Need medical anti-vax expert for Family Court - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 23 Old 10-11-2011, 07:11 AM - Thread Starter
 
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My X has decided to make vaccinations an issue now we're divorced & he put the kids (10 & 4) in school. Friends remember him making a very educated case against vax when we were together. I think this is more a control issue because he knows how adamant I am against it. Plus, in recent discussion, he agreed with me illnesses were not an issue for them now they're out of the danger zone of infancy & toddlerhood, yet here we go to court.

 

My lawyer tells me I'm probably going to have to hire an expert & I can't find one in google searches. Court is in KY.

 

Any suggestions or help here?

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#2 of 23 Old 10-11-2011, 10:32 AM
 
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Dr Philip Incao

Dr Harold Buttram


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#3 of 23 Old 10-11-2011, 11:03 AM
 
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Here is a paper written by Dr.Rebecca Carley, a Court Qualified Expert in VIDS (Vaccine Induced Diseases) and Legal Abuse Syndrome.

 

http://www.drcarley.com/innoculations_wmd_dr_carley.pdf

 

Here is her website. She might be considered radical by some, but read her site and decide for yourself.  http://www.drcarley.com/


 
 
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#4 of 23 Old 10-11-2011, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks, y'all. I hope I can get something out of the ones you provided.

 

X's excuse that he's pushing for vax is that he travels internationally & might bring back a disease. I reminded him he travelled before & vax wasn't an issue. I'm hoping that alone may stop his pursuit of it.

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#5 of 23 Old 10-11-2011, 02:48 PM
 
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Well, considering that Rebecca Carley's license was revoked for practicing medicine while in the throes of an active delusional disorder, she might not be the type of expert you're looking for.

 

http://w3.health.state.ny.us/opmc/factions.nsf/58220a7f9eeaafab85256b180058c032/777c474f253ed8d085256d5f0053955e/$FILE/lc175786.pdf

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#6 of 23 Old 10-11-2011, 07:06 PM
 
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Like clockwork, the criticism is here, more dependable than Old Faithful.  I knew this would be an issue, which is why I included the part about her being considered a "radical". No, I'm not psychic!

 

I suggest everyone read the link in WildKingdom's post. If Rebecca were such a nut, then why was she qualified as an expert witness years after her license was revoked?

 

In a nutshell, Carley practiced medicine, believed that vaccines injured her son, and spoke out against vaccines and the evils of the medical establishment. There was also evidence that her husband sexually molested her son, and she fought that too. If I went through what she went through, I would have handled it much much worse. How would you deal with the situation?

 

Alas, the spotlight is on the messenger, as always. How dare anybody speak out against the medical mafia  establishment? So, maybe you can concentrate on the vaccine info that Dr.Carley brings forth, because it is valid.

 

Here's something to think about.......did you know several of our country's leaders have dressed up in Klan-like robes, danced around fires, chanted to a large stone owl statue, and participated in mock human sacrifices? How's that for crazy? Yep,  both Presidents Bush, Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan, Alan Greenspan, Richard M. Nixon, Jimmy Carter, Walter Cronkite, Colin Powell, and Henry Kissinger to name but a few. The meeting is held every July. It is purported that Obama and McCain visited Bohemian Grove in July of 2008.

 

Umm, these are our nation's leaders here, acting the fool. Look up Bohemian Grove, it's all true. Now tell me, why is Dr.Carley so crazy? Because she found out that our medical establishment is not the best way to practice medicine, and spoke out about it? Tried to protect her son, and was crucified for it? Lost her license, but still helps people to this very day with her alternative medicine practice? Has been an expert witness on vaccine damages, years after losing her license?

 

 

 


 
 
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#7 of 23 Old 10-11-2011, 09:11 PM
 
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beckybird, honestly it doesn't appear to be criticism of no-vax theory or anything like that. That police report and the psych report on that woman are scary. And seeing her website....I find it hard to disbelieve the psych reports after seeing how and what she writes.

 

You know, there are effective and not effective ways to get your message across. Or to be an activist. She's not one I'd want in my corner if I was in your shoes, and that's advice from someone who has no dog in the "to vax or not?" fight.


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#8 of 23 Old 10-11-2011, 11:55 PM
 
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I see her as a mother defending her son. If someone tried to get between me and my son........I won't say anything more.

 

Here's another example..Government wouldn't allow  the Navarro family to treat their son's cancer with a treatment that works. A treatment with a better success rate than traditional cancer "cut, poison, burn" methods. An example of harmful government intervention. The parents weren't allowed to provide the type of treatment they desired for their child. Don't watch this video if you don't want to cry. Because you will. http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/09/24/jim-navarro-featured-in-cut-poison-burn.aspx The Navarros handled the tyranny with class--not everyone flips out like Dr. Carley lol! We all handle situations differently. Me--I'd flip out. When it comes to my kids, I'm like a mother bear. How would you handle the situation? If you felt your child were in trouble, and you were prevented from helping him?

