If Not Vaccines, Then WHAT Causes Autism? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 325 Old 05-24-2011, 05:40 PM
 
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I don't think anyone has claimed that vaccines are the only cause of autism, or that unvaccinated kids/kids whose parents do "everything right" cannot be autistic. The spectrum of autism is so incredibly large. I'd even suggest that there are several different conditions that in the body, are vastly different, but produce similar symptoms that fall on the spectrum. Thus, could have completely different causes. Think of a headache. The symptom is pain in the head. Tghe cause, so, what is actually happening in the body, can vary greatly! Brain tumor, caffeine withdrawl, virus, tension, migraine, etc. I suspect that autism spectrum symptoms may be similar. Let's say theres a version that's straight up genetic. No tgrigger, no prevention, just genetically inevitable. Then there's. Cases like hannah poling. Mitochondrial disorder as the underlying cause, triggered by vaccines. Or what about on that's tgrigered by environmentgal toxins,from whatever source. Maybe vacines. Maybe mrcury fillingvs. Lead paint. Whatever. Maybe exposure occured inutero. Someone else mentioned lyme. What about, as mentioned upthread, th gu issues many on the spectrum have? I'm just throwing out idea vomit here. To the point, I think autism may actually. Be several different conditions which are symptomatically similar but biologically unrelated. Sorry about typos. Typing from phone and its being extremely laggy.
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#62 of 325 Old 05-24-2011, 05:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverMoon010

 

On another note, back onto this DSM diagnosis subject, can we really honestly say before there was this great ability to diagnosis autism, there were as many children then (prior to these "new" diagnoses) who actually had autism that went undiagnosed as there are today? Don't you think someone would have noticed that years ago?



Yeah, I can honestly say that.  There were as many children 30 years ago who had autism as there are now, and they just went undiagnosed.  I speak from life experience.  I watched my friend's 9yo son with autism making rapid, jerking, stimmy full-body movements and flashbacked to my brother making the exact same movements at that age.  No one thought anything of it in the 80s.  shrug.gif  Just kids doing weird kid things. 

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#63 of 325 Old 05-24-2011, 05:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LiLStar View Post

 To the point, I think autism may actually. Be several different conditions which are symptomatically similar but biologically unrelated.


I've thought about that too quite extensively.  I think we're on to something. 

 


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Yeah, I can honestly say that.  There were as many children 30 years ago who had autism as there are now, and they just went undiagnosed.  I speak from life experience.  I watched my friend's 9yo son with autism making rapid, jerking, stimmy full-body movements and flashbacked to my brother making the exact same movements at that age.  No one thought anything of it in the 80s.  shrug.gif  Just kids doing weird kid things. 


How are you so sure there were as many children then as there are now with diagnosable autism/neurological disorders? Of course there were children back then in the '80s who had neurological problems but as many as there are today? I doubt it.

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#65 of 325 Old 05-24-2011, 07:08 PM
 
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Actually, if you discount the Aspergers population, which is a new criteria, there are no more people being diagnosed now than there were years and years ago.  The difference is the label.  A lot of kids who today get an Autism or PDD-NOS diagnosis, would have gotten a MR-NOS, or Childhood Schizophrenia and things along those lines.  Those dx's have fallen at the same rate that Autism has increased, negating an actual rise in Autism.  The only rise is in accurate diagnosis

 

If you take into account the increase in Aspergers, then you also need to take into account that with the rise of computer science, a whole group of people who used to just be the "weird uncle", etc, now suddenly have more earning power, thus more social status, thus making them more desirable as mates.  When a person with Autism has kids, there is a high probability that kid will inherit that Autism

 

And the very idea that anybody would still consider vaccines as a cause is proof that people don't really care about the actual science.  You can have an opinion, but you can't change the facts and be believable.  

 

 

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No, he did not.

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Originally Posted by SneakyPie View Post
Riiiiight.  Because having religious visions is totally the same as breaches of medical ethics, financial conflict of interest, and falsifying data.  All of which Andy Wakefield did.

