Measles kill over 1,000 DR Congo children since January: UN - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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#31 of 45 Old 07-29-2011, 06:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by zylph View Post

Forgive me if I don't grant uninformed opinions any weight whatsoever.


Then (kindly) why are you posting on this thread?  This is a discussion board made up of all sorts with vastly differing backgrounds.  If you only want to talk to people you deem "in the know" then it might be good to seek out closed forums on health in Africa.  

 

I would also like to point out that babygirlie has spent time in Africa and does not seem to agree with you.  Even people with direct experience can differ in opinion.  

 

 

 

 

 

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#32 of 45 Old 07-29-2011, 06:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post




She was gently poking fun at a posters possible reason for starting this thread, and arguments in general, on the web.

 

A little levity, even in a serious thread, is a good thing.

 

THANK YOU!!  Benefit of the doubt: Maybe she wasn't deliberately misrepresenting my point; she may not have realized that there was a link to follow.... 
 

 


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#33 of 45 Old 07-29-2011, 01:04 PM
 
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Lovebeingamomma - offtopic and I will speak no more of it. I'm sorry that you are not aware of it but it is true and they told me the stories themselves AT the actual place. this is how things started. Maybe history has been lost or covered up but it absolutely the truth in very many places. The reverting to religion was a do or die thing of course they chose it and rolled their eyes. It's the foundation of christianity and all over their history.

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#34 of 45 Old 07-29-2011, 05:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by zylph View Post

If this is a serious concern of yours, may I suggest donating money to IPV vaccination in developing countries?  We don't have the money right now, but anything will help, and IPV is of course the standard of care in developed countries.


That seems like a major waste of money when people don't even have clean water. I'd much rather donate whatever available money I have to charity:water where 100% of public donations directly fund water projects. http://www.charitywater.org/

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#35 of 45 Old 07-29-2011, 05:40 PM
 
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My son's school had a walk-a-thon this spring:

"The eighth grade has been working on a project to raise money for a school in Kenya. The students named the company Water Warriors. They are having fundraisers, so they can have enough money to assist Kebeneti Primary School in Kenya with basic water needs. Please join us at our Walk-4-Water"

 

I donated $ to this charity, and I participated in the walk a thon. So Zylph, clean water is a serious concern of mine. I plan to help however I can, by supporting clean water, not vaccines.


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#36 of 45 Old 07-29-2011, 11:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Then (kindly) why are you posting on this thread?  This is a discussion board made up of all sorts with vastly differing backgrounds.  If you only want to talk to people you deem "in the know" then it might be good to seek out closed forums on health in Africa.  

 

I would also like to point out that babygirlie has spent time in Africa and does not seem to agree with you.  Even people with direct experience can differ in opinion.

 

 

Quote:
She was gently poking fun at a posters possible reason for starting this thread, and arguments in general, on the web.

 

A little levity, even in a serious thread, is a good thing.

 

I'm sorry...  I've been abrasive, and unfair.  It's just that my experience has lead me to take these types of things extremely seriously.  I wanted to point out a few things: in a country like Uganda, "neurotoxic effects from formaldehyde" pale in comparison to the real dangers of measles encephalitis.   And cholera outbreaks kill people from a lack of salt and water.  It's a different world, and the things that hold true here are not so much different there as completely alien.  I could go on, but my point simply is: Africa is Africa, and there's no place in the world like it.  Please leave any first-world preconceptions at the door.

 

 

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That seems like a major waste of money when people don't even have clean water. I'd much rather donate whatever available money I have to charity:water where 100% of public donations directly fund water projects. http://www.charitywater.org/

 

Of course it's a waste of money.  The OPV works.  Please continue to fund clean water.

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#37 of 45 Old 07-30-2011, 03:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zylph View Post

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry...  I've been abrasive, and unfair.  It's just that my experience has lead me to take these types of things extremely seriously.  I wanted to point out a few things: in a country like Uganda, "neurotoxic effects from formaldehyde" pale in comparison to the real dangers of measles encephalitis.   And cholera outbreaks kill people from a lack of salt and water.  It's a different world, and the things that hold true here are not so much different there as completely alien.  I could go on, but my point simply is: Africa is Africa, and there's no place in the world like it.  Please leave any first-world preconceptions at the door.

