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#1 of 32 Old 05-22-2011, 06:06 AM - Thread Starter
 
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CDC Autism Researcher Indicted for Fraud!!

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/05/22/cdc-autism-researcher-indicted-for-fraud.aspx

 

Tee-hee.


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#2 of 32 Old 05-22-2011, 10:31 AM
 
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Old, old news.

 

I suggest you read into things a bit further than mercola.  Thorssen's indictments have nothing to do with his research.  It has to do with embezzling money.

 

This in no way impugns the research that he was associated with (and that he was not the lead researcher on, either.)

 

 

So, sorry, not a blow to the vaccinations-don't-cause-autism research.

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#3 of 32 Old 05-22-2011, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote from article....

 

"When two of the biggest names in vaccine research and support turn out to be guilty of fraud, major deception, lying and making unsubstantiated statements, it really calls into question the validity of their work on the vaccine front … and that's putting it mildly."

 

This was new news to me, so I just thought it might be interesting to others. I didn't mean to upset you so much, WildKingdom.

 

By the way, nobody has ever proven that vaccines don't cause autism.


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#4 of 32 Old 05-22-2011, 02:41 PM
 
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Paul Thorrsen is one of the biggest names in vaccine research? Uh, no. I don't think anyone had ever heard of him until he was indicted.

And no one will EVER prove that vaccines don't cause autism, because you can't prove a negative.

And don't worry, you haven't upset me. Roll my eyes, maybe, but not upset me.
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#5 of 32 Old 05-22-2011, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Can you please tell me some of the biggest names in vaccine research then? I would like to investigate them, to see if they are trustworthy.


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#6 of 32 Old 05-22-2011, 07:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post

Paul Thorrsen is one of the biggest names in vaccine research? Uh, no. I don't think anyone had ever heard of him until he was indicted.

And no one will EVER prove that vaccines don't cause autism, because you can't prove a negative.

And don't worry, you haven't upset me. Roll my eyes, maybe, but not upset me.

Is it necessary to be so condescending?  This used to be a respectful forum. We're all adults, can't we keep it respectful?  Do you want to be considered and respected as the voice of the "pro" vax side or do you only feel the need to put everyone down? As my grandmother used to say, "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."

I don't vax but I'm always interested in "the other side's" point of view, and honestly your posts are rarely considered by me because of the foul attitude behind them. I'm asking you to please keep it professional and considerate. namaste.gif


 

 

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#7 of 32 Old 05-22-2011, 07:48 PM
 
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WildKingdom's tone was appropriate for the entire existence of this particular subforum IMHO.

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#8 of 32 Old 05-22-2011, 07:49 PM
 
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BTW -- I assumed this related to the crashing and burning of the Geiers' careers, but I assume that hasn't been mentioned here?

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#9 of 32 Old 05-23-2011, 05:42 AM
 
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Oh, that's right.  I forgot all about the Geiers.

 

Becky- if you want to research some top names in autism-vaccine research, I suggest you read up of the Geiers.

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Thank you for the Geier information. It is wise to learn about both sides of a debate, whether I like it or not!

 

Now WildKingdom, I have to ask. How can you say that no one will ever prove vaccines don't cause autism? Ever? 

Vaccines cause an immune response, meaning, they "do something" to the recipient. Isn't it possible that somehow, a vaccine could effect a person in a negative way (autism and other health disorders)? If vaccines can cause an immune response, why is it so impossible for them to cause other responses as well?  Why can't we research every ingredient in vaccines, not just thimerisol? Why should we stop looking at vaccines altogether?

 

This has inspired me to begin a new thread. Thanks for the idea!


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#11 of 32 Old 05-23-2011, 10:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post

Old, old news.

 

I suggest you read into things a bit further than mercola.  Thorssen's indictments have nothing to do with his research.  It has to do with embezzling money.

 

This in no way impugns the research that he was associated with (and that he was not the lead researcher on, either.)