 

 



 

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#67 of 325 Old 05-24-2011, 08:03 PM
 
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Wakefield did not do any of those things.
 

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Except that was exactly what happened with Wakefield. He was hailed as the person who found out what caused autism. And then later it was discovered he falsified documents, accepted money as a conflict of interest, performed unnecessary, painful tests on kids, etc., etc.


 

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#68 of 325 Old 05-24-2011, 08:10 PM
 
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You should contact Dr. Hertz-Picciotto of the UC Davis MIND Institute with your information.

http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/news/autism-and-environment
 

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Actually, if you discount the Aspergers population, which is a new criteria, there are no more people being diagnosed now than there were years and years ago.  The difference is the label.  A lot of kids who today get an Autism or PDD-NOS diagnosis, would have gotten a MR-NOS, or Childhood Schizophrenia and things along those lines.  Those dx's have fallen at the same rate that Autism has increased, negating an actual rise in Autism.  The only rise is in accurate diagnosis.


 

 

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#69 of 325 Old 05-24-2011, 08:23 PM
 
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So you're going to trust your "study" of 2 people more than research done at the UC Davis Mind Institute published in a peer reviewed journal?

http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/news/autism-and-environment
 

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There were as many children 30 years ago who had autism as there are now, and they just went undiagnosed.  I speak from life experience.  I watched my friend's 9yo son with autism making rapid, jerking, stimmy full-body movements and flashbacked to my brother making the exact same movements at that age.  No one thought anything of it in the 80s.  shrug.gif  Just kids doing weird kid things. 


 

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http://journals.lww.com/epidem/Abstract/2009/01000/The_Rise_in_Autism_and_the_Role_of_Age_at.16.aspx

 

This link is to the Hertz-Piccioto study. Unfortunately, you need a subscription or to buy the article to read the whole thing. However, one interesting thing in the abstract was how they measured autism numbers. It was "based on individuals eligible for state-funded services." That does bring up further questions, such as was the same funding available throughout the period, what was the awareness level of the resources provided by the state, does the economy have anything to do with people's willingness to jump through the hoops and maybe qualify for aid, etc. Just for fun, here's the whole abstract. I don't think this study is the be-all-end-all, but it does provide some interesting data. It looks like Hertz-Piccioto has done a fair bit of research into autism & its causes, if anyone is interested in looking her stuff up.

 

 

Abstract

 

Background: Autism prevalence in California, based on individuals eligible for state-funded services, rose throughout the 1990s. The extent to which this trend is explained by changes in age at diagnosis or inclusion of milder cases has not been previously evaluated.

Methods: Autism cases were identified from 1990 through 2006 in databases of the California Department of Developmental Services, which coordinates services for individuals with specific developmental disorders. The main outcomes were population incident cases younger than age 10 years for each quarter, cumulative incidence by age and birth year, age-specific incidence rates stratified by birth year, and proportions of diagnoses by age across birth years.

Results: Autism incidence in children rose throughout the period. Cumulative incidence to 5 years of age per 10,000 births rose consistently from 6.2 for 1990 births to 42.5 for 2001 births. Age-specific incidence rates increased most steeply for 2- and 3-year olds. The proportion diagnosed by age 5 years increased only slightly, from 54% for 1990 births to 61% for 1996 births. Changing age at diagnosis can explain a 12% increase, and inclusion of milder cases, a 56% increase.

Conclusions: Autism incidence in California shows no sign yet of plateauing. Younger ages at diagnosis, differential migration, changes in diagnostic criteria, and inclusion of milder cases do not fully explain the observed increases. Other artifacts have yet to be quantified, and as a result, the extent to which the continued rise represents a true increase in the occurrence of autism remains unclear.

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No, he did not.



 


Yes, he did.  And got smacked, retracted, and stripped of his medical license for it.

 

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Here is the Lancet's retraction statement. http://download.thelancet.com/flatcontentassets/pdfs/S0140673610601754.pdf However, his patients were "consecutively referred," and the rules did not require separate ethical approval for treating patients. You'll notice that "falsified data" was not mentioned in the retraction statement, nor was "financial conflicts of interest."

