Do you think there is common ground in vax discussion? Effective communication 101. - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 146 Old 08-12-2011, 11:20 AM
 
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ROTFLMAO.gif "Sheeple" - Hilarious!  Oh, seeing this made my day...  :)

 

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Vaxxers on MDC are not sheeple.  

 

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#62 of 146 Old 08-12-2011, 11:25 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Maybe this is OT: - but why do people post in the main forum?

 

There does seem to be a lack of common ground in some ways (although I think almost everyone here cares about children - or why else would you bother?!?) and there is a history of volatile/assumptive posting ......  so why do you post here and should that influence how you post?

 

 

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ROTFLMAO.gif "Sheeple" - Hilarious!  Oh, seeing this made my day...  :)

 



Glad we are making your day wink1.gif

 

for further fun:

imgres

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#64 of 146 Old 08-12-2011, 11:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

Maybe this is OT: - but why do people post in the main forum?

 

There does seem to be a lack of common ground in some ways (although I think almost everyone here cares about children - or why else would you bother?!?) and there is a history of volatile/assumptive posting ......  so why do you post here and should that influence how you post?

 

 


I lurk a bit on the vax forums but don't usually choose to post exactly because of the polarization that inevitably occurs. And I don't just see it on the vax forums, but also in homebirth, UC, and elsewhere. There are places where it is just very hard for people to come together, because the depth of the issue is so deep and the differences are so fundamental.

 

To me these discussions are like people of deep religious faith and atheists trying to come together to find common ground. I don't want to say it's never going to happen, but it's rare.

 

I do think parenting is a journey of faith in many ways, at least that's how I've experienced it. Rational thought, scientific studies, and evidence-based approaches are of course part of all of our decision-making process, but I think that there's a deeper philosophical/moral/emotional/spiritual context that really drives what we look at and how we interpret what we see. And that context is the basis of our faith, and we more readily embrace things that affirm our faith and reject things that shake it.

 

So while it seems like we're debating 'facts' or 'evidence', often we're really seeing the clash of deeply rooted beliefs.

 

If there is a place where we can come together (on anything), I think it's the realization that as parents we want to prevent our children from harm and death, but we just don't have 100% control. For me as a mom, that has taken more courage than I ever thought I could muster. I would go to the ends of the earth to keep my DD safe. But my efforts and my choices are only part of the picture; she's part of a whole world, she has her own karma and her own path, and I can do my best, but I have to both embrace my responsibility for her and also let go. I can't control her destiny.

 

And that's terrifying.

 

I often think it's easier to get into heady intellectual debates with people than to let our hearts be touched by the truth that none of us has perfect knowledge and perfect choices. It's easier to ridicule people we disagree with & to strengthen our own position than to accept that a lot of parenting decisions fall into a gray area, and sometimes there is no "right way."

 

I wish on MDC in ANY forum, we could have a conversation about how to live with the knowledge that we cannot protect ourselves and our children from everything. And how to face death. Perhaps that's what the spirituality forum is for.


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#65 of 146 Old 08-12-2011, 12:05 PM
 
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I've finished reading the thread - I see it got a little heated.

 

My thoughts:  I do my best to respect everyone's opinions.  I try to learn something new every day, and in my life and in my past work, I know there's no final authoritative word on much of anything.  So I would never go on to any forum and act like I KNOW enough to tell another mom (or parent, whatever) what is best for her own family.

 

My background is in product liability (on behalf of pharmaceuticals - I KNOW!, right? - yowza) and even in the best situation drugs never work exactly the same in anyone that takes them.  My husband has more of the concerns of the non-vaxxers in this community.  For our family, we've chosen a really slow and fairly selective vaccine schedule because that's what works best for us.  And we come back to our decision again and again (our babe's an infant, so he has more on tap).  And we worked hard to find a pediatrician who is really conservative in the administration of shots.

 

Anyway, I like philomom's live and let live stance.  I, too, try to follow that one.  And another poster suggested a vaccine debate forum - that may be a good idea.

