Physicians refuse to treat non-vaxed children - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 65 Old 09-09-2011, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I thought some people might be interested in this.

 

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/297926

 

Ideas?  Opinions?

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#2 of 65 Old 09-09-2011, 08:08 AM
 
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It's against AAP recommendation to refuse to see unvaccinated children. Furthermore, they not only exclude unvaccinated children, but also selective/delayed vaccinating families. I think it's just a scare tactic to force parents to do what they want. Committed parents will just find other doctors.

 

I think over time doctors also will start to refuse to see adult patients who don't get yearly shots and such... Pretty soon my family will only have access to emergency care in this country! I don't want to see a doctor though anyways who refuses to let me choose my own health care, and hence a doctor who has blatant disregard for informed choice.

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#3 of 65 Old 09-09-2011, 08:32 AM
 
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This line made me laugh:

 

You're dealing with someone who is not trusting you and your advice," he said. "So, when will they trust your advice?"

 

translation: a patient that does not listen to me or take my advice about vaccines will not listen to me or take my advice about ANYTHING. This black and white thinking is dangerous.

 

 

People can have different viewpoints and opinions on things and still work together and maintain meaningful relationships. Why should it be any different with one's doctor? I'm a psychiatric social worker. I mean HOLY CRAP!! If I fired every patient I see because they didn't follow my advice, I would have NO PATIENTS! I work with some very seriously mentally ill patients. Those people still have the right to refuse to take medications even if they are delusional, and psychotic. I can't imagine telling one of them I won't help you anymore because you won't take medication. One of the first things one is taught in social work school is "start where the patient is". Seems like they should be teaching that in med school as well.


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#4 of 65 Old 09-09-2011, 10:16 AM
 
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I take some medicine and refuse others. I have my kids take some vaxes and not others. Any one who talks to me more than 5 minutes knows that I've spent hours researching my family's health issues and possible treatments vs possible side effects. I personally have not had any issues finding someone to "work with me". A doctor is a human tool. She/he went to medical school, I did not. Parents and doctors should always be a team for the patient.
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#5 of 65 Old 09-09-2011, 04:06 PM
 
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Now, pediatricians across the country — and particularly in vaccine-averse pockets such as northern Idaho, Boulder, Colo., Washington State and Marin County, Calif. — are stuck figuring out how to respond to patients whose parents obtain immunization exemptions on medical, philosophical or religious grounds. Although the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) recommends doctors continue to treat — and educate — anti-vaccine families, some pediatricians are electing to “fire” patients who swear off vaccines.

Read more: http://healthland.time.com/2011/08/04/should-pediatricians-fire-patients-whose-parents-dont-vaccinate-them/#ixzz1XV226dGk

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#6 of 65 Old 09-09-2011, 05:00 PM
 
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                 --and educate--

What the heck? Lol, they need to educate us. Right!

 

Now, to play the devil's advocate, I do understand why physicians want to fire the parents who don't vaccinate. They wholeheartedly believe that vaccines are good, and they are frustrated that parents won't listen to their recommendations. You know, they go through so many years of education, and it must be irritating to have these know-it-all parents think they know more about medicine. I can see why some doctors would be frustrated with that.

 

Do I think it's right to fire a family who doesn't vaccinate? No. I wish there were more doctors who were supportive of delayed/selective and non-vaccinating families. But, as long as the "doctored" vaccine "facts" prevail in medical school, we don't have much of a chance. Doctors believe what they are taught, and it is at this level where there needs to be a change. We can help make the change by continuing to speak out. This will help force the medical establishment to tell the truth.

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#7 of 65 Old 09-10-2011, 02:04 PM
 
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Any pediatrician who refused to treat my (delayed vaxed) child wouldn't have to worry...I would refuse to let such a doctor treat my child.  Anyone who is not willing to respect MY place as my child's mother isn't someone I would feel comfortable with.

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#9 of 65 Old 09-16-2011, 07:31 AM
 
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IMO, doctors (if they are independant) or their employers (if they work for a hospital practice) should have a right to decide who they will establish a long term care relationship with.  If they feel that a patient's beliefs or behaviors will hinder what they consider appropriate health care, and that patient is set on those behaviors and beliefs, it wouldn't be a great doctor patient relationship anyway.

 

And likewise, patients should be able to choose practictioners who respect their views on health, and are willing to work with them.

 

Obviously, there needs to be some allowance for emergency care, and I believe there are laws regarding that.  But long-term doctor-patient relationships do tend to work better if there is understanding, agreement, and trust on both ends.