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The thing really that should be included in this debate is the risk of withholding vaccinations from your children.  In 2003 the national health services of Denmark released a study of almost 500,000 children (every child in the country born after 1990 until the end of the study) comparing the rate of autism in children receiving the previous formulation of vaccines with the thimerasol-free ones and showed now change int he rate of autism (this study was conducted over 13 years).  Would you rather your child have a lower risk for autism (although not proven to be true in the first place) and get an illness like polio or tetanus?  Have any of you ever seen children with these conditions?  I have.  In my practice we have seen a sharp increase in the incidence of pertussis (a disease which can definitely kill infants - seen that too).  In fact, in California, it was declared an epidemic in 2010.  I have treated more cases of pertussis in the last 8 months than I had the previous 5 years.  The overwhelming theme of the kids getting diagnosed - unvaccinated children.  The ones who were vaccinated and got it were infants 3-12 months who were yet to be fully vaccinated yet because they were too young to have completed the sequence.  Believe you me, I would much rather as a parent take care of a child with autism than one crippled from polio (think of FDR or all the children who spent years in an iron lung back in the early part of the 20th century).  There's a reason men like Salk and Sabin were given or considered for the Nobel Prize in medicine.  It's because their work has been proven to be effective.  As a society, think of all the lives that have been saved and allowed to endure because of vaccines.  A lot of the parents who aren't vaccinating their children may very well have died as children had it not been for vaccinations.  Think of smallpox and how it has been eradicated from the world save for a few research labs in the US and Russia since 1978.  What I want these parents to do is go to sub-Saharan Africa, or India, or Bangladesh and tell those parents to not vaccinate their children and see the reaction they will get.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ma2two View Post

So you're going to trust your "study" of 2 people more than research done at the UC Davis Mind Institute published in a peer reviewed journal?

http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/news/autism-and-environment
 



 


You don't need to throw science in my face.  I'm a biochemistry student. 

 


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Originally Posted by Jennifer Z View Post

And the very idea that anybody would still consider vaccines as a cause is proof that people don't really care about the actual science.  You can have an opinion, but you can't change the facts and be believable.  

 


And the very idea that anybody would consider that the government officials, big pharma, etc, are actually warm and fuzzy people who actually care about the health of the people is just, well, absurd. Again, I do not feel vaccines are 100% the one and only cause of autism but I do believe children are "tipped' after receiving a number of vaccines.  I do believe vaccines are most certainly a contributor to autism, and really, is that so out in left field to say? Knowing all of the toxins in them and how many they receive, let alone at one time? Really?

 

Anyway, to believe studies that are funded by the pharmaceutical companies is far beyond my capability.  If you truly feel the research is "actual science" then that is most certainly your perogative, but you obviously are not aware how this research is conducted and who backs it.  If you think it is independent researchers, think again.  When money is involved, people get greedy. 

 

Very short video (only 3 minutes), CBS, noting these financial ties and conflicts of interest: You can choose to ignore all of this, but it doesn't make it less real.

 

http://www.gaia-health.com/articles51/000061-Autism-Increase.shtml 

 

 

Aside from the video above, the article makes a good point:

 

"The point that most often seems lost in the arguments claiming no connection between vaccinations and autism is the lack of explanation for why children who were perfectly normal before vaccinations become ill afterwards. This is not how autism developed in children before the current pandemic. Until about 30 years ago, children were born with autism. They never developed normally. Most of the children who now have autism start life with normal development—and then go backwards, developing symptoms of autism. "


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Originally Posted by Jennifer Z View Post
I think the desire for a "cause" is because we put such a negative stigma on Autism.  We think that if we can make a list, then it can be somebody's "fault" and "it can't happen to me because I did everything right".  I think it is designed to make us feel justified in discriminating against people with different brains.


I agree. My relationship with ds1 improved so much when I stopped viewing him as "damaged" and stopped trying to figure out what went wrong. (Maybe if I had given birth in a field of wild flowers on an organic tarp...) He is who he is, and autism is only one aspect.