 

 

So, sorry, not a blow to the vaccinations-don't-cause-autism research.

 

Yeah, embezzling money that was supposed to be used towards research.   He oversaw millions in grant money from the CDC to provide research on the autism/vaccine link, yet he stole money intended for the research.  How does that have nothing to do with his research?   shrug.gif

 

If someone was given $1,000 to research something and they spent a good portion of that money on themselves and not towards the research, isn't the research done considered incomplete?

 

If you ask me, with a guy like Thorsen, his research isn't trusthworthy at all.


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#12 of 32 Old 05-23-2011, 06:34 PM
 
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"If someone was given $1,000 to research something and they spent a good portion of that money on themselves and not towards the research, isn't the research done considered incomplete?"

 

Your premise assumes that the grant money was, to the penny, the exact minimum amount needed to research the particular issues.  Maybe if he had spent all the money he would have just got even better evidence that vaxes don't cause autism.

 

 

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Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post

Old, old news.

 

I suggest you read into things a bit further than mercola.  Thorssen's indictments have nothing to do with his research.  It has to do with embezzling money.

 

This in no way impugns the research that he was associated with (and that he was not the lead researcher on, either.)

 

 

So, sorry, not a blow to the vaccinations-don't-cause-autism research.


Hmmm. Well, in a court of law he would not make a very good witness. His character would be so suspect that a jury would not likely find his testimony on anything credible. 
 

 

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#14 of 32 Old 05-23-2011, 06:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Your premise assumes that the grant money was, to the penny, the exact minimum amount needed to research the particular issues.  Maybe if he had spent all the money he would have just got even better evidence that vaxes don't cause autism.

 

 



That's weak. Are you condoning his actions?


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                ~Captain Hammer (j/k, it was Plato)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#15 of 32 Old 05-23-2011, 10:21 PM
 
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Oh yes, I regularly condone embezzlement and theft.

 

My understanding, from those who regularly apply for grants, is that you go for the most money you can get.    Let's say I apply for and win a grant for $100 to show that water has three states (liquid, gas and solid).  The fact that it  costs me a buck fifty to prove that water has three states doesn't mean my research is incomplete, even though I'm left with $98.50 of grant money afterwards.

 

 

 

 

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#16 of 32 Old 05-23-2011, 10:31 PM
 
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Also, the studies themselves should be (if problematic) attackable on their face, completely independent of the embezzlement issue.  For example:

 

If the study has a small sample size (due to not being able to locate/test enough subjects due to money issues), that should be apparent.  If there were numerous other tests that would have been valuable to have performed that were not performed (due to money limitations), that should be apparent, etc., etc.

 

So -- either the studies in question, STANDING ON THEIR OWN, are good studies or not.  If they are good studies, it shouldn't matter if they cost $10 or $100,000,000 in terms of evaluating their value.  If they are bad, they are bad, whether that is due to a lack of funding, poor science or whatever.

 

 

 

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Oh yes, I regularly condone embezzlement and theft.

 

My understanding, from those who regularly apply for grants, is that you go for the most money you can get.    Let's say I apply for and win a grant for $100 to show that water has three states (liquid, gas and solid).  The fact that it  costs me a buck fifty to prove that water has three states doesn't mean my research is incomplete, even though I'm left with $98.50 of grant money afterwards.

 

 

 

 


But to embezzle money that is intended for research on a particular topic (and very important and popular topic I might add) while at the same time continuously discrediting the link between autism and vaccines seems a bit fraudulent to me and not legit at all. I believe all of the "studies and research" with his name on it should be pulled since this incident, but that has yet to happen.  Also, how do you know the research conducted regarding the vaccine and autism link was superb? By the sounds of it, you sound very confident that no link between vax and autism will ever be proven and I wonder how you are so confident of that. How do you know there weren't valuable tests/research that were not performed had there been more money? We don't know that, do we? We also don't know how much money it takes to PROVE there is a link as long as they are using proper techniques for the studies.  I honestly don't feel they will ever disclose a link between vaccines and autism simply because they don't want to discover that link. 


