Is it dangerous to skip the MMR and Chickenpox vaccine? - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

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#121 of 150 Old 08-20-2012, 05:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by doctortee View Post

"No vaccine can provide health" - ???

 

Ummm, where exactly did you study medicine? Perhaps you should broaden your reading a little...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_controversies

Thanks for the wiki link doctortee.


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#122 of 150 Old 08-20-2012, 07:39 AM
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Just a reminder to everyone participating in this discussion - we expect our members to discuss and debate with respect. No belittling or remarks intended to insult are tolerated. So please avoid personal comments against each other and focus on discussing the topic at hand. 

 

doctortee and Mirzam - please edit your posts.


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#123 of 150 Old 08-20-2012, 01:01 PM
 
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We don't vax at all and our four year old is extremely healthy. She's never had an ear infection, she has zero allergies.  She occasionally gets a seasonal flu, and that's it.  For those who selectively vax, I thought that if you got the right doctor you could have him/her order separate shots for the mmr (breaking it down into three).  I have had friends who do this.  Is it no longer possible?

 

I have a PhD and know that $$ and lobby interests can make some research look legitimate and other research look flawed.  If you just look at the ingredients of vaccines, though, you'll see that they are full of heavy metals, formaldehyde, etc.  Things that can clearly damage your body.  I know several people who have been severely mentally damaged by vaccines ... The saddest case was the son of my handyman.  He is a single dad (the mother was a drug addict) and a very good father.  His son had some signs of mild autism, but he was talking, counting to 10, etc.  And he had a gut feeling that he should not do any further vaccines because the toddler was very vulnerable.  But he didn't know about getting medical or religious exemption and was afraid that social services might take his kid away. So he did a series of vaccines and said that with every shot he saw his kid digress.  When he got the MMR, he had a seizure that evening.  After that he lost the ability to maintain eye contact. He lost the ability to speak.  I feel bad for him because he also feels guilty.  His gut told him not to vaccinate but he did it anyway.  If you go to a site dedicated to parents of children with autism and other learning disabilities, they are full of stories like this. 

 

A lot of kids can handle the vaccines with few side effects. Some of the 'small' side effects of vaccines that your pediatrician will admit to (small but necessary evils when compared to what they believe are the greater benefits) are an increased rate of asthma, allergies and ear infections.  Every doctor knows that vaccines can bring about these illnesses in children.  But if a child is already vulnerable, I you have to be particularly careful.  Do as much research as you can.

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#124 of 150 Old 08-20-2012, 03:37 PM
 
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I edited my post - I hope that meets the admin's concerns? I am new at this - please let me know if I need to do anything else... :-)

I only linked to the wiki article(1) because I thought it was a reasonably plain english summary of alleged vaccine controversies. I have been studying this topic since before my pre med degree and am happy to provide whatever information I can in my limited time.

I am interested where people studied medicine as at my med school they were very strict about excluding pharmaceutical companies - none of which have brain washed me! I vaccinate because I want to protect little people from disease, nothing more complicated than that.

Thanks all,
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(1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_controversies
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#125 of 150 Old 08-20-2012, 03:47 PM
 
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As someone who grew up when Chickenpox and MMR were common childhood illnesses, I would support your decision to pause on these vaccines. I think you're also asking about trusting your intuition here and choosing selective vaccines. You've noticed that your son may be on the spectrum. You have other worries about possible affects from the disease, but those are uncommon. Sterility is rare from mumps. It's not proven that the MMR does or does not cause autism, but there is compelling evidence about being cautious with live vaccines. As you know, we have many more cases of shingles due to children not getting the chickenpox vaccine. 

 

I had chickenpox as a child and my children did too. While it is a nuisance of an illness, it's not that bad and doesn't compare in severity to other diseases like pertussis or polio. Same with MMR. I had all three of those diseases as a child. Mumps was the most uncomfortable; I was sick for two weeks. But, neither mumps nor measles or rubella are serious diseases in healthy children.

 

Good luck with your decision.

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#126 of 150 Old 08-21-2012, 10:34 AM
 
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I edited my post - I hope that meets the admin's concerns? I am new at this - please let me know if I need to do anything else... :-)
I only linked to the wiki article(1) because I thought it was a reasonably plain english summary of alleged vaccine controversies. I have been studying this topic since before my pre med degree and am happy to provide whatever information I can in my limited time.
I am interested where people studied medicine as at my med school they were very strict about excluding pharmaceutical companies - none of which have brain washed me! I vaccinate because I want to protect little people from disease, nothing more complicated than that.
Thanks all,
Doctortee.
(1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_controversies

 Might you share where you went to school? What do you mean your school "excluded" pharmaceutical companies? can you be more specific? I think the problem of pharmaceutical influence in medical school is a problem that is being addressed, but still has a long way to go.

 

http://chronicle.com/article/GhostwritingAcademic/123613/

 

this article is just the tip of the iceberg, there are dozens of oters addressing the same sort of problems and COI.