 

 

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Originally Posted by Jennifer Z View Post

Actually, if you discount the Aspergers population, which is a new criteria, there are no more people being diagnosed now than there were years and years ago.  The difference is the label.  A lot of kids who today get an Autism or PDD-NOS diagnosis, would have gotten a MR-NOS, or Childhood Schizophrenia and things along those lines.  Those dx's have fallen at the same rate that Autism has increased, negating an actual rise in Autism.  The only rise is in accurate diagnosis

 

Ditto. Autism today is a lot different than the autism of generations past; it has become a spectrum, not a diagnosis solely limited to the profoundly autistic. There's also more understanding of how autism can be "masked" by other diagnoses, like Down Syndrome, intellectual disabilities or deafness, for example. Autism is also much visible today; kids who would have been segregated in self-contained classrooms or special schools are now mainstreamed with typically-developing students. 

 

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Totally agree with you here. I think it's a combination of factors including genetics and environmental.  The questions that need to be answered are which genes (there has been research about this so they are just beginning to isolate certain genes they feel may be involved with autism) and which environmental factors and in which combinations.

 

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I don't see why it can't be genetic AND caused by environmental factors (whether in the womb or out). So lets say there's an "autism gene" and its passed through families. Can't someone be "prone" to it, without having it? Maybe the autism gene + (insert environmental factor of choice here) = autism? There are lots of things that the tendency toward them is passed genetically that need to be "triggered". Maybe members of a family are particularly prone to addictive behaviors. That doesn't mean that out pops an alcoholic from birth. If the individual who is potentially prone to alcoholism chooses to abstain from alcohol, or be very, very careful with setting personal limits and sticking to them, well.. then they AREN'T an alcoholic. Breast cancer has a strong genetic link. Doesn't mean there aren't things that can increase the risk, or other things that can reduce the risk. 



 

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Riiiiight.  Because having religious visions is totally the same as breaches of medical ethics, financial conflict of interest, and falsifying data.  All of which Andy Wakefield did.

 

And being burned at the stake is also totally the same as a doctor being censured for the above breaches.

 


Riiiightttt. You totally missed my point. Im not making a comparison of crimes here or a comparison of punsihments.

 

As for you claim that the research has been done that exonerates all vaccines (antigens, excipients ect both singly and in combination) from playing any role in the development of autism - you are wrong. As you said up thread to another poster, you are entilted to your opinion but not your own facts. Since the ONLY vaccine that has been studied in relation to autism is the MMR and the ONLY excipient that has been studied in relation to autism is Thimerosol, I can't see how you possibly can say the research has been done. There are no studies of combinations of excipients found in current vaccines specifically in relation to ASD (although there are studies that show a synergistic toxicity between thimerosol, aluminum, lead, other metals and neomycin (various combinations) in relation to a neurological problems and cell death). As silvermoon said - if that satisfies you - good for you. It doesn't satisfy me.
 

 

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Actually, if you discount the Aspergers population, which is a new criteria, there are no more people being diagnosed now than there were years and years ago.  The difference is the label.  A lot of kids who today get an Autism or PDD-NOS diagnosis, would have gotten a MR-NOS, or Childhood Schizophrenia and things along those lines.  Those dx's have fallen at the same rate that Autism has increased, negating an actual rise in Autism.  The only rise is in accurate diagnosis

 

If you take into account the increase in Aspergers, then you also need to take into account that with the rise of computer science, a whole group of people who used to just be the "weird uncle", etc, now suddenly have more earning power, thus more social status, thus making them more desirable as mates.  When a person with Autism has kids, there is a high probability that kid will inherit that Autism

 

And the very idea that anybody would still consider vaccines as a cause is proof that people don't really care about the actual science.  You can have an opinion, but you can't change the facts and be believable.  

 

 



  What?  To categorically say that those of us who don't have a case closed attitude about what is happening to a generation of children and that we don't care about the science is wrong. YOU are entitrled to your opinion but all the facts are not in yet - so case NOT closed.