 

In any event, this seemed to be a nice thought exercise, kathymuggle.  And yeah, still loving on the "sheeple."  I find getting called a sheep totally offensive, but there's something so great about the word sheeple.  Sheeple.  Ah...love.  wink1.gif


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So while it seems like we're debating 'facts' or 'evidence', often we're really seeing the clash of deeply rooted beliefs.

 


This is so very true, and it applies to almost any aspect of parenting that's discussed on these forums...vaxing, birth options, child-led weaning vs. mama-led, how long to breastfeed, whether/how to supplement, level of  "free range" parenting, if any, approach to clothing, precise discipline strategies, immediate or delayed assessment for suspected special needs, educational choices, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

 


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#67 of 146 Old 08-12-2011, 01:25 PM
 
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Maybe I didn't word it well enough.  I was just saying that I'm noticing from some of the posts above that it seems many of the things nonvaxers say on any vaccine forum here is offensive to some who vaccinate.  My point was that nonvaxers should not have to walk on egg shells here as this is a place for nonvaxers to come where they should feel more comfortable to speak their mind, not hushed.  It should be expected that people are going to have strong opinions and different views here, one way or the other, and people have to expect that when they sign on to MDC. 
 

 


Who's saying anyone should have to walk on eggshells?  The key to having an educational, informative, and good debate is to respect the other sides position.  Which, IME, does not happen on this board (both sides are guilty).

 

The way many non-vaxers (from what I have seen, and there is a reason I do not visit this section of MDC very often anymore) talk about how vaxers don't do research, and just do whatever the Dr says is disrespectful.  Even when its qualified with "oh, but I'm not talking about MDC mama's, I'm talking about the other mamas, the ones that don't do their research".  Maybe especially when its qualified like that - b/c it shows a complete lack of respect for other parents who choose something different for their family.  Stopping yourself when you're about to say that, and thinking, "thats disrespectful, I should avoid being disrespectful" isn't asking you to walk on eggshells.  People can have strong opinions, and differing views, and STILL find a way to be respectful.

 

Also IME, non-vaxers here are plenty vocal, and don't get hushed.  I see fairly often in people's signatures the phrase, "vaccine injuries are 100% preventable", and others just put the no vax smiley.  And, as you have pointed out, there are lots of non-vaxers here on MDC.  The vax forum (even the main forum, not just the I'm Not Vaxing forum) is full of them.  Posting anything pro-vax gets a storm of responses by non-vaxers trying to prove that vaxing is terrible and should never be done - non-vaxers certainly have a voice then!

 

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#68 of 146 Old 08-12-2011, 06:48 PM
 
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OK....."sheeple" sounds really cool and I suspect it has its roots in yiddish...but darn, what does it mean and how do you pronounce it?


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OK....."sheeple" sounds really cool and I suspect it has its roots in yiddish...but darn, what does it mean and how do you pronounce it?



I don't think its roots are yidish.  I might be completely off base here, but I'm pretty sure its a play on words, and a combination of Sheep and People.  Sheeple, like sheep, just follow the crowd.  In the Vax Forum context, it is used as an insulting term towards vaxers to say that vaxers are like sheep - they just follow the pack and do what they are told.

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Who's saying anyone should have to walk on eggshells?  The key to having an educational, informative, and good debate is to respect the other sides position.  Which, IME, does not happen on this board (both sides are guilty).

 

The way many non-vaxers (from what I have seen, and there is a reason I do not visit this section of MDC very often anymore) talk about how vaxers don't do research, and just do whatever the Dr says is disrespectful.  Even when its qualified with "oh, but I'm not talking about MDC mama's, I'm talking about the other mamas, the ones that don't do their research".  Maybe especially when its qualified like that - b/c it shows a complete lack of respect for other parents who choose something different for their family.  Stopping yourself when you're about to say that, and thinking, "thats disrespectful, I should avoid being disrespectful" isn't asking you to walk on eggshells.  People can have strong opinions, and differing views, and STILL find a way to be respectful.