 

As difficult as this may be for you to believe, many of us here on MDC (while not MD's like yourself) have spent countless hours/days/weeks/months /years researching this topic as well. Many of us have actually spent quite a lot of time looking at BOTH sides of the issue. In medical school, ONE side of the issue is addressed/taught/discussed.

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#127 of 150 Old 08-21-2012, 01:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Marnica View Post

 Might you share where you went to school? What do you mean your school "excluded" pharmaceutical companies? can you be more specific? I think the problem of pharmaceutical influence in medical school is a problem that is being addressed, but still has a long way to go.

 

http://chronicle.com/article/GhostwritingAcademic/123613/

 

this article is just the tip of the iceberg, there are dozens of oters addressing the same sort of problems and COI.

 

As difficult as this may be for you to believe, many of us here on MDC (while not MD's like yourself) have spent countless hours/days/weeks/months /years researching this topic as well. Many of us have actually spent quite a lot of time looking at BOTH sides of the issue. In medical school, ONE side of the issue is addressed/taught/discussed.

I agree the there are influences in schools that shouldn't be.  I have a BS in Animal Science from the Universtiy of CT.  During my time there, in various classes, we were visted by not only pharmaceutical reps, but pet food and agricultural feed reps as well.  So for a group of students planning to enter into the livestock or veterinary field, there was plenty of bias and outside influence.  I heard a lot of "when you graduate, you could work for us and develop foods that are nutritionally balanced and make pets healthy" (from Purina reps, ICK!) or "if you decide your interest is in chemistry, you could work for us and develop medicines and vaccines to save animals lives" (mostly Pfizer reps bc they are local).  I decided early on that vet school wasn't of interest to me and I went into animal behavior, but I still studied the same things as my peers who did go on to vet school, and I saw then and even more so now, that those days of lecture were completely unethical.  Not once were alternative therapies mentioned or even considered.  None of the professors cared to invite a holistic vet in for a talk.  It's the same thing with humans.  Money talks, an big pharm has a lot of money to throw around.

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#128 of 150 Old 08-21-2012, 05:49 PM
 
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>What do you mean your school "excluded" pharmaceutical companies? can you be more specific?
 
OK:
1. Many lecturers specifically gave examples of aggressive marketing where pharmaceutical companies presented biased studies. We were taught to not trust them and do our own research.
2. No company was allowed on campus, nor allowed to sponsor events or present to students.
3. You would LOSE marks if you gave trade names (owned by the drug companies) - you had to use generic drug names on research assignments.
 
I am thankful for my University's policy on this in hindsight. I even joined an organization called No Free Lunch(1) - I was probably the most outspoken student in my year on this issue. So we agree on something, that is good.......... :)
 
>As difficult as this may be for you to believe, many of us here on MDC (while not MD's like yourself) have spent countless hours/days/weeks/months /years researching this topic as well. Many of us have actually spent quite a lot of time looking at BOTH sides of the issue. In medical school, ONE side of the issue is addressed/taught/discussed.
 
Nope, can't agree with you at all. It is no way difficult for me to believe. I know many who have spent decades, as have I, reading about both 'sides' of this issue. I did not wear blinkers during my science degree or my medical degree. Best to keep this friendly rather than assume or imply ignorance - let's both keep things friendly, agreed?
 
Is it dangerous to skip the MMR and Chickenpox vaccine? Absolutely.
 
The return of diseases after the Wakefield fraud(2), such as the death of children from measles(3) are but one of the motivations I have to protect children with vaccines.
 
Cheers,
doctortee
 
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#129 of 150 Old 08-21-2012, 10:33 PM
 
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had chicken pox as a child not fun but not too bad either...no scars. Had the MMR vaccine as a child and developed arthritis, leaky gut, allergies etc. which my medical doctors attributed to the vaccine... I would not wish the complications on anyone. I believe a dramatic change in diet guided by a naturopathic doctor cleansed my system of the vaccine (interestingly I've heard parents of autistic kids find dietary changes help them too). Healthy now (declared a "miracle" by the medical doctors) --but I will live with the deformed joints for the rest of my life. Result: I am not vaccinating my child.

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#130 of 150 Old 08-21-2012, 11:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by doctortee View Post

>What do you mean your school "excluded" pharmaceutical companies? can you be more specific?
 
OK:
1. Many lecturers specifically gave examples of aggressive marketing where pharmaceutical companies presented biased studies. We were taught to not trust them and do our own research.
2. No company was allowed on campus, nor allowed to sponsor events or present to students.
3. You would LOSE marks if you gave trade names (owned by the drug companies) - you had to use generic drug names on research assignments.
 
I am thankful for my University's policy on this in hindsight. I even joined an organization called No Free Lunch(1) - I was probably the most outspoken student in my year on this issue. So we agree on something, that is good.......... :)
 
>As difficult as this may be for you to believe, many of us here on MDC (while not MD's like yourself) have spent countless hours/days/weeks/months /years researching this topic as well. Many of us have actually spent quite a lot of time looking at BOTH sides of the issue. In medical school, ONE side of the issue is addressed/taught/discussed.
 
