Measles kill over 1,000 DR Congo children since January: UN - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 45 Old 07-26-2011, 10:28 PM - Thread Starter
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"A measles epidemic has killed 1,145 children in the Democratic Republic of Congo since January, the UN's Humanitarian Affairs mission in Kinshasa said Monday.

The epidemic "has already affected 115,600 children and killed 1,145" between January and June, the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) said in a statement.

This prompted the vaccination of 3.1 million children across five provinces it added.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/measles-kill-over-1-000-dr-congo-children-202705179.html

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#2 of 45 Old 07-27-2011, 12:04 AM
 
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maybe someone got vaccinated and spread the disease around.

 

So .9%  POINT 9 percent died but 99.1% were ok.

 

 

 

It's a tough call regardless of what you believe

 

 

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#3 of 45 Old 07-27-2011, 12:30 AM
 
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Okay, I don't vax, and I'd much rather my kid catch measles than be vaccinated for it... But 2% die from getting vaccines?! 2 out of every 100 kids? No.. I don't buy it. 


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#4 of 45 Old 07-27-2011, 02:04 AM
 
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Your right I did my math wrong.

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#5 of 45 Old 07-27-2011, 04:42 AM
 
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2 out of 100 die maybe in Africa where the Measles are added to malnutrition, starvation, various tropical diseases and HIV. In the statistics you can use any one of these causes as the cause of death. Sending our vaccines there is not going to solve the problem.


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Originally Posted by Gismobabe View Post

2 out of 100 die maybe in Africa where the Measles are added to malnutrition, starvation, various tropical diseases and HIV. In the statistics you can use any one of these causes as the cause of death. Sending our vaccines there is not going to solve the problem.



Not 2%.  That was from some other (since edited) figure.  0.9% died of measles in the congo.

 

It is possible some vaccines may be useful in some parts of the developing world - but yes, access to things such as decent healthcare, nutrition, sanitation etc  are more essential.  

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#7 of 45 Old 07-27-2011, 06:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Ah.  So we should sit on our hands and do nothing.  Got it.  
 

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2 out of 100 die maybe in Africa where the Measles are added to malnutrition, starvation, various tropical diseases and HIV. In the statistics you can use any one of these causes as the cause of death. Sending our vaccines there is not going to solve the problem.

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Originally Posted by MsFortune View Post

Ah.  So we should sit on our hands and do nothing.  Got it.  
 



Did she say that?  What are you doing?  

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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post





Did she say that?  What are you doing?  


Advocating and supporting more widespread vaccination

 

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That's terrible. Are they supplementing with vitamin A at least to mitigate complications? 


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#11 of 45 Old 07-27-2011, 07:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MsFortune View Post

Ah.  So we should sit on our hands and do nothing.  Got it.  
 

 

It's not like the only two choices are vaccinate or "sit on our hands and do nothing".

 

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Originally Posted by MsFortune View Post




Advocating and supporting more widespread vaccination

 

How does advocating and supporting vaccination here help the Congo?
 

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by ammiga View Post



 

It's not like the only two choices are vaccinate or "sit on our hands and do nothing".

 

 

Agreed.
 

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gismobabe View Post

Sending our vaccines there is not going to solve the problem.



Quote:

Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

 

It is possible some vaccines may be useful in some parts of the developing world - but yes, access to things such as decent healthcare, nutrition, sanitation etc  are more essential.  


I agree with you here. As for advocating more widespread vaccination, it's a band-aid and is not addressing the true causes behind the terribly high mortality of not just measles in Africa, but other diseases such as polio, malaria, cholera, etc. There's a lot more going on than the public is told. There is also widespread environmental degradation and pollution being heaped on top of the malnutrition and poverty. What about advocating widespread environmental clean up, soil remineralization, and more equal distribution of wealth and resources? That would certainly help.

