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#1 of 34 Old 01-28-2012, 06:19 AM - Thread Starter
 
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It is not meant to be a sub-forum to debate the pros and cons of vaccines, but rather to discuss the personal implications of the vaccine decision, questions and concerns that arise as it is made and resources helpful in making the decision.

How is one supposed to research and make decisions about vaccinations if the pros and cons cannot be discussed? What exactly is the purpose of this forum, then, and how is it different than the others?

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#2 of 34 Old 01-28-2012, 06:22 AM
 
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I think that is a brilliant question and one I had myself.

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#3 of 34 Old 01-28-2012, 08:49 AM
 
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I posted a reminder about this policy in one thread just to prevent it from getting a padlock slapped on it.  But I totally see where you're coming from.  Maybe take it up with the Mods?  There's a Questions and Suggestions forum on MDC, so you might start there. 

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#4 of 34 Old 01-28-2012, 01:05 PM
 
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#5 of 34 Old 01-28-2012, 01:20 PM
 
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I hope they clear it up.  I like reading the back and forth and it certainly gives me more to look into.  I don't think there is anyway you can ever be completely certain about anything honestly.  There is so much out there for both sides and it really is important that they're explored.  Especially on here.

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#6 of 34 Old 01-29-2012, 03:17 AM
 
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Actually that's the first thing I wondered too. Bit difficult to talk about your decision without discussing the pros and cons of vaccination - since presumably that's what your informed decision would have been based on! ;) 

 

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#7 of 34 Old 01-29-2012, 04:59 AM
 
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How can a person make an informed decision without being able to see/debate the pro's n con's of such an important issue?  To me, its kinda like picking a president on hearsay without being able to see or hear any evidence on either side.  

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#8 of 34 Old 01-29-2012, 05:57 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Yeah, I saw the name of the forum and thought that MDC was finally going to allow rational discussion, but I guess not. 

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#9 of 34 Old 01-29-2012, 06:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by amma_mama View Post

Yeah, I saw the name of the forum and thought that MDC was finally going to allow rational discussion, but I guess not. 



There is debate/discussion allowed on the main vaccine page.

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#10 of 34 Old 01-29-2012, 06:58 AM
 
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The way I look at it is it's not supposed to be pro or anti vaccine people posting just for the heck of it, it's supposed to be moms who are honestly not sure what they're going to do, so if pro-vaccine mom posts their opinion, good.  If  an anti-vaccine mom posts their opinion, good.  But if pro-vaccine mom then responds to anti-vaccine mom, and they go at it, back and forth, that defeats the purpose.  The mom who originally posted should be able to take the information from both sides and come to her own conclusion as it relates to her own life.  I think it's possible to present both sides to a mom wondering what to do, without it getting into a heated debate.  


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#11 of 34 Old 01-29-2012, 07:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by emmy526 View Post

How can a person make an informed decision without being able to see/debate the pro's n con's of such an important issue?  To me, its kinda like picking a president on hearsay without being able to see or hear any evidence on either side.  



I guess.  I think I understand MDC's intent - sometimes we do get so bogged down in debate (not all of it friendly) that perhaps MDC worries that the loud talking heads (myself included)  will overtake the needs of parents faced with making a decision.

 

And yet I think keeping discussion or disagreement totally out of it is going to be tricky.  Even talking about your own experiences are tricky.  I could coach everything I say in "I" sentences  - such as "I was worried about what the real side effect rate from this vaccine was"  and someone else could come on and say " I am not worried because the only valid information comes from CDC and the risks are very small." but that would promote a sort of passive aggressive, underhanded  style of communication that might make getting to the meat on the matter really onerous.

 

It will be interesting to see how this forum plays out.

 

 

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#12 of 34 Old 01-29-2012, 06:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by lovebeingamomma View Post

The way I look at it is it's not supposed to be pro or anti vaccine people posting just for the heck of it, it's supposed to be moms who are honestly not sure what they're going to do, so if pro-vaccine mom posts their opinion, good.  If  an anti-vaccine mom posts their opinion, good.  But if pro-vaccine mom then responds to anti-vaccine mom, and they go at it, back and forth, that defeats the purpose.  The mom who originally posted should be able to take the information from both sides and come to her own conclusion as it relates to her own life.  I think it's possible to present both sides to a mom wondering what to do, without it getting into a heated debate.  

THen why not just have a resource page with two sets of resources, pro and anti, and let people form their own decisions based on the information available. What would really be useful, is having comments on the resources - there is a lot of bad information out there - and a lot of flies in both directions here on MDC and elsewhere but few people are really equipped to understand what the actual studies did, whether it was scientifically sound, and what the conclusions were, if any. If not, it is just the same old, same old that you find in the other forums here. I don't want "opinion", I want to understand the facts and the science behind them.
 