 

Also IME, non-vaxers here are plenty vocal, and don't get hushed.  I see fairly often in people's signatures the phrase, "vaccine injuries are 100% preventable", and others just put the no vax smiley.  And, as you have pointed out, there are lots of non-vaxers here on MDC.  The vax forum (even the main forum, not just the I'm Not Vaxing forum) is full of them.  Posting anything pro-vax gets a storm of responses by non-vaxers trying to prove that vaxing is terrible and should never be done - non-vaxers certainly have a voice then!

 


I disagree with the bolded.  An opinion that isn't strong is "You vaccinate, I don't, it's all good!"  A strong opinion no matter how it's worded, is going to offend someone and cause a heated discussion.  It IS disrespectful to say "I think vaccines are non-sense" because that's saying to the other side, "I think you're decision is non-sense".  But what's wrong with that?   You can still be sensitive such as not to say "YOUR kid bla bla bla", but just referencing vaccinations in general, I don't think there's anything wrong with saying "vaccinations are crap" if that's the conclusion you've come to (and no, you don't need to prove your point with vast amounts of studies and references (because that's impossible on both sides), there's no "right" way to debate).  The poster who said she posts on the non-vax forum because of all the "lies".  Well, that's sure disrespectful.  But that's her opinion too, and she thinks she's right.  And if she thinks I need to be saved...well whoop, at least I know she has good intentions, even though she's being disrespectful.  I happen to respect the decision to vaccinate, but a lot of non-vaxer's don't, and that's OK.  Same on the other side, there are vaxer's who respect the decision to not vax, and there are some who think we're idiots.  If you can't take it don't debate it.  Msfortune posts now and again to spread awareness for the need of more vaccinations...she's good intentioned.  I ignore her threads because I'm not going to debate with someone who has such a one-sided view of things...but hey if she thinks she's doing the right thing, go her.  This is an open public forum, let's just get over ourselves and move on.  Minimal moderation sucks (sorry, just my opinion), because the non-vax forum should be a judge-free zone, but it's never going to be, that's reality.  Sorry I know I'm ranting big time...blaming it on the hormones.  That's a problem in itself, with all of us, bunch of crazy hormonal women trying to reason with each other peace.gif

 


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I disagree with the bolded.  An opinion that isn't strong is "You vaccinate, I don't, it's all good!"  A strong opinion no matter how it's worded, is going to offend someone and cause a heated discussion.  It IS disrespectful to say "I think vaccines are non-sense" because that's saying to the other side, "I think you're decision is non-sense".  But what's wrong with that?   You can still be sensitive such as not to say "YOUR kid bla bla bla", but just referencing vaccinations in general, I don't think there's anything wrong with saying "vaccinations are crap" if that's the conclusion you've come to (and no, you don't need to prove your point with vast amounts of studies and references (because that's impossible on both sides), there's no "right" way to debate).  The poster who said she posts on the non-vax forum because of all the "lies".  Well, that's sure disrespectful.  But that's her opinion too, and she thinks she's right.  And if she thinks I need to be saved...well whoop, at least I know she has good intentions, even though she's being disrespectful.  I happen to respect the decision to vaccinate, but a lot of non-vaxer's don't, and that's OK.  Same on the other side, there are vaxer's who respect the decision to not vax, and there are some who think we're idiots.  If you can't take it don't debate it.  Msfortune posts now and again to spread awareness for the need of more vaccinations...she's good intentioned.  I ignore her threads because I'm not going to debate with someone who has such a one-sided view of things...but hey if she thinks she's doing the right thing, go her.  This is an open public forum, let's just get over ourselves and move on.  Minimal moderation sucks (sorry, just my opinion), because the non-vax forum should be a judge-free zone, but it's never going to be, that's reality.  Sorry I know I'm ranting big time...blaming it on the hormones.  That's a problem in itself, with all of us, bunch of crazy hormonal women trying to reason with each other 

 


But non-vaxers on here want the vaxers to respect their decision NOT to vax.  For them to say, "I don't respect your decision but you MUST respect mine," is quite hypocritical - and isn't going to win them any friends.

 

The second portion of your post that I bolded is sexist, and highly offensive.

