Scientists Say to Delay Breastfeeding to 'Improve' Vaccine Potency - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 55 Old 01-22-2012, 03:06 PM
 
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Katie8681 - And that's exactly why breast milk is so beneficial. Just one drop contains about one million white blood cells, germ eaters. On top of it IgA coats the the lining of babies' intestines, preventing germs from attacking.

 

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Hm, it has not been my experience that breast milk is the only thing that goes into a breastfed baby's mouth. My baby puts his fingers, everybody else's fingers, anything and everything he finds on the floor, etc., straight into his mouth. I think that is pretty typical of babies. Depending on a baby's environment, I can see how even an EBF kid could easily be exposed to rotavirus.

 

Look, nobody is trying to get mothers to stop breastfeeding, at least through this line of research. Let's put the torches and pitchforks away.



 


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#32 of 55 Old 01-22-2012, 04:30 PM
 
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And yet, EBF babies DO get sick. Yes, they get sick less often than babies who are not exclusively breastfed, and/or not breastfed at all, especially in developing countries. That does not mean they don't get sick and die of diarrhea caused by rotavirus. If you do a quick google scholar search on rotavirus and breastfeeding, the research is conflicting about how much protection bf'ing provides against that particular illness. Second, the kind of immunity breastfeeding supplies is not long-lasting. It doesn't cause the body to develop memory T-and B-cells. The vaccine does, so it goes on protecting the child through the 0-5 years when people are most vulnerable to rotavirus.  


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#33 of 55 Old 01-22-2012, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Never said they don't. 
 

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And yet, EBF babies DO get sick. Yes, they get sick less often than babies who are not exclusively breastfed, and/or not breastfed at all, especially in developing countries. That does not mean they don't get sick and die of diarrhea caused by rotavirus. If you do a quick google scholar search on rotavirus and breastfeeding, the research is conflicting about how much protection bf'ing provides against that particular illness. Second, the kind of immunity breastfeeding supplies is not long-lasting. It doesn't cause the body to develop memory T-and B-cells. The vaccine does, so it goes on protecting the child through the 0-5 years when people are most vulnerable to rotavirus.  

 

 

 

 

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#34 of 55 Old 01-23-2012, 03:56 AM
 
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"Heres a good idea:  why not do a study of only USA infants, rather than including/comparing to a  3rd world country, who's living conditions dont even come close to ours?" 

 

Because the issue they're looking at is how to improve the vaccine efficacy in infants in 3rd world countries.


then why did they use American moms and compare us with 3rd world countries?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20442687

 

 

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Breast milk samples were collected from mothers who were breast-feeding infants 4 to 29 weeks of age (ie, vaccine eligible age) in India (N = 40), Vietnam (N = 77), South Korea (N = 34), and the United States (N = 51). We examined breast milk for rotavirus-specific IgA and neutralizing activity against 3 rotavirus vaccine strains-RV1, RV5 G1, and 116E using enzyme immunoassays. The inhibitory effect of breast milk on RV1 was further examined by a plaque reduction assay.

 

 

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#35 of 55 Old 01-23-2012, 03:57 AM
 
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Look, nobody is trying to get mothers to stop breastfeeding, at least through this line of research. Let's put the torches and pitchforks away.

oh really??
 

 

 

 

http://www.breastfeeding.com/advocacy/advocacy_doctors_get_commissions.html

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Pakistani Doctors get Commission for recommending Formula

 

 

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 The vaccine does, so it goes on protecting the child through the 0-5 years when people are most vulnerable to rotavirus.  


You are assuming the vaccine works as purported...that is not always the case. 

 

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But breastfed babies are far less likely to GET rotavirus in the first place, which is spread via contaminated feces.  And the best way to rehydrate an infant is with breast milk. 

 

I fear this is simply a marketing ploy of the pharmaceutical/formula industry.  Formula has no place in third-world countries anyway, where it is likely to be mixed with tainted water (likely the primary source of rotavirus in the first place) and improperly watered down to last longer.


I think we forget that breastfeeding is harder in 3rd world countries. The conditions are different. There is no running water and hydration is in a well or a creek one mile away. Go and carry in a couple of canisters, easy enough! Food is scarce, great nutrition is hard to get. (I was watching a documentary recently about the research on nutrition during pregnancy - the clinic gave out food and supplements to pregnant women and it had to be consumed right there, or the women would take it home to give to kids and never eat any of it.) Working in the fields, "homesteading" (in pre-industrial sense, like cutting crops with a small scythe and grinding grain with stones), taking care of the rest of the family and kids, all take a toll. It's not just sitting there with a perfectly stocked fridge and a Boppy pillow.