 

And this is not just vaccine-related.  The same issue happens revolving around pregnancy and birth.  And there are many reasons a doctor might need to "fire" a patient from their practice, very valid reasons too.   I am sure liability plays a part in this as well.  A practice could concievably face serious repercussions, either legal or in terms of patients coming to see them, if they are known to accept non-vaccinated patients and an outbreak of a vaccine-preventable disease were to be traced back to their waiting room.

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#10 of 65 Old 09-27-2011, 12:41 AM
 
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I'm actually having some trouble finding a pediatrician who doesn't automatically refuse to work with an unvaccinated/selectively vaccinated child.  It's a touchy subject for everyone.

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#11 of 65 Old 09-27-2011, 03:20 AM
 
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 A practice could concievably face serious repercussions, either legal or in terms of patients coming to see them, if they are known to accept non-vaccinated patients and an outbreak of a vaccine-preventable disease were to be traced back to their waiting room.

 

The "BAD MOMMY" form and the Dr documenting that the parent was educated about vaccinations and refused them against medical advice will protect the Dr against legal action. Being careful about scheduling could fix other issues- scheduling newborns to visit before older children, not making newborns hang out for an hour in the waiting room, having separate "sick" and "well child" rooms, not having toys/books in the waiting area (can transmit germs) or having sani-wipes that parents can use to wipe off toys before/after the children play with them. How about scheduling non-vaxy patients last in the day? Make them wait outside in the parking lot holding one of those pagers that restaurants use? Nah- probably easier just to fire non vaxers. Oh and they better fire vaccinated children with VPD's too just to be on the safe side.


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#12 of 65 Old 09-28-2011, 01:32 PM
 
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#13 of 65 Old 10-01-2011, 07:24 PM
 
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Another problem is that there are fewer and fewer doctors that practice outside of large medical groups. A physician with an independent or smaller practice is more easily able to practice in whatever manner they choose. However, in a larger group, even those that might be willing to treat unvaccinated children, might not be able to exercise that option because the practice is likely to have a "policy" that governs the way that all physicians in the group will practice. These "policies" will undoubtedly reflect the way the mainstream medical community is moving, i.e. taking a harder stance toward vaccination.

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#14 of 65 Old 10-03-2011, 02:44 PM
 
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The trouble with this policy is that if every practice adopts it, those of us who selectively vaccinate eventually won't be able to vaccinate at all.  If doctors everywhere are booting us naughty, non-compliant parents, where are we going to get the vaccines that we DO want? 

 

Fortunately, I still have options in my area, but not everybody does.  By taking choice away from parents and families, they are shooting themselves in the foot.; if they force us to choose between all or nothing, it will usually end up being nothing.  We don't have to get any vaccines AT ALL, so if public health and children's lives were truly that concerning to physicians, you'd think they'd at least be willing to work with those of us on alternative schedules rather than force us into a situation where we cannot vaccinate at all.   

 

ETA: I got a kick out of this segment.

 

 

Quote:

Gard said that he and his 10 colleagues at Physicians to Children do not believe they are abandoning patients. He said instead he believes that the impasse over vaccines indicates a broken doctor-patient relationship.

"You're dealing with someone who is not trusting you and your advice," he said. "So, when will they trust your advice?"

 

So as long as we OBEY their "advice" without a shred of skepticism, we have a good relationship?  Gotcha.  What he describes sounds less like a "broken relationship" and more like a broken doctor ego...

 


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#15 of 65 Old 10-03-2011, 03:15 PM
 
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"I really believe that we should not abandon our patients because they have chosen not to be immunized but to make sure they have the information to fully understand the decision they are making."  Oh right, because a pro-vax ped is going to give parents unbiased information about vaccines, sure.. eyesroll.gif

 

Doctors who are turning away non-vax'ers IMO are doing non-vaxer's a favor by showing their true colors.  I would never bring my kids to a doctor who just tolerated my decisions; I couldn't trust someone like that to care well for my kids.  They need to support and understand my decision not to vax.  I realize I'm blessed to have a great ped, perhaps if ped's like this are scarce in certain area's I can see why this would be upsetting.  But I had several to choose from, so it's been my assumption that they're out there and always will be, you just may have to search a little harder.


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#16 of 65 Old 10-04-2011, 06:22 AM
 
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Good riddance. They do us all a favor when they demonstrate what little regard they have for the patient's right to informed consent. Anyone who gets "fired" (yeah right, as if you work for them and not vice versa) by such a physician has just dodged a bullet. It's win-win, really. thumb.gif

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#17 of 65 Old 10-04-2011, 06:54 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peainthepod View Post

Good riddance. They do us all a favor when they demonstrate what little regard they have for the patient's right to informed consent. Anyone who gets "fired" (yeah right, as if you work for them and not vice versa) by such a physician has just dodged a bullet. It's win-win, really. thumb.gif



 yeahthat.gif

 

Couldn't agree more!