 

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I disagree with the bolded.  An opinion that isn't strong is "You vaccinate, I don't, it's all good!"  A strong opinion no matter how it's worded, is going to offend someone and cause a heated discussion.  It IS disrespectful to say "I think vaccines are non-sense" because that's saying to the other side, "I think you're decision is non-sense".  But what's wrong with that?   You can still be sensitive such as not to say "YOUR kid bla bla bla", but just referencing vaccinations in general, I don't think there's anything wrong with saying "vaccinations are crap" if that's the conclusion you've come to (and no, you don't need to prove your point with vast amounts of studies and references (because that's impossible on both sides), there's no "right" way to debate).  The poster who said she posts on the non-vax forum because of all the "lies".  Well, that's sure disrespectful.  But that's her opinion too, and she thinks she's right.  And if she thinks I need to be saved...well whoop, at least I know she has good intentions, even though she's being disrespectful.  I happen to respect the decision to vaccinate, but a lot of non-vaxer's don't, and that's OK.  Same on the other side, there are vaxer's who respect the decision to not vax, and there are some who think we're idiots.  If you can't take it don't debate it.  Msfortune posts now and again to spread awareness for the need of more vaccinations...she's good intentioned.  I ignore her threads because I'm not going to debate with someone who has such a one-sided view of things...but hey if she thinks she's doing the right thing, go her.  This is an open public forum, let's just get over ourselves and move on.  Minimal moderation sucks (sorry, just my opinion), because the non-vax forum should be a judge-free zone, but it's never going to be, that's reality.  Sorry I know I'm ranting big time...blaming it on the hormones.  That's a problem in itself, with all of us, bunch of crazy hormonal women trying to reason with each other peace.gif

 


This is not an anti-vax forum.  It's called "Vaccinations".  If you just want to talk in an echo chamber, you can post in "I'm Not Vaccinating".  

 

And I'm not a crazy hormonal woman.  Comments like this are why we can't have a woman president.  I get that you are being lighthearted and flip, but still.  

 

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I don't think its roots are yidish.  I might be completely off base here, but I'm pretty sure its a play on words, and a combination of Sheep and People.  Sheeple, like sheep, just follow the crowd.  In the Vax Forum context, it is used as an insulting term towards vaxers to say that vaxers are like sheep - they just follow the pack and do what they are told.


LOL. Thanks  ^_^

 


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I'm saying that I don't care if people don't respect my decision.  So I'm not being hypocritical.  And you just go ahead and be highly offended if you can't take it in the spirit I meant in it.  Ya'll are too serious for my taste.  My last post. 
 

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But non-vaxers on here want the vaxers to respect their decision NOT to vax.  For them to say, "I don't respect your decision but you MUST respect mine," is quite hypocritical - and isn't going to win them any friends.

 

The second portion of your post that I bolded is sexist, and highly offensive.

 



 

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I'm saying that I don't care if people don't respect my decision.  So I'm not being hypocritical.  And you just go ahead and be highly offended if you can't take it in the spirit I meant in it.  Ya'll are too serious for my taste.  My last post. 
 



 


Hopefully just on this thread  - I enjoy reading your posts.

 

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I think people need to talk about the information they have, which often means talking about the dangers of something.

 

 


LOL!  I think you're onto something here. 

 

Perhaps when a scary fact confirms one's bias, it's a fact.  When a scary fact counters one's bias, it's a "scare-tactic" and "fear-mongering."  mischievous.gif 

 

Sorry.  Years of posting here is turning me into an ossified cynic.   

 

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I'm saying that I don't care if people don't respect my decision.  So I'm not being hypocritical.  And you just go ahead and be highly offended if you can't take it in the spirit I meant in it.  Ya'll are too serious for my taste.  My last post. 
 

 



Umm....I'm not really sure why its OK to be sexist on MDC?  The "spirit" may have been lighthearted - but even lighthearted sexism is offensive b/c it encourages that way of thinking.  I get that many women on here are SAHM's (I don't know if you are), but some of us aren't and don't want the pervasive discrimination against mothers and women to continue in the workplace - when this type of "joke" is perpetuated among women, it also gives the impression that its OK for men to think this way about us:  "Oh, don't argue with her, she's hormonal and unreasonable, just like all women."  Both in the workplace and out of the workplace.

