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Vaccinations > If Not Vaccines, Then WHAT Causes Autism?
WildKingdom's Avatar WildKingdom 08:05 PM 05-26-2011


Quote:
Originally Posted by BeckyBird View Post

 This is meant to be a topic of learning, discussing, sharing, etc. I promise, I did not intend to hurt or offend anybody here.

 

Here is a neat site I found. Maybe it is old news to some of you, but it's new to me!

13. Developmental Regression and Mitochondrial Dysfunction in a Child With Autism

Journal of Child Neurology / Volume 21, Number 2, February 2006
Jon S. Poling, MD, PhD, Department of Neurology and Neurosurgery
Johns Hopkins Hospital

This article showed that 38% of Kennedy Krieger Institute autism patients studied had one marker for impaired oxidative phosphorylation (mitochondrial dysfunction), and 47% had a second marker.

Excerpt: "Children who have (mitochondrial-related) dysfunctional cellular energy metabolism might be more prone to undergo autistic regression between 18 and 30 months of age if they also have infections or immunizations at the same time.

 

 


Becky-

 

There's a pretty frickin' big conflict of interest in this article.  See if you can figure out what it is and get back to us.



Lollybrat's Avatar Lollybrat 08:20 PM 05-26-2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by NatureMom2Two View Post

He is starting his Kindergarten year already able to read my copy of the Wall Street Journal. And he is proud to have autism. He sees it as an attribute, not a disability. But yes, in his case, the cause of his autism and hyperlexia are known, and they are 100% genetic.

Thank you for sharing more information about your son. My son also has autism with hyperlexia. Hyperlexia is such a wonderful and amazing gift, isn't it? My DS started reading at age 2, before he even started to talk. We have used written language and the gift of hyperlexia to teach him everything.

My son just turned 7 and is partially mainstreamed in the first grade. He is academically advanced in reading and math and has a photographic memory. However his verbal language processing difficulties and social impairment are very challenging. He is proud of having autism and loves attending autism events.

We had a chromosome microarray done on DS last year. I kinda expected that it would find something on chromosome 15. (DS also has Oculocutaneous Albinism and the Type 2 form is located in the same area of chromosome 15 where IDIC 15 occurs, so it seemed obvious to expect something there.). To our shock, we found out that DS has a micro deletion on chromosome 19. Chromosome 19 disorders are very rare and DS's deletion is so unusual that no one can tell us for sure what it means.

DS had a cystic hygroma in utero, so he had developmental and neurological anomalies from the very start. Again, no one can tell us how this is related to his autism or to his chromosome micro deletion . But it is my hope that future research will one day help us understand these factors.
NatureMom2Two's Avatar NatureMom2Two 08:55 PM 05-26-2011

Thank you, too, Lollybrat! My son sounds a lot like yours. He also began to read at about age two, and continues to read more than spontaneously speak. Language is very hard for him, and his social behaviors are certainly, at times, problematic. He also has an auditory processing disorder and fine motor delay.

Our situation, too, is rare since our childrens' defect does not appear to be de-novo, or random. It does appear to be a function of combined DNA. My daughter inherited the maternal defect and, at three, is otherwise typical excepting her seizures. (She may have a learning disability though, at this time, there is no evidence to that end.) Our son is profoundly affected, having inhereted both maternal and paternal defects. And yes, as with all the chromosomal stuff, there is data lacking. Just not enough kids to study. We have but two of 700 in the US with like duplications along the 15th chromosome. The absence of information is, at times, frustrating...but perhaps a blessing in that there is no predetermined path.

 

I'm glad to hear your child has also embraced the diagnosis. I think that is my biggest victory as a mom. Instead of feeling shame or alienation, he feels pride. If we can keep that esteem as he goes through school, it will be a total win. Kudos to you for imparting that kind of confidence. It is so essential for all children, and more still when you have a difference!


beckybird's Avatar beckybird 09:43 PM 05-26-2011


Quote:
Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post

Becky-

 

There's a pretty frickin' big conflict of interest in this article.  See if you can figure out what it is and get back to us.



Was anybody ever bullied in school?

Well, welcome to the world of internet bullying.

WildKingdom, you are one classy gal.


WildKingdom's Avatar WildKingdom 04:56 AM 05-27-2011


Quote:
Originally Posted by BeckyBird View Post





Was anybody ever bullied in school?

Well, welcome to the world of internet bullying.

WildKingdom, you are one classy gal.

I'm not bullying you.  You cited an article that you seem to feel makes a big point regarding your argument that vaccines might be a cause of autism.  I'm asking you if you know about the massive conflict of interest behind it.