 

As for the psychiatrists who evaluated Dr.Carley, I would like to learn about them. I will try to investigate them--who are they, who chose them to do the evaluation, do they have any connections, etc. Are they biased in any way? If I find anything, I'll post it here.

 

Here's a video by Dr.Carley http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WoMps4Pmpo

 

 

 

 

 

 


 
 
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#9 of 23 Old 10-12-2011, 02:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeckyBird View Post

 

As for the psychiatrists who evaluated Dr.Carley, I would like to learn about them. I will try to investigate them--who are they, who chose them to do the evaluation, do they have any connections, etc. Are they biased in any way? If I find anything, I'll post it here.

 

Here's a video by Dr.Carley http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WoMps4Pmpo

 

 

 

 

 

 


If you read the linked report - there are bios on ALL of the doctors that testified (including testimony that this woman actually defecated herself in order to make the police officer clean it up).  Scary stuff.  I dont think its anti-vax criticism to link that report - I think its due diligence to help the OP in this thread.  Had I been aware of that report, in which she is not even mentally qualified to serve as a witness at her OWN hearings, then I would be remiss if I didn't point it out to someone seeking to use her as a witness in their own hearing.    It doesnt matter how terrible or how great we all think she is, the fact of the matter is that if the OP brought someone like this to her court hearing, this lady's biography would harm the OPs credibility rather than help it.

 

As a researcher myself, I would like to gently point out that 'good research' doesn't entail investigating other witnesses to find out what their bias is.  Everyone, pro or anti vax, has a bias based on their innate beliefs of wrong and right.  'Good research' entails investigating the arguments presented and whether or not they are factually based. 

 

 

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#10 of 23 Old 10-12-2011, 03:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeckyBird View Post

 We all handle situations differently. Me--I'd flip out. When it comes to my kids, I'm like a mother bear. How would you handle the situation? If you felt your child were in trouble, and you were prevented from helping him?

 



I sure as hell wouldn't shit myself or threaten people.  That's not going to help anyone. 

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#11 of 23 Old 10-12-2011, 04:08 AM
 
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It's Occam's Razor, BeckyBird.  What's more likely?  That the NY CPS, Nassau County Police Department, AMA, and Big Pharma have been colluding and conspiring against Rebecca Carley (a self-proclaimed "Ghandi with breasts")  since her residency,  or that she is unfortunately a very mentally ill woman?

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#12 of 23 Old 10-12-2011, 05:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by blueholly View Post

My X has decided to make vaccinations an issue now we're divorced & he put the kids (10 & 4) in school. Friends remember him making a very educated case against vax when we were together. I think this is more a control issue because he knows how adamant I am against it. Plus, in recent discussion, he agreed with me illnesses were not an issue for them now they're out of the danger zone of infancy & toddlerhood, yet here we go to court.

 

My lawyer tells me I'm probably going to have to hire an expert & I can't find one in google searches. Court is in KY.

 

Any suggestions or help here?



Do you have any documentation that your DH made an educated choice about not-vaxing when the children were younger?  (I'm thinking Dr records - did he attend Dr appointments?  Did he take the children without you to any Dr visits?)  Who are your friends that remember him making the choice?  Are they YOUR friends, or are they MUTUAL friends (were they mutual friends who became your friends with the divorce?  were they HIS friends that now think he's gone a little nuts?)?  If you can prove that he agreed not to vax the children, you might not really need an expert.

 

And, if you do end up in court, and he brings up the travel argument (which is dumb) do you have any documentation that proves he traveled before you divorced?  Itineraries (maybe in your email?), credit card records that reflect tickets being purchased, witnesses, did he travel for work - can you subpoena those records?  Get creative - cause if he agreed, then he agreed and he's SOL. 

 

Also be aware that this may not be a hill to die on (aka, lose custody over - I do not know what your custodial arrangement is), and be willing to compromise if it comes to that.  Work out a bare minimum schedule that you would be willing to agree to - which shots does he think are most important?  What ones does he think the children MUST have?  Then, if its between losing custody, and giving them a few vaxes, I would choose the vaxes (b/c if you lose custody he can do whatever he damn well pleases, and they will be vaxed anyway).  And, you can also work with him to choose a slow schedule to "catch up" the kids on their vaccines right now - the court may not do that if you end up in trial.

 

Also, be aware that b/c he is their father, he can pretty much do what he pleases.  He can take them to the Dr., he can get them vaxed (even if you have sole legal custody - no Dr. is going to ask for proof that he has custody, he's their dad), and you may not be able to stop it.  It sucks, I know that, and its not fair (I'm in my own custody battle right now - its pure hell), but you really need to decide if this is worth going to court over - b/c all it takes is judge crazy, and then you could lose custody (you might not - but it is possible).

