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#1 of 54 Old 04-07-2011, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/51585608-78/measles-health-department-immunized.html.csp

No mention of vaccinated or not...

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#2 of 54 Old 04-10-2011, 12:44 PM
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I am curious if anybody can find information on the vax status of this student or the other 2 probable cases.  All the news articles talk about how dangerous it is to not be vaxed, but none mention whether or not the people who are getting sick were vaxed, which, to me, implies that they were, and the health department seems to be operating under the assumption that there is no risk to those that are vaxed when it seems like in most outbreaks, some of the people who get sick are vaxed.

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Originally Posted by JMJ View Post

I am curious if anybody can find information on the vax status of this student or the other 2 probable cases.  All the news articles talk about how dangerous it is to not be vaxed, but none mention whether or not the people who are getting sick were vaxed, which, to me, implies that they were, and the health department seems to be operating under the assumption that there is no risk to those that are vaxed when it seems like in most outbreaks, some of the people who get sick are vaxed.



There is only one other probable case - b/c the kid who has it must have been exposed, so at least one other person has it.  No one else has been diagnosed yet though.  (ETA - I re-read and thought this sounded confusing.  From my read of the article, it appears that there is one person who has been diagnosed and who KNOWS they have measles, and the other case is unknown entirely - but b/c the diagnosed person has not traveled out of Utah, there must be at least one other case in the state.)

 

Yes, in most outbreaks, some of the people who get sick are vaxed - thats b/c vaxes are not 100% effective.  Thats where herd immunity comes in.

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#4 of 54 Old 04-10-2011, 02:06 PM
 
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Being an attenuated vaccine, MMR has a small risk of reversion to virulence.  It's a possibility that can't be ruled out at this stage.


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#5 of 54 Old 04-10-2011, 02:13 PM
 
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It actually says on page 2 that the teen was not immunized.  But normally, if there is no mention in articles like these as to vax status, you can almost guarantee they were vaxed.  They will surely make it a huge deal that the child was not vaccinated of course and blow it out of proportion but when an outbreak is among the vaxed, it tends to be much more quiet.

 

Think about it, even if everyone in the entire country was vaxed against measles, there would still be outbreaks.  I believe there are always going to be outbreaks no matter what. Some diseases tend to circulate every couple of years or so, so we are always going to see them cycle, vax or no vax, especially when vaccines can cause the very same disease they are meant to protect against.


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#6 of 54 Old 04-10-2011, 03:27 PM
 
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The teen is surrounded by people who vaccinate, so any one of those could have reverted to virulence or shed and given it to him.  Finding the source in cases like that would be almost impossible unless the original shedder had symptoms or was recently vaxed.

 

ETA - if it turns out s/he got it from a vaxed person, maybe s/he should sue.  JOKE! duck.gif


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#7 of 54 Old 04-10-2011, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
 
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It actually says on page 2 that the teen was not immunized.  But normally, if there is no mention in articles like these as to vax status, you can almost guarantee they were vaxed.  They will surely make it a huge deal that the child was not vaccinated of course and blow it out of proportion but when an outbreak is among the vaxed, it tends to be much more quiet.

 

Think about it, even if everyone in the entire country was vaxed against measles, there would still be outbreaks.  I believe there are always going to be outbreaks no matter what. Some diseases tend to circulate every couple of years or so, so we are always going to see them cycle, vax or no vax, especially when vaccines can cause the very same disease they are meant to protect against.

Wow. I don't know how I missed that! redface.gif Unless they added updates to the article...I swear I was searching for vax info on the boy. Eh, it was the end of the day when I posted this...I'm brain dead by that point.

This is a newer article...of course making it seem like pure hysteria. So far there is still only one confirmed case.

 

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705370206/More-than-150-contacted-2-new-cases-of-measles-discovered.html

*Interesting quote from the article:

"Individuals born prior to 1957 have natural immunity," she said. "They were exposed to it in the community. Since then, measles has not been common enough in the U.S. to generate natural immunity, therefore necessitating the vaccination."

We need to vaccinate because it's uncommon to find natural measles? Why since 1957? Is that when it started to drop off naturally? Vaccine shows up in 1963, so what made it less common in the 6 years between 1957 and 1963?