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Other than a general "feeling" and a dislike for the actual outcome of the studies involved, can you please describe/critique what you view to be errors within the science/methodology of the studies in question?

 

That's what matters.

 

I would further note that this differs from the Wakefield scenario, in which for Wakefield the $ was in finding the vax/autism link.  Here, the grant monies were available and further payday was not dependent on the actual outcome of the studies themselves.

 

 

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Other than a general "feeling" and a dislike for the actual outcome of the studies involved, can you please describe/critique what you view to be errors within the science/methodology of the studies in question?

 

That's what matters.

 

I would further note that this differs from the Wakefield scenario, in which for Wakefield the $ was in finding the vax/autism link.  Here, the grant monies were available and further payday was not dependent on the actual outcome of the studies themselves.

 

 


I noticed you haven't answered my questions to you above.

 

Anyway, it's not that I "dislike" the outcomes. I don't trust them! There are far too many conflicts of interest when it comes to these studies. 

 

All I can say is that I am not a scientist. I am a concerned parent who asks questions.  I believe people shouldn't get so wrapped up in these studies all of the time and should look around at other's people's stories, because as mentioned, most of the time the individuals doing this studies are linked to where the money is.  Too many parents have noticed their children regress (into autism or other neurological disorders) after vaccines.  I don't believe it is just thimerosal. I believe it is a combination of all of them at one time, making it difficult for the body to dispose of all of the toxins in such a little time. Can you really say it is not an assault to the body? Of course there are other factors involved when it comes to autism, but I certainly think vaccines play a role in it. Again, this is MY personal feeling and it may not be good enough to match your wonderful studies but it is how I feel nonetheless.  I find it all too strange that there are now over 100 vaccines in the pipeline.  If they ever did admit to a link between autism and vaccines or even other neurological disorders, how would they be able to continue to push all of this crap?


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#20 of 32 Old 05-24-2011, 07:00 AM
 
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Answers to your questions:

 

"Also, how do you know the research conducted regarding the vaccine and autism link was superb?"

 

I'm not claiming it was superb.  I am saying it produced the particular results demonstrated in the study, and the proper venue for analyzing the quality of the research is a review of the study results themselves.

 

"By the sounds of it, you sound very confident that no link between vax and autism will ever be proven and I wonder how you are so confident of that. How do you know there weren't valuable tests/research that were not performed had there been more money? We don't know that, do we?"

 

I feel pretty sure that claims about the vax/autism link will, at some point in the future, be thought of the way we think about those (historically) who believed the earth was flat.  A quaint example of ignorance. 

 

We know what tests were performed based on their description in the applicable studies.  Why don't you read the studies in question or look for critiques to determine if there was additional testing that was appropriate that was not performed?  I believe that is the appropriate way forward if you have questions about these particular studies.

 

"I believe people shouldn't get so wrapped up in these studies all of the time and should look around at other's people's stories, because as mentioned, most of the time the individuals doing this studies are linked to where the money is."   

 

If you want to rely on psuedoscience and anecdote that is certainly your right.  So long as you make clear that is what you are relying on, so people can appropriately weigh your opinion.  I would note that (as with the Geiers and Wakefield) there is a lot of money to be made in claiming a vax/autism link and a putative "cure" for autism on the other side as well.

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I will note, as for me, I prefer my medical professionals to be giving me medical advice based on the most current, quality research in their applicable areas of specialization. 

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I will note, as for me, I prefer my medical professionals to be giving me medical advice based on the most current, quality research in their applicable areas of specialization. 


I would too. I would listen to my naturopath first and my conventional medicine doctor second, so we obviously can agree to disagree here on this issue.

 


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I feel pretty sure that claims about the vax/autism link will, at some point in the future, be thought of the way we think about those (historically) who believed the earth was flat.  A quaint example of ignorance. 

