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#1 of 77 Old 06-30-2011, 10:13 AM - Thread Starter
 
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The title says it all.  Do you think you should vax to promote herd immunity?  

 

If so, why?  If not - why not?

 

Does this differ from vax to vax?

 

I have to go now (work and kids - dontcha ya know) but will chime in later.

 

 

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#2 of 77 Old 06-30-2011, 12:32 PM
 
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Do I think of other people's health above the health of my children?  Nope sorry, it's my job to protect my children, not other people's children.  I will do other basic things though, not take them out when they are sick, wash hands often etc.

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#3 of 77 Old 06-30-2011, 12:38 PM
 
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For me this is not a black and white issue. I feel that herd immunity is a factor only in some of the routine vaccinations and while I appreciate the social responsibility arguement behind it (ie some people cannot get vaxed because of medical problems therefore everyone else should to protect them) I do not think anybody should be forced to inject something into their child they feel is  dangerous just to protect others. .


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#4 of 77 Old 06-30-2011, 01:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

Do you think you should vax to promote herd immunity?  

 


No.  That is not my responsibility as a parent.  My primary responsibility is to care for my own children the best way I believe. 

 

I understand herd immunity is a strong argument for people who are 100% for vaccines, but it is not a fair argument.  If vaccines did not contain such harmful, toxic ingredients I can surely understand people getting upset at those who don't vaccinate.  However, this is not the case.  Vaccines have the potential to cause many types of complications in children and sometimes death.  I can't see how we are all supposed to go along with such a procedure with no questions in mind about the ill effects it can cause. I did not have a child to have procedures performed on him that I don't believe in and that I feel are harmful, whether it's for the herd or not. Everyone should have the right to choose what they feel when it comes to protecting their own children and not be pressured about medical intervention that has been known not to be safe.  If it was, there would be no complications.  There should be nothing wrong with parents wanting to take a different, more natural avenue of care rather than resorting to vaccination.

 

The schedule in the 80s, where there were vaccines for MMR and DPT is definitely more manageable than what there are vaccines for today.  I honestly don't know why people blame the non-vaxers on this issue.  They should be blaming the CDC/AAP who have since tripled the schedule, making many parents start to question the motives behind the pharmaceutical/vaccine industry. $$$$$

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#5 of 77 Old 06-30-2011, 04:42 PM
 
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I think herd immunity is a crock of $***. lol


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#6 of 77 Old 06-30-2011, 05:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilbsmama View Post

I think herd immunity is a crock of $***. lol


Elaborate, please. 

 

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#7 of 77 Old 07-01-2011, 11:12 AM
 
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#9 of 77 Old 07-01-2011, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I pretty much agree with everything upthread on the philosophy behind herd immunity.  A special yeah that to Marnica.

 

 In some instances herd immunity might be a factor in deciding whether to vaccinate or not. I would need to consider:

 

1.  The side effects or unknowns about the vaccine must be less concerning than the disease itself

2.  It must be a contagious disease

3.  The vaccine must work

 

Looking at the usual vaccines, I rule out mumps, rubella and chicken pox as having a herd immunity argument immediately.  I actually think children would be better off in general catching the disease and acquiring life long immunity.  If for some reason they have not caught it in childhood, vaxing as a teen may be appropriate 

 

Measles is a difficult one.  I would prefer it if my kids did not catch measles - it can be dangerous (although isn't usually).  I do want the mealses rate to be kept low.  If measles is available as a single vax, I might consider it.  I do not think it is, and accepting the MMR when I do not think the mumps and rubella portions are necessary grates at me.  Not everyone agrees with me.  Some really do think measles fall under the acceptable risk and place it in the same category as mumps, rubella, chicken pox.

 

DPT - 

 

Diptheria is a vax success story as far as I know,  It is not a benign disease.  It is quite uncommon - I do not know if it was common or uncommon before the vax.?  If it was common before the vax, then vaxxing for herd immunity might be usefull

 

Pertussis :  I would not vax for herd immunity for pertussis.  It does not seem to be an overly affective vax.  People still get it - although it is often milder (or so they claim!).  I assume it is still contagious. I have also heard it is underdiagnosed.

 

Tetanus is not contagious.  No herd immunity argument for it.

 

Hep B is a higher risk for some groups than others (medical workers are one).  It makes little sense to vax the masses for herd immunity for it.  HPV is somewhat sexually transmitted.  Get the vax if you want to, but once agains it is more necessary for some rather than others.  Not a herd immunity disease.  