 

I certainly hope that was your last post degrading women - its a "joke" that gets old FAST.

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I certainly hope that was your last post degrading women - its a "joke" that gets old FAST.


Hyper focusing on one line of the post gets old.  Is the goal to make us look at that instead of the rest of the post?  The rest of her post was pretty good.

 

If you are genuinely insulted, flag her post or start a spin off thread on sexism.

 

 

 

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Hyper focusing on one line of the post gets old.  Is the goal to make us look at that instead of the rest of the post? 


I agree.  I think in order to find common ground, the first thing we need to do is stop nitpicking, especially when something was obviously intended as a joke.   I don't get the need to jump all over it especially when it's not even part of the topic.   After all, I thought the point of this thread is to find middle ground, not to find ways to start more side arguments. 

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LOL!  I think you're onto something here.

 

Perhaps when a scary fact confirms one's bias, it's a fact.  When a scary fact counters one's bias, it's a "scare-tactic" and "fear-mongering."  mischievous.gif 

 

Sorry.  Years of posting here is turning me into an ossified cynic.  

 


Very well put.

 

I think it's due to human psychology. You want to keep your family safe. You want to make good decisions. You want to feel good about yourself and what you're doing.

 

When presented with evidence to the fact that you might have been doing something wrong (even though your intentions were the best), we tend to get defensive, because having been in the wrong tends to make us feel bad about ourselves.

 

Actually....I think I recently read an article that said something to that effect.....wait a moment.....ahh....here it is:

 

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/03/denial-science-chris-mooney?page=1

 


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I agree.  I think in order to find common ground, the first thing we need to do is stop nitpicking, especially when something was obviously intended as a joke.   I don't get the need to jump all over it especially when it's not even part of the topic.   After all, I thought the point of this thread is to find middle ground, not to find ways to start more side arguments. 



And being sexist certainly doesn't help find middle ground.  The person who posted the sexist remark is AOK to be offensive b/c she's a non-vaxer (just like you and kathymuggle), but I'm not allowed to call her out on it, b/c I'm a vaxer - who you have a personal problem against anyway due to prior arguments on this forum)?  Sorry - thats not really the way this works.

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#82 of 146 Old 08-13-2011, 09:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

Hyper focusing on one line of the post gets old.  Is the goal to make us look at that instead of the rest of the post?  The rest of her post was pretty good.

 

If you are genuinely insulted, flag her post or start a spin off thread on sexism.

 



I actually don't think the rest of her post was very good - she was saying that its OK to think us non-vaxers are totally LOONEY and to not respect our well researched and thought out decisions just b/c she doesn't feel like it.  She's NOT trying to find common ground - she's trying to be insulting.  Which she can head right over to the "I'm Not Vaccinating" board to do.  It doesn't belong on the Vaccinations Forum - which shoudl be a place FOR ALL OF US to feel at the very least respected and heard. 

 

Oh wait, ONLY THE NONVAXERS GET TO BE HEARD ON MDC.

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#83 of 146 Old 08-13-2011, 09:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

Hyper focusing on one line of the post gets old.  Is the goal to make us look at that instead of the rest of the post?  The rest of her post was pretty good.

 

If you are genuinely insulted, flag her post or start a spin off thread on sexism.

 



Hmmm.....if we're trying to talk about good communication here in this thread and how it is achieved....and if we're trying to BE good communicators...then I think we need to pay attention to those "one liners" too.

 

You can totally negate all the good you're saying by inserting one thing that is totally unacceptable to someone else. And while you can't ALWAYS figure out what might push the buttons of someone else, I feel calling someone "hormonal" and thus being dismissive of what they have to say, is an obvious no-no.

 

Good communication is HARD.


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#84 of 146 Old 08-13-2011, 09:32 AM
 
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This is not an anti-vax forum.  It's called "Vaccinations".  If you just want to talk in an echo chamber, you can post in "I'm Not Vaccinating".  

 

And I'm not a crazy hormonal woman.  Comments like this are why we can't have a woman president.  I get that you are being lighthearted and flip, but still.  