 

http://www.i-sis.org.uk/PhilanthropyGatesStyle.php 

 

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Misrepresenting Gismobabe, whose post neither states nor implies anything about "sit[ing] on our hands and do[ing] nothing." 

 

Gismobabe's mention of convoluting factors affecting the data on these deaths--starvation, malnutrition, and, I'd add, lack of adequate health care--is a salient point...and one that I'm not hearing addressed. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

Did she say that?  What are you doing?  



 


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Originally Posted by Lovemy3girls View Post
 not addressing the true causes behind the terribly high mortality of not just measles in Africa, 

 


you know what the true causes of the mortality caused by measles is?

 

measles.

 

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I agree with you here. As for advocating more widespread vaccination, it's a band-aid and is not addressing the true causes behind the terribly high mortality of not just measles in Africa, but other diseases such as polio, malaria, cholera, etc. There's a lot more going on than the public is told. There is also widespread environmental degradation and pollution being heaped on top of the malnutrition and poverty. What about advocating widespread environmental clean up, soil remineralization, and more equal distribution of wealth and resources? That would certainly help.

 

True.  But there would have to be some extremely drastic changes in the way the world works for that to be true.  And if you truly want a more equal distribution of wealth/resources, you should be begging for vaccines.  You live in a country where computers, cars, doctors, and antibiotics are the standard.  Most people are healthy, and there's an effective health care system - you might disagree with me on that point, but I've worked in places like Zambia and Uganda.  A hospital with no antibiotics in the storeroom is an example of an ineffective health care system.  It is possible to address the problems of polio, cholera, and measles almost solely by environmental and medical measures - hygiene, cleaner water, etc.  That is not going to happen any time soon.  Really.   Vaccination is not a band-aid, as far as polio/measles goes in Africa.  It is the only realistic solution.  I have some sympathy for people in Western countries deciding not to vaccinate.... they have that luxury.  But don't you dare say that vaccination is not a real solution to a problem you know nothing about.  But.... the Peace Corps and Medicins san Frontieres can always use more volunteers if you'd like to learn.

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to keep this short. I lived in Africa. There ARE western type "civilized" *cringe* cities. I never noticed screens in windows or doors and the homes are very open. Hence the malaria epidemic which they are very concerned about. One thing was there was only one doctor for two countries.. COUNTRIES. When I lived in the village... hours away from any sort of clinic the entire  area all drank out of the same pond. A pond of about 800 square feet (small puddle you could walk around in 2 minutes). This was also the ONLY water supply for any goat, mule, chicken whatever animal might be there for miles. So you drank along side a goat in sitting water and no mosquito nets or doors or anything to hide from the bugs. Also everyone in the community drank from the same pitcher (beer is the only other thing they drank as it was the safest thing they can make).

 

So yeah.. I can see how disease would spread when no one washes their hands let alone their bodies and uses the road as a restroom (very common to just take a few steps over and pee where you were.. skirts are great for that) and who knows if that goes into the well water or not (not a big concern I would think).

 

And then you have shanti towns sitting just outside of towns with one water spout for 500,000 people.

 

I seriously doubt measles is even on their minds. AIDS and malaria and clean water are. Rape and murder is also really common.

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Is it really fair to go up to someone who has never heard of a vaccine and tell them it's a magic needle and they will never get sick to someone who has no way of questioning it?  It reminds me of missionaries.. we can kill you or you can believe in Christ.. but hey it's totally up to you!   Take this magic shot and we promise it will make you invincible.

 

You can't be everyone's mom/dad especially when they are given very little option or even understanding of what you are doing. It's unethical regardless of whether you think it's good for their health.

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Missionaries threatening death or conversion...the majority would never even think of such an immoral approach to witnessing.  Crazies are out there for sure but I don't think it's fair to make such a broad statement about all missionaries. 