 

HIb might have a herd immunity arguement.  It is dangerous - if the vaccine works and the numbers were high before the vaccine, herd immunity and hib might be an argument.

 

So, herd immunity might be a valid argument (measles, hib, and diptheria)  for some disease.  I think it is pretty weak applied across the board.

 

Any glaring flaws in the above?  

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#10 of 77 Old 07-01-2011, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miriam View Post

The only time I have had the herd theory of immunization invoked AGAINST me is to shame me and appeal to my social conscience after the dead baby and other scare tactics do not work to change my mind.

 

When my best friend's husband was stage 4 cancer, we were told by his oncological team to keep recently vaccinated children away from him and out of the home.  If the recently vaccinated children are a health risk to a dying immuno-compromised cancer patient, why is vaccinating a plus for herd immunity?  That does not make sense.

 

I do not think you misheard.  Thanks for the input!

 

 

 

 

 

To the OP:  What are you looking for?  


This whole thing started because there has been a lot of talk lately of people vaccinating for herd immunity.  I figured we should just come out in the open and talk about herd immunity.

 

I think almost everyone who debates on vax knows that the likelihood of any child (travellers excluded) actually getting most VPD is really, really low.  So pro-vaxxers turn instead to "you must vax to keep rates low and help the immune compromised who cannot vax".

 

I do think keeping the rates low of certain diseases is in our collective best interest (assuming vaxxes do not cause more harm than the disease they are trying to prevent), however applied across the board it is a weak argument.  Not all vaxes and diseases are the same.  Nor are all people, for that matter.

 

 

 

 

 

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#14 of 77 Old 07-03-2011, 07:36 PM
 
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To the "don't believe vaccine induced herd immunity is real" people, why do you think we don't (and haven't for a decade) have endemic measles transmission in the US?

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#16 of 77 Old 07-03-2011, 10:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miriam View Post

To mamakay:

 

This is solely my opinion based on my anecdotal experience.

 

Reporting a disease is dependent on a doctor properly diagnosing the disease and reporting it to the proper authorities.  

 

This means lab tests that an insurance company may not pay for, 

- this means paperwork that a medical office may not have manpower for, 

- and it means that a doctor has to be able to diagnose the disease in front of him.  

Most doctors in practice are too young to recall measles as a common disease. 

 

My own son and his cousin had measles before they were old enough for the vaccine.  When my sister took my niece to the doctor, an intern examined her and told my sister that my niece's fever and rash was from a "virus".  When my sister asked what the name of the disease was, the intern simply said it was a "fever with a rash caused by a virus". (OMG, this person is a physician practicing somewhere today)  Later the older doctor came in and diagnosed my niece with measles.  

 

Three years later, the same thing happened to me and my son.  No one but the older, wiser, more experienced physician knew that the rash and fever were a viral infection known as measles.  

 

Both recovered well and are healthy today.

 

There are cases of children who do get measles, mumps or rubella after getting the MMR.  How are those reported to the health department?  Don't the Amish get measles since they traditionally do not vaccinate?  The CDC claims that there were 118 reported cases of measles in the first four months of this year most of them fully vaccinated, yet there were 3000+ reactions to the MMR reported to VAERS.  Is that progress?

 

My question to you is "Where did my niece and son get the measles if measles is no longer endemic?"  I suspect they got it from a recently vaccinated child whose viral sheddings made them sick.  

 

What do you think?  And how about answering some of my questions up thread.



How do you know those kids had real measles if no medical diagnostic tests were done?

 

Also, you know prevaccine a significant number of infants died from measles every year. Measles is much worse in infants than it is in older kids and adults. So, you think there are still a lot of infants going from sick to DEAD with measles in hospitals across the country each year, but NONE of them are being properly or accurately diagnosed?

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#17 of 77 Old 07-04-2011, 01:13 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miriam View Post

Another thing about herd immunity...

 

When one travels to another country, there are RECOMMENDED vaccines for travelers.  Why can't we rely on the herd theory to keep us healthy?  Why can't the people in the foreign country rely on the old herd theory to stay healthy?  Where is the herd theory in this dilemma?  The vaccines should help someone.

 

This too does not make sense.  It seems the only valid reason for vaccination is to get vaccinated.  No other reason.