Nope, can't agree with you at all. It is no way difficult for me to believe. I know many who have spent decades, as have I, reading about both 'sides' of this issue. I did not wear blinkers during my science degree or my medical degree. Best to keep this friendly rather than assume or imply ignorance - let's both keep things friendly, agreed?
 
Is it dangerous to skip the MMR and Chickenpox vaccine? Absolutely.
 
The return of diseases after the Wakefield fraud(2), such as the death of children from measles(3) are but one of the motivations I have to protect children with vaccines.
 
Cheers,
doctortee
 

 

How exactly did you find Mothering.com, and what are your intentions here?  Are you interested in attachment parenting and natural family living, or are you here to "correct" those of us who don't follow your mindset?  Because we get that enough around here, thank you very much.

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#131 of 150 Old 08-21-2012, 11:05 PM
 
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Oh, and for what it's worth, my children's board-certified pediatrician is not only supportive of my not further vaccinating my children, but encourages it.


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#132 of 150 Old 08-22-2012, 05:52 AM
 
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(2) http://briandeer.com/mmr/lancet-summary.htm
(2) http://briandeer.com/wakefield/measles-death.htm

 

Who the H*ll is Brian Deer?.......


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#133 of 150 Old 08-22-2012, 06:14 AM
 
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>What do you mean your school "excluded" pharmaceutical companies? can you be more specific?
 
OK:
1. Many lecturers specifically gave examples of aggressive marketing where pharmaceutical companies presented biased studies. We were taught to not trust them and do our own research.
2. No company was allowed on campus, nor allowed to sponsor events or present to students.
3. You would LOSE marks if you gave trade names (owned by the drug companies) - you had to use generic drug names on research assignments.
 
I am thankful for my University's policy on this in hindsight. I even joined an organization called No Free Lunch(1) - I was probably the most outspoken student in my year on this issue. So we agree on something, that is good.......... :)
 
>As difficult as this may be for you to believe, many of us here on MDC (while not MD's like yourself) have spent countless hours/days/weeks/months /years researching this topic as well. Many of us have actually spent quite a lot of time looking at BOTH sides of the issue. In medical school, ONE side of the issue is addressed/taught/discussed.
 
Nope, can't agree with you at all. It is no way difficult for me to believe. I know many who have spent decades, as have I, reading about both 'sides' of this issue. I did not wear blinkers during my science degree or my medical degree. Best to keep this friendly rather than assume or imply ignorance - let's both keep things friendly, agreed?
 
Is it dangerous to skip the MMR and Chickenpox vaccine? Absolutely.
 
The return of diseases after the Wakefield fraud(2), such as the death of children from measles(3) are but one of the motivations I have to protect children with vaccines.
 
Cheers,
doctortee
 

 

I don't feel Ive done anything of the sort. You are firm in your views and your post stating you were interested in where people went to medical school here read as sarcastic to me. Perhaps that is not the way it was intended.


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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I am interested where people studied medicine as at my med school they were very strict about excluding pharmaceutical companies - none of which have brain washed me! I vaccinate because I want to protect little people from disease, nothing more complicated than that.
Thanks all,
Doctortee.
(1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_controversies

I'm interested, too.  So where did you study medicine?

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#135 of 150 Old 08-22-2012, 06:31 PM
 
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How exactly did you find Mothering.com, and what are your intentions here?  Are you interested in attachment parenting and natural family living, or are you here to "correct" those of us who don't follow your mindset?  Because we get that enough around here, thank you very much.

MDC is not a private club.  There are many views here, although we are not equally vocal.  There are many of us who subscribe to some parts of AP, but not all (there is a current thread in parenting about this very topic) and I am sure people's idea of natural family living varies as well.  As for "correcting" people's views, 63% of this board states that they believe in not vaccinating at all, so I would say that view is well represented here.  The OP's question seems to have been lost in this.  It seems totally appropriate for a medically trained person to try to respond to it and totally inappropriate to suggest she is not welcome.  As a selective vaccinator, I have been really disappointed that this board seems to be a shouting match.  It does not leave much room for people trying to make decisions that don't fall solidly into either camp like me and the OP.  I delayed all vaccines and gave one at a time for my older DD.  I also requested vaccines that were free of and low in mercury and aluminum).  She experienced no serious reactions.  If she had, I would have stopped giving her that vaccine.  If a child has a serious reaction to one or more vaccines (not just the signs of a healthy immune system responding to a bug), it seems like the parent is making a wise decision to stop vaccinating.  It seems that some of the most vocal anti-vaccine voices have children who have reacted badly.  There are people who are not able to get vaccines and the majority of the population being vaccinated is meant to protect them too.  If your child is unvaccinated are you really not grateful that others are?  Are you really convinced the diseases are not dangerous or just not to our children who live in developed countries with high vaccination rates?  I am about to start developing a equally considered vaccine schedule for my 2 month old DD, which is why I came to the vaccine board  (which I have not visited before, though I frequent the pregnancy and parenting boards).  I hope my DD2 has a experience with vaccines similar to DD1, so I can continue to protect both her and vulnerable populations from serious illnesses.  I would like to discuss vaccine decisions with people who are not just bent on winning a debate through fear and abuse of statistics on either side.  Neither I nor the poster being criticized in this quote seem to be fans of big pharma.  My major complaints are more towards the costs of drugs which keep many low income people from getting access to life saving medications and the heavy marketing of dangerous drugs for conditions which the legalization of relatively safe and readily available marijuana would treat just as affectively, but I am not pro drug company.  I just believe in vaccine technology, which was not developed by drug companies or even western medicine, but by mostly older women healers in the Ottoman Empire (what is now turkey).  Lady Montagu observed their technique for small pox vaccination in the early 1700's and tried to rally other upper class English women to vaccinate their children as she had.  The letter is the 4th down on this link if you want to read it.  http://www.ic.arizona.edu/ic/mcbride/ws200/montltrs.htm