 

Since clearly you don't, I'll tell you.

 

The lead author of the article, John Poling, is the father of the child in the article that he wrote.  He was also a litigant in the vaccine court at the time that the article was written.  He disclosed neither of those pretty big issues in the article.  That is not, in general, acceptable protocol when publishing scientific works.

 

My point is not to bully you.  I want to make the point that you can't just pop onto random blogs and forums that link to a couple of abstracts and call it "research."  You need to actually read the article, first of all, not just the abstract.  Then you need to research the research.  You need to read up on the authors and see what else they've published, and if there is any other, er, interesting information about themself that they might not have been upfront about.
 

 


SilverMoon010's Avatar SilverMoon010 07:15 AM 05-27-2011

Since we're talking about genetics vs. environmental factors, and since we are in the vaccination forum, why haven't any studies been performed on the rate at which autism is diagnosed in the vaccinated vs. unvaccinated? Meaning, I would be interested in seeing if autism is diagnosed sooner in the unvaccinated, where there are never signs of "normal' development and the child is very far from developmental milestones, thus never showing signs of regression (genetics), versus the rate it is diagnosed in vaccinated children, showing all signs of normal development, hitting all developmental milestones, and thus later, regressing (environmental).  This may not show anything at all, but they should be performing these types of studies if they are really interested in this issue. I'd be curious to see if those who are not vaccinated at all show signs of complete normal development for the first year or two and then all of the sudden regress, or if there was never a sign of normal development from the start. If they have done a study such as this, please provide. 

 

ETA: (Note, I am not saying this is how it happens in all children who are are vaccinated. I am only using it as an example since a lot of parents claim their children were developing normally and then noticed a regression after vaccinations. It's used for terms of this discussion and the argument as to whether vaccines can cause autism.)


Marnica's Avatar Marnica 08:22 AM 05-27-2011



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post



I'm not bullying you.  You cited an article that you seem to feel makes a big point regarding your argument that vaccines might be a cause of autism.  I'm asking you if you know about the massive conflict of interest behind it.

 

Since clearly you don't, I'll tell you.

 

The lead author of the article, John Poling, is the father of the child in the article that he wrote.  He was also a litigant in the vaccine court at the time that the article was written.  He disclosed neither of those pretty big issues in the article.  That is not, in general, acceptable protocol when publishing scientific works.

 

My point is not to bully you.  I want to make the point that you can't just pop onto random blogs and forums that link to a couple of abstracts and call it "research."  You need to actually read the article, first of all, not just the abstract.  Then you need to research the research.  You need to read up on the authors and see what else they've published, and if there is any other, er, interesting information about themself that they might not have been upfront about.
 

 


You make a good point about this article. This is the problem with a great deal of research done today. There needs to be far more transparency IMO.

I think what Becky objects to (I'm just guessing here) is the WAY in which you make your point. There is a way to do it without sounding imperious and condesending. Perhaps that is not your intent and I appreciate that sometimes when one is writing something it can "sound" a certain way that was unintended. This thread has been a shining example of people taking offense to posts that were not intended to ruffle anyone's feathers. Oh well.


SneakyPie's Avatar SneakyPie 08:28 AM 05-27-2011


Quote:
Originally Posted by miriam View Post

 

 

To the doctor, neither Salk nor Sabin were ever nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize and neither of them ever received a Nobel Peace Prize.  Do you know why?

 



Yes, because in fact Salk was nominated for the Nobel Prize in Medicine in 1955 and 1956.  Good grief.


Calliope84's Avatar Calliope84 09:05 AM 05-27-2011


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverMoon010 View Post

 


 

Have they ever done research of the cumulative effects of all vaccine ingredients? No, yet they keep adding more and more. 

 

Have they researched the vaccinated vs. unvaccinated populations? No. I have yet to see this study.

 

So, to be frank, the research has NOT been done. That's great if the research done satisfies you and you are happy with it. I am not, however.  There are too many questions left unanswered.



Yeah, that.



Quote:
Originally Posted by witchygrrl View Post

LiLStar, I'm with you. I think autism is caused by having that genetic component triggered by something environmental.


Me,too.

 

 

I am absolutely not bothered by the "blame the mother" idea. I do the best I can and if something I did somehow causes problems for my kids later, well, I did the best I knew how to do. We now know mothers drinking alcohol and not getting enough folic acid while pregnant can cause birth defects.... is that "blaming the mother"? I think not. Women used to drink all the time while  pregnant, but now we know so we don't do it. We try our best to take our vitamins and eat healthy even through the morning sickness. Maybe my child isn't old enough for me to be experiencing any "mommy guilt" - she is only 6 months old. But I try not to be too hard on myself. We all make our decisions  based on the information we have at the time we make them. So I'm all for research  and more information. But... the questions need to be asked first so that research can be done. 