 

 

The reason for travel vaccines is to protect the travelers themselves from disease.  A secondary reason in some cases is to protect those they might infect at home if they were infected while travelling and brought the disease home.  

 

Regarding the questions I bolded, have you looked specifically at what vaccines are recommended for people travelling to which destinations?  I'm going to assume not, since the answers are all there.  

 

Yellow fever is recommended for many tropical destinations; I got it before visiting Peru.  It is spread by mosquitoes (only specific varieties, and an infected mosquito can pass it on to its descendants.  Some primates can also carry the disease.  Thus, even if surrounded by immune humans who can't spread the disease, you can still get it, and so there is no herd immunity.  The best way to eliminate yellow fever from an area is to wipe out the mosquitoes that carry it.  Since you can't wave a magic wand and make that happen for every place you want to visit, they recommend the vaccine for protecting yourself. Vaccination can, however, slow the spread of the disease by preventing new populations of mosquitoes from being infected.  Some African countries which are free of yellow fever require travelers  from other African countries to have proof of vaccination to enter; they don't want someone coming in with it and infecting their mosquitoes.  

 

Typhoid is another that may be recommended for some areas.  It is spread primarily by contaminated water or food.  We don't generally vaccinate for it here because our sanitary systems and water treatment keep typhoid from being a problem.  Someone travelling to an area where typhoid was endemic due to poor sanitary systems would be at risk for it while there though, so the vaccine may be recommended to them.  If they did catch typhoid just before coming home and came down with it once at home, they would be extremely unlikely to start off a mass epidemic or anything since they wouldn't be contaminating our water or anything, but they could infect a family member or someone else close to them if they, say, made that person a meal shortly after using the washroom where perhaps they weren't quite as thorough in washing their hands as well as they should have.  The typhoid vaccine is only 50-75% effective in preventing typhoid, so while it decreases the chance that the traveler will get typhoid, I don't think it could be used to create herd immunity.  Cholera is a similar story, though I don't think they typically recommend the vaccine to travelers.  

 

The measles vaccine is effective enough to be used to achieve herd immunity, but many countries have too low a vaccination rate to maintain herd immunity.  This includes some European countries.  

 

So basically, to sum up an answer your questions, because the disease is spread by non-humans and so herd immunity doesn't apply, because the particular vaccine is not effective enough to create herd immunity, and/or because vaccination rates at the destination are too low to achieve herd immunity.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by miriam View Post

There are cases of children who do get measles, mumps or rubella after getting the MMR.  How are those reported to the health department?  Don't the Amish get measles since they traditionally do not vaccinate?  The CDC claims that there were 118 reported cases of measles in the first four months of this year most of them fully vaccinated, yet there were 3000+ reactions to the MMR reported to VAERS.  Is that progress?

 

 

Regarding the bold, that is not correct.  105 of the 118 (which is  89%) cases were in people who were completely unvaccinated for measles.  http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6020a7.htm?s_cid=mm6020a7_w

 

Vaccination rates among the Amish may be lower than in the rest of the population, but they do vaccinate.

 

105 cases of measles in people who were not vaccinated.  Another 13 in people who were not protected by their vaccines but wouldn't have been exposed, at least not at this time, if the disease hadn't been brought back to the US by an unvaxed traveler and spread largely by other unvaxed people.   But the number you should really be considering is how many cases of measles and complications thereof did vaccination prevent? 

 

We can only estimate, of course.  But France - which has a lower rate of Vaccination than the US, not enough to maintain herd immunity -can give us something to go by.  How do their thousands of measles cases, a few hundred cases of severe pneumonia from measles, 14 cases of encephalitis, and 6 deaths so far this year compare to 3000 reports of reactions to VAERS, most of which were minor, and many of which were likely not caused by the vaccine? 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by miriam View Post

My question to you is "Where did my niece and son get the measles if measles is no longer endemic?"  I suspect they got it from a recently vaccinated child whose viral sheddings made them sick.  

 

I'll second what Mamakay said.  Unless they were confirmed by testing, can you be absolutely sure that the first doctor wasn't right and it was some other virus with a rash such as roseola?  

 

And assuming it was measles, there are no known cases of anyone actually catching measles from a shedding child.  It could happen, in theory at least, but how unlikely that it would happen both to your niece and son a few years apart?   Your signature says that your children are grown.  Measles wasn't declared eradicated from America until 2000.  While it has been quite rare since vaccination, it was still around, and there were occasional outbreaks. 

