation had measles.  It used to be considered a generally mild childhood illness, with only rare complications.


I've no doubt the human race will survive vaccination as well.  smile.gif

 

My question is, if "rare" complications for measles meant about 1/20, why are serious vaccine complications, which are on the order of one in thousands or millions, not even more "rare"?

 

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You already included a quote saying that in developing countries what malnourishment and vitamin A deficiencies are rampant, those children die of measles.

 

We're not comparing apples to apples.  There are not one million children per year dying of measles in the US, nor have there ever been.  You're using global statistics as a fear factor, which is totally inappropriate to this discussion.

On the contrary, I don't intend to frighten anyone.  I don't think it makes sense to be afraid of complications that occur on the order of one in hundreds, much less one in thousands or millions.  I think it makes sense to reduce risk, but not to be afraid. 

 

But I do think that the argument that a disease is harmless because it didn't harm a few people is a specious one.  It's not a harmless disease.  Even in the best of circumstances, it can cause severe complications or death.  That's a fact. 

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But I do think that the argument that a disease is harmless because it didn't harm a few people is a specious one.  It's not a harmless disease.  Even in the best of circumstances, it can cause severe complications or death.  That's a fact. 


 

Uh, so is the fact that vaccines can cause severe complications or death.  You're trading one risk for another.  No one said the disease was harmless.  In general, measles was considered a mild disease until the introduction and widespread use of the vaccine, and suddenly it's a terrifying disease that one is sure to die from if not vaccinated?  Any illness can cause severe complications or death.  Even a cold can be RSV in an infant.  


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Uh, so is the fact that vaccines can cause severe complications or death.  You're trading one risk for another.  No one said the disease was harmless.  In general, measles was considered a mild disease until the introduction and widespread use of the vaccine, and suddenly it's a terrifying disease that one is sure to die from if not vaccinated?  Any illness can cause severe complications or death.  Even a cold can be RSV in an infant.  



All I'm saying is that it makes sense to choose a lower risk rather than a higher risk.  Vaccines have a very, very low risk.  Measles also has a low risk, but it is considerably higher.  Again, I never said or implied that measles is "terrifying" or that everyone who doesn't get vaccinated is going to die from it.  eyesroll.gif  I said that it is not harmless.  It was never harmless.  It continues to not be harmless.  IMO, it is much more harmful than vaccines.  IMO, vaccines save far more lives than they endanger, whereas measles endangers many lives without, as far as I can see, saving any.  If you disagree with my analysis as to which is riskier, that's fine.  But I don't understand why you apparently fail to see the benefit of choosing the less risky option. 

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All I'm saying is that it makes sense to choose a lower risk rather than a higher risk.  Vaccines have a very, very low risk.  Measles also has a low risk, but it is considerably higher.  Again, I never said or implied that measles is "terrifying" or that everyone who doesn't get vaccinated is going to die from it.  eyesroll.gif  I said that it is not harmless.  It was never harmless.  It continues to not be harmless.  IMO, it is much more harmful than vaccines.  IMO, vaccines save far more lives than they endanger, whereas measles endangers many lives without, as far as I can see, saving any.  If you disagree with my analysis as to which is riskier, that's fine.  But I don't understand why you apparently fail to see the benefit of choosing the less risky option. 


Id wager a guess that bokon sees the less risky option as NOT vaccinating with the MMR - that's why. Im sure she will anwser for herself!  As for your claim that serious vaccine reactions are even more rare than measles complications - well when 90% of vaccine reactions are denied by the scientific and medical communities as being vaccine reactions - it's not too hard to figure out why that is. You know for vaccine reactions being soooooooo rare and all - there are a BOATLOAD of parents out there with damaged children that were just fine before they received their vaccines. All those poor misguided parents left holding the bag caring for their damaged kids who have a wide variety of issues and problems. Misguided because while they KNOW the vaccines played a role in the damage - we all know it was merely a cooincidence.
 

 


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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Id wager a guess that bokon sees the less risky option as NOT vaccinating with the MMR - that's why. Im sure she will anwser for herself!  As for your claim that serious vaccine reactions are even more rare than measles complications - well when 90% of vaccine reactions are denied by the scientific and medical communities as being vaccine reactions - it's not too hard to figure out why that is. You know for vaccine reactions being soooooooo rare and all - there are a BOATLOAD of parents out there with damaged children that were just fine before they received their vaccines. All those poor misguided parents left holding the bag caring for their damaged kids who have a wide variety of issues and problems. Misguided because while they KNOW the vaccines played a role in the damage - we all know it was merely a cooincidence.
 


 

Ah, there we have it.  You disagree with my analysis of the risks of vaccination because you trust anecdotal lay people's opinions over what scientists say the research says.  That's fine.  I can totally accept that.  We disagree fundamentally on what constitutes evidence, but again, that's fine.

 

It does make me wonder why you keep citing scientific articles, though, if you think that they are full of lies. 

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I think the point being that some scientific evidence says vaccines are totally safe and some scientific evidence says that they're not.   Who do you believe?  Really, pick your biased opinion on anything, vax's included, and you can find the research to back it up. 