 


MyBoysBlue's Avatar MyBoysBlue 09:18 AM 05-27-2011

I can't seem to find either name in the nomination database. I was kinda curious.

 

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/nomination/database.html

 

I'm actually surprise that they aren't there it is generally accepted by mainstream thinking that these were great men who saved us from deadly diseases.


Annie Mac's Avatar Annie Mac 09:24 AM 05-27-2011


Quote:
Originally Posted by Calliope84 View Post


 



Yeah, that.




Me,too.

 

 

I am absolutely not bothered by the "blame the mother" idea. I do the best I can and if something I did somehow causes problems for my kids later, well, I did the best I knew how to do. We now know mothers drinking alcohol and not getting enough folic acid while pregnant can cause birth defects.... is that "blaming the mother"? I think not. Women used to drink all the time while  pregnant, but now we know so we don't do it. We try our best to take our vitamins and eat healthy even through the morning sickness. Maybe my child isn't old enough for me to be experiencing any "mommy guilt" - she is only 6 months old. But I try not to be too hard on myself. We all make our decisions  based on the information we have at the time we make them. So I'm all for research  and more information. But... the questions need to be asked first so that research can be done. 

 


I'm with you on this. However, I would guess there's a collective hangover from the "autism is caused by overbearing mothers" years. Gosh. Those overbearing mothers. What are they *not* responsible for?

 


beckybird's Avatar beckybird 09:35 AM 05-27-2011

"Since clearly you don't, I'll tell you. I'm not trying to bully you, but I'll tell you what you clearly don't know, because you clearly don't know how to research. This is the proper way to research, oh simple one!"

 

That's what I'm hearing. If you truly are  a doctor, I hope your bedside manner is not the same as your internet manner!

 

However, you are right about one thing--I did not know about the conflict of interest. I clearly noted earlier in the post that I just came across that site. It was new to me, as I said.  The point of the post was to show that there are many studies about autism and possible causes. There are studies on possible causes of autism, and not all researchers say "It's genetic only, now move along!" Nope. I'm not the only one with these questions, and there are still so many areas that need to be studied.

 

Normally, I don't like conflicts of interest. Thank you for pointing this out to us, although I did not like the way you came across while doing it! The information is still valuable, and I will take it into consideration. (In my opinion, I don't think it is such a terrible conflict of interest, but he should have disclosed it from the beginning.)


Calliope84's Avatar Calliope84 09:48 AM 05-27-2011


Quote:
Originally Posted by pedsdoc4vax View Post

Yes I am in the US.  And even with the small incidence of Polio and Tetanus in this country (directly attributed to our vaccination rate compared to third world countries where these diseases are still endemic), the risk of an epidemic reoccurring is possible, one, due to the decreased incidence of vaccination, and, two, due to the high rate of immigration from endemic countries of people who aren't vaccinated and likely exposed.  I'm not saying that epidemics would happen but the risk is increasing.  And yes, I have seen patients with these in the US (in non-immigrants).  Yes, the polio incidents in the past were attributed to the oral Sabin live vaccine (not the killed injectable Salk vaccine), but in some countries around the world who had little resources, the oral vaccine for a while was what was affordable and given.  The reason in the 1930s and 1940s that the incidence was decreasing before the vaccine was likely due to better water treatment at the time as polio is transmitted in the fecal-oral manner.  But the incidence was still very high even with this reduction.  The ultimate reduction in incidence has been directly related to increased administration.  As a doc, I can't deny that previous history of Guillain-Barre in family or personally is a detractor from vaccination.  What age were your kids when they had pertussis? Pertussis in adults is rather minor so I won't contribute your having it as all that much, but if your kids were under one then that is serious as those are the kids who will go apneic while coughing.  And don't give me this crap that you will just get antibiotics for pertussis - the reason we give antibiotics for pertussis is not to treat it but to prevent transmission to other susceptible people.  Pertussis immunity wanes over times, whether vaccinated or not, which is the reason post-partum moms and dads are asked for a pertussis booster to protect their immune-immature neonate.  One thing I have found is that a lot of parents who don't vaccinate their kids are the ones who also request antibiotics for any viral illness or ear infection (the prevnar vaccine has been shown to decrease the incidence of otitis media) but don't complain about the possible "toxins" in antibiotics either.  This is also leading to increased antibiotic resistance as well as increased incidence of Clostridium difficile colitis.  When I see parents whose kids come in with vaccine-preventable illness (except for Rotavirus which only has a 60-75% strain coverage) and they deliberately chose not to vaccinate, I sympathize with the child but not the parent.