 

None of that really answered the question you said you were answering though.  You say that "Most doctors in practice are too young to recall measles as a common disease."  So why isn't measles a common disease any more, if it isn't due to herd immunity?  

 

 

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#18 of 77 Old 07-04-2011, 07:23 AM
 
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Great response, Pers.

 

I've been thinking about responding to this thread, but there's so much going on in it that I didn't think I had time to address it all.  I will say, though, that I believe that herd immunity protects us from some diseases, I think vaccines are an important part of creating herd immunity, and creating herd immunity is one reason I vaccinate (secondary to my desire to protect my child, which is the primary reason).  Oh, and I don't think that having a disease necessarily provides lifelong immunity, so I do disagree that having a disease is preferable to getting vaccinated for herd immunity purposes. 

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#19 of 77 Old 07-04-2011, 07:31 AM - Thread Starter
 
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  Oh, and I don't think that having a disease necessarily provides lifelong immunity, so I do disagree that having a disease is preferable to getting vaccinated for herd immunity purposes. 



Is it better, though, and perhaps differs from disease to disease?

 

I suppose to really argue it  one would have to look up what percentage of the population is immune and how long they are immune for with both vax and disease acquired immunity

 

My suspicion is disease confers better immunity in general- but I would have to look it up.  If anyone has stats handy I would love to look at them.

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#22 of 77 Old 07-04-2011, 12:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miriam View Post

No, I think a lot of doctors misdiagnose measles the way the intern diagnosed my niece and son. How often does that happen, do you think? I never said infants are sick to DEAD from measles.  The drug companies would not miss that opportunity to use vaccine scare tactics.

 

 

No,  you never said infants were dead from measles.  That was mamakay's point, not yours.  If measles were still going around within our population, more than the small-ish outbreaks that we hear about in the news, then some infants and kids would still be dying of it, just as France has had six measles deaths this year.  A mild case of measles being missed by doctors (or no seen by doctors) is one thing and is entirely possible, but for your scenario to be true, they'd have to be missing actual measles deaths, which is harder to believe.  

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by miriam View Post

Yes, I am old enough to have had measles and known of contemporaries who had complications. I repeat:  "The CDC claims that there were 118 reported cases of measles in the first four months of this year most of them fully vaccinated and no deaths or serious complications, yet there were 3000+ reactions to the MMR reported to VAERS, that is 25x as many complications as confirmed illnesses.  Is that progress?   It is still safer  to get the disease and have lifelong immunity.  Why bother with possible complications that can be debilitating when a course of the disease in an otherwise healthy person ?  Why are vaccine complications preferable socially?  

 

I repeat: THIS IS NOT TRUE.  Well, yes there were 118 cases of measles with no deaths or complications in the first four months of this year, but only 13 of them were vaccinated.  The other 105 - which would be most of them - had not had even one measles vaccine.  My apologies for the bold, but I'm afraid my inability to be concise occasionally leads to my points being missed, and I wanted to make sure you saw it this time since you missed the correction in my last post.  Please see my last post to the handy link to the actual CDC page  on the subject.  

 

Also, as I said in my last post, you are not comparing the wrong numbers.  Comparing vaccine risks in a highly vaccinated country to measles risk in a highly vaccinated country does not show the progress.  To see the progress, you need to compare vaccine risks in our highly vaccinated country to what the measles risks would be in our country if we did not have vaccines protecting most of us.  Of course we can only estimate what that would be, but again, the situation in France, where rates are lower than in the US, serves as a example and warning with their thousands of cases, hundreds of serious complications, and 6 measles deaths so far this year.  

 

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by miriam View Post

My son and niece were diagnosed by the older doctor, clinically and by laboratory diagnosis.  Why are you picking at that? The intern would not even order a test.   I was there. I cared for my son.  Yes, my children are grown, and they survived measles. Something wrong with that?

 

Shedding is theoretical?  Why did the oncologists tell the family to keep recently vaccinated children away from the dying person?  Was that a mass hallucination?  What is it about recently vaccinated children that is a danger to immuno-compromised persons?  What drug company is ever going to fund a study to dis/prove that?

 

 

My point in mentioning that your kids were grown is that measles was only declared eliminated from the United States in 2000 - eleven years ago.  Before that, it was not by any means common, but it was still around, and in particular there were some relatively large outbreaks in the late 80's/early 90's which lead to them adding the second shot to the schedule.  Since the children mentioned had measles before being old enough to have the vaccine and are now grown, then obviously they had well before measles was declared eliminated just eleven years ago, so most likely they got it from another person with wild measles, not from a vaccine. 