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#136 of 150 Old 08-22-2012, 06:53 PM
 
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MDC is not a private club.  There are many views here, although we are not equally vocal.  There are many of us who subscribe to some parts of AP, but not all (there is a current thread in parenting about this very topic) and I am sure people's idea of natural family living varies as well.  As for "correcting" people's views, 63% of this board states that they believe in not vaccinating at all, so I would say that view is well represented here.  The OP's question seems to have been lost in this.  It seems totally appropriate for a medically trained person to try to respond to it and totally inappropriate to suggest she is not welcome.  As a selective vaccinator, I have been really disappointed that this board seems to be a shouting match.  It does not leave much room for people trying to make decisions that don't fall solidly into either camp like me and the OP.  I delayed all vaccines and gave one at a time for my older DD.  I also requested vaccines that were free of and low in mercury and aluminum).  She experienced no serious reactions.  If she had, I would have stopped giving her that vaccine.  If a child has a serious reaction to one or more vaccines (not just the signs of a healthy immune system responding to a bug), it seems like the parent is making a wise decision to stop vaccinating.  It seems that some of the most vocal anti-vaccine voices have children who have reacted badly.  There are people who are not able to get vaccines and the majority of the population being vaccinated is meant to protect them too.  If your child is unvaccinated are you really not grateful that others are?  Are you really convinced the diseases are not dangerous or just not to our children who live in developed countries with high vaccination rates?  

 

I'm sorry you feel that way.  This board has been dominated in the past few months by very vocal pro-vaxers, at least two which have been banned recently because they violated the user agreement and were extremely disrespectful and insulting to non-vaxers.  So some of us have gotten defensive.

 

We do get defensive when brand new members create accounts to debate and often belittle our beliefs - as do posters in the UC forum and the circ. forum.

 

There are many, many threads with research links for those trying to make a decision.

 

If you are interested in how some of us think about herd immunity and if we are "grateful" that others are vaccinated, there are many other threads discussing this, as well as whether we actually identify ourselves as "anti-vax" (very, very few of us are against vaccines, but are advocates of vaccination choice and education).  My first was fully vaccinated on time until his reaction at age 5.  I wish I had been more informed back then and knew about the reality and prevalence of vaccine reactions.  He was a 32-weeker who received his 2 month shots just after his due date, at around 7 lbs., because I trusted my pediatrician.  That's the issue for many of us - we didn't or don't have mindful pediatricians who are comfortable deviating from the CDC schedule and are basically told there is no choice.


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#137 of 150 Old 08-22-2012, 07:28 PM
 
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I cheated and didn't read thru all the posts so not sure if someone already mentioned this.....but depending on the age of your child....if you ever do decide to do MMR, you can ask for a titer blood test so you can see if they have built up any natural immunity...i don't know if similar titers are availalbe for other things....good luck


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#138 of 150 Old 08-23-2012, 04:06 AM
 
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I really couldn't care less if others vax their kids, that is their choice, and NO, i'm not grateful

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  If your child is unvaccinated are you really not grateful that others are?
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#139 of 150 Old 08-23-2012, 04:40 AM
 
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I've linked a reminder here already, and now I'll C&P the forum guidelines here, bolding mine in response to UAVs above:
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We embrace all parents, regardless of their vaccination choice. We uphold the Vaccinations forum as a place where they can come and discuss all aspects of all vaccinations, and find support in their desire to make an informed decision to not vaccinate, to vaccinate, to selectively vaccinate, or to delay vaccinations. We would like all members to understand that this forum is not an anti-vax forum but rather is a forum to discuss issues and concerns so that parents can make an informed decision. We are not, however, interested in hosting discussions advocating for mandatory vaccination.

We are very pleased to have the intelligent, passionate, and wise voices of the parents here that post frequently to the Vaccinations forum to offer advice and information. We certainly want to keep the forum atmosphere a place where they can do so with their passion intact.

However, the passion must also carry a measure of compassion and respect, regardless of who is posting and what they are saying.

We would like our core membership to work in alliance with us in upholding the User Agreement, even in the face of someone who posts in a manner that feels suspicious or with underlying intention or agenda. We would like to have everyone acknowledge and accept the guidelines of this forum so that all members of MDC, whether new or long-standing, will feel more comfortable posting here.