 

 

Did I miss something? She said she was going to get sodium ascorbate - Vitamin C. Lol That would be the same stuff we have used in large doses for 5 years in our family to get rid of colds and the flu every time (except one time when I was pregnant and worried about taking too much.)
 

 


ma2two's Avatar ma2two 04:14 PM 05-27-2011

To get back to the main topic, I think the top three environmental triggers of autism are EMF, GMO, and vaccines, in no particular order. Of those 3, vaccines are the only exposures that are completely avoidable.


mamanoish's Avatar mamanoish 04:53 PM 05-27-2011

I am a mom to a typically developing child as well as an autistic & hyperlexic child. My autistic child is unvaccinated, organic-in-utero & out-of-utero fed, no fillings (neither he nor i have ever been to the dentist in fact), natural out of hospital birthed (not a drop of medicine), and as crunchy as can be. Breastfed, cloth diapered, sling ridin', co-sleeping (still) and the list goes on and on. Count me out of all other triggers listed. His autism is 100% genetic. 

 


From the day my child was born he was showing traits not typical to other children. From DAY ONE. I knew something was different with him about 4 hours after he was born. He was diagnosed shortly before his 3rd birthday as being classically autistic and hyperlexic. 

 

I used to be a mom who was 100% terrified of autism. I used to think it was the worst thing in the world. I made my choice to not vaccinate because of 2 reasons. One being aborted fetal tissue in vaccines, and two being because of my fear of autism. God works in mysterious ways. I am now completely the opposite when it comes to autism. Sure, my child is more challenging than most other children, but he is AWESOME. Watching him grow every day and change is fantastic. He is kind, lovable, eccentric and beautiful. Autism is part of who he is, and although it doesn't define him, it has completely changed my life and his. Autism isn't a bad thing. I wouldn't make him unautistic if I had the chance. God blessed me with this child for a reason, and he has forever changed our lives for the better. 

 

AUTISM IS NOT A TERRIBLE THING TO FEAR. I wish topics like this would stop coming up. It seems like all they do is make moms of kids with autism play the blame game. "What could I have done different?" I felt like I was pushed to feel like this was a horrible thing and the guilt is incredible. But the more I pushed away from topics and conversations like this the more I accepted and loved everything about autism. I am pregnant with #3 and wouldn't be the slightest bit upset if he/she was autistic, too. I wouldn't blame myself because I never did anything "wrong."

 

I love how people WITHOUT autistic children are always the ones getting heated about this. Walk a day in my shoes and then you can have an opinion! 


WildKingdom's Avatar WildKingdom 04:59 PM 05-27-2011


Quote:
Originally Posted by BeckyBird View Post

"Since clearly you don't, I'll tell you. I'm not trying to bully you, but I'll tell you what you clearly don't know, because you clearly don't know how to research. This is the proper way to research, oh simple one!"

 

That's what I'm hearing. If you truly are  a doctor, I hope your bedside manner is not the same as your internet manner!

 

However, you are right about one thing--I did not know about the conflict of interest. I clearly noted earlier in the post that I just came across that site. It was new to me, as I said.  The point of the post was to show that there are many studies about autism and possible causes. There are studies on possible causes of autism, and not all researchers say "It's genetic only, now move along!" Nope. I'm not the only one with these questions, and there are still so many areas that need to be studied.

 

Normally, I don't like conflicts of interest. Thank you for pointing this out to us, although I did not like the way you came across while doing it! The information is still valuable, and I will take it into consideration. (In my opinion, I don't think it is such a terrible conflict of interest, but he should have disclosed it from the beginning.)


That's fine if you don't think it's such a terrible conflict of interest, but even the editor of the J. Child Neurology (in which the article was published) thinks otherwise.  When he found out about the COI, he even published an article entitled "The Appalling Poling Saga."  It's an interesting read.

http://jcn.sagepub.com/content/23/9/1090.extract

 


ma2two's Avatar ma2two 05:38 PM 05-27-2011

mamanoish, it sounds like your child's autism is nothing to fear, but there are many thousands of parents who do have terrifying stories of autism. Remember, it is a spectrum, with many different possible symptoms, including extreme pain and violent outbursts. If you hadn't been so careful with your son, there's a possibility he could have a much more severe case.