 

So if breastfeeding ends too soon or the supply is low, those babies need all the protection they can get from food borne diseases.

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Originally Posted by Katie8681 View Post

And yet, EBF babies DO get sick. Yes, they get sick less often than babies who are not exclusively breastfed, and/or not breastfed at all, especially in developing countries. That does not mean they don't get sick and die of diarrhea caused by rotavirus. If you do a quick google scholar search on rotavirus and breastfeeding, the research is conflicting about how much protection bf'ing provides against that particular illness. Second, the kind of immunity breastfeeding supplies is not long-lasting. It doesn't cause the body to develop memory T-and B-cells. The vaccine does, so it goes on protecting the child through the 0-5 years when people are most vulnerable to rotavirus.  

 

Trying to use vaccines to prevent third world children from dying is just a bandaid solution; the kids aren't dying because they have poor access to vaccines, they're dying because they have poor access to good food, clean water, and basic healthcare (such as rehydration salts), leaving them vulnerable to things that they would otherwise be able to handle.  Rotavirus is just one of many, many things that they are vulnerable to, and breatmilk provides some protection against most of them, including malnutrition, while the vaccines only protect against a few very specific things.  So I agree with the other posters who are concerned that this study could do more damage than good, as it could result in lower breasfeeding rates, thereby undermining any possible benefits from the vaccine.

 

 

 


 

 

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http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5512a1.htm

 

 

 

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Prevention of Rotavirus Gastroenteritis Among Infants and Children

 

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I think we forget that breastfeeding is harder in 3rd world countries. The conditions are different. There is no running water and hydration is in a well or a creek one mile away. Go and carry in a couple of canisters, easy enough! Food is scarce, great nutrition is hard to get. (I was watching a documentary recently about the research on nutrition during pregnancy - the clinic gave out food and supplements to pregnant women and it had to be consumed right there, or the women would take it home to give to kids and never eat any of it.) Working in the fields, "homesteading" (in pre-industrial sense, like cutting crops with a small scythe and grinding grain with stones), taking care of the rest of the family and kids, all take a toll. It's not just sitting there with a perfectly stocked fridge and a Boppy pillow.

 

So if breastfeeding ends too soon or the supply is low, those babies need all the protection they can get from food borne diseases.



 

So what water, exactly, do you think they would be using to mix formula?  Do you think these women would have enough money to mix the formula exactly as instructed, or might they water it down (with more tainted water, of course) to make it last longer?  Or do you think it would be affordable and practical for them to buy (and carry for miles, without a car) pre-mixed formula?

 

You do know, don't you, that, just like in the US, formula companies give free samples to new mums?  And that they give just enough to make sure that lactation is hindered, thereby creating a "need" for the formula?

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#41 of 55 Old 01-23-2012, 06:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by emmy526 View Post

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5512a1.htm

 

 

 

 



 

From www.ageofautism.com: "Paul Offit, co-inventor of Merck’s Rotateq® vaccine, sat on the regulatory body that held the authority to create the market for the rotavirus vaccine category, participated in committee deliberations that bore directly on the commercial value of that category and voted in favor of measures that expanded the resulting market; all this while a vaccine formulation protected by his patented invention in the same category was proceeding through clinical trials."

 

AoA estimates that Offit has earned upwards of $10 million from Rotateq.

******************************

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-03-22/health/rotavirus.vaccine_1_rotavirus-vaccine-rotarix-glaxosmithkline?_s=PM:HEALTH

 

Federal health authorities recommended Monday that doctors suspend using Rotarix, one of two vaccines licensed in the United States against rotavirus, saying the vaccine is contaminated with material from a pig virus.

"There is no evidence at this time that this material poses a safety risk," Food and Drug Administration Commissioner Dr. Margaret Hamburg told reporters in a conference call.

Rotarix, made by GlaxoSmithKline, was approved by the FDA in 2008. The contaminant material is DNA from porcine circovirus 1, a virus from pigs that is not known to cause disease in humans or animals, Hamburg said.

******************

http://vaccinenewsdaily.com/fda/212970-pig-virus-dna-found-in-mercks-rotateq-vaccine/

Pig virus DNA found in Merck’s Rotateq vaccine

 

Rotavirus_vaccine.jpg

Rotateq vaccine

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration reported May 6 that fragments of two types of pig viruses were found in Merck & Co.’s Rotateq vaccine.

