If Not Vaccines, Then WHAT Causes Autism? - Page 11 - Mothering Forums
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#301 of 325 Old 06-03-2011, 07:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post



 

The flip side is people who are interested in discussing potential causes should be free to discuss potential causes.   

 

The thing is...this is not the SN or a support thread.  

 

It was set up in the vaccine forum (wrong placement perhaps - health might have been better) to discuss potential environmental causes of autism
 

 


I don't disagree with you, and I silently read this thread all the way up until the last few pages when it had already derailed so far that my input was not going to have much affect on that.

 

I do have to wonder why it's in vaccines instead of the health forum though. shrug.gif

 


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#302 of 325 Old 06-03-2011, 07:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by StephandOwen View Post




I don't disagree with you, and I silently read this thread all the way up until the last few pages when it had already derailed so far that my input was not going to have much affect on that.

 

I do have to wonder why it's in vaccines instead of the health forum though. shrug.gif

 



Lol,  in long threads I often feel like I am writing into a vacuum.

 

I think you write real well though and I heard you.  

 

 

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#303 of 325 Old 06-03-2011, 08:39 AM
 
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Why wouldn't vaccination be considered an environmental trigger by the researchers?  What other "trigger" is so assaulting to the immune and nervous systems?

 

What other trigger? An infection by a wild-type virus.

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However, there is a large population of them in the Chicago area, who are patients of Homefirst Health Services, which does not vaccinate. Given Homefirst's large pediatric patient population, they should have a very noticeable number of patients with autism, but they don't.

http://homefirst.com/info-1/vaccine-choice/autism-and-the-homefirst-practice.html

 

So they claim, but they have never allowed anyone to check the medical records of their patients, verify the claim of zero autism, and publish the results. If it is true, they are withholding information that is scientifically valuable that could prevent a lot of suffering. What are they hiding?

 

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A vaccinated/unvaccinated autism study would cost many millions of dollars (as most large studies do), and would require funding, usually either governmental or corporate. The government has refused to fund such a study, even though there are a lot of people asking for it. The National Vaccine Information Center has given up on waiting for the government or private industry to fund that study.

 

That sort of study would never get approved. It is unethical and reprehensible. The study's organizers would have to knowingly and deliberately withhold vaccines from thousands of children for at least the duration of their toddler years, deliberately increasing their risk for diseases that are well-known to cause death and permanent disability (blindness, deafness, loss of neurological functions). Look at the recent deaths from measles in France, pertussis in California and Australia, diphtheria in Australia, etc.

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#304 of 325 Old 06-03-2011, 09:05 AM
 
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So Lazy Gardens, from your posts you seem very confident with vaccines and have no question or doubt in your mind about their safety. Wonderful for you to feel so confident about that. I must ask, can you really sit here and say children are not overvaccinated in this society today? If the answer is yes, well, I wouldn't even know how to discuss it further.  I am certainly not one who would ever feel confident regarding the safety of the vaccine schedule given today and have no doubt in my mind that that amount of toxins is dangerous for children, especially on developing minds/bodies. 


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#305 of 325 Old 06-03-2011, 09:10 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Lazy Gardens View Post

 

That sort of study would never get approved. It is unethical and reprehensible. The study's organizers would have to knowingly and deliberately withhold vaccines from thousands of children for at least the duration of their toddler years, deliberately increasing their risk for diseases that are well-known to cause death and permanent disability (blindness, deafness, loss of neurological functions). Look at the recent deaths from measles in France, pertussis in California and Australia, diphtheria in Australia, etc.


Not only that, but in a "blind" study (I'm guessing the study would have to be blind in order to be legit), one set of the children would have to receive a placebo, and wouldn't know whether or not they had actually been vaccinated.  It's not a study that I would want to see happen, thats for sure.

 

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Not only that, but in a "blind" study (I'm guessing the study would have to be blind in order to be legit), one set of the children would have to receive a placebo, and wouldn't know whether or not they had actually been vaccinated.  It's not a study that I would want to see happen, thats for sure.