 

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*Interesting quote from the article:

"Individuals born prior to 1957 have natural immunity," she said. "They were exposed to it in the community. Since then, measles has not been common enough in the U.S. to generate natural immunity, therefore necessitating the vaccination."

We need to vaccinate because it's uncommon to find natural measles? Why since 1957? Is that when it started to drop off naturally? Vaccine shows up in 1963, so what made it less common in the 6 years between 1957 and 1963?

 


A child born in 1957 would have only been six when the vaccine was licensed.  While a lot of kids had already had measles by that age, others hadn't gotten it yet, and rates dropped quite drastically in just a few short years following the introduction of mass vaccination, so if they hadn't had it by that time, likely they wouldn't get measles at all.  A child born in 1962 almost certainly would not have had a chance to acquire measles naturally.  If anything, it speaks to just how prevalent measles was during the period from 1957-1963 that they assume that kids born in 1956 would have pretty much all had measles even though they would still have been under ten when mass vaccination caused measles to become rather scarce.  

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#9 of 54 Old 04-11-2011, 07:32 AM
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There is only one other probable case - b/c the kid who has it must have been exposed, so at least one other person has it.


More recent articles are noting two more probable cases, friends/family of the teen who recently traveled outside the country, and their physician reported treating them for measles-like symptoms.

 


 

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Wow. I don't know how I missed that! redface.gif Unless they added updates to the article...I swear I was searching for vax info on the boy. Eh, it was the end of the day when I posted this...I'm brain dead by that point.


The Salt Lake Tribune online often changes articles as they get more information, at least up until the point that they publish it.  I also read the article, scanning for vax status, and I remember that paragraph being worded differently.

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#10 of 54 Old 04-12-2011, 12:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The Salt Lake Tribune online often changes articles as they get more information, at least up until the point that they publish it.  I also read the article, scanning for vax status, and I remember that paragraph being worded differently.

Thank you!

Here is the latest news: more cases. The article states that 30% of measles cases have complications. Anyone know where this stat is coming from?

http://www.abc4.com/content/news/slc/story/More-measles-cases-confirmed-in-Salt-Lake-County/1eTBPww4okK-aF6REbzvcA.cspx

 

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Thank you!

Here is the latest news: more cases. The article states that 30% of measles cases have complications. Anyone know where this stat is coming from?

http://www.abc4.com/content/news/slc/story/More-measles-cases-confirmed-in-Salt-Lake-County/1eTBPww4okK-aF6REbzvcA.cspx

 


I would like to know where they are getting that from as well, because everywhere I have read, it states that serious complications from measles is very rare .  It's hard to say without seeing where they are pulling that number from and where the actual studies are coming from.  They don't elaborate (which they never do) so it seems suspicious to me that that is the true number.  Possibly a scare tactic.  I would like to see more data on that before I believe it.


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The pink book quotes a 30% complication rate.

8% of which is diarrhea which is the most commonly reported complication.

7% is Otitis media (earache).

6% is Pneumonia.

Etc.

 

PDF

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/meas.pdf


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The pink book quotes a 30% complication rate.

8% of which is diarrhea which is the most commonly reported complication.

7% is Otitis media (earache).

6% is Pneumonia.

Etc.

 

PDF

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/meas.pdf



Thanks for the info.  I didn't realize they were including diarrhea and earache in that number.   The article presented it as if the 30% consisted of all serious complications, which I knew couldn't be true. The usual...eyesroll.gif

 


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I don't have time to read all of the CDC stuff, but it would be interesting to compare and contrast it with this article, which was published in the BMJ before the measles vaccine was routinely administered.  The article claims that there is a 1/15 complication rate from measles.  Otitis media is considered a complication, while diarrhea isn't. 

 


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Thank you for that article.

 
 
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#16 of 54 Old 04-12-2011, 09:42 PM
 
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From the same CDC link I posted earlier.

 

"Death from measles was reported in approximately 0.2% of the cases in the United States from 1985 through 1992......Since 1995, an average of 1 measles-related death per year has been reported."

 

I'd guess there are many cases of measles that never get reported.  I know that we didn't report Mumps or Chicken pox when our family had it, mostly cause it wasn't bad enough to warrant a doctors visit.


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#17 of 54 Old 04-13-2011, 06:05 AM
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http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/51615326-78/measles-case-cases-confirmed.html.csp

 

Here's another updated article, and finally, we have a couple intelligent commenters explaining some of the problems with the MMR, and of course, getting flamed by the other commenters.