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#18 of 65 Old 10-04-2011, 09:41 AM
 
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Given the most recent surveys about parent concerns surrounding vaccine safety ~ eventually, if peds keep firing non-vaxing or delay/select vax families ~ they are going to put themselves out of business or at least greatly reduce their income.


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Quote:
I would never bring my kids to a doctor who just tolerated my decisions

Well we got "fired" and I wish there was a practice nearby that would take my kids- I wouldn't care what they thought of me.

 

 

Quote:
eventually, if peds keep firing non-vaxing or delay/select vax families ~ they are going to put themselves out of business or at least greatly reduce their income.

Nah... 98% of parents vaccinate their kids to schedule in most parts of the country,

 


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#20 of 65 Old 10-04-2011, 05:57 PM
 
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What is it that you need from a ped that you would go with just anyone who would accept you?  Is it well-visits required for school or something?  Just curious. 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LisaSedai View Post

 

Well we got "fired" and I wish there was a practice nearby that would take my kids- I wouldn't care what they thought of me.

 

 

Nah... 98% of parents vaccinate their kids to schedule in most parts of the country,

 



 


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#21 of 65 Old 10-04-2011, 07:25 PM
 
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My oldest has encopresis (he seems to be getting over it thankfully) and that's something that the walk in urgent care places don't have much experience with. My baby developed an eye infection when she was about 2 months old and the urgent care said they don't take children under 2 years old. None of the peds doctor practices in my town will take non-vaxed patients so I had to look on the internet for one- found a practice 2 hours away (All God's Children LLC) that would take us. I'd like to have a doctor nearby that knows us in case of an emergency or if the kids had a serious cold or whatever.

 

It doesn't matter to me if the doctor shares my views on vaccination as long as s/he respects that I have to make decisions for my child based on what I believe.


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#22 of 65 Old 10-05-2011, 06:22 AM
 
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that makes sense.  Really awful that so many doctors think they're doing the right thing refusing patients.  Non-sense. 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LisaSedai View Post

My oldest has encopresis (he seems to be getting over it thankfully) and that's something that the walk in urgent care places don't have much experience with. My baby developed an eye infection when she was about 2 months old and the urgent care said they don't take children under 2 years old. None of the peds doctor practices in my town will take non-vaxed patients so I had to look on the internet for one- found a practice 2 hours away (All God's Children LLC) that would take us. I'd like to have a doctor nearby that knows us in case of an emergency or if the kids had a serious cold or whatever.

 

It doesn't matter to me if the doctor shares my views on vaccination as long as s/he respects that I have to make decisions for my child based on what I believe.



 


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#23 of 65 Old 10-19-2011, 12:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by emmy526 View Post

Now, pediatricians across the country — and particularly in vaccine-averse pockets such as northern Idaho, Boulder, Colo., Washington State and Marin County, Calif. — are stuck figuring out how to respond to patients whose parents obtain immunization exemptions on medical, philosophical or religious groundsAlthough the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) recommends doctors continue to treat — and educate — anti-vaccine families, some pediatricians are electing to “fire” patients who swear off vaccines.Read more: http://healthland.time.com/2011/08/04/should-pediatricians-fire-patients-whose-parents-dont-vaccinate-them/#ixzz1XV226dGk



I'd love to chat with a primary care physician who kicked out a patient because another doctor - say, a pediatric cardiologist - ordered a medical exemption.  Because, when I asked my son's pediatric cardiologist about the medical exemption, he assured me that virtually all his patients have them. It's routine for him to issue a medical exemption. I have a hard time believing that those sickest of kids - newborns in heart failure or lung failure - are being kicked out of the pediatricians' offices.  Medical exemptions are not "just another excuse," that parents come up with to get out of exemptions.  They are comparatively difficult to get, and don't originate from the parents anyway.  It takes a doctor to write a medical exemption.  So, it's absurd to think that the doctors are writing orders and then kicking out patients for then following the orders.  Logically, it has to be that another doctor, typically a specialist, is writing the order and then the primary doctor is presented with it. (PCPs generally being the ones doing the vaccinations.)  Who exactly are these doctors kicking out patients for following another doctor's orders? Hmmm?

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LisaSedai View Post

 

Nah... 98% of parents vaccinate their kids to schedule in most parts of the country,

 



1 in 10 children are not vaxed on schedule (or not at all) according to a recently released study...the more it is in the media the more I believe parents will start questioning more the safety (even if the stories in the media claim that vaccines are safe).