 


As a mother of an unvaxed child - I certainly would not allow my child to participate in a blind study such as this. I don't know many parents that would no matter what side of the debate you fall on. Parents that feel vaccinations are important would not be comfortable with that, and I would not allow even the possibility that my child would be vaccinated. I don't think that comparing groups of vaccinated and unvaccinated children is without value however. I certainly would particpate in that. I understand it is not a double blind placebo controlled study, but other types of studies can give valuable information. just my opinion.
 

 


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#307 of 325 Old 06-03-2011, 10:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Lazy Gardens View Post

That sort of study would never get approved. It is unethical and reprehensible. The study's organizers would have to knowingly and deliberately withhold vaccines from thousands of children for at least the duration of their toddler years, deliberately increasing their risk for diseases that are well-known to cause death and permanent disability (blindness, deafness, loss of neurological functions). Look at the recent deaths from measles in France, pertussis in California and Australia, diphtheria in Australia, etc.


Are you serious? And I ask that because there have been politicians who have used the same argument against a vaccinated/unvaccinated study, who clearly have the education to know better. So I don't know if you really think that, or if you are using that argument in an attempt to hide the obvious fact that there are many different types of research designs, and there are already enough completely unvaccinated children to study. A small percentage of the population for sure, but still enough for a study. No ethical issues to worry about. The researchers would probably have to offer the parents of the unvaccinated children the chance to vaccinate, and probably give them information about how important vaccines are, but after that, they'd be in the clear.

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#308 of 325 Old 06-03-2011, 11:04 AM
 
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Are you serious? And I ask that because there have been politicians who have used the same argument against a vaccinated/unvaccinated study, who clearly have the education to know better. So I don't know if you really think that, or if you are using that argument in an attempt to hide the obvious fact that there are many different types of research designs, and there are already enough completely unvaccinated children to study. A small percentage of the population for sure, but still enough for a study. No ethical issues to worry about. The researchers would probably have to offer the parents of the unvaccinated children the chance to vaccinate, and probably give them information about how important vaccines are, but after that, they'd be in the clear.

 

Are you sure about that?  There are definitely enough unvaxed kids to do a study with statistical power?  I suggest you read this post:

http://photoninthedarkness.com/?p=154

 

It's a bit dense, but excellent. The upshot of it is that, no, there are not enough unvaxed children in the USA to do a vaxed vs. unvaxed study that will have statistical power.  And don't say "It's better than nothing!", because it's not.  If the study is not powered well enough, it is nothing.
 

 

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#309 of 325 Old 06-03-2011, 11:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Lazy Gardens View Post

So they claim, but they have never allowed anyone to check the medical records of their patients, verify the claim of zero autism, and publish the results. If it is true, they are withholding information that is scientifically valuable that could prevent a lot of suffering. What are they hiding?


First, I'd really like to know who has made that request. I've never heard of that before. Second, it might be difficult to get the consent of every one of their patients for someone to look through their medical records.

 

I assume you know who has made that request, since you know that it has been refused? If so, please share.

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#310 of 325 Old 06-03-2011, 12:41 PM
 
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As a mother of an unvaxed child - I certainly would not allow my child to participate in a blind study such as this. I don't know many parents that would no matter what side of the debate you fall on. Parents that feel vaccinations are important would not be comfortable with that, and I would not allow even the possibility that my child would be vaccinated. I don't think that comparing groups of vaccinated and unvaccinated children is without value however. I certainly would particpate in that. I understand it is not a double blind placebo controlled study, but other types of studies can give valuable information. just my opinion.
 



As I fall on the other side of the vax debate as you (my ds is fully vaxed), I would also not participate in a study such as this.  You are right about that.  A double blind study of this nature would be unethical, and it would not be possible to run a study such as this due to the ethical concerns.

 

The concern that a pp raised (sorry, can't seem to multi-quote today) about their not being enough non-vaxers to run a study and have it yield statistically valid results is a major concern - particularly if it is a self selected sampling of subjects.  The results of a study composed of self selected individuals would be biased - there is no way around that.  Why?  Because those who don't vax, but don't believe that autism is caused by  vaxes would probably be less likely to participate than those who don't vax and do believe that autism is caused by vaxes.  It would be very difficult to come up with a sampling of individuals who represented enough of a cross section of the population, and that was large enough to yield statistically valuable results, AND that wouldn't be unethical to run. 