One virus is the same one found in GlaxoSmithKline PLC’s Rotarix vaccine in March. The FDA, at the time, recommended doctors stop using that vaccine and use Rotateq instead, even though the agency said it didn’t think the virus posed any safety risks to humans.

Both vaccines are designed to protect infants from a gastrointestinal illness caused by rotavirus and have been given to millions of babies since Merck’s Rotateq vaccine was approved for use in the U.S. in 2006.

Officials said tests identified fragments of DNA from PCV1 and from a related porcine circovirus, PCV2, in its Rotateq vaccine. PCV1 and PCV2 are common in pigs. Neither PCV1 nor PCV2 are known to cause illness in humans. However, FDA officials said PCV2 may cause illness in pigs.

*******************

So Offit's vaccine is tainted with TWO kinds of pig viruses, including one found in a competing brand, which was pulled because of the contamination.  Yet official word is that Offit's vaccine is safe (and "necessary").  And Offit, inventor of Rotateq, is a member of ACIP, the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, and voted to withdraw both RotaShield and Rotarix.

 

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#42 of 55 Old 01-23-2012, 07:06 AM
 
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You know, the rotavirus vax was the nail in the coffin for me to delay/stop vax for my daughter.  I had researched a lot before her birth, but started on a pretty normal schedule.  When it was time for her 1st dose of rotavirus was about the same time the pig virus issue started being talked about in the media... so she didnt receive it and hasnt received anything since she was 6 months.

 

I have the Dr. Sear´s book and he lists the ingredients as follows:

 

RotaTeq (merck)

 

5 virus strains live and whole, sucrose, sodium citrate, phosphate, hydroxide, polysorbate 80, cell culture media (gel or liquid viruses sit in as they grow, specific ingredients are detailed), traces of fetal cow blood.

 

Rotarix (GSK)

 

Single virus strain live and whole, sucrose, dextran, sorbitol, amino acids, Dulbecco´s Modified Eagle Medium (solution virus is kept in for growth, details are not listed), Calcium carbonate, xanthum gum, sterile water.

 

 

So... can someone tell me where this pig virus dna comes from??? is it in the cell culture media/Dulbeccos medium?? what else is in there?? how do we know, how do "they" know?

 

I don´t know... I read on another thread on here yesterday about polio vax contaminations in the past.... I tend to shy away from conspiracy theories.... but if everyone is admitting that there is dna from porcine viruses in these vaxes (and who knows what else??), and the officials just state it´s safe without much investigation, it doesn´t seem so difficult to entertain other cases or purposed cases of vax contaminations...

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And many people would never think to even look into that.  Maybe they'd skim the article if they found it in their paper and shrug after reading the FDA finds it safe.  All you need to know.  

 

Thanks for this info Taxi
 

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From www.ageofautism.com: "Paul Offit, co-inventor of Merck’s Rotateq® vaccine, sat on the regulatory body that held the authority to create the market for the rotavirus vaccine category, participated in committee deliberations that bore directly on the commercial value of that category and voted in favor of measures that expanded the resulting market; all this while a vaccine formulation protected by his patented invention in the same category was proceeding through clinical trials."

 

AoA estimates that Offit has earned upwards of $10 million from Rotateq.

******************************

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-03-22/health/rotavirus.vaccine_1_rotavirus-vaccine-rotarix-glaxosmithkline?_s=PM:HEALTH

 

Federal health authorities recommended Monday that doctors suspend using Rotarix, one of two vaccines licensed in the United States against rotavirus, saying the vaccine is contaminated with material from a pig virus.

"There is no evidence at this time that this material poses a safety risk," Food and Drug Administration Commissioner Dr. Margaret Hamburg told reporters in a conference call.

Rotarix, made by GlaxoSmithKline, was approved by the FDA in 2008. The contaminant material is DNA from porcine circovirus 1, a virus from pigs that is not known to cause disease in humans or animals, Hamburg said.

******************

http://vaccinenewsdaily.com/fda/212970-pig-virus-dna-found-in-mercks-rotateq-vaccine/

Pig virus DNA found in Merck’s Rotateq vaccine

 

Rotavirus_vaccine.jpg

Rotateq vaccine

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration reported May 6 that fragments of two types of pig viruses were found in Merck & Co.’s Rotateq vaccine.