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From the same CDC link I posted earlier.

 

"Death from measles was reported in approximately 0.2% of the cases in the United States from 1985 through 1992......Since 1995, an average of 1 measles-related death per year has been reported."

 

I'd guess there are many cases of measles that never get reported.  I know that we didn't report Mumps or Chicken pox when our family had it, mostly cause it wasn't bad enough to warrant a doctors visit.


This is so true. 

 

With measles, you basically have to let it run its course as there is no real medical treatment required and not everyone seeks medical treatment unless of course there are complications.  So, really, the 30% they speak of is from only the reported/diagnosed cases. Who knows how many cases of measles goes unreported/undiagnosed.  The percentage of complications regarding measles will never be accurate because they are not taking it from the entire population.
 

 


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Yes, in most outbreaks, some of the people who get sick are vaxed - thats b/c vaxes are not 100% effective.  Thats where herd immunity comes in.



In some outbreaks, MOST of the people are vaxed, which calls "herd immunity" into question.  I have more examples, but here's two to start.

 

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-02-08/health/mumps.outbreak.northeast_1_mumps-outbreak-vaccinated-cases?_s=PM:HEALTH

http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/swcounty/article_cdd5eac3-2d89-54cd-b421-a668899709a4.html


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I always wondered about the herd immunity thing because when talking about the MMR vaccine, if the vaccine is not 100% effective, and it does in fact shed, even if everyone in the world was vaccinated against measles, it can still be spread between the vaccinated population.  Shedding from newly vaccinated people and thus infecting others where there is vaccine failure (not 100% effective)  So, is there ever a such thing as herd immunity in that case?  Also, it doesn't confer life-long immunity either, so unless everyone continues getting vaccinated for it throughout their entire lifetime (certainly not promoting that), there will never be a said herd immunity.  I could be totally off base but that's how I see it.  Sometimes I wonder if we are keeping the virus contained in the country by the vaccination. As long as we continue vaccinating with MMR, the measles virus (vaccine virus) will always be within our community and will continue to circulate and resurface.

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In some outbreaks, MOST of the people are vaxed, which calls "herd immunity" into question.  I have more examples, but here's two to start.

 

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-02-08/health/mumps.outbreak.northeast_1_mumps-outbreak-vaccinated-cases?_s=PM:HEALTH

http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/swcounty/article_cdd5eac3-2d89-54cd-b421-a668899709a4.html


 

The mumps vaccine is certainly not one of the most effective ones.  However just having the majority of mumps cases be in vaccinated people does not mean that the vaccine is ineffective - in a highly vaccinated population, and while the vaccine is still protecting many, there can be more people walking around having been vaccinate with a mumps vaccine that failed/didn't take than  there are people who are actually not vaccinated.  That the disease is still limited to outbreaks and has not returned to being a common childhood disease that nearly everyone gets at some point is due to herd immunity.  

 

Pertussis is a problem. I've heard it suggested that the newer vaccine may not be as effective and that we've bought a modicum of vaccine safety with the far more terrible price of letting a deadly disease return, that we would have been better off sticking with the old whole cell vaccine.  Or I've heard, as suggested in this article, that the bacteria has mutated (as bacteria is wont to do) and the vaccine is not as effective against the new strain. In either case, the vaccine did serve its purpose and made pertussis a very rare disease for decades, but it may be time for a new one. 

 

On the other hand, the measles portion of the MMR is a very effective vaccine.  Measles is very rare in vaccinated people.  While it can happen on occasion that a few vaccinated people will get it in an outbreak, the vast majority of measles cases occur in the unvaxed. 

 


 

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I always wondered about the herd immunity thing because when talking about the MMR vaccine, if the vaccine is not 100% effective, and it does in fact shed, even if everyone in the world was vaccinated against measles, it can still be spread between the vaccinated population.  Shedding from newly vaccinated people and thus infecting others where there is vaccine failure (not 100% effective)  So, is there ever a such thing as herd immunity in that case?  Also, it doesn't confer life-long immunity either, so unless everyone continues getting vaccinated for it throughout their entire lifetime (certainly not promoting that), there will never be a said herd immunity.  I could be totally off base but that's how I see it.  Sometimes I wonder if we are keeping the virus contained in the country by the vaccination. As long as we continue vaccinating with MMR, the measles virus (vaccine virus) will always be within our community and will continue to circulate and resurface.


