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#121 of 146 Old 08-14-2011, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by emmy526 View Post

i guess i just dont' believe polio would make a comeback.    Just as i dont believe vaccines are the cause of the falling disease rates. 

 


And this is why at the end of the day these discussions go nowhere.  You can have your own opinions, but you don't get to make up your own facts.  

 

 

 

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#122 of 146 Old 08-14-2011, 08:27 AM
 
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Even in the case of Smallpox?  I can see that when it comes to certain diseases, but smallpox has been completely eradicated from the globe - no other disease has as far as I know.



 



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i guess i just dont' believe polio would make a comeback.    Just as i dont believe vaccines are the cause of the falling disease rates. 

 



I am curious about this too. How else do you explain diseases like measles, mumps, rubella, and chicken pox being so rare? Certianly we can all agree that herd immunity works very, very well for certain diseases we vaccinate against.

Is the question then whether or not you believe creating herd immunity through vaccination is a good thing? Because I think it's very hard to argue against the idea herd immunity doesn't work for a disease like the measles.


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#123 of 146 Old 08-14-2011, 08:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post



Trying to make it personal and deliberating trying to provoke...hmmmm...charmingeyesroll.gif
 

Say what you like.  Know tone and respect can impact whether people even listen to your POV- but if you choose to ignore that, it is on you.  

 

On the non-vaxxing forum it is the User agreement that says people should not go on trying to convert people.  The Selective and Delayed is also not open to people trying to sway them, so I am not sure what you are on about.  shrug.gif

 



Then why do I see people posting in the selective and delayed area posting asking for opinions about when and what to vaccinate for getting told that they shouldn't vaccinate for anything by all the non-vax people.

 

It goes both ways people. You can't expect your space to sacred but not anyone elses.


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#124 of 146 Old 08-14-2011, 09:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Mama2Kayla View Post





 





I am curious about this too. How else do you explain diseases like measles, mumps, rubella, and chicken pox being so rare? Certianly we can all agree that herd immunity works very, very well for certain diseases we vaccinate against.

Is the question then whether or not you believe creating herd immunity through vaccination is a good thing? Because I think it's very hard to argue against the idea herd immunity doesn't work for a disease like the measles.



This has been discussed in other threads recently, and is off-topic to this discussion.


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#125 of 146 Old 08-14-2011, 09:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MsFortune View Post




And this is why at the end of the day these discussions go nowhere.  You can have your own opinions, but you don't get to make up your own facts.  

 

 

 



She didn't make up any facts - she stated what she believed.  She said "I don't believe..." twice.

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#126 of 146 Old 08-14-2011, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post





She didn't make up any facts - she stated what she believed.  She said "I don't believe..." twice.


facts are facts - you do not have to believe in them

 

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#127 of 146 Old 08-14-2011, 09:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MsFortune View Post

facts are facts - you do not have to believe in them

 


 

When you are saying "I believe" you are NOT stating a fact. You are stating a belief.

 

You are coming out and saying that, at this point, you are NOT able to make the call of whether what you're saying is applicable or not...you merely believe that it is likely.

 

Many people believe that there is a God. That does not mean that God's existence is a fact.

 

(Not that I'm trying to start a debate about the existence of God...it's merely a very good example to illustrate the difference between facts and beliefs)


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#128 of 146 Old 08-14-2011, 10:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post





This has been discussed in other threads recently, and is off-topic to this discussion.



Well I guess I haven't seen those other threads....care to link them for me? 


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#129 of 146 Old 08-14-2011, 10:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Marnica View Post

Take the Germ theory of disease (ripped off by Pasteur)  for instance that believe that fixed species of microbes from an external source invade the body and are the first cause of infectious disease - case closed. There are alternatives points of view such as that the presence of germs does not constitute the presence of a disease. Bacteria are scavengers of nature. They reduce dead tissue to its smallest element. Germs or bacteria have no influence, whatsoever, on live cells. They are not the cause of the disease, any more than flies and maggots cause garbage. Flies and  maggots do not cause garbage but rather feed on it. 


With this idea, what causes the symptoms?  For instance the marks from chicken pox or the sore throat from strep bacteria - are you saying these things would happen anyway even if chickenpox virus or strep wasn't there because something else is causing them?  And that something happening also makes it a good environment for chickenpox/strep to enter too so that's why we find them?  Or do you mean that chickenpox virus does cause the sores and strep bacteria does cause the sore throat but this wouldn't happen and the virus/bacteria would be harmless if there wasn't already dead or damaged cells there from some other cause?  

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#130 of 146 Old 08-14-2011, 10:22 AM
 
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Speaking of going OT, this really isn't the thread to debate the merits of vaccination.  Maybe we could start a new one if people are really interested in hearing what others believe.  This thread is supposed to be about how we can establish respectful conversation.  And personally I think that's pretty important, because when people are disrespectful it makes others less likely to listen to them.