 



Holy crap. Right now I miss old MDC where this kind of cat fight would have *poofed*.
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#85 of 146 Old 08-13-2011, 09:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post

I actually don't think the rest of her post was very good - she was saying that its OK to think us non-vaxers are totally LOONEY and to not respect our well researched and thought out decisions just b/c she doesn't feel like it.  She's NOT trying to find common ground - she's trying to be insulting.  Which she can head right over to the "I'm Not Vaccinating" board to do.  It doesn't belong on the Vaccinations Forum - which shoudl be a place FOR ALL OF US to feel at the very least respected and heard. 

 

Oh wait, ONLY THE NONVAXERS GET TO BE HEARD ON MDC.


*cough*

 

....and the other hard part about good communication is not to get angry or offensive if your debate partner is. But if people don't manage that, things degenerate into a mud-slinging feast....fast.

 

Can anybody think of ways to get a conversation / debate back to the area of being polite if things have degenerated a bit?

Something that DOESN'T involve calling flagging posts and leaving the thread?

How can we get a debate gone bad back on track?

Suggestions?

 


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#86 of 146 Old 08-13-2011, 09:58 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kittywitty View Post




Holy crap. Right now I miss old MDC where this kind of cat fight would have *poofed*.


Honestly, the ORIGINAL SEXIST post would have been the one to make the thread *poof* NOT calling her out on saying something sexist and obviously offensive.  Oh wait, non vaxers are allowed to be as offensive as possible and get backed up by all the other nonvaxers.

 

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#87 of 146 Old 08-13-2011, 10:00 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post





I actually don't think the rest of her post was very good - she was saying that its OK to think us non-vaxers are totally LOONEY and to not respect our well researched and thought out decisions just b/c she doesn't feel like it.  She's NOT trying to find common ground - she's trying to be insulting.  Which she can head right over to the "I'm Not Vaccinating" board to do.  It doesn't belong on the Vaccinations Forum - which shoudl be a place FOR ALL OF US to feel at the very least respected and heard. 

 

Oh wait, ONLY THE NONVAXERS GET TO BE HEARD ON MDC.


edit suggestion - didn't you mean non -vaxxers in the bolded? 

 

SSM - you are being heard loud and clear.  I disagree with some of what you are saying, but you are being heard. 

 

In reference to the above (and maybe I should not have focused just on your post, but it was a handy example):

 

I find on MDC in general and Vaccines in specfic the  hyperfocusing on one liners.  On occasions the one-lines are relevant to the discussion and deserve focusing on, but more often they are simply a way to go off topic:

 

-because someone does not like the way the conversation is going

-because someone does not like the poster, or the posters history of posting on this topic

-the line is triggerring for you in some way

-to score argument points (even in your own head)

 

 

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....and the ot

her hard part about good communication is not to get angry or offensive if your debate partner is. But if people don't manage that, things degenerate into a mud-slinging feast....fast.

 

 

I'm not mud slinging, I'm calling it like it is.  There is a HUGE difference.  I can respect other peoples parenting decisions, but I do NOT respect people who cannot respect my parenting decisions - which is what was going on with the poster who said that we're all just a bunch crazy hormonal women who don't need to respect each others decisions - and you know, as long as she doesn't expect to respected she's not being hypocritical.

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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post




edit suggestion - didn't you mean non -vaxxers in the bolded? 

 

SSM - you are being heard loud and clear.  I disagreee with some of what you are saying, but you are being heard.

 

In reference to the above (and maybe I should not have focused just on your post, but it was a perfect example):

 

I find on MDC in general and Vaccines in specfic the hyper focusing on one liners.  On occasions the one-lines are relevant to the discussion and deserve focusing on, but more often they are simply a way to go off topic:

 

-because someone does not like the way the conversation is going

-because someone does not like the poster, or the posters history of posting on this topic

-the line is triggerring for you in some way

-to score argument points (even in your own head)

 

 

 

I vax.  That was a typo, I so sincerely appologize.
 

 

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#90 of 146 Old 08-13-2011, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post



 

I vax.  That was a typo, I so sincerely appologize.
 

 


I make typos too.  No worries smile.gif

 

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