 

As I wrote above, measles is very rare in fully vaccinated people, the vast majority of measles cases are in people who have not even had a single measles vaccine.  Shedding is a real problem with oral polio vaccine, chickenpox vaccine, and the inhaled flu vaccine.  While the measles vaccine could theoretically shed and cause measles in someone else, there is not a single documented case of it happening, so if it does ever happen, it is an extremely rare thing.  Also, while only time will tell for sure, it is currently generally believe that the measles vaccine does induce lifelong immunity.

 

Measles has pretty much been eradicated in the US, only it keeps being brought back from overseas.  It is the vaccine that keeps these imported outbreaks relatively small - stop vaccinating for a 5-10 years to let a large population of completely unprotected little kids build up, and the next imported case that infected one of them wouldn't be limited to a handful of cases or even a couple hundred, it would spread like wildfire and cross the entire nation.

 

It would, in theory, be possible to eradicate measles entirely, it is only political situations and poverty and such that has kept large populations from being vaccinated in some areas and thus allowed measles to thrive there and continue to exist. 

 

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#22 of 54 Old 04-13-2011, 10:07 AM
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I always wondered about the herd immunity thing because when talking about the MMR vaccine, if the vaccine is not 100% effective, and it does in fact shed, even if everyone in the world was vaccinated against measles, it can still be spread between the vaccinated population.  Shedding from newly vaccinated people and thus infecting others where there is vaccine failure (not 100% effective)  So, is there ever a such thing as herd immunity in that case?  Also, it doesn't confer life-long immunity either, so unless everyone continues getting vaccinated for it throughout their entire lifetime (certainly not promoting that), there will never be a said herd immunity.  I could be totally off base but that's how I see it.  Sometimes I wonder if we are keeping the virus contained in the country by the vaccination. As long as we continue vaccinating with MMR, the measles virus (vaccine virus) will always be within our community and will continue to circulate and resurface.


While shedding from newly vaccinated people is a theoretical possibility from any live virus vaccine, I haven't heard of any documented cases of this actually happening with the MMR.  (Please let me know if there are any I haven't heard of.)  It was not uncommon with the oral polio vaccine (OPV not IPV).  In that case, the polio virus passed around by the vaccine was usually less dangerous than wild polio (except for people with immune deficiencies), though it could and did cause paralysis in many cases, could be caught by other non-immune individuals (including possibly causing paralysis), and tended to create immunity to polio for the individuals who were vaccinated and the individuals who caught the vaccine-related polio from vaccinated individuals.  For this reason, along with the fact that the OPV is cheaper, it is the polio vaccine of choice in areas that have high rates of polio since you can effectively immunize people who refuse vaccination by getting them to catch the vaccine-related polio, thus creating more people who are immune to wild polio, increasing "herd immunity."  This all was justified by the idea that fewer children were paralyzed by polio in a population where use of the OPV was widespread then in a population where it was not.  The decision of whether or not that risk was worth it should have been left to parents and individuals, not government organizations.  I think that this vaccine's use was and still is on shaky ground.  What do you say to the people whose children are paralyzed by the vaccine and might not have been if they had not been vaccinated?  What do you say to the people who refused vaccination and caught the more virulent vaccine-related polio from someone who was vaccinated.  In practice, both cases were met with lies that made people distrust even more.  Eventually, the IPV was developed using an inactivated virus, so viral shedding is impossible.  It is still not 100% effective, but enough people are immune that much of the world has not seen a case of wild polio in decades.  The OPV is still used in many parts of the world.

 

Vaccines do have the potential to eradicate disease.  An example of this is smallpox, which no longer exists in the world, and most historians credit this to the widespread use of vaccination.  However, it is a logic fallacy to believe that every vaccine will work this way if we all just submit and allow our children to be vaccinated for every disease we can.  Some vaccines (pertussis, Prevnar, etc) have been implicated as contributing to the mutation of the pathogens and/or an increase in other, often more dangerous strains of the diseases.  Some vaccines (DTP, original rotavirus vaccine, OPV, etc) have been so well documented to have adverse effects that they are no longer legal to use in the United States and many other countries (but we still send them to 3rd world countries in the case of the OPV), and even if they have the ability to contribute to the eradication of disease, it is questionable if their use is ethical and whether the benefits outweigh the risks because they don't for every child, and it is the responsibility of parents to weight the benefits and risks for their own children.