 

Shedding for measles could happen in theory because they have found measles RNA in the urine of some recently vaccinated children and measles virus (vaccine strain) in some throat swabs of recently vaccinated children, so in theory others could be infected.  However, there are no known cases of this actually happening, so if it ever does happen, it is an extremely rare event.  How unlikely that it would happen to both your son and niece a few years apart?

 

Did the oncologist say to specifically to keep kids vaccinated with the MMR away, or just recently vaccinated kids in general.  Keeping kids with MMR away may be a good idea because of better safe than sorry and if anyone was going to be the first to get it from a vaccinated child, a cancer patient is a good candidate for being the victim.  On the other hand, flumist, chickenpox, and oral polio virus all have documented cases of being transmitted from someone recently vaccinated, so it may have been more those vaccines that the oncologist was thinking of.   Kids wouldn't be getting the smallpox vaccine, but any military members who did should also stay away as that one can transmit vaccinia (not smallpox).  

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by miriam View Post

When traveling, why can not a person depend on herd immunity? Why is it only in the US that the herd immunity works?  If the recommended vaccines do not work for a certain person, where is the herd immunity to protect that person?  When  a person travels to Mexico, why cannot that person depend on the herd immunity to the turista to keep him/her healthy?  

 

My husband was given vaccines against tb and malaria, and he came back with tb and malaria. Not a vaccine success story.

 

I'm confused.  I know you read my last post because I'm the one who mentioned that your kids were grown, used the words "in theory" to getting vaccine strain measles from a recently vaccinated child, and pointed out that the Amish did vaccinate (and where is your evidence that they don't, aside from a claim that misinformed people apparently like to scapegoat them for outbreaks?), but you are basically repeating your question without any acknowledgement of my answers, even to disagree with them?  I guess you must have missed that part?  Please go back and read it. 

 

As for Mexico, vaccination rates are actually better than here for some diseases.  Like the US, Mexico has had a few imported outbreaks of measles, but measles is no longer endemic there either, and right now a traveler is probably at less risk for measles there than at at home.  Also, as much as some people would like to blame Mexican immigrants for the pertussis outbreak in California, Mexico has not actually had a recent pertussis outbreak, perhaps in part because until recently they were using he whole cell vaccine, which may be more effective. Mexico doesn't have polio, and rubella is rare. Conclusion: herd immunity works in Mexico too!

 

Still the CDC recommends that people be caught up on the routine vaccines they should have had anyway because they especially don't want travelers bringing the disease home with them should they, for instance, stop and chat a bit with another traveler who happens to be from France and is contagious for measles prior to having symptoms.  

 

Travelers to Mexico also may be advised to get the hepatitis A vaccine (which now is recommended for all kids anyway, but older teens and adults may not have had) and maybe the typphoid  vaccine depending on their destination/plans in Mexico.  Hepatitis A is not on the regular vaccine schedule in Mexico, though it is available through some private clinics, so immunization rates are too low for herd immunity.  See my previous post for discussion of typhoid.  

 

There is currently no vaccine for Malaria (though they are working on one).   Your husband would have been given pills that are actually treatment for Malaria.   Sort of like how people at high risk of infection due to a dirty wound or medical condition may be given antibiotics as a preventative measure; to treat any infections that may begin right from the start before they can get bad.  I'm sorry it didn't work for your husband - malaria is awful.  The TB vaccine provides some protection, but is also not very reliable.  Wow, both malaria and TB at the same time - that must have been one unlucky trip :(

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by miriam View Post

I did answer it.  Most doctors, like the young intern who misdiagnosed my family members, do not know what measles looks like and do not test for it nor report it.  So, if measles is not tested for nor reported, it does not happen?  I suspect if there is a political reason for reporting disease, it will happen.

 

You seem to want to have it both ways.  Either measles is still common (just not diagnosed) so you don't have to to explain why it decreased, or measles is so rare that younger doctors today don't know how to spot it any more.  

 

So if measles is still a common disease that nearly everyone gets in childhood, then why did doctors and mothers and everyone stop recognizing it?  If not, then what changed to make it so uncommon, if it wasn't vaccination/herd immunity?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by miriam View Post

Pers:

 

The yellow fever vaccine is not recommended.  It is REQUIRED, according to the www.who.int.  