 

I do find this interesting, however.  Are you saying those parents, who have seen with their own eyes their children regress and start showing symptoms of autism after vaccinations, are delusional or frauds, or "ignorant"?


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CDC Autism Researcher Indicted for Fraud!!

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/05/22/cdc-autism-researcher-indicted-for-fraud.aspx

 

Tee-hee.


Why the "Tee-hee"?  If you are truly interested in objective research why do you find it amusing that ANY researcher embezzled money or engaged in a behavior that could be seen as compromising the research?  Lots of families have scarce resources but make it a priority to donate hard-earned money to organizations that give grants for autism research. Why do you find it funny if this money was stolen?

 


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#25 of 32 Old 05-24-2011, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm the bad guy because I said tee-hee. Let's give Thorsen a pass though.

 

This is an example of Infighting. The issue is Thorsen , his dishonesty, and his lack of credibility. The issue is not about the "tee-hee". You can ignore the "tee-hee" part if you don't like it.


               "Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."

                ~Captain Hammer (j/k, it was Plato)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#26 of 32 Old 05-24-2011, 10:07 AM
 
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I don't think there is any one answer for all families.

 

I think people can refuse to acknowledge an issue that was apparent prior to vax -- for example, I know a family where their child has SPD, but the parents refused to accept the issue for over year after it was first brought to their attention. 

 

I think some issues also are not apparent early on, and would have developed regardless of vax or not, but the timing of the vaccination and diagnosis can make it look like causation.

 

I also think it can be very powerful to have someone else suggest -- "well, the issues didn't start till AFTER your child was vaccinated, right?"  Memory is not infalliable.  It can be a flexible thing, and I think people with the best of intentions can misremember.

 

 

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I'm the bad guy because I said tee-hee. Let's give Thorsen a pass though.

 

This is an example of Infighting. The issue is Thorsen , his dishonesty, and his lack of credibility. The issue is not about the "tee-hee". You can ignore the "tee-hee" part if you don't like it.



How did I give Thorsen a pass? I'm as angry as heck that he stole money that was supposed to go to autism research!

 

But why should I believe that you are really interested in a serious discussion about this when you find such theft amusing? It's not infigthing to say that starting off with a giggle doesn't seem like the best way to invite an open dialogue on the subject.

 


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How did I give Thorsen a pass? I'm as angry as heck that he stole money that was supposed to go to autism research!

 

But why should I believe that you are really interested in a serious discussion about this when you find such theft amusing? It's not infigthing to say that starting off with a giggle doesn't seem like the best way to invite an open dialogue on the subject.

 

 

About this tee-hee thing. I can only speak for myself but I know the tee-hee didn't come off as being amused that someone embezzled money.   I look at it as people seem to think these researchers researching the vax/autism link can do no wrong and are just about the Holy Grail when it comes to research.  This is far from true, as we see with Thorsen. There are crooked people all over the place, particularly in the vaccine industry. 


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#29 of 32 Old 05-25-2011, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
 
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 ....people seem to think these researchers researching the vax/autism link can do no wrong and are just about the Holy Grail when it comes to research.  This is far from true, as we see with Thorsen. There are crooked people all over the place, particularly in the vaccine industry. 


This is exactly, exactly what I meant! Maybe I should have been a little more mature though. It is not funny when a researcher embezzles money; I think I just used bad humor as a way to deal with the upsetting story.

 


               "Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."

                ~Captain Hammer (j/k, it was Plato)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#30 of 32 Old 05-31-2011, 12:02 AM
 
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In the last 10 years number of people who vaccinate went down and number of children with autism went up.

 

Number of  people who practice AP went up....and so did number of autism cases.

 

So, not vaccinating and AP cause autism.

 

That is obviously ridiculous.

 

Just like an idea that vaccination cause autism based on a original study of 14 children which is way too small of a sample.

 

Many time a cause of an illness is complex combination of factors not just one thing.  One thing which is very apparent it that parents are getting older and older, but no one is want to dicuss the reality of age related DNA damage in egg and sperm

 

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