 

Back to measles.  The measles vaccine, while not 100% effective, is pretty effective against the measles, and it holds its effectiveness pretty well so that almost all people who are vaccinated against the measles as children will have immunity to the virus at least until they are past retirement age.  Very, very few vaccinated individuals get the measles.  This makes it easier to contain an outbreak because you only have to quarantine people who you suspect are not immune.  The health department is complaining about how expensive it is to contact all these unvaccinated people to tell them to stay home for a couple weeks, but the truth is that with so many people vaccinated and probably immune, that makes their job even manageable.  When vaxed kids start getting sick is when it gets scary, but this is less common with the measles than many other vaccines.  Others may argue, but I believe that the measles vaccine is effective enough that it is possible that if most people were vaccinated, outbreaks were handled carefully worldwide, and the virus does not mutate, we could possibly eradicate the measles worldwide.  I believe this is unlikely to happen any time soon, though, based on other factors that discourage people (like me!) from getting their children vaccinated.

 

Criticism of the MMR centers less around its effectiveness in preventing the measles (but there is question about its ability to prevent the mumps) for individuals who are vaccinated at this point and more around whether or not measles is worth eradicating in this fashion, whether the use of the vaccine could contribute to the rise of other strains of the disease, whether the use of aborted fetal tissue in the manufacturing process of the vaccine is ethical or safe, whether other ingredients are safe, whether or not the MMR is a risk factor for other problems including autism, death, cancers, improper development of the immune system, and other health issues, and whether or not the benefits outweigh the risks/ethical concerns for individual children in different situations.

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The pink book quotes a 30% complication rate.

8% of which is diarrhea which is the most commonly reported complication.

7% is Otitis media (earache).

6% is Pneumonia.

Etc.

 

PDF

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/meas.pdf

Thank You!
 

 

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Vaccines do have the potential to eradicate disease.  An example of this is smallpox, which no longer exists in the world, and most historians credit this to the widespread use of vaccination. 

Smallpox was not eradicated by vaccines.  

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#25 of 54 Old 04-13-2011, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Smallpox was not eradicated by vaccines.  



This reminds me, I remember reading that only 10% of the population was vaccinated against small pox but now I can't find where I read it. Does anyone have a source for this?

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As I wrote above, measles is very rare in fully vaccinated people, the vast majority of measles cases are in people who have not even had a single measles vaccine.  

 


Yes, in undeveloped countries.  The vast majority of measles cases in the U.S. are in vaccinated individuals.

 


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Some good info about the efficacy of MMR here:

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/mmr/

 

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/2008/02/02/measles-the-grim-reality/


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#28 of 54 Old 04-13-2011, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Calm View Post

 

Smallpox was not eradicated by vaccines.  



I didn't make a judgment there.  I don't claim to know enough to be sure of much of anything.  I just stated what most historians credit polio's eradication to.  I'm interested in hearing your theories as well.

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Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post

Some good info about the efficacy of MMR here:

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/mmr/

 

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/2008/02/02/measles-the-grim-reality/

 

We do the MMR, but these are fascinating links.  Thanks!

 

I think this site could augment its credibility with some transparency about who runs it.  Just sayin'....

 


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#30 of 54 Old 04-14-2011, 02:09 PM
 
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I didn't make a judgment there.  I don't claim to know enough to be sure of much of anything.  I just stated what most historians credit polio's eradication to.  I'm interested in hearing your theories as well.


This doctor's quote in February this year: "Smallpox was not eradicated by vaccines as many doctors readily say it was. They say this out of conditioning rather than out of understanding the history or science."

 

“It is pathetic and ludicrous to say we ever vanquished smallpox with vaccines, when only 10% of the population was ever vaccinated.”
- Dr. Glen Dettman source (but this can be sourced in many places)

 

Related to measles and the other VPD, think of the level of coverage we've had globally... it has been much higher than smallpox ever was, and we still can't eliminate the diseases.  

 

A page on Smallpox with stats.

 

If further discussion is warranted on smallpox, start a thread and let me know.  Don't want to lose posts if this is considered off topic.


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