 

I think the only way this study would be unbiased and valid would be to run it in a double blind fashion, however, that would be unethical.  There may be this gap in the research, but there isn't a way to do the research in a way that isn't unethical AND that would produce valid, reliable results due to the biases of having a self selected sample.  What we're left with is allowing people to come to their own conclusions and make the best decisions they can for their family.  I'd even guess that there are some people posting on this thread that wouldn't believe the research even if it HAD been done, and would still choose not to vax based on fear surrounding autism.  We have that freedom to make our own decisions, so to each his/her own.

 

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#311 of 325 Old 06-05-2011, 03:10 PM
 
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I wish everyone was force to take Statistic 101 in school. Correlation is not the same as causation. 

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#312 of 325 Old 06-05-2011, 06:32 PM
 
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I had Statistics in college; it was required for my major. I know that a study can have built in biases when the factors are set up and processed.  

 

Vaccines have something to do with autism and the many autoimmune and idoiopathic health problems in our population. Until we know what causes autism, everything, including genetics, environment, and vaccines are suspect.

 

 

Quote:
There are definitely enough unvaxed kids to do a study with statistical power? 

Doctors do not know how many unvaccinated children are in the population.   They do not care.  Doctors simply do not care about patients who do not follow their advice.  

 

Doctors therefore do not know if a patient who does not follow his advice does better than the ones who do follow his advice; there are not even studies that follow patients who ignore the doctors' advice.       A doctor's practice may send a warning letter out to a patient, but that is not a health care - that is a letter and evidence for a lawsuit.  

 

How do I know?  Because I am one, of many unvaxed people.  If I did not post here, you would not know me nor care. 

 

 

The only thing a nonvaxed child is good for is to use to blame a disease outbreak on - that is, a scapegoat.  

 
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I wish everyone was force to take Statistic 101 in school. Correlation is not the same as causation. 



And yet we're being asked to believe that the correlation of VPD decline is due to vaccines alone.  If correlation is not the same as causation for vaccination and autism, then it isn't for the decline of VPDs after the introduction of vaccines either.

 

You just can't have it both ways.

 

And it's actually forceD, not force, and StatisticS, not Statistic, and I aced that class.  Maybe everyone should be forced to take Grammar 101 as well.  If you're going to be condescending, it's far more effective when your grammar and spelling are correct.

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#314 of 325 Old 06-05-2011, 07:21 PM
 
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I am not having it both ways. I was pointing out in my example that  if you just draw conclusion on simple correlation, you can totally "proof" that decline in vaccination rates and increase in AP practice leads to  increase autism rates. I was obviously sarcastic.

 

It is very complex issue on many levels.  There is  issues of what is qualifies as autism by whom. The fact that awareness of something usually leads to increase in diagnosis of that issue.  There is right now increase in the diagnosis of Bipolar in kids. Is there increase in that disorder or is it because providers feel that now it is acceptable to give a child this diagnosis?  For many years it was not considered possible for child to have a bipolar disorder.  Then there  are genetics to consider and we do not not know everything there is to know about genetic causes of many disease. There is also issues of biases and small samples and self selected samples  and so on and so forth.

 

 

  Before the discovery of microorganisms people claimed that things "evil eye", "miasmas" and "dark body humors"  was cause of common disorders.  It seemed perfectly logical at the time.

 

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#315 of 325 Old 06-05-2011, 10:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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It's kind of silly to compare vaccine damage to "evil eye".


               "Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."

                ~Captain Hammer (j/k, it was Plato)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#316 of 325 Old 06-06-2011, 06:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Alenushka View Post

I wish everyone was force to take Statistic 101 in school. Correlation is not the same as causation. 



 Why do you assume that anyone who questions the role of vaccines in autism has not taken statistics. I took statistics in grad school.


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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I had statistics as an undergraduate and as a graduate.  

 

Paul Offit recently called for more studies to prove that autism and vaccines were not related.  

 

Since no one knows what causes autism, is that even scientific?  

