CA bill (AB 499) would allow 12 year olds to consent to certain vaccines without parental knowledge - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
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#61 of 93 Old 09-17-2011, 10:08 AM
 
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Like I said, I understand why there is so much concern over Gardasil, and there is a lot of worrisome stuff out there, and I find Merk's marketing to be quite heavy handed and not entirely appropriate.  

 

But... 

 

The fist link focuses on a girl whose symptoms began with a rash two months after the vaccine.  So presumably she was fine for those two months?  I guess it could possibly have been a delayed reaction to the vaccine.  Or, the rash could have been an indication that she'd come down with a virus that triggered an autoimmune disease.  That sounds more likely to me, but of course there is no way to know for sure. 

 

The fourth one is Natalie Morton who died due to a large malignant tumor in her chest, basically a ticking time bomb which was ready to kill her at any moment, and that's when it went off.  

 

The second could also have been a coincidence, though it sounds more likely to be related than the first.  As for the third, I believe the CDC has had some concern about blood clots after Gardasil, though nothing conclusive and it's not listed as an official side effect.  Sometimes blood clots just happen for unknown reasons, even in teens with no family history.  

 

These are all anecdotes.  Bad things happen to people unexpectedly all the time.  With tens of millions of doses given, it is safe to assume that purely by chance some of those girls will have very bad things happen, even on occasion very rare bad things, occur soon after the shot.  To determine that something is a real risk from Gardasil, anecdotes aren't enough, you need to know, for instance, how frequently blood clots happen in teens and if they are more common in teens who have just had Gardasil than in those who haven't.  

 


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Originally Posted by philomom View Post

And these are not isolated cases. This vaccine has now been banned by other countries like Spain and France because it takes the lives of healthy young girls.
 
Really?  Do you have a source of that?  All I can find is that Spain withdrew a particular lot of Gardasil after two girls were hospitalized hours after being vaccinated with it at the same school, but later it was determined that whatever was wrong with them was unrelated to Gardasil.  Whether it was declared unrelated just on the basis of not being how to figure out how Gardasil caused it or if it was because they discovered what was wrong with them and it was something that had a different known cause, I don't know, I didn't see any explanation for why they were actually hospitalized in the articles, perhaps due to patient confidentiality.  I'd hope it was that they knew what harmed them, not just that they couldn't prove Gardasil did it though. 
 
As for France, I can't find any information on Gardasil being banned there, though I did see that a certain advertising campaign was blocked because France felt there was not enough evidence to 100% declare as truth some of the claims it was making. 

 

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#62 of 93 Old 09-17-2011, 06:06 PM
 
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The original, underlying drive behind it is money from Merck. Merck gave a lot of money to an organization called Women in Government. The bill sponsor, Toni Atkins, is a member of Women in Government.

 

It's unconstitutional because it is taking rights away from parents.

 




What specific constitutional right is lost? There is no government mandate here. If we were talking about the TX Rick Perry debacle, then we could talk about parents losing rights, but that's not what's happening in CA.

A pharmaceutical company is behind it, I realize this. But good luck finding anything health related that they aren't behind. My point is, I think it's a step forward (as a No vax, Planned Parenthood supporting, pro choice, reproductive rights supporter) to giving young minors control over their bodies. I'm not afraid that my son will be vaccinated behind my back because we will be talking about it a lot.  We should be talking to our kids about this stuff anyway!

 

 

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#63 of 93 Old 09-17-2011, 06:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by mamakah View Post

 

What specific constitutional right is lost?

Here is a good explanation.

http://www.naturalnews.com/032691_vaccine_laws_consent.html
 

"In Troxel v. Granville, 430 U.S. 57 (2000), the U.S. Supreme Court held that "the Constitution permits a State to interfere with the right of parents to rear their children only to prevent harm or potential harm to a child. "Troxel requires a "threshold showing of harm" that is lacking in the California bill and North Carolina law. Troxel also tells us that parents are presumed to be fit and to make decisions that are in their children's best interests. So, giving the children of every parent in the state the ability to consent to medical treatment at any time amounts to the state declaring that all parents are unfit regarding those matters to which the children are given authority to consent.

Under Troxel, parents are presumed to be fit unless there is a showing of unfitness. So, child consent laws violate the due process clause of the 14th Amendment, unless they include the requisite "threshold showing of harm." As a practical matter, this means that there must be an emergency, a significant harm or risk of harm before someone may make decisions on behalf of a child without a parent's consent."

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#64 of 93 Old 09-17-2011, 07:34 PM
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NatureMom2Two - please remember that we do not host discussion advocating for mandatory vaccination. Any further posts in this vein will be removed. Please also remember that members are expected to treat one other with respect and courtesy at all times.