 

As for the notion that it is just better diagnosing - I disagree. PDD was included in the DSM-III in 1980. PDD-NOS appeared in the DSM-II-R in 1987. and Childhood Disintergrative Disorder was in the DSM-II in 1968. The only addition has been Aspereger's in 1994, a condition which had previously  been categorized under either Childhood Onset Pervasive Developmental Disorder, Atypical Developmental Disorder or PDD-NOS. . The diagnostic criteria for autism went through a corrective narrowing in 1994, adjsuting for apparent false-positives noted in the DSM-III-R and converging with ICD-10 whIch made the diagnosis of autism more exclusive and the non autism spectrum disorders became more clearly defined. I agree that there were kids that likely went undiagnosed and were considered 'quirky'. I'm sure this would account for a certain percentage increase - but not the massive increase we are seeing. Also diagnostic substitution as a reason for increasing numbers has not been supported in the literature. In fact in 1 study in 2002 that initially concluded that diagnostic substitution with mental retardation accounted for the change in prevalence - after the author's analytical errors were corrected and a re-analysis of the data done - the author (croen et al) changed his conclusion to read "Diagnostic substitution does not appear to account for the increased trend in autism prevalence. There are many other studies that have failed to support this notion as well.

 

 

Sponheim E. Changing criteria of autistic disorders:a comparison of the ICD-10 research criteria and DSM-IV with DSM-III-R, CARS, and ABC.

J Austism Dev Disord, 1996; 26(5): 513-25

 


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No he didn't - yes he did - no he didn't - yes he did. What is this jr high?

 

Look here's the situation. There are those that think Wakefield is guilty because the GMC says he is and that is good enough for them. There are those that do not accept this and feel he has been railroaded and made an example of - this has happened multiple times in our history to scientists and other medical people that have dared to stray from the status quo. Bickering like school children about it isn't going to change anyone's mind.  

 

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Yes, he did.  And got smacked, retracted, and stripped of his medical license for it.

 



 


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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The thing really that should be included in this debate is the risk of withholding vaccinations from your children.  In 2003 the national health services of Denmark released a study of almost 500,000 children (every child in the country born after 1990 until the end of the study) comparing the rate of autism in children receiving the previous formulation of vaccines with the thimerasol-free ones and showed now change int he rate of autism (this study was conducted over 13 years).  Would you rather your child have a lower risk for autism (although not proven to be true in the first place) and get an illness like polio or tetanus?  Have any of you ever seen children with these conditions?  I have.  In my practice we have seen a sharp increase in the incidence of pertussis (a disease which can definitely kill infants - seen that too).  In fact, in California, it was declared an epidemic in 2010.  I have treated more cases of pertussis in the last 8 months than I had the previous 5 years.  The overwhelming theme of the kids getting diagnosed - unvaccinated children.  The ones who were vaccinated and got it were infants 3-12 months who were yet to be fully vaccinated yet because they were too young to have completed the sequence.  Believe you me, I would much rather as a parent take care of a child with autism than one crippled from polio (think of FDR or all the children who spent years in an iron lung back in the early part of the 20th century).  There's a reason men like Salk and Sabin were given or considered for the Nobel Prize in medicine.  It's because their work has been proven to be effective.  As a society, think of all the lives that have been saved and allowed to endure because of vaccines.  A lot of the parents who aren't vaccinating their children may very well have died as children had it not been for vaccinations.  Think of smallpox and how it has been eradicated from the world save for a few research labs in the US and Russia since 1978.  What I want these parents to do is go to sub-Saharan Africa, or India, or Bangladesh and tell those parents to not vaccinate their children and see the reaction they will get.


 Tell us something we don't hear every day - give us something new. I don't live in those countries. Making a comparison of morbidity and mortaility between my life and the life of someone in the areas you have mentioned is like comparing apples and roast beef.

 

In 1976, Dr. Jonas Salk  testified that the live-virus vaccine (used almost ex-clusively in the U.S. from the early 1960s to 2000) was the "prin-cipal if not sole cause" of all reported polio cases in the U.S. since 1961.