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#13 of 23 Old 10-12-2011, 06:46 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I gave him primary custody (and, please, I don't want to explain that) but the divorce decree stipulates medical decisions are joint. So he cannot get them vaxed without my consent.

 

I do have someone who is my friend who has agreed to appear in court on my behalf to document how he was helping her with her new baby, they were talking about doctors and he tried convincing her NOT to vax. As she said,"He was very educated about it." (He maintains that he went along with non-vax and homeschooling because he was afraid of me. big eye roll  I suppose if he could take back the homebirthing, he'd try that too)

 

All his international travel has been through his work so that will be easy to subpoena. My daughter has gone to Mexico twice & vax weren't an issue either.

 

I am thinking because I pointed out there was travel before and vax weren't an issue for him that he is going to back down from it. His lawyer may have told him he may have trouble with pursuing it too.

 

Here's hoping.

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#14 of 23 Old 10-12-2011, 10:45 AM
 
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"'good research' doesn't entail investigating other witnesses to find out what their bias is"

 

This is your opinion, and I disagree! If you wanted to use Carley as an expert witness, you would want to learn about her, right?  So, this is why I would like to know more about the psychiatrists who examined her. If they were biased in any way that might have influenced the diagnosis, I would find it most interesting.  I haven't had a chance to do this yet ....only had enough time to type this quick post. Back later.

 


 
 
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#15 of 23 Old 10-12-2011, 12:50 PM
 
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She was examined by Dr. Zev Labins, the contents of which can be read here

 

http://w3.health.state.ny.us/opmc/factions.nsf/58220a7f9eeaafab85256b180058c032/777c474f253ed8d085256d5f0053955e?OpenDocument



 

 

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#16 of 23 Old 10-12-2011, 01:42 PM
 
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BeckyBird, the question here is not so much whether Dr. Carley unfortunately suffers from a severe mental illness in the form of delusions which would make her a very unreliable expert (though it's pretty clear that that is the case), but would presenting her as one help the OP's case or hurt it?  Just how do you think the judge will react to hearing wild conspiracy theories and when the OP's ex's lawyer presents the evidence of the "expert" having lost her medical license and the reasons for the loss?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeckyBird View Post

 

I suggest everyone read the link in WildKingdom's post. If Rebecca were such a nut, then why was she qualified as an expert witness years after her license was revoked?

 

 


Simple answer - because in some places, all it takes to "qualify" as an expert witness is to be hired by someone who wants your testimony.

 

I would be very interested to know how the trials in which Dr. Carly was an expert witness turned out.  Was she persuasive to the judge and jury?  Did her involvement result in the outcome that the people hiring her hoped for?

 

Honestly - I think that showing up in court with Dr. Carly as an expert witness might be a great way to get a judge to award medical, as well as physical, custody to her ex.

 

And I don't really understand why lawyers are involved in this.  I strongly suspect that the OP's ex could take the kids to a pediatrician, present the list of required vaxes for school and daycare, and have the kids vaccinated for anything and everything without anyone even suggesting that he consult the OP.  The fact that he hasn't done so supports OP's theory that this may be a control issue.  Certainly it supports the argument that, whatever the XH's motives are, they are not actually about the chldren's health - if that was so, he wouldn't be messing around this way.

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#18 of 23 Old 10-12-2011, 06:10 PM
 
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Blueholly, I apologize for hijacking your thread. I didn't mean for this to happen!

 

 In my first post, I linked to the paper by Dr.Carley. Nowhere did I say she should be used as a witness in person.  Her paper can be used as a reason why you don't want to vaccinate, if you needed reasons. I like her paper.

Now,  I am aware Dr.Carley seems a little crazy....radical, as I said in my first post. I made it clear from the beginning that she was radical, which is why I also linked to her home site. So the OP could find out for herself.

 

Ok, now that we've gotten the disclaimers out of the way lol.... I still sympathize with Dr.Carley. She thought her son was injured by vaccines and molested by her husband. She lost control, and if I were in her position, I probably would have too.

 

Ok, now for her delusions:

This topic belongs in a thread all by itself, so I will keep it as short as possible. The medical establishment and US government is riddled with corruption. I'm sorry, but it is. Also, please do your own research into the past and present Satanists. Even if you don't believe in God or Satan, they do, and they sure as heck worship. If you're interested in learning more, you can do some basic Satanism 101 searches on the subject. Albert Pike,  Alice Bailey and Lucius Trust, or Bohemian Grove is are very basic starting points. Scratch your head, and ask yourself....Hmm, why are our presidents & leaders doing this Satanic ritual at Bohemian Grove? Gee whiz, this sounds crazy!  It makes Dr.Carley's claims seem pale by comparison. Which is why I tend to believe her. She's merely calling them evil.....they are the ones actually participating in the occult rituals! I would think any normal person should have a problem with that.