 

I thought studies were supposed to be done to discover something, not to prove something. I believe this is called a selective bias.  http://ebmh.bmj.com/content/10/3/67.extract

 

Vaccine promoters often accused non vaccinators of being uneducated, uniformed, and not at all scientific.  That is the big lie!  

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#318 of 325 Old 06-06-2011, 10:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by miriam View Post

 

Paul Offit



censored.gif
 

Biggest slime bag ever! A man who says children can take up to 10,000 vaccines at one time is completely disgusting, and this is the man calling for more studies to disprove the link? A man who is the biggest mouthpiece for Big Pharma? Hearing his name even makes me cringe. I would love to see someone give him 10,000 vaccines at one time. 

 

Sorry, had to vent.  Can't stand that man!

 

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#319 of 325 Old 06-06-2011, 02:03 PM
 
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censored.gif
 

Biggest slime bag ever! A man who says children can take up to 10,000 vaccines at one time is completely disgusting, and this is the man calling for more studies to disprove the link? A man who is the biggest mouthpiece for Big Pharma? Hearing his name even makes me cringe. I would love to see someone give him 10,000 vaccines at one time. 

 

Sorry, had to vent.  Can't stand that man!

 


 

I know what you mean!!  I mean, God, the man developed a vaccine that has saved babies from death by dehydration and has saved hundreds of millions of dollars in health care costs related to morbidity from rotavirus.  That bastard!
 

Oh, wait.  Hmmm...

 

So, what have you done lately?

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21526228

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21624421

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21575665

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21571023

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21521947

 

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#320 of 325 Old 06-06-2011, 02:35 PM
 
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I know what you mean!!  I mean, God, the man developed a vaccine that has saved babies from death by dehydration and has saved hundreds of millions of dollars in health care costs related to morbidity from rotavirus.  That bastard!
 

Oh, wait.  Hmmm...

 

So, what have you done lately?

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21526228

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21624421

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21575665

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21571023

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21521947

 


Are you this arrogant and rude to your patients too?

 


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#321 of 325 Old 06-06-2011, 02:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post

 

I know what you mean!!  I mean, God, the man developed a vaccine that has saved babies from death by dehydration and has saved hundreds of millions of dollars in health care costs related to morbidity from rotavirus.  That bastard!
 

Oh, wait.  Hmmm...

 

So, what have you done lately?

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21526228

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21624421

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21575665

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21571023

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21521947

 


Hmmmm, did I offend the man you admire? So sorry.  Guess you also think 10,000 vaccines at once is just fine for infants.  Teeerrific!

 

I  don't care what links you posted above.  I still think he's slime! You can continue to worship him though. Fine and dandy with methumb.gif

 

BTW, you must be a super multitasker, being a doctor and all, to actually have time to wander on Mothering all the time.  Very impressive indeed~ 

 

 


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#322 of 325 Old 06-06-2011, 03:35 PM
 
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Hmmmm, did I offend the man you admire? So sorry.  Guess you also think 10,000 vaccines at once is just fine for infants.  Teeerrific!

 

I  don't care what links you posted above.  I still think he's slime! You can continue to worship him though. Fine and dandy with methumb.gif

 

BTW, you must be a super multitasker, being a doctor and all, to actually have time to wander on Mothering all the time.  Very impressive indeed~

 

Well, at least you admitted that you don't care about the evidence.

 

And yes, thanks, my multitasking skillz are kick-ass.

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#323 of 325 Old 06-06-2011, 03:50 PM
 
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And yes, thanks, my multitasking skillz are kick-ass.


That's awesome for you because I don't know any doctors who have the time to devote to forum surfing, let alone forum surfing and adding rude comments here and there.

Peacepeace.gif

 


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#324 of 325 Old 06-06-2011, 04:14 PM
 
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Yeah, 242 posts in over 3 years. Cleary, I spend all of my time on mdc. It's 7:13 here. I've been done with work for more than 2 hours.
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#325 of 325 Old 06-06-2011, 04:38 PM
 
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Since this discussion seems to have run it's course, I am closing the thread. If you wish to further explore non-vaccine related causes, statistics, clinical research design, epidemiology etc. pertaining to autism, please feel free to start new threads in Health & Healing.
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