 

 

He was also quoted as saying  "When you inoculate children with a polio vaccine you don’t sleep well for two or three weeks"


As for it's effectiveness it's the usual story. From 1923 to 1953, before the Salk vaccine was introduced, the polio death rate in the United States and England had already declined on its own by 47 percent and 55 percent, respectively. Statistics show a similar decline in other European countries as well.  And when the vaccine did become available, many European countries questioned its effectiveness and refused to systematically inoculate their citizens. Yet, polio epidemics also ended in these countries. And what of the diagnostic reclassification of polio that occurred right after the vaccine came into widespread use?? As for FDR since his spinal fluid was never examined - a diagnosis of polio was assumed since it was endemic at the time. However in more recent review of his disease(2003) - a diagnosis of Guillan-Barre is far more likely. As for smallpox - well it was not the vaccine that saved us from smallpox. It may have played a role, but certainly not the sole cause. In fact communities that did not enforce compulsory smallpox vaccination had the LOWEST rates and deaths of smallpox and those that did favor it and had the highest rates of vaccine compliance had the worse outbreaks in history.

 


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#83 of 325 Old 05-25-2011, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't know where to start.

 

Many of you missed this brilliant post by Ema-adama, so I hope she doesn't mind if I bring it up here. It seems to fit perfectly....

 

http://passionlessdrone.wordpress.com/2011/05/12/the-interconnectedness-of-the-brain-behavior-and-immunology-and-the-difficult-to-overstate-flaccidity-of-the-correlation-is-not-causation-argument/

 

Quote:

All of the studies I have listed above tell us something similar; that the immune system is clearly, unmistakably playing a part in a lot of conditions classically considered neurological and diagnosed behaviorally.

 

 

 

So, this is the truth, and it will offend most of you......People do not know a darn thing. We have been studying, researching, and learning throughout our entire existence. The more we learn, the more it seems we don't understand. We do not have this life figured out yet, and I don't know if we ever will. How many times throughout history were we wrong about something scientific or medical?  (Planet Pluto, eggs are good, no wait, they are bad,  what is junk DNA, DDT,  DTP, OPV, x-ray pregnant women to see pelvic size, asbestos, on and on). If you look throughout history, you will find a trail of false claims and bad science (or, learning experiences if you are optimistic). This continues to happen, and it won't stop. Medicine and science are always evolving, and progress will come to a dead end when we stop asking questions.

 

Once again, it is not a crime to study autism and any possible causes. The real crime is the censoring!!


 
 
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#84 of 325 Old 05-25-2011, 08:54 AM
 
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Beckybird, I could not agree more! The more know, the more we know we don't know. And it will always be thus.

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#85 of 325 Old 05-25-2011, 09:27 AM
 
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Hmm, risking autism, which is at least 1 in 110 children, or risking polio, which there has been ZERO cases in the U.S. since 1979 (other than those actually caused by the old live virus vaccine), or tetanus, which is about 30 cases in the U.S. per year, out of a population of 310,000,000, mostly in people over 40 and heroin users. Tough decision, I know.

 

Are you in the U.S.? Are you sure you've seen children with polio and tetanus? Both? Wow.

 

I and my kids have had pertussis. Yes, I'd rather them get pertussis than autism. In fact, we are due for another bout of it at any time, since the last one was over 5 years ago. We've got the sodium ascorbate handy.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pedsdoc4vax View Post

Would you rather your child have a lower risk for autism (although not proven to be true in the first place) and get an illness like polio or tetanus?  Have any of you ever seen children with these conditions?  I have.

 

In my practice we have seen a sharp increase in the incidence of pertussis 



 

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#86 of 325 Old 05-25-2011, 09:39 AM
 
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While the vaccines/autism discussion is interesting, fear of autism is by  no means the reason I dont vax. Wouldn't even make the top 10. The increase in autoimmune disorders is MUCH more disturbing to me, and having some in the family on both sides gives me and my kids high enough risk already. quite frankly, I WOULD rather risk polio than MS. At least the former can be cured. The *very first time* I took my newborn dd to the ped, knowing my family history with MS and guillan barre, brought up *before I said anything* if, due to family history, I was wanting to delay vax or just skip them altogether? Really. 