We would like all members to be aware of and appreciate our concerns about the posting manner here that has caused upset to parents in need of info who perhaps asked in the wrong way, asked without reading the archives, or responded in a way that felt inappropriate. Harsh posts in reply to such members have caused some to turn away from the forum. We want to do what we can to ensure that this does not happen. This speaks to the environment we wish to create here at MDC:
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Choosing whether or not to have a child vaccinated, especially in light of the politics of vaccines, must be an independent decision. It should not be coerced, but be the product of true informed consent. Few people even know that they have a choice regarding vaccinations, much less know what informed consent really is... Some parents want to comply with the entire vaccination schedule; others want no vaccinations at all. Some parents want certain vaccines but not others. And some want to delay the vaccines until their baby is older.

Vaccinations: Why All The Fuss by Peggy O'Mara

This means that we do permit pro-vax posting and that should a member post pro-vax information they should not be labeled a troll or someone that does not belong at Mothering or MDC. Yes, there are lots of other places around the world wide web where this information is abundant. But that does not mean that its presentation or discussion is not appropriate here. Rather than rebuke or brand the poster as a troll, rise to the occasion and opportunity to demonstrate the flaws, inconsistencies, and misinformation you feel are present in such information posted. Intelligent, informative, and civil debate should be the shining light of this forum without stooping to accusation, condescending comments and veiled insults against an individual's character or intentions in posting here, as if that will somehow discredit the person or information.

We expect and insist that all members post here with an open mind and a willingness to learn - even from the new member. There should be an understanding that a large number of Mothering community members are against vaccinations so when you do come here to post to ask your questions, and you have an intention to vaccinate, members here will feel a need to inform you of the concerns about vaccinations. While no one should be labeled as irresponsible or uninformed for deciding to vaccinate, neither should parents here who have chosen to not vaccinate be accused of irresponsibility, not caring for their child, or presenting a threat to others. Please respect each other and refrain from statements that are condescending, hurtful, judgmental, and belittling. We will not tolerate such things and because this issue has reached an extreme we will be more pro-active and quick to warn everyone for such behavior, which could ultimately lead to your loss of posting privileges here in Vaccinations.

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#140 of 150 Old 08-23-2012, 06:02 AM
 
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Never mind--saw that my post had already been mentioned. :)

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#141 of 150 Old 08-23-2012, 05:03 PM
 
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.  If your child is unvaccinated are you really not grateful that others are?  

Just out of curiosity, to whom do you think we should be grateful? To those who are vaccinated and are fine, or those who are vaccinated and had severe reactions?
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#142 of 150 Old 08-24-2012, 10:39 AM
 
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Thank you Bokonon for trying to actually address my questions/concerns and I am on the same page with you on this:

 

Quote:
very, very few of us are against vaccines, but are advocates of vaccination choice and education

I understand that some people have very good reasons, not to vaccinate.  I guess what I don't understand, I will look into threads addressing it, is the lack of belief in herd immunity.  On that front:  

 

Quote:
Just out of curiosity, to whom do you think we should be grateful? To those who are vaccinated and are fine, or those who are vaccinated and had severe reactions?

This shows how contentious this issue really is, and as Bokonon said, the people are feeling defensive.  I did not say you "should" be grateful to anyone.  I am trying to understand, as the unquoted follow up question said,  if ladies on this forum who do not vaccinate at all on principal (without history of severe reaction) believe they would make the same choice if they lived in a country with very low vaccination rates and higher prevalence of these diseases.  As I said in my post, I think people whose children have had severe reactions to vaccines are making the right choice in ceasing to vaccinate and I vaccinate partially to protect kids who cannot get vaccines.  

 

Several of you have said you made the choice to not vaccinate because of a reaction.  That makes total sense to me.  The statements that all vaccines are poison, or these diseases aren't dangerous, or that no one should get vaccines because they will get autoimmune diseases or cancer later on seem more like fear mongering trying to beat the other side (that is guilty of fear mongering as well), which doesn't do much to help me relate to the decision.  Some people are allergic to all drugs and many food products or naturally occurring substances.  I am allergic to sulfa drugs and brother is allergic to penicillin.  If I needed antibiotics (which I have very seldom taken in my life and try all natural remedies first) I would not refuse them, but would make sure I did not take the ones I have had bad reactions too.  Bee stings are relatively harmless to some, but could be deadly for my mother-in-law.  Our health decisions should be based on our individual physiology.  As I said before, I do not follow the CDC guidelines and have found a pediatrician that is happy to help me make my own schedule and select "safer" formulations.  I guess that kind of puts me in the middle of the road in this debate.  I posted a link about how old and un-corporate vaccine technology actually is (you can find it as a separate thread on this page).  I guess that is what makes me believe in its potential, but remain skeptical and careful about giving too many at once or about trying to avoid additives.  I would SOOO like to hear other voices that fall less on the extremes.  

Wishing health and happiness to you and your families.