 

 

I won't write any more on your thread, Blueholly, because it would only cause more arguing. I'm sorry, again.

Good luck with your court case!


 
 
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#19 of 23 Old 10-13-2011, 08:13 AM - Thread Starter
 
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And I don't really understand why lawyers are involved in this.  I strongly suspect that the OP's ex could take the kids to a pediatrician, present the list of required vaxes for school and daycare, and have the kids vaccinated for anything and everything without anyone even suggesting that he consult the OP.  The fact that he hasn't done so supports OP's theory that this may be a control issue.  Certainly it supports the argument that, whatever the XH's motives are, they are not actually about the chldren's health - if that was so, he wouldn't be messing around this way.


Just reading that last paragraph, MeepyCat, is such a clear insight to this situation. Everything he's been doing has been to exert some kind of control and, in the process, has used the children repeatedly to do so.

 

BeckyBird, no worries. I've been in hijacked threads and actually learn something, whether I agree with it or not. I printed out Carley's paper to read thoroughly, although I consider myself pretty educated about the vax issue. 
 

 

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Knowingly submitting the opinion of someone who has been declared mentally unstable and unfit to practice medicine borders on intellectual dishonesty, no? I doubt it would sway the court in the OP's favor.

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#21 of 23 Old 10-14-2011, 04:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueholly View Post

I gave him primary custody (and, please, I don't want to explain that) but the divorce decree stipulates medical decisions are joint. So he cannot get them vaxed without my consent.

 

I do have someone who is my friend who has agreed to appear in court on my behalf to document how he was helping her with her new baby, they were talking about doctors and he tried convincing her NOT to vax. As she said,"He was very educated about it." (He maintains that he went along with non-vax and homeschooling because he was afraid of me. big eye roll  I suppose if he could take back the homebirthing, he'd try that too)

 

All his international travel has been through his work so that will be easy to subpoena. My daughter has gone to Mexico twice & vax weren't an issue either.

 

I am thinking because I pointed out there was travel before and vax weren't an issue for him that he is going to back down from it. His lawyer may have told him he may have trouble with pursuing it too.

 

Here's hoping.


So, your problem is going to be that with him having physical custody, if you end up in a trial, the judge is highly likely to not decide on the Vax issue and just give him sole legal custody.  Which means he will be able to do what he wants.  His attorney is more likely to advise him of that, and he likely will pursue it.   Knowing that now, I would say to negotiate a slow catch up schedule, agree on it, and keep your joint legal - cause if you go to trial there is a high likelihood of you losing joint legal and him ending up with sole.  The reason for this, is that when parents cannot agree on important decisions, and end up litigating over them, its bad for the children (especially once they are old enough to pick up on whats going on - even when the parents are very careful of what they say to the children, older kids will pick up on the fact that there is ongoing litigation).

 

I'm sorry, family court issues are rarely fair, and rarely make sense.

 

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#22 of 23 Old 10-14-2011, 11:37 AM
 
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I think Super Single Mama is right here.

 

Another factor that you might want to consider in this:  court is expensive.  Every time you talk to the lawyer, they bill you.  Every time he says he wants A and you say you want B and your lawyers start negotiating, it costs you money.  If he has more resources than you, he may be working on the theory that if he just continues to submit demands through your lawyer, he can eventually price you out of the custody agreement.

 

I would hope that's not what's going on, because it's awful, but divorce and custody issues can get really ugly.

 

Figure out the issues you can win on, and save your money to take a stand on them.

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#23 of 23 Old 01-10-2012, 02:25 PM
 
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While I think that Dr. Carley is probably as sane as the rest of us, and spot-on in her assessment of vaccines, I think that the pharmaceutical industry used her divorce to set her up as the fall guy, and purposely destroyed her reputation--which means she would NOT be the expert witness you would want, no matter how "right" she is.  It's not about having an expert witness who is "right." It's about having an expert witness who will convince the judge, and for that, you need someone with an absolutely unimpeachible reputation.

 

(I think Andrew Wakefield has always been absolutely correct, too, but I wouldn't hire him as an expert witness, either.)

 

If you have a history with a pediatrician who has allowed you to delay vaccines, that pediatrician should be able to supply a signed statement that you are delaying vaccines with his/her approval.  That makes your decision one that is doctor-approved--which means you're not a crazy, granola-headed hippie-dippie mother, but an intelligent one who worked with the pediatrician to come to this decision.

 

How about sending Dr. Sears an email and asking for his advice? You could also contact Barbara Loe Fisher at nvic.org.

 

 

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