Are getting no vaccines right for us? - Page 4 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#91 of 109 Old 01-27-2012, 03:32 PM
 
purslaine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 6,771
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post

 

14 babies with a fatal vaccine reaction out of 7500 is well in excess of the kind of vaccine reaction rate that would be expected with the vaccines currently in use (I divided the 15,000 baby study group in half to just look at the control group that these infants were part of, but 14 out of 15,000 would still be huge).  I think it would be interesting to know what these infants died of.  And like any other entity, GSK should face serious penalties for any violations of ethical standards.  From the information available at this time, however, it seems unlikely that the deaths were caused by the vaccine. 



how many died in the other group?

 

If it was nowhere near 14 (nowhere near how many kids would die naturally during that period) then something is off.  It does not automatically mean it was the vaccine, but it might have been, and I hope further investigations are going on to figure out what went wrong.

purslaine is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#92 of 109 Old 01-27-2012, 04:03 PM
 
Taximom5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,314
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post



Furthermore, since they illegally and unethically enrolled infants in the study, how can we trust that they are being honest that the babies who died WEREN'T given the trial vaccine?  Because lying would be wrong?



My own opinion is that it doesn't matter whether they gave the babies the trial vaccine or the placebo--either way, they gave vaccines that have a much higher chance of causing severe adverse effects than they let on.

 

We know darn well that most of the time, they don't let well-educated, high-income parents know what the REAL risks are in the US.  It's a given that they are not going to let low-income, illiterate parents that there are ANY risks; pharmaceutical companies standard MO in drug trials is to make the participant or the minor participant's parent feel lucky that the big-city, smart doctors are giving free medicine.

Taximom5 is online now  
#93 of 109 Old 01-27-2012, 04:13 PM
 
Taximom5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,314
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post

Technically, denying a child a vaccine would also be unethical for a clinical trial.  

You're making one HECK of an assumption:  that the vaccine is necessary.  Not something that may be good, or may help avoid disease, but NECESSARY.  

 

Obviously, many argue that vaccines are unnecessary, but I think what's more relevant is that the necessity of most recent vaccines is debatable.  There are valid arguments that it's not necessarily the disease that needs to be avoided, but complications from that disease, and that other factors are more important in avoiding both complications and spread of disease than vaccinations (such as sanitation, clean water, proper nutrition, etc).

 

It's rather similar to saying, "denying someone cold medication would be unethical for a clinical trial of a new cold medication."  

 

You're also assuming that the risks are only what the vaccine manufacturers tell us (redness and sorenes at injection site, mild fever, irritability).  Given the history of the corruption and ethical misconduct amongst pharmaceutical companies, it is naive at best to believe what the vaccine manufacturers tell us.

 

 

Taximom5 is online now  
#94 of 109 Old 01-27-2012, 06:12 PM
Banned
 
stik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,860
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I realize you disagree with vaccines, but that is how researchers typically see the issue of testing new stuff when there is old stuff available to treat or prevent the condition under study.  The researchers conducting these trials DO believe the vaccine is necessary, and we're talking about infants in Argentina here, who have been described as possibly having parents who are illiterate, which implies poverty.  These are probably not parents who can easily deal with a sick baby, or get the child medical attention quickly, which increases the risks of measles.  Sanitation and good nutrition are not necessarily given.  

 

You wouldn't want them to test against a placebo only to settle on a vaccine that is less safe and effective than what we've currently got.  It makes sense to compare.

 

I don't want to let them off the hook for anything unethical they have done, and apparently they did something, and have been fined a pathetically small amount.  But it does actually make sense to test a new vaccine against the old one.

 

 

 

 

stik is offline  
#95 of 109 Old 01-27-2012, 09:41 PM
 
Taximom5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,314
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post

I realize you disagree with vaccines, but that is how researchers typically see the issue of testing new stuff when there is old stuff available to treat or prevent the condition under study.  The researchers conducting these trials DO believe the vaccine is necessary, and we're talking about infants in Argentina here, who have been described as possibly having parents who are illiterate, which implies poverty.  These are probably not parents who can easily deal with a sick baby, or get the child medical attention quickly, which increases the risks of measles.  Sanitation and good nutrition are not necessarily given.  

 

You wouldn't want them to test against a placebo only to settle on a vaccine that is less safe and effective than what we've currently got.  It makes sense to compare.

 

I don't want to let them off the hook for anything unethical they have done, and apparently they did something, and have been fined a pathetically small amount.  But it does actually make sense to test a new vaccine against the old one.

 

 

 

 


Whether or not I agree with vaccines is irrelevant, and you shouldn't be putting words in my mouth, anyway (a mistake you have made more than once on this forum).  I have never said that "I disagree with vaccines."

 

The researchers conducting this trial are not comparing it to a vaccine previously in use in Argentina.  Here is the pediatric vaccine schedule in Argentina: http://www.faerac.org.ar/vacunas_eng.php.  Synflorix is not a measles vaccine, so I don't know why you write about the risk of measles, unless you are trying to confuse the issue.