 

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Are you kidding me??? You'll host entire forums dedicated to false information and fear-mongering surrounding the use of vaccines, none of which is supported by ANY science...but you'll admonish me for the suggestion that vaccines should be required for admission to public schools for reasons of public health and safety? A position, I might add, that is actually rooted in fact as opposed to anecdote and pedagogy? That is absurd. It's a bit like saying, "Let's have a conversation about geography, but you cannot assert that the earth is round because we all know it is flat." Whatever.

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#65 of 93 Old 09-17-2011, 08:08 PM
 
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Well, that's the rule for this particular forum.

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#66 of 93 Old 09-19-2011, 09:40 AM
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That's correct - this forum does not host discussion advocating for mandatory vaccination. There are plenty of sites on the web that do allow such discussion so your interest in that topic would be better taken to one of them. 

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#67 of 93 Old 09-19-2011, 12:11 PM
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True enough. There are many forums where intelligent, scientifically relevant discourse is encouraged, and propaganda is viewed as deleterious to discussion. In fact, I am surprised to learn that there would be a site devoted to nothing more than dogma...but here it is! Though I understand why Mothering.com might be threatened by information as opposed to opinion because, certainly, the facts don't support the views espoused by an anti-vaccine movement who would validate (as you do on your radio show) the voices of nuts like Wakefield. So be it.

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Are you here just to snark at us?  It seems that way.  Go away.

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Troll-alert ;)

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Bye bye!  wave.gif

 

Fishing for an argument.....don't take the bait!

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mamakah View Post


A pharmaceutical company is behind it, I realize this. But good luck finding anything health related that they aren't behind. My point is, I think it's a step forward (as a No vax, Planned Parenthood supporting, pro choice, reproductive rights supporter) to giving young minors control over their bodies. I'm not afraid that my son will be vaccinated behind my back because we will be talking about it a lot.  We should be talking to our kids about this stuff anyway!

 

 


 

I get your point - and I am pro (in general) giving minors some control over their bodies.  I tend to think this responsibility should be relinquished slowly as they age ( and the vax is targeted to 11-13 yr olds - hardly older teens!) and occasionally in matters of urgency and significance.

 

I am pro teens being able to access birth control if they need it without parental permission.  I do not think it is ideal - but I would prefer condoms being handed out freely to anyone who wants them than a pregnant teen or STD's, yk?

 

There is an urgent need for that however, and we know condoms work and have few side effects.

 

If you are going to circumvent parents wishes I think there should be a darn good reason.  Preventing pregnancy is a good reason.  A vax that may work, for a questionable amount of time, that may have serious risk factors, and can be given later is not cutting it for me as a reason to circumvent parental wishes.

 

 

On the bolded part - some kids are capable of withstanding the peer pressure of being the only kid who is not getting the vax, and nurse pressure to get the vax...and some are not.  Heck, there are adults here who need to brace themselves before meeting with the doctor.  It is a lot to ask a teen to say  no to vax when everyone else is doing it.  

 

At my DD's recent assembly on the HPV vaccine they were told they would get cancer and probably die (DD's words) if they did not get the vax. Total fear mongering.   irked.gif  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

At my DD's recent assembly on the HPV vaccine they were told they would get cancer and probably die (DD's words) if they did not get the vax. Total fear mongering.   irked.gif  



bigeyes.gif That is outrageous. Totally unacceptable. If this California bill passes, there's going to be a lot of that. And why not? They'll only have to convince 12 year olds, not their parents, so why not say outrageous things that 12 year olds won't question?

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bigeyes.gif That is outrageous. Totally unacceptable. If this California bill passes, there's going to be a lot of that. And why not? They'll only have to convince 12 year olds, not their parents, so why not say outrageous things that 12 year olds won't question?



It is.  To be honest, though, they have never tried to convince her one on one to vaccinate (and I live in Ontario - where there is something called "mature minor" on the books - she can consent to vaccination if the nurse thinks she is mature enough to make the decision).  The closest they came was last year when one of her teachers tried to send her to the gym as it was her turn for the shot - and she said she is not getting it, and the teacher (or nurse, I can't remember) said "oh yes you are."    They end up retrieving her consent form, and she was not sent to the gym.