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#87 of 325 Old 05-25-2011, 09:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiLStar View Post

While the vaccines/autism discussion is interesting, fear of autism is by  no means the reason I dont vax. Wouldn't even make the top 10. The increase in autoimmune disorders is MUCH more disturbing to me



I completely agree with this.

 

VPDs are treatable and recoverable in the U.S., except in very extreme cases.  Vaccine injuries are much harder to treat and recover from, and when the vaccine inserts include death as a potential and known side effect, it should give any parent pause.


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#88 of 325 Old 05-25-2011, 09:49 AM
 
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The immune system plays a large role in autism. Your children are at higher risk of autism with your family history of autoimmune diseases.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiLStar View Post

While the vaccines/autism discussion is interesting, fear of autism is by  no means the reason I dont vax. Wouldn't even make the top 10. The increase in autoimmune disorders is MUCH more disturbing to me, and having some in the family on both sides gives me and my kids high enough risk already. 


 

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#89 of 325 Old 05-25-2011, 10:05 AM
 
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Yes I am in the US.  And even with the small incidence of Polio and Tetanus in this country (directly attributed to our vaccination rate compared to third world countries where these diseases are still endemic), the risk of an epidemic reoccurring is possible, one, due to the decreased incidence of vaccination, and, two, due to the high rate of immigration from endemic countries of people who aren't vaccinated and likely exposed.  I'm not saying that epidemics would happen but the risk is increasing.  And yes, I have seen patients with these in the US (in non-immigrants).  Yes, the polio incidents in the past were attributed to the oral Sabin live vaccine (not the killed injectable Salk vaccine), but in some countries around the world who had little resources, the oral vaccine for a while was what was affordable and given.  The reason in the 1930s and 1940s that the incidence was decreasing before the vaccine was likely due to better water treatment at the time as polio is transmitted in the fecal-oral manner.  But the incidence was still very high even with this reduction.  The ultimate reduction in incidence has been directly related to increased administration.  As a doc, I can't deny that previous history of Guillain-Barre in family or personally is a detractor from vaccination.  What age were your kids when they had pertussis? Pertussis in adults is rather minor so I won't contribute your having it as all that much, but if your kids were under one then that is serious as those are the kids who will go apneic while coughing.  And don't give me this crap that you will just get antibiotics for pertussis - the reason we give antibiotics for pertussis is not to treat it but to prevent transmission to other susceptible people.  Pertussis immunity wanes over times, whether vaccinated or not, which is the reason post-partum moms and dads are asked for a pertussis booster to protect their immune-immature neonate.  One thing I have found is that a lot of parents who don't vaccinate their kids are the ones who also request antibiotics for any viral illness or ear infection (the prevnar vaccine has been shown to decrease the incidence of otitis media) but don't complain about the possible "toxins" in antibiotics either.  This is also leading to increased antibiotic resistance as well as increased incidence of Clostridium difficile colitis.  When I see parents whose kids come in with vaccine-preventable illness (except for Rotavirus which only has a 60-75% strain coverage) and they deliberately chose not to vaccinate, I sympathize with the child but not the parent.

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#90 of 325 Old 05-25-2011, 10:15 AM
 
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Tetanus is an easy one for me. If I have any concerns that a given injury is a serious risk for tetanus, we'll go straight to the ER for the immune globulin and the vax. 

 

I'm surprised your experience is that parents who don't vax request abx. I can't speak for others, but I'm hesitant to accept an rx myself. And I AM concerned about the ingredients in childrens' medications. Thats why, if an rx is really necessary, I go to a compounding pharmacy and discuss my concerns with the pharmacist. I make sure there are no artificial colors, sweeteners, or flavors. They use natural flavoring and sweetener, and no coloring. It costs me $80 out of pocket when I could go to rite aid and get a disgusting bright pink artificial cherry sucralose-filled medication for free. So, yes, I put my money, literally, where my mouth is :)


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