 

It appears to be slated to replace Prevnar in the US.  So if they were comparing it to Prevnar, it is worth noting the VAERS statistics on Prevnar:

 

Data from the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) - which include "coincidental" events as well as those truly caused by vaccines - reveal a total of 28,317 adverse reactions to the Prevnar since the PCV vaccine was approved in 2000. These adverse reactions included:

  • 558 deaths
  • 555 life threatening conditions
  • 238 permanent disabilities
  • 2,584 hospitalisations
  • 101 prolonged hospitalisations
  • 8,166 emergency room cases and
  • 16,155 "not serious".
  •  

A little research reveals some major problems with Prevnar: http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/articles/whistleblower/wyeth-00187.html

http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/02/29/wyeth-dogged-by-prevnar-manufacturing-lawsuits/

 

According to a former Wyeth employee, Prevnar is processed with cyanide, leading one to wonder if an improperly made batch or vial may have poisoned the infants in Argentina.

 

Taximom5 is online now  
#96 of 109 Old 01-28-2012, 05:47 AM
Banned
 
stik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,860
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Wires crossed, wrong disease.  Nonetheless, the new vax should be tested against the old vax so we know it's safer and works better.  

stik is offline  
#97 of 109 Old 01-28-2012, 06:30 AM
 
Taximom5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,314
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)

If the old vax caused deaths, permanent disabilities, hospitalizations, life-threatening conditions, if there are documented safety issues with production, and if the manufacturer has demonstrated a clear pattern of disregard for the human suffering caused by its products, it should no longer be used in testing or in the recommended vaccine schedule.

 

All of the above "ifs," of course, are true.

 

Remember, vaccine manufacturers have blanket liability protection in the US for ALL vaccines.  They cannot be sued in the US even if the vaccine is known to be defective, because the Supreme Court has ruled that vaccines are "unavoidably unsafe."  As Supreme Court Justice Sotomayor wrote in her dissenting opinion:

 

"The majority's decision leaves a regulatory vacuum in which no one - neither the FDA nor any other federal agency, nor state and federal juries - ensures that vaccine manufacturers adequately take account of scientific and technological advancements.... The vaccine market will often have little or no incentive to improve the designs of vaccines that are already generating significant profit margins." (bolding mine)

 

With more and more parents electing to delay or refuse Prevnar because of safety issues, as US parents realize that they will be completely on their own if their child does have a severe reaction, it is clear from the Argentina trials that Wyeth is looking to boost those profit margins rather than improve safety.

 

 


 

Taximom5 is online now  
#98 of 109 Old 01-28-2012, 06:35 AM
Banned
 
stik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,860
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

The trial in Argentina is being conducted by GSK. Are we talking about the same trial?

stik is offline  
#99 of 109 Old 01-28-2012, 06:44 AM
Banned
 
stik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,860
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

OK - caught up on the USA Today article.  Wyeth makes Prevnar.  GSK makes Synflorix.  Pneumonia kills babies, though it is not necessarily the cause of death in the 14 infants who died in this trial.  

 

I agree with Sotamayor's concerns.  At least in this case, market competition seems like it could be part of the answer.  

stik is offline  
#100 of 109 Old 01-28-2012, 11:50 AM
 
vforba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I think another part of the problem, is that they take the same standard procedures treating any of these diseases. Most people have now idea how important a good diet is, how important the correct vitamins are. Have any of you seen how much a difference vitamin C makes? There was a video on Youtube about a guy in Australia who got the Swine flu, was literally on deaths door, on life support and they said they were going to turn him off. His wife happened to find some info about how essential Vit C is for fighting the flu. She finally got the drs to give him Vit C via IV and literally within days this guy is off the ventilator, is starting to talk etc.. Well then the drs say, we can't give this too him anymore. It supposedly only the fact that they rolled him over that caused his almost immediate recovery. Which is garbage. The wife then had to take the hospital to court to get them to give him the Vit C again, but they would only do so in very low doses. His recovery was slow, but he did recover and once he was able to take liquids she would come in and give him a liquid vit C supplement on her own and they he really started to improve.

So while we all are being told that they can't help these people, that they are going to dye, have we really exhausted all our resources and is there a better way. Not just drugs but natural ways to heal even faster. I know their is. I've seen it with my own eyes. I've seen how good colloidal silver works, Even though most would have you believe it's toxic poison.

vforba is offline  
#101 of 109 Old 01-28-2012, 12:35 PM
Banned
 
stik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,860
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Well, it does cause argyria.  

stik is offline  
#102 of 109 Old 01-28-2012, 02:50 PM
 
beckybird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: The Shattered Paradigm
Posts: 2,033
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 75 Post(s)

It can cause argyria if you make it incorrectly.


 
 
 "Medical propaganda ops are, in the long run, the most dangerous. They appear to be neutral. They wave no political banners. They claim to be science. For these reasons, they can accomplish the goals of overt fascism without arousing suspicion.” — Jon Rappoport
 
 
 
beckybird is online now  
#103 of 109 Old 01-28-2012, 02:54 PM
 
Taximom5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,314
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post

Well, it does cause argyria.  



That's like saying "food does cause obesity."