 

 

http://healthland.time.com/2011/10/03/more-than-1-in-10-parents-skip-or-delay-vaccines/


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#25 of 65 Old 11-11-2011, 12:11 PM
 
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I found out that Utica Park Clinic in Okemah, OK has personal feelings against Parents who don't vaccinate their children.  My wife took our Autistic child to the clinic and when Dr. Lindsey found out that we don't vaccinate our children, my wife got an ear full and the Dr even said it was her (dr) job to educate the uneducated.  The Dr. then informed my wife that in a survey of Oklahoma Doctors, 95% will not treat children who are not vaccinated.  My wife asked her if she is part of the 95% and the Doctor didn't answer.  We are not going there again.

 

It is sad that doctors are using their own personal feelings or opinions to treat patience but I am glad that the ones who are using personal feeling or opinions are voicing it.  Because I don't want a doctor to use their personal feelings or opinions to treat my family.

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#26 of 65 Old 11-11-2011, 01:16 PM
 
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Our docs don't treat unvaccinated or selectively vaccinated patients. I'm cool with that. They have the right to work (or not) with whomever they choose, and they're upfront about it so no one should be caught by surprise. It's not like they're discriminating based on something that isn't a choice (like race).
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#27 of 65 Old 11-20-2011, 12:18 PM
 
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We are one family that did get kicked out of our pediatrician of 8 years because of this. Through word of mouth, we have been able to find a new dr. who would love for us to vax, but also respects my decision as a parent to not vax.  She sees this as a medical rights issue, and knows that all children need care. We live in a fairly large metropolitan area with many "progressive" families. I only know of two or three practices that will accept un-vaxed or selectively vaxd families.  There are several that used to take folks like us, but have also recently changed their policies.

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#28 of 65 Old 01-10-2012, 02:31 PM
 
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I'm just curious here.  Are there doctors who refuse to treat patients who smoke, or who are morbidly obese?

 

No, I didn't think so.

 

But there are doctors who refuse to treat children whose parents didn't want to inject them with aluminum, mercury, and other chemicals?

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#29 of 65 Old 01-11-2012, 08:46 AM
 
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Actually, a doctor (at least in an independent practice) may well "fire" a patient for either of those issues, and others, if they believe the person is choosing to harm themselves and that their medical care cannot help because the patient is obstinately choosing to self-harm rather than go through a process of quitting/getting healthy.

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#30 of 65 Old 01-11-2012, 12:29 PM
 
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Well, here's something interesting:   http://www.physiciansnews.com/law/202.html

 

"Once a physician/patient relationship is established, the general rule is that a physician has a duty to continue to provide care to the patient until that relationship is terminated by the mutual consent of the physician and patient, the patient’s dismissal of the physician, the services of the physician are no longer needed or the physician properly withdraws from the physician/patient relationship. Various laws, including laws governing emergency treatment provided by hospitals and antidiscrimination laws, as well as certain ethical constraints, have significantly limited a physician’s ability to terminate the relationship..."

 

"The Americans With Disabilities Act of 1990 provides even broader protections for disabled individuals, including individuals who have a contagious disease. Title III of the ADA prohibits a place of public accommodation from denying an individual access to health care because of disability, unless the individual poses a direct threat or significant risk to the health and safety of others that cannot be eliminated by adequate precautions or reasonable modification of policies, practices or procedures. A disabled individual is one who has a physical impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities, a record of impairment, or is regarded as having an impairment..."

 

"Both the ethical opinions and legal precedents agree that a physician may not intentionally and unilaterally sever an existing relationship with any patient, unless the physician provides reasonable notice to the patient, in writing, and sufficient time to locate another physician. Failure of the physician to continue to provide care when the patient remains in need of care or failure to provide notice and an adequate opportunity for the patient to find another physician before the physician terminates the physician/patient relationship can be construed as the physician’s abandonment of the patient or dereliction of the physician’s duty if injury results. In addition to being exposed to liability for any damages that are caused by the abandonment or the breach of duty, the physician may be subject to disciplinary action under the state’s medical practice act. In Pennsylvania, a physician’s abandonment of a patient can result in disciplinary action against the physician and exposure to civil liability."

 

Surely, a child with a history of documented severe adverse reaction to a vaccine qualifies as disabled.  Yet, I have been reading that children with documented allergic reactions to vaccines have been dumped by their pediatricians for not continuing with vaccines.

 

Wouldn't that be illegal?

 
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