Quote:
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Is it really fair to go up to someone who has never heard of a vaccine and tell them it's a magic needle and they will never get sick to someone who has no way of questioning it?  It reminds me of missionaries.. we can kill you or you can believe in Christ.. but hey it's totally up to you!   Take this magic shot and we promise it will make you invincible.

 

You can't be everyone's mom/dad especially when they are given very little option or even understanding of what you are doing. It's unethical regardless of whether you think it's good for their health.



 

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Translation: Don't you dare express an opinion that differs from my perspective!  lol.gif

 

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But don't you dare say that vaccination is not a real solution to a problem you know nothing about. 


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Hmmm...a severely immuno-suppressed hiv positive person already beset with nutritional deficiencies from poverty and an immense toxic burden to boot from poisons spewed by the oil companies exploiting their natural resources and raping their land?

 

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you know what the true causes of the mortality caused by measles is?

 

measles.



 


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An African point of view of vaccine campaigns, as told by Ugandan Kihura Nkuba:

 

http://www.ctvia.org/docs/ACF64A.pdf

 

 On measles:

Everybody in Africa knows that once you have natural measles and you recover from it, and almost everybody recovers and people have natural herbs to treat measles, measles will never come again. Indeed the elders in Africa scratched their head trying to remember when evil spirit could have engineered measles to appear second time in a victim. But the government and the wisdom monopolists of the World health organization that turned a blind eye to cigarettes and promoted formula milk not too long ago, are telling especially those who have natural immunity to go and get their fair share of these purified measles viruses. These viruses are said to be so harmless that to prove it the health minister gave them to his son on a small spoon, this was of course the ultimate proof were waiting for. The president however did not given to his grand child who has just been born in Germany, although there were a lot of pressure that he does this, instead he administered the vaccine to somebody else's child.  

 

"We are doing things to our children, that buffalos would never dream of doing to their calf's". Yet on the day of vaccination itself, the students whom they had targeted at school stayed at home, mothers hid their children in the bush, others were hidden under the bed. In most parts of the country particularly western and central Uganda, areas covered by Greater African Radio, the immunizers sat in classrooms without children as the boxes of contained the vaccines sweated in the chocking sun. The immunizers wore t-shirts bearing the words "kick measles out of Uganda" they had tops bearing the same message and plenty of American soft drinks.

 

What they did not see were anxious parents, or even children. At neighboring schools in Western Uganda, learners cut the wire mesh surrounding their schools and jumped to safety some swearing that they had better quit school than take the measles live vaccine. Some parents thought that this was polo vaccine disguised as measles.

The enthusiasm of government to give vaccines to a people that it normally gives nothing was seen as very suspicious.

 

The forcing of them to take a vaccine against a disease they know to be harmless and which they know how to cure in its harmful state was seen as government hell bent on killing its own population for the benefit of commanding whiteworld. All village people know that once you have recovered from measles you will never catch it again, but here they were telling people to vaccinate even those who have recovered from measles. 


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#23 of 45 Old 07-28-2011, 12:23 PM
 
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Quote:

Originally Posted by MsFortune View Post

you know what the true causes of the mortality caused by measles is?

 

measles.

 


If this is true, why do the vast majority of people who get measles survive and fully recover? Is it due to random changes in the measles virus, or is it due to the person's health and environment?

 

If a severely immunocompromised person dies after getting the common cold, do we say the cold virus killed him, or was the underlying health condition a bigger factor?

 

Why is measles more dangerous in Africa than in First World countries? We already know the reason. Measles is more dangerous in malnourished children severely deficient in vitamin A. Vitamin A supplements are effective in reducing measles mortality.

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I would gladly donate our measles vaccine since we won't be using any.  IF that was the solution.  No one know what consequences injecting toxic ingredients in a human body can have.  What will people in Africa do if they develop new issues (like the sudden rise in autoimmune diseases, cancer and such) like we're seeing now?  Vaccines bring risks.  What can parents in Africa do when/if their children have mild or serious adverse affects when they already live in the conditions they live in and don't have adequate health care?  