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#143 of 150 Old 08-24-2012, 11:04 AM
 
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Thank you Bokonon for trying to actually address my questions/concerns and I am on the same page with you on this:

 

I understand that some people have very good reasons, not to vaccinate.  I guess what I don't understand, I will look into threads addressing it, is the lack of belief in herd immunity.  On that front:  

 

This shows how contentious this issue really is, and as Bokonon said, the people are feeling defensive.  I did not say you "should" be grateful to anyone.  I am trying to understand, as the unquoted follow up question said,  if ladies on this forum who do not vaccinate at all on principal (without history of severe reaction) believe they would make the same choice if they lived in a country with very low vaccination rates and higher prevalence of these diseases.  As I said in my post, I think people whose children have had severe reactions to vaccines are making the right choice in ceasing to vaccinate and I vaccinate partially to protect kids who cannot get vaccines.  

 

Several of you have said you made the choice to not vaccinate because of a reaction.  That makes total sense to me.  The statements that all vaccines are poison, or these diseases aren't dangerous, or that no one should get vaccines because they will get autoimmune diseases or cancer later on seem more like fear mongering trying to beat the other side (that is guilty of fear mongering as well), which doesn't do much to help me relate to the decision.  Some people are allergic to all drugs and many food products or naturally occurring substances.  I am allergic to sulfa drugs and brother is allergic to penicillin.  If I needed antibiotics (which I have very seldom taken in my life and try all natural remedies first) I would not refuse them, but would make sure I did not take the ones I have had bad reactions too.  Bee stings are relatively harmless to some, but could be deadly for my mother-in-law.  Our health decisions should be based on our individual physiology.  As I said before, I do not follow the CDC guidelines and have found a pediatrician that is happy to help me make my own schedule and select "safer" formulations.  I guess that kind of puts me in the middle of the road in this debate.  I posted a link about how old and un-corporate vaccine technology actually is (you can find it as a separate thread on this page).  I guess that is what makes me believe in its potential, but remain skeptical and careful about giving too many at once or about trying to avoid additives.  I would SOOO like to hear other voices that fall less on the extremes.  

Wishing health and happiness to you and your families.

 Ok but here is the thing. What do you define as extreme? I am a mother who started researching all of this BEFORE I had children. When I became pregnant with my first, I took a careful look at our family history and that coupled with what I had learned and ongoing research brought me to the conclusion that I would not vaccinate my children. Does that make my viewpoint extreme just because my child did not have a vaccine reaction? You state that health desicions should be based on our individual physicology. I couldn't agree more which is why I am against the one size fits all approach to vaccination and fully support freedom of choice in the matter. The bottom line is that you cannot possible know if your child will have a vaccine reaction. There are things that you can look st in your family history that MAY make it more likely, but the reality is that you cannot know. To me this is akin to Russian Roulette. I also believe that immunology and genetics is an merging field and there is much to learn. If one starts learning about epigentics, it is really mind boggling how little we know. Modern vaccination is a fairly new thing with most of the vaccines dating back to only 1 generation ago(and with a couple 2 generations). Science cannot possible know the long term ramifications of this practice for the vast majority of the vaccines on the schedule.

 

I disagree with you about vaccine technology not being corporate. Vaccination and it's orgins bear no resemblence to what is going on today. Vaccination is extremely corporate and is a multi billion dollar very lucrative practice for the pharmaceutical industry. Now that is not to say that I think all vaccines are ineffective. I think there are those that are total crap and there are those that are probably fairly effective.

 

as for the lack of belief in herd immunity -  I guess the issue that people have with it is that it is a theory in terms of vaccination. This term was coined by A.W. Hedrich in 1933 after he had studied the dynamics fo measles outbreaks in the Boston area between 1900 and 1930. He established that when 68% of children CONTRACTED measles, the outbreaks stopped. This protection persisted until the number who had contracted or had been exposed to measles once again fell below 68% of  the community. -Am J Hyg. 17:613-630. "Estimates of the child population susceptible to measles, 1900-1930."

 

 

 

The concept of herd immunity was intended to be applied to a population that had become immune through the NATURAL course of an infection. However, herd immunity was conveniently applied to vaccination by assuming that vaccination confers the same type of protection as natural immunity.   Lifetime Immunity is only conferred through an engagement with the REAL virus. The assumption that the presence of antibodies will protect a person from illness is flawed. -Ref: Vaccine. 2001 oct15;20 Suppl1LS38-41. "What are the limits of adjuvanticity?"

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If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#144 of 150 Old 08-24-2012, 12:32 PM
 
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Thank you Bokonon for trying to actually address my questions/concerns and I am on the same page with you on this:

 

I understand that some people have very good reasons, not to vaccinate.  I guess what I don't understand, I will look into threads addressing it, is the lack of belief in herd immunity.  On that front:  

 

This shows how contentious this issue really is, and as Bokonon said, the people are feeling defensive.  I did not say you "should" be grateful to anyone.  I am trying to understand, as the unquoted follow up question said,  if ladies on this forum who do not vaccinate at all on principal (without history of severe reaction) believe they would make the same choice if they lived in a country with very low vaccination rates and higher prevalence of these diseases.  As I said in my post, I think people whose children have had severe reactions to vaccines are making the right choice in ceasing to vaccinate and I vaccinate partially to protect kids who cannot get vaccines.  