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I think the point being that some scientific evidence says vaccines are totally safe and some scientific evidence says that they're not.   Who do you believe?  Really, pick your biased opinion on anything, vax's included, and you can find the research to back it up. 


I've never seen any scientific evidence that says that vaccines are totally safe.  Nor have I ever seen any scientific evidence that says that the vaccines used today create a risk of brain damage or death that is greater than the risk of brain damage or death that they prevent.  I'd love to see it if you can find it.  smile.gif

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I don't understand why some treat science as if it's math. When there isn't any "proof" of something, then there's absolutely no consideration of various theories until the proof has been made or if there is "proof" of something, then that is The Bible and there's no chance of it being wrong. Science is constantly evolving, there are numerous examples of "FACTS" in science that have later been proven WRONG.

 

There's so much unknown in science, otherwise, why would they still need to continue studies after studies to determine the effects of certain things on our bodies. Because they don't know. Or better yet, they never thought to consider that "hey, maybe this might be harmful, let's study it" until way later when it becomes so obvious to the rest of the world that something's amiss because the number of people suffering is too blatant to continue ignoring.

 

I don't understand why the apprehension to inject several live viruses of various diseases (and double the amount compared to when I was growing up) that contain traces of aluminum, formaldehyde, mercury etc. over and over again into a tiny baby's body is such a hard thing to understand?

 
 

Quote:

Nor have I ever seen any scientific evidence that says that the vaccines used today create a risk of brain damage or death that is greater than the risk of brain damage or death that they prevent.

 
Well of course not, maybe because no one has studied it??

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All I'm saying is that it makes sense to choose a lower risk rather than a higher risk.  Vaccines have a very, very low risk.  Measles also has a low risk, but it is considerably higher.  Again, I never said or implied that measles is "terrifying" or that everyone who doesn't get vaccinated is going to die from it.  eyesroll.gif  I said that it is not harmless.  It was never harmless.  It continues to not be harmless.  IMO, it is much more harmful than vaccines.  IMO, vaccines save far more lives than they endanger, whereas measles endangers many lives without, as far as I can see, saving any.  If you disagree with my analysis as to which is riskier, that's fine.  But I don't understand why you apparently fail to see the benefit of choosing the less risky option. 


What a second....Am I missing something here?  Vaccines have a very, very low risk?   Since when? Do you know what's IN vaccines? Let me give you a quick preview: 

 

"Vaccines contain ingredients such as MSG, antifreeze, phenol (used as a disinfectant), formaldehyde (cancer causing and used to embalm), aluminum (associated with alzheimer’s disease and seizures), glycerin (toxic to the kidney, liver, can cause lung damage, gastrointestinal damage and death), lead, cadmium, sulfates, yeast proteins, antibiotics, acetone (used in nail polish remover), neomycin and streptomycin.  And the ingredient making the press is thimerosol (more toxic than mercury, a preservative still used in many vaccines, not easily eliminated, can cause severe neurological damage as well as other life threatening autoimmune disease).  These vaccines are grown and strained through animal or human tissue, like monkey and dog kidney tissue, chick embryo, calf serum, human diploid cells (the dissected organs of aborted fetuses), pig blood, horse blood and rabbit brain."   

 

Can you honestly say they are safe and carry very, very low risk after studying what's in them?  Forget about studies and crunching numbers, look at the inserts!   If I       

 


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I don't understand why the apprehension to inject several live viruses of various diseases (and double the amount compared to when I was growing up) that contain traces of aluminum, formaldehyde, mercury etc. over and over again into a tiny baby's body is such a hard thing to understand?

 


No, I understand why it might be scary.  I don't think that it's healthy to let fear overcome reason, but I certainly understand that it often does. 

 

Quote:
Well of course not, maybe because no one has studied it??

 

I wasn't the one who was saying that one could find a study showing anything one wanted.  I was arguing against that point.  I absolutely recognize (and love!) the fact that science is evolving, which means that we are safer and healthier all the time.  If someday the evidence shows that it is healthier and safer to remain unvaccinated than to be vaccinated, of course I will no longer support vaccination. 
 

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What a second....Am I missing something here?  Vaccines have a very, very low risk?   Do you know what's IN vaccines? Let me give you a quick preview: 

 

"Vaccines contain ingredients such as MSG, antifreeze, phenol (used as a disinfectant), formaldehyde (cancer causing and used to embalm), aluminum (associated with alzheimer’s disease and seizures), glycerin (toxic to the kidney, liver, can cause lung damage, gastrointestinal damage and death), lead, cadmium, sulfates, yeast proteins, antibiotics, acetone (used in nail polish remover), neomycin and streptomycin.  And the ingredient making the press is thimerosol (more toxic than mercury, a preservative still used in many vaccines, not easily eliminated, can cause severe neurological damage as well as other life threatening autoimmune disease).  These vaccines are grown and strained through animal or human tissue, like monkey and dog kidney tissue, chick embryo, calf serum, human diploid cells (the dissected organs of aborted fetuses), pig blood, horse blood and rabbit brain."   

 

Can you honestly say they are safe and carry very, very low risk after studying what's in them?  Forget about studies and crunching numbers, look at the inserts!   If I       


Do you have a reliable source for this list?