One virus is the same one found in GlaxoSmithKline PLC’s Rotarix vaccine in March. The FDA, at the time, recommended doctors stop using that vaccine and use Rotateq instead, even though the agency said it didn’t think the virus posed any safety risks to humans.

Both vaccines are designed to protect infants from a gastrointestinal illness caused by rotavirus and have been given to millions of babies since Merck’s Rotateq vaccine was approved for use in the U.S. in 2006.

Officials said tests identified fragments of DNA from PCV1 and from a related porcine circovirus, PCV2, in its Rotateq vaccine. PCV1 and PCV2 are common in pigs. Neither PCV1 nor PCV2 are known to cause illness in humans. However, FDA officials said PCV2 may cause illness in pigs.

*******************

So Offit's vaccine is tainted with TWO kinds of pig viruses, including one found in a competing brand, which was pulled because of the contamination.  Yet official word is that Offit's vaccine is safe (and "necessary").  And Offit, inventor of Rotateq, is a member of ACIP, the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, and voted to withdraw both RotaShield and Rotarix.

 



 

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#44 of 55 Old 01-23-2012, 11:17 AM
 
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So what water, exactly, do you think they would be using to mix formula?  Do you think these women would have enough money to mix the formula exactly as instructed, or might they water it down (with more tainted water, of course) to make it last longer?  Or do you think it would be affordable and practical for them to buy (and carry for miles, without a car) pre-mixed formula?

 

You do know, don't you, that, just like in the US, formula companies give free samples to new mums?  And that they give just enough to make sure that lactation is hindered, thereby creating a "need" for the formula?

 

Goodness! How do you know they can afford formula? or even if they've ever seen it? I know about the free samples, sure, but I doubt that all the struggling communities are swimming in free formula. I'm talking about substitutes such as animal milk, chewed up food, flour mixed with water. For THAT, a rotavirus vaccination will be very useful. So if a breastfeeding mom takes an extra hour break between the vaccination and the next feeding, I don't see how that would be harmful.

 

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Goodness! How do you know they can afford formula? or even if they've ever seen it? I know about the free samples, sure, but I doubt that all the struggling communities are swimming in free formula. I'm talking about substitutes such as animal milk, chewed up food, flour mixed with water. For THAT, a rotavirus vaccination will be very useful. So if a breastfeeding mom takes an extra hour break between the vaccination and the next feeding, I don't see how that would be harmful.

 



 

http://thehealingjournal.com/node/674

Pushing Infant Formula in Africa and the Results...

It was reported that in Nkange, Botswana, a step to cut AIDS proved a formula for disaster (by Craig Timberg Washington Post ForeignService, Monday, July 23, 2007)
AID$ INC. dissuaded  HIV positive African women from breast feeding and instead, feed their infants' baby formula. This resulted in a 20 fold increase in infant mortality compared to breast-fed controls.
“Doctors noticed two troubling things about the limp, sunken-eyed children who flooded pediatric wards across Botswana during the rainy season in early 2006: They were dying from diarrhea, a malady that is rarely fatal here. And few of their mothers were breast-feeding, a practice once all but universal.”
“After the outbreak was over and at least 532 children had died (20 times the usual toll for diarrhea) a team of U.S. investigators solved the terrible riddle.”
“A decade-long, global push to provide infant formula (as a substitute for breast feeding) to mothers with the AIDS virus had backfired in Botswana, leaving children more vulnerable to other, more immediately lethal diseases, the U.S. team found after investigating the outbreak at the request of Botswana‘s government.”
-
In Botswana, Step to Cut AIDS Proves a Formula for Disaster, by Craig Timberg, 

Nestle sends its representatives to developing countries, dressed in white so as to appear as 'knowledgeable' medical personnel. They give free samples of formula to hospitals and health workers. As the process of birth is moving from the traditional home and family environment into the increasingly medicalized, western arena, so millions of mothers are at the mercy of the staff they encounter. Nestle gives gifts and incentives to local health officials, as encouragement in promoting their products, and therefore discouraging breastfeeding. Representatives from the charity Baby Milk Action heard Nestle employees telling midwives in Africa that "all Western women use formula to feed their babies, so that they grow up big and strong."****
 
 
 

 

 

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#46 of 55 Old 01-23-2012, 01:26 PM
 
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"Health officials in Botswana remained unconvinced. Tlou, the health minister, said the outbreak was a one-time occurrence that should not, by itself, dictate a new policy. Officials instead are focusing on making formula feeding safer by encouraging women to boil water and feed their babies using cups, which are easier to clean than bottles."