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#131 of 146 Old 08-14-2011, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by JollyGG View Post





Then why do I see people posting in the selective and delayed area posting asking for opinions about when and what to vaccinate for getting told that they shouldn't vaccinate for anything by all the non-vax people.

 

It goes both ways people. You can't expect your space to sacred but not anyone elses.



I don't think people should post in the selective and delayed unless they can be respectful to the intent of the forum. Likewise the non-vax forum.  We are all responsible for our own behaviour.  

 

 

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#132 of 146 Old 08-14-2011, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Kanna View Post




 

When you are saying "I believe" you are NOT stating a fact. You are stating a belief.

 

You are coming out and saying that, at this point, you are NOT able to make the call of whether what you're saying is applicable or not...you merely believe that it is likely.

 

Many people believe that there is a God. That does not mean that God's existence is a fact.

 

(Not that I'm trying to start a debate about the existence of God...it's merely a very good example to illustrate the difference between facts and beliefs)


You are stating a belief in your existence of a fact.  You can believe the earth is flat all you want, but it does not make the world flat.  And I guess people are entitled to not believe things that are established facts, but it sure makes a rational discussion with them pretty pointless.

 

 

 

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#133 of 146 Old 08-14-2011, 02:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MsFortune View Post




You are stating a belief in your existence of a fact.  You can believe the earth is flat all you want, but it does not make the world flat.  And I guess people are entitled to not believe things that are established facts, but it sure makes a rational discussion with them pretty pointless.

 

 

 



That vaccines are responsible for wiping out diseases is not an established fact.  It is widely believed, but cannot be proven as fact, and after all, correlation does not equal causation, right?


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#134 of 146 Old 08-14-2011, 02:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MsFortune View Post

You are stating a belief in your existence of a fact.  You can believe the earth is flat all you want, but it does not make the world flat.  And I guess people are entitled to not believe things that are established facts, but it sure makes a rational discussion with them pretty pointless.
 


But by calling it a belief and not a fact, you are making the concession that someone else has the right to believe in somthing different (unless you're with the spanisch Inquisition).

If you call it a fact and the other person says somthing different, you're basically calling them ignorant, with no mitigating factors present.

 

Plus, humans aren't really completely rational creatures. We'd like to think we are, but we're not. A lot of our decision making process is rooted in our feelings, and we need to take that into account when talking to others.

 


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#135 of 146 Old 08-14-2011, 04:01 PM
 
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That vaccines are responsible for wiping out diseases is not an established fact.  It is widely believed, but cannot be proven as fact, and after all, correlation does not equal causation, right?


Then what else eradicated Small Pox from the globe?  There is no other reasonable explanation for that.  And while other diseases have not been eradicated, there is evidence that immunizing people against getting diseases lessens the chance that there will be large outbreaks, and lowers the incidents of individuals getting those diseases.  Correlation doesn't always mean causation, but in the case of vaccines there is a strong connection in some cases (the flu vax being one that I don't get for me or my son b/c its effectiveness depends on how well epidemiologists guess each year).

 

 

 

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#136 of 146 Old 08-14-2011, 05:30 PM
 
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Then what else eradicated Small Pox from the globe?  There is no other reasonable explanation for that.  And while other diseases have not been eradicated, there is evidence that immunizing people against getting diseases lessens the chance that there will be large outbreaks, and lowers the incidents of individuals getting those diseases.  Correlation doesn't always mean causation, but in the case of vaccines there is a strong connection in some cases (the flu vax being one that I don't get for me or my son b/c its effectiveness depends on how well epidemiologists guess each year).

 

 

 


You're asking for my opinion or beliefs, and regardless of whether they mesh with yours or not, do not make them facts.

 

Absence of another reasonable explanation is subjective and far from being "fact".

 

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#137 of 146 Old 08-14-2011, 09:43 PM
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Plus, humans aren't really completely rational creatures. 


 Agreed - 100%

 

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#138 of 146 Old 08-15-2011, 08:33 PM
 
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Glad we are making your day wink1.gif

 

for further fun:

imgres


ROTFLMAO.gif

 

While we're at it, how about some humor more applicable to the vax forum?

 

 

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#139 of 146 Old 08-16-2011, 05:33 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post




ROTFLMAO.gif

 

While we're at it, how about some humor more applicable to the vax forum?

 

 

I have seen that and it is sooooo true!
 

 

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#140 of 146 Old 08-22-2011, 02:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

I am growing weary of the cyclical nature of many of these discussions.  I do not see much middle ground at the moment - and wonder how we can learn anything from each other if we do not get past some stumbling blocks.