 

 

 

Of course it's a waste of money.  The OPV works.  Please continue to fund clean water.


I've read a few contradictory articles about the OPV now. What's going on in India? Does this vaccine only work in Africa but not India? Not just stirring the pot, but blanket statements need to be qualified.

 

http://medind.nic.in/ibv/t08/i5/ibvt08i5p381.pdf

 


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#38 of 45 Old 07-30-2011, 07:35 AM
 
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OK, this is not specifically on topic, but it does relate.  There seems to be this argument about those poor people in Africa who don't have access to vaccines and are dying, but here comes the big pharm with 3 MILLION doses of measles vaccine and I'm sure they weren't donated.  But some are ignoring that Big Pharmaceutical companies are experimenting on these same types people.  Not to make their lives better but for money.  I do not find giving vaccines to sick, malnourished children to be a good thing.

I would support clean water and food for these people before vaccines. 

 

http://healthfreedoms.org/2011/07/15/why-big-pharma-now-outsources-its-clinical-trials-overseas/

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2011/01/deadly-medicine-201101

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#39 of 45 Old 08-03-2011, 08:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by babygirlie View Post

Lovebeingamomma - offtopic and I will speak no more of it. I'm sorry that you are not aware of it but it is true and they told me the stories themselves AT the actual place. this is how things started. Maybe history has been lost or covered up but it absolutely the truth in very many places. The reverting to religion was a do or die thing of course they chose it and rolled their eyes. It's the foundation of christianity and all over their history.



although babygirlie and i disagree about vaxes, i agree with her about this.  lovebeingamomma - this type of conversion was/is standard practice for christians. that is how South America ended up catholic. read up on Native American schools in the US and read about the Inquisition in Spain.  geez, read about England and the split between the Anglicans and Catholics, read about the Puritans in the Colonies and how they treated Quakers.  i think it is pretty well known that this is a foundation of Christian history and practice. (carry on with vax discussion now)

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#40 of 45 Old 08-04-2011, 01:34 AM
 
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Quote:

I've read a few contradictory articles about the OPV now. What's going on in India? Does this vaccine only work in Africa but not India? Not just stirring the pot, but blanket statements need to be qualified.

 

That article is not accurate, but some of what it says is close enough to the truth.  One of the reasons the OPV is used in the developing world is that the vaccine polio strain does spread to the unvaccinated, in a subclinical (or essentially unnoticable) infection.  Apparently, that was not as effective in India as previously thought.  And any time you use a live virus as vaccine, you stand the chance of reversion, or in polio's case, the ability to cause paralytic disease.  OPV works, I can cite you case after case to that regard.  On an individual level, it does not work nearly as well as IPV, and stands a small chance of actually causing paralysis.  Your Yash Paul, who is not exactly an unbiased source, is actually a proponent of IPV for India, given the problems with the OPV.  But. the. money. is. not. there.  Hence my exhortation to BeckyBird to spend her money on IPV if vaccine-induced paralysis is a concern of hers.  But clean water is a more pressing need as far as money goes.

 

In summary:

1. There is no money for IPV treatment of Africa/India, the last reservoirs of polio.

2. IPV is more effective than OPV.

3. OPV works.

4. OPV has problems.

5. I could give a crap if you vaccinate your children.  Don't bring first world issues into real third-world problems unless you are sure of yourself.  Citing Yash Paul with no background indicates that you Googled "polio in developing countries" and posted whatever fit your preconceptions.  He's a member of the IAP, and very smart, but he's an idealogue.