 

I thought we were talking about CDC recommended vaccines for US travelers.  CDC recommends yellow fever for many destinations, but has no requirements either for leaving the US or returning.  Mosquitoes that can transmit yellow fever only exist in very small numbers in very small regions of the US, so even if someone brought back yellow fever with them, the chance of passing it on to anyone else is very low.  Vaccination is for the protection of the individual traveler, not our society or herd immunity at home, in the case of yellow fever from a US perspective.  

 

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the WHO requirements are actually set by the countries that they are for.  As I said in my previous post, some countries require proof of yellow fever vaccination for travelers coming from or passing through areas where there is a risk of yellow fever to help keep yellow fever from being imported.  The WHO also recommends vaccination for several areas where yellow fever is a problem that don't require vaccination for entry, but like I said, those are only recommendations, and I'm pretty sure it is individual countries which set their own entrance requirements.  

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Measles is very contagious.  No vax is 100%.  It might be pompous to think we can eradicate a disease such as measles through vaxxing. 

 

In any event, this discussion has taken a turn to debating herd immunity and measles.  That is fine - debate away.

 

For myself, though, when a person says "you should vax for herd immunity" - I think I can very legitimately come back with "philosophy aside, herd immunity may work for certain disease, but is hardly a good argument when applied across the board."

 

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by miriam View Post

I had made the point before that the only time I have heard the herd theory of immunity invoked against me is when the disease scare tactics do not change my mind. I only mentioned measles because it is an obvious one for me.  Sorry.  But where is the herd immunity in Long Island, NY for pertussis? Or in Mexico for turista?


Bolding mine.  Yes, I heard you.  smile.gif

 

It is interesting you think measles is an obvious one for you - it is the least obvious for me.  I am way more firm on my stance wrt other diseases (tetanus and herd immunity?  Useless.)

 

I do not mind if people hash out measles and herd immunity - I might learn something - and it is one of the few vaxxes I lack clarity on.

 

 

 

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 But where is the herd immunity in Long Island, NY for pertussis?


Only 40 reported cases in a county with a population density of over 1600 people per square mile... sounds like herd immunity is working quite well, actually.

 

 



 

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by miriam View Post

I had made the point before that the only time I have heard the herd theory of immunity invoked against me is when the disease scare tactics do not change my mind. I only mentioned measles because it is an obvious one for me.  Sorry.  But where is the herd immunity in Long Island, NY for pertussis? Or in Mexico for turista?



By turista, I assume you mean traveler's diarrhea.

 

I think you might not be understanding the pathogenesis of E. coli.  You can't get herd immunity for it.  In a nutshell, all people's GI tract is colonized with E. coli.  There are lots of different types of E. coli.  Some are pathogenic, some are not.  Mexican children will get colonized with E. coli and will get diarrhea.  They are repeatedly exposed to it and then are colonized with it and it is no longer pathogenic to them (they have not developed "immunity" to it- there's a big difference).  However, their fecal material contaminates the water supply in Mexico.  When tourists go to Mexico, if they drink the water, they get the infection.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pers View Post
No,  you never said infants were dead from measles.  That was mamakay's point, not yours.  If measles were still going around within our population, more than the small-ish outbreaks that we hear about in the news, then some infants and kids would still be dying of it, just as France has had six measles deaths this year.  A mild case of measles being missed by doctors (or no seen by doctors) is one thing and is entirely possible, but for your scenario to be true, they'd have to be missing actual measles deaths, which is harder to believe.  

 

 

Exactly. Prevaccine we had 300-500 measles deaths a year. There is NO WAY we have endemic measles now, and there are either

1) no deaths, or

2) ALL the deaths being misdiagnosed.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by miriam View Post

I had made the point before that the only time I have heard the herd theory of immunity invoked against me is when the disease scare tactics do not change my mind. I only mentioned measles because it is an obvious one for me.  Sorry.  But where is the herd immunity in Long Island, NY for pertussis? Or in Mexico for turista?



The pertussis vaccine doesn't create herd immunity.

 

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/vaccine-efficacy-how-often-do-vaccines-work/dtap/pertussis-vaccine-and-transmission/

 

The measles vaccine does.

 

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/2010/02/11/vaccine-myths-round-two/

 

Mystery solved!

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Vaccinations , Selective Vaccination , Measles , Chicken Pox , Shingles , Pertussis , Travel , Immunity

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