 

Several of you have said you made the choice to not vaccinate because of a reaction.  That makes total sense to me.  The statements that all vaccines are poison, or these diseases aren't dangerous, or that no one should get vaccines because they will get autoimmune diseases or cancer later on seem more like fear mongering trying to beat the other side (that is guilty of fear mongering as well), which doesn't do much to help me relate to the decision.  Some people are allergic to all drugs and many food products or naturally occurring substances.  I am allergic to sulfa drugs and brother is allergic to penicillin.  If I needed antibiotics (which I have very seldom taken in my life and try all natural remedies first) I would not refuse them, but would make sure I did not take the ones I have had bad reactions too.  Bee stings are relatively harmless to some, but could be deadly for my mother-in-law.  Our health decisions should be based on our individual physiology.  As I said before, I do not follow the CDC guidelines and have found a pediatrician that is happy to help me make my own schedule and select "safer" formulations.  I guess that kind of puts me in the middle of the road in this debate.  I posted a link about how old and un-corporate vaccine technology actually is (you can find it as a separate thread on this page).  I guess that is what makes me believe in its potential, but remain skeptical and careful about giving too many at once or about trying to avoid additives.  I would SOOO like to hear other voices that fall less on the extremes.  

Wishing health and happiness to you and your families.

I started to research vaxing before my pregnancy - actually my research began with my dogs.  The first 2 were overvaxxed as puppies and after 2years of on/off treatments for what should have been "simple colds" (they had severe deep set pneumonia among other issues, one nearly died) and nearly $10k in vet bills later (don't I wish I had taken out that doggie insurance the day I brought them home!) I turned to natural therapies to cleanse their systems and try to heal the damage that was done.  It's been 7 years and I'm still working to undo the damage.  Luckily I became an advocate for myself and my animals. I changed vets - 3x - until I was able to find someone willing to work with me on using natural remedies rather than pushing drugs and antibiotics.  Because of that, my newest dog was minimaly vaxxed (just rabies bc it's the law, although I have a pending state exemption for the old girl who at this time is not what I consider healthy enough to recieve the booster) and has not had a single issue to date with his health.  So when it came down to having kids I had already made up my mind about a few things, and my original plan was to select/delay vax (no CP, flu, and either no or delayed/split MMR).  DD came along and I had a 3 page birth plan plastered to every wall in the hospital, and handed out to every nurse I came in contact with.  I knew I did not want any vaxes done in the hospital so we delayed the Hep B til her first pedi appt (2 or 3 days old?).  I did round one of DTaP/Pentacel/Rota @ 2mos...and I cried for days as I watched her scream uncontrollably. She had the runs, she spit up everytime she nursed (not normal for her) and she vomited in between.  She had a constant low grade fever for days and days.  Her sleep?  What sleep?  Well lets just say she went from sleeping 10-12hrs straight at night, to maybe 1hour total, and that lasted about a month before she finally would sleep for a 3hr stretch.  I postponed her 2nd DTap til 5mos as she had a very mild cold at 4mos.  I opted out of the others, and even though my gut reaction was to skip the DTaP, I somehow thought her 2nd one would be better if it was alone.  Nope.  She has never suffered what I would consider major reactions.  No high fever, no seizures, no hospitalization, I didn't even give her tylenol - she was happiest being held.  But she reacted far more than I was comfortable with.  I reported all her reactions and she's not behind by any means on milestones, and if anything thing she's superfocused and mobile for her age so I'm happy I don't have to worry right now about developmental issues.  But it reaffirms my gut feelings that our future children will be completely unvaxxed.  I won't even toy with the select/delayed becuase the 'what if' scenario of a vax reaction is far more complicated to me than the VPD itself.  No one really knows how to treat these vax reactions....it''s trial and error, and since most therapies involve supplements and dietary changes, it's not something covered by insurance.  But if per chance my child gets a VPD, treatments are known (I'd opt for holistic first) and even if I needed to seek conventional medical attention for some rare complication, there is more information available to doctors about VPD complications than there is about the vax reactions.  So that's my reasoning.  I intended to be select/delayed, and my daughter will always be partially vaxxed, but for the future we will be non-vax.  Not anti-vax, just chosing to opt out.

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#145 of 150 Old 08-24-2012, 02:04 PM
 
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Herd immunity - it seems more complex than it appears.


In case of measles, re-exposure from either wild virus or booster shot can boost vax-induced immunity.  My limited understanding is it's different with naturally-acquired immunity.  It seems re-exposure doesn't boost the latter as significantly though it has remained at protective level all along - pls correct me if I'm wrong.

 

If there were enough wild virus circulating, a vaxed individual may be exposed and have their immunity boosted.  Otherwise, immunity might wane over time.  However, the more people are vaxed, the less probabilty of exposure to wild virus is - hence, the recommended booster vax.  Though I do wonder what the effect of shed vax virus is ...