 


So, even though we have "mature minor" laws on the books, I do have to fill out a consent form and she has never had anyone try to sway her as an individual.  Speculation as to why:

 

-they do not realise they have the power to try and make her consent

 

-some (many?) adults, no matter what side of the vaccine debate they fall on, are not going to try and convince a 12 yr old to go against their parents wishes

 

-they are afraid of  the wrath of a parent/and the pandoras box they would open if they vaccinated a child who had it written all over their many forms that she was not vaccinated.  I would absolutley make a huge fuss if they vaccinated a child without my written consent.  I might not get anywhere given the "mature minor" rule - but I would tie them up in paperwork and bad publicity.  

 

My DD has also reported that they have rescheduelled individual vax day more than once.  My daughter thinks it is because kids skip school on scheduelled vax days (as they do not want the shot) so by making "surprise" visits they get more kids in the school.  It makes my plans to keep her home on vax day very difficult.  Oh, and yes, the nurse does come to the school on some random day soon after vax day to give shots to any kids who were sick the first day.  

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#75 of 93 Old 09-20-2011, 05:59 AM
 
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I find it scary when schools are used to hand out vaccines. That is so weird to me. They did that in East Germany where mandatory vaccination ruled, but not afterwards (well we have no school nurses or vax laws). What states in the US do the in-school vaccines? Since we will be moving in 3 years I'd like to choose a state that doesn't do that.

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#76 of 93 Old 09-20-2011, 06:24 AM
 
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You know, there more I think about it, there more I come to believe it is vaccines programs in the school that are the issue (and less the mature minor issue).

 

First off, I believe 11-13 is too young to be considered a mature minor. Period.  I could not dig up Ontario's position in any short form, but here is BC's and it conveniently-for-them does not mention age.  

 

 

Mature minor consent

Effort is made to seek parental or guardian consent prior to immunization. Children under the age of 19 who are able to understand the risks and benefits may consent to or refuse immunizations, regardless of the parent’s or guardian’s wishes. It is recommended that parents/guardians and their minor children discuss immunizations beforehand, and ask the nurse or doctor any questions.

 
With regards to older teens, I would not have huge issue if my 15 yr old decided on his own accord to go to a health office, ask to be vaxxed and roll up his sleeve.  I am not saying I would not be a little scared for him, but I would not go all mama bear and storm their offices.
 
He is older teen, it is his body and he sought out a health clinic freely.
 
Juxtapose this with a 12 yr old who been told scary stories during an assembly, followed up by the fact that a public health nurse can try and talk her into the vaccine, and that all her friends and getting the vaccine (peer pressure).
 
Likening it to birth control as an example.  
 
scenario A:  a teen goes to a clinic to get birth control.  She does not have consent, but is given the birth control as she is a mature minor.
 
Scenario B:  The pill is being offerred to all female teens at school.    A week or two before "pill day" everyone is given a talk the benefit of the pill and the horrible consequences of not taking the pill.  As this is a pro pill place, little mention of side effects of the pill are discussed.  On "pill day"  a nurse may talk to you on "why you should take the pill".  You are not so sure of the pill, your parents did not give consent but everyone else is going for it, and the nurse talks so strongly of it - so you go for it. You are also really tired of being lectured and taking their darn shot  pill will stop the talk.   The nurse assures you that you do not need your parents permission to take the pill.
 
Scenario B has so much more room for co-ersion and abuse of power.
 
 
 
 
 
 
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#77 of 93 Old 09-20-2011, 10:03 AM
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NatureMom2Two it seems Mothering.com is not your kind of community so I think we'll part here. I wish you all the best in finding another community that meets your expectations and desires. 


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#78 of 93 Old 09-20-2011, 12:36 PM
 
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Okay here's a father of a 13 yr-old daughter weighing in on AB499.  I told my daughter about this sneaky little bill last night and she responded, "What??? That's crazy. How can they do that?"   In other words, my young daughter has more COMMON SENSE than all these nihilistic legislators in Sacramento put together.   In my opinion, the only way they'll be able to "administer" these deadly vaccines is through force or deception, or both.

 

As of today, 9/20/11, AB499 is apparently still sitting on Gov.Brown's desk, awaiting either his signature or veto. If he does nothing it becomes law. I voiced my opposition to this yesterday (as I just found out about it) and I hope some of you will also. Gov Brown's office number is 916-445-2841.  You'll be prompted to register either for or against AB499. (You don't have to speak to anybody).    

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#79 of 93 Old 09-20-2011, 12:43 PM
 
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You make a great point. Kids are easily influence by their peers. Imagine if getting "the shot" became cool and maybe even was rewarded in some way. Consider tattoos--even just 10 years ago they were not exactly 'cool.'  But now it's become almost a rite of passage at a certain age. What's really diabolical about AB499 is it subtly attempts to piggyback on existing consent law regarding medical treatment for minors. This is a real slippery slope and parents can't be too vigilant!!