 

Tell me this is nothing to fear. http://www.rescuepost.com/files/josh-pdf-1.pdf


mamanoish's Avatar mamanoish 05:48 PM 05-27-2011


Quote:
Originally Posted by ma2two View Post

mamanoish, it sounds like your child's autism is nothing to fear, but there are thousands and thousands of parents who do have terrifying stories of autism. Remember, it is a spectrum, with many different possible symptoms, including extreme pain and violent outbursts.



My son is in behavioral therapies for aggression. He also has speech therapy and occupational therapy. He didn't speak until the last few months. Therapy, love and kindness are amazing things. Even when he was non-verbal he was still an amazing child. But working with him, learning about him and doing therapy for hours and hours a week has helped him be the best he can be. I have a friend with an older, non-verbal child on the low end of the spectrum. He has a brain, feelings and emotions. Autistic children aren't wild animals or robots. 

 

So let me ask, do YOU have an autistic child? Your life is what you make of it. My son's life is awesome, autism or not. A cousin of mine has a birth injury and as a result can't walk, talk, is still in diapers and is in her 20s. She's still happy. We love her. She's a human being, just like autistic individuals. 

 

Also wanted to add that my son does have medical and abdominal issues associated with his autism.. which equals pain. Don't assume that just because I am positive and accepting that I have lived autism without a struggle. In fact, are you paying my medical bills? I think not. 

 

I could spend my life sitting around and sulk about how terrible it is to have a kid with autism, or i could rise the occasion. It would be a terrible tragedy for my son to think for a second that I regretted or didn't accept him, if he is in fact able to understand that as an adult. 

 

I'd rather not read your "scary" link because I live autism every day. I work with therapists every day. I have completely changed my career and I'm studying to enter the field of speech language pathology. I LIVE autism. Not ready spooky internet stories about it. 


ma2two's Avatar ma2two 05:54 PM 05-27-2011

mamanoish, I can see from your signature that you are trying to spread positive messages about autism, but the way you are going about it seems bizarre to me. I can't find anywhere where anyone has suggested that autistic kids are wild animals or robots without feelings. I can't find anywhere where anyone has suggested that parents shouldn't love their autistic children or try to make the best out of any situation.

 

And now that you are revealing more about your son's autistic child's symptoms, including pain, I can't understand how if you had a choice, you would choose that for him. You said you would choose all his struggles and pain. "I wouldn't make him unautistic if I had the chance."


mamanoish's Avatar mamanoish 06:03 PM 05-27-2011

It's called therapy and treatment. We blood tested him for allergies and now avoid foods that were making him sick. Just like any other illness that is making a child sick. If he eats foods that he is allergic to, he gets sick. Plenty of kids have food allergies and aren't autistic, their parents help them through it. I can't work full time anymore to be in therapy with him several times a week. He has progressed tremendously and every thing has helped me grow into a better mom, and my husband into a better dad. Let alone person in general. He is a blessing, so NO, I wouldn't change him. 

 

So again, do YOU have an autistic child? Have you ever even MET an autistic child? Or are you just spreading propaganda on the internet? 

 

I guess it's pretty "odd" that I'm trying to help other parents realize that autism isn't the worst thing in the world if they're faced with it. There are ways to make the best of it. It isn't always a terrible thing. Read a few pages back, there's a mom in the same boat as me. 


NatureMom2Two's Avatar NatureMom2Two 06:16 PM 05-27-2011

mamanoish, I could not agree more! I would never change my son...and removing from him his autism would do just that. Does it make it harder? Sometimes. It can be hard to raise a child with poor impulse control, a lack of language and aggressive behaviors. But you know what? That can be true of any child! There are smart, sweet, kind talented children with autism and kids who have a very difficult time adapting to the world, who are cognitively impaired, and who will be forever depend ant upon adult care. But guess what? The same things are true of kids WITHOUT autism! Autism is merely a term for a group of behaviors. That's all it is. It's not some terrible tragedy or awful sentence, and I get tired of hearing about how "crushing" the diagnosis can be, or how "desperate" parents are for a cure.

 

Yes, it's hard to pay for costly therapies. Yep, it's time consuming to shuttle him from speech to OT. And yes, it can be tough to watch others treat him cruelly. But you know what? The only thing handicapping my son - really - are those who see his autism as if it were a negative!

 

Hats off to you, mamanoish, for saying it better than I ever could!


ma2two's Avatar ma2two 06:50 PM 05-27-2011

mamanoish, and naturemom2two, what will your autistic children's lives be like after you and your husbands have passed away? This is what life is like for some adults who don't have people who love them who are able to take care of them. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2011/06/01/bbc-panorama-documentary-exposes-horrific-abuse-of-mentally-disabled-adults-in-care-home-115875-23170463/ Great for your kids if they are high functioning enough that they are guaranteed to never need to be in a care home. But there are a lot of lower functioning people with autism for whom that is a possible reality. I'm glad the struggles have made you all into better people, but is autism really what is best for your children? What about the impulse control and aggression when they are 180 pound teenagers and adults?