 

The 68% figure above is interesting - and that was in the beginning of modern sanitation in the US.  If the vax issue were not so polarized, it'd be a very interesting discussion topic.


Pro rights (vaxes).
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#146 of 150 Old 08-24-2012, 03:11 PM
 
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I understand that some people have very good reasons, not to vaccinate.

 

I am uncomfortable with the idea of putting people into boxes:

-legitimate reason not to vax due to prior severe reaction   and

-not legitimate reason to not vax.

 

It is a slippery slope:  vaxxing is a parental choice, period.  

 

 

 

 

 I guess what I don't understand, I will look into threads addressing it, is the lack of belief in herd immunity.  

 

The words "herd immunity" frequently raises the ire of non-vaxxers.  The reason are complicated, however, and do not always come down to "lack of belief".  

-some people do not believe in herd immunity

-some people (including me) think herd immunity as it relates to vaccines is a fairly complicated issue.  "Herd immunity " is often brought up  with fairly little concession to other factors that play into disease.  Sanitation, nutrition, contagiousness (some diseases are not contagious) prevalence and effectiveness of vaccine.

-some diseases are not worth vaxxing over, IMHO.  I am not going to worry about herd immunity for a disease that does not worry me.  

-it is almost always trotted out in intense discussions to point fingers and blame people.  It could be an interesting discussion, but it cannot be accompanied by any hint of "you are endangering us all!" or it will dissolve into a flame war.

 

 

 

I did not say you "should" be grateful to anyone.  

 

No, you said this : "If your child is unvaccinated are you really not grateful that others are?"   You may not have used the "should" word, but you came fairly close. 

 

I am trying to understand, as the unquoted follow up question said,  if ladies on this forum who do not vaccinate at all on principal (without history of severe reaction) believe they would make the same choice if they lived in a country with very low vaccination rates and higher prevalence of these diseases. 

 

Depends on the disease, the vax, the prevalence of the disease  and the access to decent medical care. You asked if I was grateful? I am very grateful to live where I live.  

 

 

 

Several of you have said you made the choice to not vaccinate because of a reaction.  That makes total sense to me.  The statements that all vaccines are poison, or these diseases aren't dangerous, or that no one should get vaccines because they will get autoimmune diseases or cancer later on seem more like fear mongering trying to beat the other side (that is guilty of fear mongering as well), which doesn't do much to help me relate to the decision.

 

The word poison might be inflammatory (and is not used often here, as far as I can tell) - however there are interesting ingredients in vaccines, and they have not been well tested on infants.   That is not fear-mongerring - it is the truth.  Here is Dr. Sears on aluminum:

http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/vaccines/vaccine-faqs

 

Some diseases are not dangerous.  Rubella is not dangerous for children.  It is dangerous for pregnant women and their infants. This is fact as well.

 

 

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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#147 of 150 Old 08-24-2012, 07:19 PM
 
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 If your child is unvaccinated are you really not grateful that others are?  

I think vaccines are risky - I fear their side effects and doubt their effectiveness. My own research and experience have convinced me to hold off indefinitely on vaccinating my son. Wouldn't I be extremely selfish and parasitic if I were "grateful" to others for putting their children through what I see as dangerous treatments? On the contrary, i wish more people would abstain from vaccinating their children so that we won't have generations of people who are continually medicated during critical stages of development. Who knows how we are changing our bodies? I find the concept concerning, and the blind faith of many (along with the contemptuous supression of skeptics) very scary.
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#148 of 150 Old 08-24-2012, 08:03 PM
 
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Ladies- Thank you for clarifying your perspectives in such straight-forward and calm manners.  I was reading the archives and saw such collegial friendly debate on a few threads;  I am glad there are still people that prefer to discuss things in this manner.  We really can talk about this without vitriol.  duck.gif

I know it is an issue that is sensitive for many of us, and although I am trying to be sensitive, I may screw up at times, so sorry if use words that raise hackles.

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#149 of 150 Old 08-24-2012, 08:34 PM
 
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On the grateful question:

 

I have met (online) parents of unvaccinated children who are grateful others vaccinate.  Usually they are pro-vax at heart, and agree with pro-vax arguments, but cannot vaccinate their child due to medical reasons.

 

This is very different from someone who does not vaccinate because they think the risks outweigh the pros, and is non-vax at heart.  You are only going to feel grateful someone does something if you think the "something" is a good idea in the first place.

 

Ignore the join date next to my name (I have been here since 2006).  I have only ever seen one person say "I am grateful others vax, but I am not going to."


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#150 of 150 Old 08-25-2012, 02:54 PM
 
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agree...not grateful...because I don't buy into vaccinations or "herd immunity" in the first place. I actually feel concerned when freshly vaccinated kids show up for a play date and their parent doesn't even know what shots they just received a few hours ago...  no I am not grateful their child with bandages is sharing sippy cups and toys with mine... perhaps a medically unfounded concern but it still really bothers me.

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