 

 

I am bravely going to hit submit.  If anyone wants to add to the list, feel free.  If anyone has any idea on how (if?) vaxxers and non-vaxxers can communicate in a way in which either party understands the other a little better, please add. Vaccination (or not) is one of the weightiest decisions parents make - it would be nice if we could talk about it more effectively.  I know the above tone in the lists is harsh, but I figure if we get it all out - we might be able to move on more effectively.

 

 

 

 



 

There isn't middle ground. I only got to page 3 before maxxing out multi quote but I'm not clear what the desired end result of this proposal is. 
 

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Yeah - I think I was just getting stuff off my chest in the OP.  

 

I am tired of some of the cyclical nature of some of these debates - but maybe the reason they get so cyclical is because people do not feel heard.

 

I do not know if this is remediable - is there common ground on some of the big ideas?



One thing that will stop cyclical debates is no longer expecting other people to accept your opinion when they come from a completely different world view and have no desire to adopt yours. I quit debating vaxxers a long time ago. My decision was made 20+ years ago.  



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Originally Posted by Kanna View Post




Those guidelines (or rather the link to them) don't exactly jump out at you when you're a newbie and just browsing.

And "I'm not vaccinating" can be taken as a conversation starter (I know I did).

 

I'm wondering if, since there seem to be a lot of "new" people around, maybe it'd make sense to change the Forum's name, so the purpose is a bit more clearer from the start?

 

Granted, something like "Pro-Vax only please", doesn't sound really cool....but it's a clearer statement of purpose.

 


We don't have a pro vax forum period. I'm not vaccinating is pretty darned clear to me and the many other people that post there. And I'm also going to call Godwins law, seriously Hitler references on only the second page. sigh.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by oaktreemama View Post

 

 

 

If you chose not to accept western medicine, or to dismiss that brand of expertise so be it. 

 

 



Just an FYI, choosing not to vax does not make one anti western medicine.


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delicateflower View Post


 

 

It's important to make sure that people making such an important decision have all the facts. They're not going to get all the facts from rabid anti-vaxxers. 



LMAO, really, not sure where you live but in the USA there is no escaping pro vax information and media push. Non vaxers are in no danger of missing the pro vax message. 


 

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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post





It isn't just this thread.

 

I was thinking about this yesterday, and one of my main gripes is that non-vaxxers on MDC are always in a position of having to defend themselves.  

 

 

 


no we aren't. We can choose to engage or not. No one forces us to waste our time debating with pro vaxers and disputing their repetitive claims. 

 

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#141 of 146 Old 08-22-2011, 06:41 PM
 
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We don't have a pro vax forum period. I'm not vaccinating is pretty darned clear to me and the many other people that post there. And I'm also going to call Godwins law, seriously Hitler references on only the second page. sigh.

 

Ah, come on ^_^

 

Even though "WildKingdom" brought up Hilter's "Mein Kampf" and the Jews, I wouldn't count this as a case where you can apply Godwins law.

Under the circumstances, she had a possibly valid concern about the influence of a source on the value of the information and Hitler is a really good example for that.


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#142 of 146 Old 08-23-2011, 04:35 PM
 
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no we aren't. We can choose to engage or not. No one forces us to waste our time debating with pro vaxers and disputing their repetitive claims. 

 


Yours are just as repetitive shrug.gif

 

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#143 of 146 Old 08-23-2011, 07:08 PM
 
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really I am? I don't bother engaging you guys so I don't see how I am. 

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#144 of 146 Old 08-24-2011, 06:01 AM
 
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Your arguments.  The No-vax arguments.  You know what I meant.

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#145 of 146 Old 08-31-2011, 06:00 AM
 
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Seriously? This is hilarious! I am a non-vaxer and I have friends who DO vax and we have NEVER gotten "into it" over vaxing. We know each others take on the story and we respect each others decisions about this subject. We are doing what we think is right for *our* families. And no one should tell someone else how to raise their children. Except for of course in the case of abuse. I find that both sides end up fighting and trying to defend what they believe and the conversation just ends up at a dead end. 

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#146 of 146 Old 08-31-2011, 06:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Seriously? This is hilarious! I am a non-vaxer and I have friends who DO vax and we have NEVER gotten "into it" over vaxing. We know each others take on the story and we respect each others decisions about this subject. We are doing what we think is right for *our* families. And no one should tell someone else how to raise their children. Except for of course in the case of abuse. I find that both sides end up fighting and trying to defend what they believe and the conversation just ends up at a dead end. 



In real life I have never gotten into it over vaccines, except with doctors and the like.  Most of that has been respectful.  I have had supportive family but others do not.

 

In any event, online is some sort of alternate reality where the walls are down and the fallout from saying what you really think is low...so you do it.  For good or bad.

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