 

mamanoish accused me of trying to spread propaganda, and that's funny, because I'm trying to wrap my brain around this "autism is great! I wouldn't change a thing!" bit, and that really seems like propaganda to me. I'm not accusing anyone, but that was my thought, so I found it interesting that mamanoish brought that up.

 

This thread started as a brainstorming about possible environmental causes of autism. When a cause for something is known, that brings the possibility of prevention in many cases. But what you are saying by being on this thread is that nobody should be looking for causes or possible preventions. Because being autistic is actually better than not being autistic. I respect that attitude when it is coming from an autistic adult, referring to themselves, but coming from parents who prefer their children to have more pain and struggles than others--well, as a mother, I find that pretty difficult to believe.

 

 


mamanoish's Avatar mamanoish 07:24 PM 05-27-2011

Ok, since I have asked you this a handful of times and you have failed to answer my question... I think it's safe to assume that you are not a mom of an autistic child, nor know anyone in person living with the disorder. Are you a professional working in the field with autistic kids? A therapist? A psychologist? Anything other than someone with an opinion on the internet who has read horror stories but doesn't live autism from day to day?

 

Thanks for bringing up the event of my death or my husbands and who will care for our child. I imagine that if he could not do so himself.. his brother would step up and possibly care for him, or worst case he would go to a home. Just like any other individual on the planet living with a life-long disorder. Just like my cousin with brain-damage. Autism might not be the "best life" in your eyes, but it doesn't make my sons life any less significant than your typically developing child's life. Is living a life with asthma the best life? Nope, but I do it every day. 

 

Heaven forbid you are faced with a challenge like autism, from your replies, I'm sure you'd be in the "woe is me" group. Don't feel bad for my son. I feel bad for people like you who are so close minded to something that can be an amazing gift. Have you ever heard of Temple Grandin? She feels the same way I do about autism, and was not so high functioning as a youngin. 


NatureMom2Two's Avatar NatureMom2Two 07:32 PM 05-27-2011

What will happen to my son after I die? What will happen to your kids when you are gone? Oh...wait...my son must be dependent upon us, right, because he has autism? And your child is destined to live independently, and have a rich full life because your child is neuro-typical? Is that how this works? Because I guess the poet and philosopher Tito Rajarshi Mukhopadhyay, diagnosed with profound autism and mental retardation did not get that memo. Nor did Temple Grandin. And famous jazz musician Matt Savage? He must have been left out of that, too. What about Sharisa Joy Kochmeister, who has multiple disabilities, including autism, and cannot speak without augmented communication devices, but still graduated top in her class (http://www.theautismperspective.org/editor.htm )? She must not know she isn't supposed to be an independent, productive adult. And let us not forget university educated author Lucy Blackman, who also has no verbal language. Or autism rights advocate Amanda Baggs. And never mind university educated Zack Martin, who is married and uses his autism to teach children with the disorder how to play music.

 

I guess it's good their parents did not groom them to live at home in the basement or spend their lives in institutional care.

 

I give my son the same resources you give your kids: a good education, help in those areas where he demonstrates a deficit, and the opportunity to maximize his talents and gifts. I have no more reason than you to suspect that he will have anything other than a rich, full, successful future, and I find your narrow view of his life both sad and misinformed. It might surprise you to know our boy has a handsome college fund that we expect will come in handy for his educational expenses after high school.

 

My son is gifted. He is bright, talented. Autism is not "developmental stasis." It is "developmental delay." It DOES take him a bit longer and a bit more effort to learn certain things...but that does not mean he cannot get there. Most children do, so long as they are given appropriate early interventions. In fact, the notion of housing persons with autism in institutional settings is arcane. Like I said, that view is what handicaps my son. Nothing inherent to autism. How sad that you would be so bigoted in your understanding of the disorder. Children with autism have all measure of ability and intellect, just like children without the disorder.


mamanoish's Avatar mamanoish 07:48 PM 05-27-2011
Naturemom2two, thank you for saying it better than I could, because quite frankly... this conversion is starting to piss me off!
treeoflife3's Avatar treeoflife3 07:49 PM 05-27-2011

I think this thread is deteriorating into a silly debate.. I think both sides have valid points.  Autism doesn't have to be some horrible disorder that 'needs' to be fixed and avoided... but that also doesn't mean all people affected by it are totally cool with it and embrace it.