 

The country officials know that HIV+ women in western countries formula feed and have no risk of infecting their babies w/ HIV through feeding, and wanted that standard for themselves. Recommendations say that it is best to exclusively breast feed for the first 6 months regardless of HIV status if you don't have access to clean water/clean conditions/pre-mixed formula. Research showed that was the case and scientists came out and said "WE WERE WRONG" in response to the new information. Sometimes people are wrong. It amazes me how high the burden of proof is for mainstream medicine and science and how low it is for "naturopathic healing" methods. I guess if you make statements that are nearly impossible to disprove, like "I emit healing energy rays from my fingertips" or "this .0000000000000000000000001nm concentration of whatever substance is INCREDIBLY POTENT", people just take your word for it.

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Katie, I have never recommended naturopathic healing nor have I recommended fingertip healing. I haven't tried either one.

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#48 of 55 Old 01-23-2012, 05:15 PM
 
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How about homeopathy? Magnets? Megadoses of vitamins? Herbal remedies? 

 

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/817427-overview

 

Quality controls are in place for conventional medicines, including vaccines. The system is not perfect but at least it exists. What bothers me is not that medicine is held up to a high evidentiary standard (that's a good thing), but that CAM is at the same time swallowed hook, line and sinker.


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http://thehealingjournal.com/node/674

Pushing Infant Formula in Africa and the Results... (...)

 

I know about that. I don't think it is the issue here.


Formula companies can and probably will use even Santa Clause and Easter Bunny for evil purposes. That does not mean that immunologists should stop research and not give any recommendations.

 

 

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How about homeopathy? Magnets? Megadoses of vitamins? Herbal remedies? 

 

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/817427-overview

 

Quality controls are in place for conventional medicines, including vaccines. The system is not perfect but at least it exists. What bothers me is not that medicine is held up to a high evidentiary standard (that's a good thing), but that CAM is at the same time swallowed hook, line and sinker.



I don´t really understand where this is coming from... maybe I missed something in this thread, but I didn´t see anyone suggesting we send a whole buncha magnets and herbs to developing coutnries to save all the babies....


What bothers me is when you questions anything in conventional medical system you are accused of being a nut or being swayed too much by looney internet research. Two way road I guess.

 

I think people were just questioning the issue that if it appears that bfing is so protective against rota, that drs. are encouraging delaying bfing after the vax, then maybe it is not so needed in all cases.  What if the mother took that advice and saw her baby was hungry and started feeding with alternative means - formula or animal milk, or whatever mushy food mixed with water. Or if you tell me your breastmilk ruins the effectiveness of the vaccine, wait to bf for some time... well if I didn´t know much, maybe I´d assume my bm is bad then, or that if I wait even longer than an hour, maybe it will work even better! Perhaps if women knew how effective EBF was they would be encouraged to keep it up. 

 

 

 

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http://www.homeopathyworldcommunity.com/group/haitidisasterrelief?xg_source=activity

 

http://www.homeopathyforhealthinafrica.org/


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ok... but you are the one who brought this up, I didn´t see anyone here promoting homeopathic med or light out of fingertips in place of the rota vax, i thought we were talking about breastmilk... (although if I missed something, I apologize, I´m trying to read several vax threads at the same time).

 

for what it´s worth, we live in DH´s country, south american developing, and homeopathic med is way way more mainstream here than in the US. I know little about it and have never been to a homepath, or any other alt. dr. for that matter. 

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This does not make any sense.  One minute it is one thing the next minute it is something else.  I am not giving my son formula if I can help it because it hurts his stomach.  It seems like no matter what information changes from day to day. I don't know who to listen to anymore.

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#54 of 55 Old 01-24-2012, 07:34 PM
 
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Nicole, unless you live in a developing country and are of low socioeconomic status, this research really is not applicable to you at all. Basically they are trying to figure out if babies in those conditions should take the rotavirus vaccine on an empty stomach, so maybe not feeding them an hour before and after they get it.


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#55 of 55 Old 01-28-2012, 08:54 AM
 
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A little clarification on the matter (pretty much what Katie8681 says...and even then there are unanswered questions):

 

http://bfmed.wordpress.com/2012/01/28/abm-president-responds-to-vaccines-and-breastfeeding/


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