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As of today, 9/20/11, AB499 is apparently still sitting on Gov.Brown's desk, awaiting either his signature or veto. If he does nothing it becomes law. I voiced my opposition to this yesterday (as I just found out about it) and I hope some of you will also. Gov Brown's office number is 916-445-2841.  You'll be prompted to register either for or against AB499. (You don't have to speak to anybody).    


I'm not in CA and I called a bunch of times, from different phone numbers.  I hope it makes a difference.

 

(Obviously I voted against this bill.)


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#81 of 93 Old 10-09-2011, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Gov. Brown signed AB 499. It is now law.

http://gov.ca.gov/news.php?id=17272

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outrageous. Kids believe everything they hear from teachers whether it's true or not. they will be easily manipulated and not even bother to talk to their parents about it.. even if they have stellar parents, it's just not what kids do most of the time. they are going to line up because they are told to and not question it.  No parent will be told and the school won't get into trouble for their blatant lies and fear mongering.

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Kids will get overdoses of the vaccine, when their parents take them to the doctor. Some will be afraid to tell their parents they've already gotten it.

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So, is a 13 year old girl old enough to make her own decision and get the vaccine? In the same line of thought, why is she not old enough to date a 30 year old man? Let's just get rid of statutory rape laws altogether, since kids are now mature enough to make adult decisions.


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Gov. Brown signed AB 499. It is now law.

http://gov.ca.gov/news.php?id=17272

 

I'm totally disgusted. The boundaries have been overstepped.  I can't even put into words.
 

 


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I don't even know what to say about this.

A 12 year old cannot give truly informed consent. That's why they are not in a position to make these decisions until they are older!

 

I wonder how much bribery was involved with this one. hopmad.gif


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I wonder how much bribery was involved with this one. hopmad.gif



Lots. Merck donated money to Women in Government, of which Toni Atkins, the bill's sponser, is a member.

 

And think of all the bribes that will be used to get kids to consent to the vaccine. If Merck can somehow bribe kids with a $25 prize to get a $120 vaccine paid for by the government, of course they will. And they wouldn't even have to spend that much on bribes. For example, they could donate a $300 prize for a drawing, in which only one kid out of hundreds wins. It's already been done. 

http://www.carrborocitizen.com/main/2011/05/11/immunization-contest/ (not by Merck, specifically).

 

I like nia82's idea from a previous post, to tell our kids, "Whatever they promise, we'll buy two of those for not vaccinating." Which I realize, of course, only works with parents who can afford that. Grr. irked.gif

 

It would be great to not have to match or double the bribe, and just have a serious discussion with your almost 12 year old about the risks of the vaccine, and that will probably be enough for many kids. But I'm sure there are many who are not mature enough to resist the temptation of bribes or the peer pressure to get the vaccine that all their friends are getting.

 

This is really going to get ugly the first time a child is seriously injured by a Gardasil injection, that a parent did not consent to. There will be lawsuits costing the taxpayers a lot of money. Who will pay for the medical costs due to the injuries? This is even against federal law, which REQUIRES that a Vaccine Information Sheet be given to a parent before any vaccine is given to a minor. This is all so stupid, I cannot believe Gov. Brown fell for it. Unless he was bought, too. I haven't looked into that yet.

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#88 of 93 Old 10-10-2011, 04:21 AM
 
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We wont' know the true outcome of this "experiment" for a while yet...how many teens will be unable to have kids? (i dont know about you, but i smell "population control") and greed and corruption...oh yeah, the usual bs from our gov, and fda....

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how many teens will be unable to have kids? (i dont know about you, but i smell "population control")



This is what really hits home for me.

I received Garasil as a young teen, when the vax was first released. I am now struggling with my fertility at 18 years old, something NO woman should ever have to experience. Now it's being handed out to every girl (and boy, for that matter) in SCHOOL of all places. Without parents having a say? Ugh. Ugh ugh ugh.

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Aww, I'm sorry  WildDoula hug2.gif    I hope you will be able to overcome the fertility issues.

 

DH's best friend's wife has had issues as well. They are pro-vaccine, and she recently graduated nursing school. I know she's gotten every vaccine recommended, and they have had struggles with fertility for several years--with multiple miscarriages. I can't say if it is because of vaccines, or radiation from medical equipment, or genetics, or whatever else might have been the problem. Because I'm so skeptical of vaccines, it does influence my suspicions.

Fortunately, she is now pregnant, 20+ weeks. We are all so very happy for them, and they are in our prayers. You are too! Never give up!


               "Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."

                ~Captain Hammer (j/k, it was Plato)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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