 

I have two friends from high school.  Both smart, funny and fascinating.  They have friends and a full life.  They are independent.  they both are also on the autism spectrum.  They don't sit around feeling sorry for themselves and anyone who knows them wouldn't either.  They clearly aren't suffering for being on the spectrum.  However, both would gladly give up the challenges that come with being autistic.  Sure, they aren't complaining nor defining themselves by their autism, but they also aren't embracing it as this amazing feature about themselves.  It just is.  It is simply one part of who they are, and a part that presents challenges in life.

 

I don't think it is wrong to want to look for causes of autism beyond genetic.  Not everyone is thrilled to be autistic and would have liked to prevent it.  this kind of reminds me of the debates that happen within the hearing impaired community over whether or not implants help someone with hearing impairments by allowing them to communicate with the general population more easily or hinders them by taking away a feature that gave them a place in a community with its own unique culture including language.  Not everyone wants to be deaf, not everyone wants to be autistic.  It isn't wrong though to also embrace and even be proud of those features that set them apart and give them a special and different way of living.


GoBecGo's Avatar GoBecGo 02:06 AM 05-28-2011


Quote:
Originally Posted by ma2two View Post

mamanoish, and naturemom2two, what will your autistic children's lives be like after you and your husbands have passed away? I'm glad the struggles have made you all into better people, but is autism really what is best for your children? What about the impulse control and aggression when they are 180 pound teenagers and adults?

 

mamanoish accused me of trying to spread propaganda, and that's funny, because I'm trying to wrap my brain around this "autism is great! I wouldn't change a thing!" bit, and that really seems like propaganda to me. I'm not accusing anyone, but that was my thought, so I found it interesting that mamanoish brought that up.

 

This thread started as a brainstorming about possible environmental causes of autism. When a cause for something is known, that brings the possibility of prevention in many cases. But what you are saying by being on this thread is that nobody should be looking for causes or possible preventions. Because being autistic is actually better than not being autistic. I respect that attitude when it is coming from an autistic adult, referring to themselves, but coming from parents who prefer their children to have more pain and struggles than others--well, as a mother, I find that pretty difficult to believe.

 

 


Once upon a time one of these kids grew up to be my dad.  I am the child, not the parent, of an autistic person.  When my father was 10, when most children would have grown out of it, he would still have terrible violent rages.  When he was 28, and a new father, he had LONG outgrown them.  These things can take a little longer for an autistic person, but that's not to say they NEVER happen.  

 

Once upon a time one of these kids grew up to be my partner.  I am the partner, not the parent, of an autistic person.  When my DP was a teenager and in AGONY in social situations his peers were positively revelling in, he felt like such a freak.  But now he's nearly 40 he is more able to cope and has learned ways to deal with the issues social interactions bring up.  Yes, he still struggles sometimes.  He's a software manager and sometimes the pain he's in over the (to him) utterly baffling things members of his team do is hard to watch.  But he's the most incredible man i know.  He's passionate and loyal and loving and intelligent and funny and loving.  I am so grateful that he chose me to be with and so proud to bear his kids.

 

And yes, obviously it's a spectrum, and i have known a few profoundly autistic people, and that is a hard road to walk, but i'm not ready to say based on that we should get rid of people like my father and my partner.  I have never met an autistic person who didn't have SOMEthing unique and wonderful to offer.  I'm not ready to "cure" that.

 

If you live with autism as some of us do, if it is every day, and maybe even not only the kids but the adults too, people who have come through childhood (which is definitely a tougher time with autism in the mix) and live happy, fulfilled lives, doing incredibly worthwhile (personally and for the world) things with their time it is quite hard to get to the hand-wringing and wailing of "won't somebody PLEASE think of the CHILDREN!?"

 

If this terrible spectre of autism, which genetically hangs over my children from maternal and paternal sides, is going to descend and ruin their lives in such a way that they end up being like my dad or my DP....can you see why that is hardly terrifying or even surprising to me?  OBVIOUSLY i think autistic can be better than not autistic - my father and partner are amazing individuals.  They are so different in the sea of NT's.  Like diamonds in the mud to me.  I love them with all my heart, i wouldn't change a single thing about either of them.  I would never fear an autistic child, sure parenting them would have its own individual challenges for me as a parent, but that's parenting isn't it?

 


SilverMoon010's Avatar SilverMoon010 04:45 AM 05-28-2011

I just finished reading all of the recent posts and this thread took a turn I wasn't expected for.