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#41 of 45 Old 08-04-2011, 04:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zylph View Post

 

 

That article is not accurate, but some of what it says is close enough to the truth.  One of the reasons the OPV is used in the developing world is that the vaccine polio strain does spread to the unvaccinated, in a subclinical (or essentially unnoticable) infection.  Apparently, that was not as effective in India as previously thought.  And any time you use a live virus as vaccine, you stand the chance of reversion, or in polio's case, the ability to cause paralytic disease.  OPV works, I can cite you case after case to that regard.  On an individual level, it does not work nearly as well as IPV, and stands a small chance of actually causing paralysis.  Your Yash Paul, who is not exactly an unbiased source, is actually a proponent of IPV for India, given the problems with the OPV.  But. the. money. is. not. there.  Hence my exhortation to BeckyBird to spend her money on IPV if vaccine-induced paralysis is a concern of hers.  But clean water is a more pressing need as far as money goes.

 

In summary:

1. There is no money for IPV treatment of Africa/India, the last reservoirs of polio.

2. IPV is more effective than OPV.

3. OPV works.

4. OPV has problems.

5. I could give a crap if you vaccinate your children.  Don't bring first world issues into real third-world problems unless you are sure of yourself.  Citing Yash Paul with no background indicates that you Googled "polio in developing countries" and posted whatever fit your preconceptions.  He's a member of the IAP, and very smart, but he's an idealogue.


Wow, chill, mama. I was asking a question. I had read a couple of articles about the OPV/IPV and developing nations, I never said I was an expert. Hence, questions. You know, if there's a moratorium on gaining access to information and clarification, then I guess we'd better shut this forum down.

 

Hey, but thanks for showing me what that helpful community attitude is all about. Cool. thumb.gif

 

 

 

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#42 of 45 Old 08-04-2011, 09:11 PM
 
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Over 5% of the children in the Congo have HIV, according to web. One with Aids is quite likely to die from measles or whatever infection comes along first. Vaccination might help protect them a little where their immune systems cannot, though those with Aids mount weak immune responses to vaccines as well, rendering them far less effective, and vaccination doesn't guarantee that the next kind of bug won't get them -- it's more a matter of what hits them first than of the deadliness of measles. In terms of a healthy nation and measles, France found one death per 2 million population and one permanent disability per 2 million population from measles during a period of years when measles vaccination was quite minimal there (that's per population per year, in absence of vaccination, not per case of measles).

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#43 of 45 Old 08-07-2011, 07:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by zylph View Post

 

 

 

I like how you're laughing at an article that talks about 1000 dead children.  I know that wasn't your intent, but seriously.  These are real people and not a battle in some vaccination war.



No.  I'm laughing at a completely unrelated article that I linked.  Please read my post correctly. 


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#44 of 45 Old 08-07-2011, 07:51 AM
 
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It's been happening in Pakistan, as well, and that's super bad PR for the overseas medical missionaries trying to convince people to accept OPV.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/feb/15/pakistan.topstories3

http://www.dawn.com/2010/12/22/incidence-of-polio-among-vaccinated-children-alarms-govt.html

http://dailytimespakistan.com/polio-virus-cripples-10-children-in-sindh-in-four-months/

 

The push to force the OPV on people is getting downright creepy in Nigeria: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=138818232

 

Quote:

 

Authorities last week said noncompliant parents would be prosecuted.

 

I'm not sure if it's this coercive in the Congo, but I'd be highly suspect of a medical intervention if my government were trying to force it on me under threat of prosecution. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by japonica View Post




I've read a few contradictory articles about the OPV now. What's going on in India? Does this vaccine only work in Africa but not India? Not just stirring the pot, but blanket statements need to be qualified.

 

http://medind.nic.in/ibv/t08/i5/ibvt08i5p381.pdf

 



 

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#45 of 45 Old 08-08-2011, 06:23 PM
 
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babygirlie View Post. Raelize and Lovebeingamama -

You are all right. Historically speaking - missionaries have used terrible practices to convert people to their faith traditions. I know a little about this as my degree is in history with a strong emphasis in religion history. However, lovebeingamama is right that there are truly kind missionaries who treat their intended audience with love, respect and a spirit of service. I happen to know several of them.

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