Taximom5 is online now  
#104 of 109 Old 01-28-2012, 05:01 PM
 
Katie8681's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Northern Cali
Posts: 674
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)

If you eat too much food and become obese, you can go on a diet and lose it. Argyria is forever.


At home amongst the redwoods treehugger.gif with my husband and my son, born 7/5/11 familybed1.gif  Instant CNM, just add caffix.gif !

Katie8681 is offline  
#105 of 109 Old 01-28-2012, 05:02 PM
 
purslaine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 6,771
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie8681 View Post

If you eat too much food and become obese, you can go on a diet and lose it. Argyria is forever.



Ha!  Tell that to my fat cells….

 

Off to look up argyria...

 

 

purslaine is offline  
#106 of 109 Old 01-28-2012, 05:45 PM
 
beckybird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: The Shattered Paradigm
Posts: 2,033
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 75 Post(s)

The "Blue Man" admitted he made his silver incorrectly.....when properly made, it will not cause argyria. The Blue Man (Paul Karason) also said he would continue to use colloidal silver, despite the fact it turned him blue!

 


 
 
 "Medical propaganda ops are, in the long run, the most dangerous. They appear to be neutral. They wave no political banners. They claim to be science. For these reasons, they can accomplish the goals of overt fascism without arousing suspicion.” — Jon Rappoport
 
 
 
beckybird is online now  
#107 of 109 Old 02-07-2012, 06:39 PM
 
kayak32's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Golden CO
Posts: 12
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by peds101 View Post

Look, I'm not trying to be a *itch on here. I'm not putting any of this on here is a condescending tone. I do discuss risks of vaccines. There is a federal law that mandates a VIS form be provided with all vaccinations. They list the common to rare side effects, including seizures. However, have you actually looked at all those "Deaths" on the VAERS reporting. You are not required to provide any actual information or evidence. There is a lot of third or fourth hand reporting. I'm not exactly sure how car accident deaths are due to a vaccine. Atrial rupture after a TV falling on a child is not likely due to the vaccine. I am not saying this is a bad system. I do think everything should be reported. Afterall, we don't always put leeches on people or drill holes in their head anymore. Medicine changes.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landau%E2%80%93Kleffner_syndrome

No, I have not personally examined Jenny McCarthy's child, but I have seen her later interviews after his seizure disorder is being treated.

There are also seizures in children who haven't been vaccinated.

 

Kathy, I don't know what to tell you. I'm not a liar. I can not obviously give out names due to HIPPA ,and well, I'm not going to due to patient confidentiality. I think we will see more of these diseases over the next few years. There are a lot of people who are afraid of vaccinating their children. When Michele Bachmann says things like, I know a Mom who told me HPV vaccine gave her child MR, how can you not be afraid. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/michele-bachmanns-hpv-claims-just-latest-in-gardasil-debate/2011/09/14/gIQA9FjESK_blog.html. Nevermind later she retracts by pointing out she's not a Doctor and you should really consult and discuss with your physician.

 

To clairify, I've seen 1 death due to Pertussis in the past 5 years. I've had 2 patients in the past 2 years test positive for Pertussis that didn't die. 1 acutally had the full DTAP series except for his 4 yr old booster. I've also had a patient with Hemophagocytic Lymphohystiocytosis which is Incidence is reported to be 1.2 cases per million persons per year. http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/986458-overview#a0199. I live in a midwest state, hardly exotic. I also have never seen a death that was thought to be vaccine related. I'm thankful for that. It's bad enough to see the ones that happen for other preventable reasons.



For me my child is not vax at all my doc was shocked when I mentioned it expecting him to want to while I did not.   Then at the age of 18 months my DD had a direct exposure to pertussis as did two others from our church.   The other 2 where both vaccinated however my daughter was the only one who did not come down with pertussis.  When my doc and I discussed it his response was let me guess they were both vaccinated.  He was not at all surprised that my DD was the only one who did not get sick.   There are so many variants of pertussis that the vax does not do anything for that it is a shot in the dark as to whether there would be protection even if vaccinated.  

 

 

kayak32 is offline  
#108 of 109 Old 02-08-2012, 02:59 PM
 
vforba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

There is a genetic issue that many people don't know about or don't want to admit when it comes to vaccines. There is so much so much junk and dangerous stuff in them. There is a very good possibility that these vaccines are mutating dna and causing more defects. Because that's why when you see those who have not received vaccines with similar issues it could be something inherited from the parents. It may not cause the same issue in the parents, but because their dna has been damaged their offspring now has this damaged dna. Possibly causing all of these new issues, not only in the vaxxed kids but also in the non-vaxxed. And the more extreme issues are those that have multiplied problems.

vicky

vforba is offline  
#109 of 109 Old 02-08-2012, 04:57 PM
 
beckybird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: The Shattered Paradigm
Posts: 2,033
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 75 Post(s)

Nailed it, Vforba! This bothers me too, and this is why there needs to be more research on vaccines!!


 
 
 "Medical propaganda ops are, in the long run, the most dangerous. They appear to be neutral. They wave no political banners. They claim to be science. For these reasons, they can accomplish the goals of overt fascism without arousing suspicion.” — Jon Rappoport
 
 
 
beckybird is online now  
Reply

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off