 

Let me start by saying that I don't have an autistic child. I understand how this subject is a hot issue for parents with an autistic child.  I understand how parents accept their children's disorder. I get that; I really do. However, that doesn't change the fact that it is a disorder, and there are now a lot of children with this disorder (I don't buy the DSM diagnosis theory). 

 

There are many cases that are genetic, but I also believe there are many cases that are not genetic and I believe something is hurting our children.  I can't see how no one would want to research this further.  Every parent has a right to ask questions about the health of our children and demand proper research, whether they have an autistic child or not.

 

Mamanoish: You noticed your unvaccinated child was not developing at normal speed from the day he was born.  Other parents claim their children were developing completely normal on schedule, only to find a year or two later that they completely regress into autism.  Those cases would absolutely need to be researched further because that does not sound like genetics to me.  We need more studies of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated and developmental milestones (as I mentioned in my previous post). Why give up on this?

 

Our children are the future.  If many continue to get diagnosed with autism, what will the future be like for them? Everyone most certainly should accept children with autism but at the same time why can't we, as parents, ask questions? We need answers, but first, the questions do need to be asked.


GoBecGo's Avatar GoBecGo 05:27 AM 05-28-2011


Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverMoon010 View Post

Ok, this conversation is starting to get ugly.

 

Let me start by saying that I don't have an autistic child. 

 

I understand how this subject is a hot issue for parents with an autistic child.  I understand how parents accept their children's disorder. I get that; I really do. However, that doesn't change the fact that it is a disorder, and there are now a lot of children with this disorder (I don't buy the DSM diagnosis theory). 

 

There are many cases that are genetic, but I also believe there are many cases that are not genetic and I believe something is hurting our children.  I can't see how no one would want to research this further.  Every parent has a right to ask questions about the health of our children and demand proper research, whether they have an autistic child or not.

 

Mamanoish: You noticed your unvaccinated child was not developing at normal speed from the day he was born.  Other parents claim their children were developing completely normal on schedule, only to find a year or two later that they completely regress into autism.  Those cases would absolutely need to be researched further because that does not sound like genetics to me.  We need more studies of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated and developmental milestones (as I mentioned in my previous post). Why give up on this and just accept everything the way it is? 

 

Our children are the future.  If many continue to get diagnosed with autism, what will the future be like for them? Everyone most certainly should accept children with autism but at the same time why can't we, as parents, ask questions? We need answers, but first, the questions do need to be asked.


What about a delayed onset "does not sound like genetics"?  There are genetic disorders which do this - Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy sufferers may have symptoms from birth but many appear to be completely normal children until they are 4 or 5.  Huntington's Disease does not manifest until middle age in some people.  There are even cases of delayed onset cystic fibrosis.

 

It is not "giving up" to accept that the research so far, which has failed to find any link between vaccines and autism, may be correct.  When the cause seems very likely to be genetic (i.e. there are traits throughout a family which then produces a diagnosably autistic child, or a family with several autistic adults has an autistic child) it is a waste of time and money to push all of that aside and say "ok, but maybe it was the vaccines".


SilverMoon010's Avatar SilverMoon010 05:48 AM 05-28-2011

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBecGo View Post




What about a delayed onset "does not sound like genetics"?  There are genetic disorders which do this - Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy sufferers may have symptoms from birth but many appear to be completely normal children until they are 4 or 5.  Huntington's Disease does not manifest until middle age in some people.  There are even cases of delayed onset cystic fibrosis.

 

It is not "giving up" to accept that the research so far, which has failed to find any link between vaccines and autism, may be correct.  When the cause seems very likely to be genetic (i.e. there are traits throughout a family which then produces a diagnosably autistic child, or a family with several autistic adults has an autistic child) it is a waste of time and money to push all of that aside and say "ok, but maybe it was the vaccines".

 

Why so snarky?shrug.gif Because I am a parent who actually asks questions?

 

Anyway, the “classic” form of autism was described as children being different from normally-developing children from birth.  Autism starting at 18 months is a more recent development.  It was not always like that.  If it is genetic, there are signs of autism since birth, i.e., not smiling, not babbling etc.  Parents just don't pick up on them.  To believe a child was developing completely normally and then later dissolving into a state of mental impairment makes it difficult for me to believe it is not something else. Can you explain your theory of a delayed onset of autism after the child was hitting all milestones and speaking normally, losing the ability to walk and even speak?

 

Again, the research has not fully been completed.  Read back a few pages.  There are many gaps in the research and they were already mentioned. You are another one who is completely satisifed with the research and I am sorry for that. It's starting to sound like denial to me that autism cannot be caused by anything other than genetics? Why? What about the cases where there are NO traces of autism in the family whatsoever?


Tags: Vaccinations , Autism
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