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Originally Posted by MsFortune View Post




Advocating and supporting more widespread vaccination

 


lol.gif  Really?  Here?  On a forum well-reputed for its presence of vaccine skeptics?  Are you sure there's not another reason for starting this thread?  winky.gif  (That's for all of us to laugh at ourselves, btw). 

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by MsFortune View Post




you know what the true causes of the mortality caused by measles is?

 

measles.

 

 

Then perhaps you can explain why the measles death rate in underdeveloped countries is significantly higher than that of the U.S.? 

 

Perhaps, to support your quote above, it's a new-and-improved mutated Super Congo Bug.  Or perhaps, based on the more realistic and scientifically accurate explanation, it is because living conditions in impoverished countries make measles (and pretty much every other disease) more deadly.

 

From that same link:

 

 

Quote:
Malnutrition. Malnourished children have impairments in multiple aspects of the immune system, prolonged excretion of measles virus, and higher measles case-fatality rates [9, 63, 192194].
Quote:

 

Vitamin A deficiency. Children with clinical or subclinical vitamin A deficiency in many developing countries have increased case-fatality rates [196, 197].

 

 

Quote:

 

Developed countries. Measles case-fatality rates have declined in association with economic development and associated decreased crowding, older age at infection, improved nutrition, and treatment for secondary pneumonia [206, 207].

 

 

Quote:
High case-fatality rates in developing countries are due to a young age at infection, crowding, underlying immune deficiency disorders, vitamin A deficiency, and lack of access to medical care.

 


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Translation: Don't you dare express an opinion that differs from my perspective!

 

Fair enough.  But I worked in a hospital outside of Kampala that had no antibiotics.  A hospital without antibiotics!  To say the problem with infectious disease in Africa is that they don't live like Westerners is true.  It's also incredibly condescending and utopian to say that the problem can be solved in that way.

 

This actually does make me extremely angry.  You have every right not to vaccinate your children.  Your own children.  But the fact is, the measles vaccine stops measles.  The polio vaccine stops polio.  These are facts.  In a situation where malaria and HIV are taxing the (almost nonexistent) health care system to the breaking point, anything... literally... anything that can help and is cheap is a godsend.  Vaccines are those.  I've already seen the results of the situation where a Westerner (Peter Duesberg) has problems with the Western health care system and takes that to SA, to Mbeki.  Hundreds of thousands of children are now infected with HIV as a result of that.  Forgive me if I don't grant uninformed opinions any weight whatsoever.

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Really?  Here?  On a forum well-reputed for its presence of vaccine skeptics?  Are you sure there's not another reason for starting this thread?  winky.gif  (That's for all of us to laugh at ourselves, btw).

 

 

I like how you're laughing at an article that talks about 1000 dead children.  I know that wasn't your intent, but seriously.  These are real people and not a battle in some vaccination war.

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#28 of 45 Old 07-28-2011, 10:57 PM
 
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The oral polio vaccine has been known to spread polio.

So, it's not really a fact to say the polio vaccine stops polio.

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#29 of 45 Old 07-28-2011, 11:12 PM
 
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The oral polio vaccine has been known to spread polio.

 

 

That's why polio is now more than rampant in the developing world, instead of declining, since the OPV has been given since the '50s there.  OPV shedding and reversion happens, but it's far less likely than contracting polio in an uncontrolled urban setting. 

 

If this is a serious concern of yours, may I suggest donating money to IPV vaccination in developing countries?  We don't have the money right now, but anything will help, and IPV is of course the standard of care in developed countries.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by zylph View Post

 

 

 

I like how you're laughing at an article that talks about 1000 dead children.  I know that wasn't your intent, but seriously.  These are real people and not a battle in some vaccination war.


She was gently poking fun at a posters possible reason for starting this thread, and arguments in general, on the web.

 

A little levity, even in a serious thread, is a good thing.

 

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