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#27 of 55 Old 04-01-2011, 04:35 PM
 
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Seriously, the fact that you and a few other children did fine is supposed to negate the fact that nearly one million children per year die as a result of measles?  Does the fact that my DD did fine with her MMR vax mean that the vax is nothing to worry about?  Because she did totally fine.  headscratch.gif

 

 

ROTFLMAO.gifbiglaugh.gif

 

Thanks for the laugh. You have a very skewed view of measles in the first world. 


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"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

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#28 of 55 Old 04-01-2011, 04:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by no5no5 View Post

 


No, I understand why it might be scary.  I don't think that it's healthy to let fear overcome reason, but I certainly understand that it often does. 

 

 

I wasn't the one who was saying that one could find a study showing anything one wanted.  I was arguing against that point.  I absolutely recognize (and love!) the fact that science is evolving, which means that we are safer and healthier all the time.  If someday the evidence shows that it is healthier and safer to remain unvaccinated than to be vaccinated, of course I will no longer support vaccination. 
 


Do you have a reliable source for this list?


Here you go: 

 

http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/package_inserts.htm

 

Unless everyone is reading the labels every time they get a vaccine, and review all of the ingredients, adverse effects, etc, they are taking a very HUGE risk.

 

With all of these adverse reactions listed on the inserts as well as toxic chemicals, don't you think it's healthcare providers' duty to inform patients of what can occur with these vaccines before injecting them and what they are filled with? No, they do not.  Instead, they jab in the needle with no conversation whatsoever about what's in them or how they can potentially affect the child.  Are they really looking out for parents' best interest, or just following what they are taught in med school? I would say it's the latter.  Doctors have no right pushing vaccines on parents when they don't even know what's in them to begin with, which is why it's ashame parents take every word of advice from their doctors without reseaching themselves. I think a lot of parents are afraid to go against the grain out of fear and some may even be afraid of what they may find if they started researching it, thus, just listen to the doctor. 

 

At a quick glance, just one (out of the many) that stands out to me is the Hep B vaccine. Take a look at the warning on that regarding human plasma and how products using human plasma can transmit disease, and although they screen donors, these "products can still potentially transmit disease." You never know what you're going to get, and that's scary! 

 

There are many, many more listed.  Just take a look for yourself and then decide if there is low risk. Don't forget...the AAP recommends several of these at one time each visit.  Hmmmmm.....no thank you.


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#29 of 55 Old 04-01-2011, 05:04 PM
 
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  I don't think that it's healthy to let fear overcome reason, but I certainly understand that it often does. 

 

 


So, we non-vaxxers are letting the fear of a vaccine reaction overcome our sense of reason? So, it must be reasonable to poke a baby with needles full of chemicals? If that is reason,  then I declare myself to be unreasonable! orngtongue.gif


 
 
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#30 of 55 Old 04-01-2011, 05:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

 

ROTFLMAO.gifbiglaugh.gif

 

Thanks for the laugh. You have a very skewed view of measles in the first world. 


Oh, you're welcome.  I'm getting plenty of amusement out of this thread as well.  thumb.gif  Do you want to explain what your view is (and the reason you have that view), or do you want to leave me with my faulty vision?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverMoon010 View Post

 

Here you go: 

 

http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/package_inserts.htm

 

Unless everyone is reading the labels every time they get a vaccine, and review all of the ingredients, adverse effects, etc, they are taking a very HUGE risk.

 

With all of these adverse reactions listed on the inserts as well as toxic chemicals, don't you think it's healthcare providers' duty to inform patients of what can occur with these vaccines before injecting them and what they are filled with? No, they do not.  Instead, they jab in the needle with no conversation whatsoever about what's in them or how they can potentially affect the child.  Are they really looking out for parents' best interest, or just following what they are taught in med school? I would say it's the latter.  Doctors have no right pushing vaccines on parents when they don't even know what's in them to begin with, which is why it's ashame parents take every word of advice from their doctors without reseaching themselves. 

I don't see your quotation at that source.  Am I missing something?

 

And sure, I do think it is a healthcare provider's duty to inform patients of the risks of vaccinations.  Every time I've been vaccinated or had my DD vaccinated, I've been given the handout that lists the risks.  My understanding is that it is required by law.  And yes, of course they do what they were taught in med school--which is also what is in their patients' best interests--unless there is some evidence that they should change their practices and then, for the most part, they do.  If they are pushy, that is a problem.  If they don't give the handout, or don't explain it to someone who wants an explanation, that is a problem.  I don't think it's the norm.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeckyBird View Post


So, we non-vaxxers are letting the fear of a vaccine reaction overcome our sense of reason? So, it must be reasonable to poke a baby with needles full of chemicals? If that is reason,  then I declare myself to be unreasonable! orngtongue.gif


If you made your decision (whatever that decision is) based on your opinion about what is safer for your child, that's reasonable.  If you made it based on fear (which is how I interpreted the comment about "apprehension"), to me that is not reasonable, whatever your decision. 

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Vaccinations , Selective Vaccination , Delayed Vaccination , Thimerosal , Aluminum , Autism , Mmr , Measles

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