 


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#13 of 34 Old 01-29-2012, 06:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by amma_mama View Post

THen why not just have a resource page with two sets of resources, pro and anti, and let people form their own decisions based on the information available. What would really be useful, is having comments on the resources - there is a lot of bad information out there - and a lot of flies in both directions here on MDC and elsewhere but few people are really equipped to understand what the actual studies did, whether it was scientifically sound, and what the conclusions were, if any. If not, it is just the same old, same old that you find in the other forums here. I don't want "opinion", I want to understand the facts and the science behind them.
 

 


 

It sounds like what you want is a subforum that comes at things from what I would consider a tradition medical/scientific viewpoint (fairly pro-vax).  If you want a "I vaccinate"  forum you could ask for one.  We have a Non-vax forum and I quite like having people I don't have to defend/explain my viewpoint to over and over.  

 

I said it earlier, but I will say it again - I think debate and discussion definitely happen on the main vaccination page - do you disagree?  headscratch.gif

 

 

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#14 of 34 Old 01-30-2012, 02:18 AM
 
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My sister's baby died the day after vaccination and I have some in-laws that claim their child is autistic due to vaccines.  So, I had to do some quite the research on the issue.  The implications of not vaccinating are that you will worry more often about your child getting a deadly disease.  You will also be restricted at with international travel and if an outbreak at the school occurs.  Here is what I learned.

 

1- What they put into the vaccines is appalling.  If you read the ingredients, you will know right away that this is pure poison.  Some of the worst offenders have been mercury (thimerosol), aborted fetus (rubella vaccination), monkey kidney, and formeldehyde (heavy toxin).  The list is long for each.  If you harrass your doctor, they'll eventually give you the tiny microprint label that comes with the vaccine. 

 

2- Many of the diseases are not that serious and/or do not exist.  That means that in many cases, the vaccine is more for convenience than true safety.  Like our pediatrician said, "We don't really need a chicken pox vaccine, but it sure is a lot nicer than having to treat the disease."  With polio, there hasn't been a case in the US for twenty years and if you do get it, it's less than a mild cold.  It just so happens that a tiny percentage of those who get it have very detrimental effects and that's what the vaccine was invented for.  People are afraid polio will come back without the vaccine.  I have no idea if that is plausible or not.

 

3- Some of the diseases are pretty serious.  For example, meningitis amd HIB.  The vaccine protects against bacterial meningitis and bacterial HIB, but not viral.  So, statistically you're about 50% covered.  There have been real reductions in death from this vaccine in the last 30 years.  Whooping cough is making a comeback and a friend of mine had their baby nearly die from it.  So, this is a real concern as whooping cough cases have been shooting upwards due to lack of immunization.

 

I think your chances of problems are small either way you go (vaccinate or not).  Dr. Laura claims about 7k kids are harmed each year by vaccinations (a small number).  And, the Feds have a national vaccine compensation fund for people hurt by the vaccines.  So, they are not harmless.  Merck has been sued by large groups many times for the bad effects.  Still, they do protect the population and so here is what I ultimately think.  

 

There are too many vaccinations and they start them at too young of an age (especially hepatitis b); especially since it's a sexually transmitted disease.  Some vaccinations should be removed, but they generate too much cash and people are so fearful of the disease coming back.  Many countries vaccinate much less than the US and have better mortality rates and lower issues in things like autism, gastointestinal issues, and add (all supposed vaccination effects).  

 

I don't know if this helps.  I got a lot of information from the CDC website a few years back, but someone told me they took all the negative information off their website now.  Benjamin Franklin didn't immunize his son against small pox because he was afraid of the vaccination and his son died from it.  It was one of his greatest regrets.  And yet, that's anecdotal evidence and doesn't mean much.  Still, if nobody has died of the disease for many many years, then it's probably not that scary of a thing and that's how many of these diseases are; and some are not.   

 

 

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#15 of 34 Old 01-30-2012, 06:48 AM
 
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Because moms are going to be posting about their life.  There are so many factors to consider.  This is not one size fits all.  And as someone else pointed out their is plenty of regular old debate on the main forum.  
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by amma_mama View Post

THen why not just have a resource page with two sets of resources, pro and anti, and let people form their own decisions based on the information available. What would really be useful, is having comments on the resources - there is a lot of bad information out there - and a lot of flies in both directions here on MDC and elsewhere but few people are really equipped to understand what the actual studies did, whether it was scientifically sound, and what the conclusions were, if any. If not, it is just the same old, same old that you find in the other forums here. I don't want "opinion", I want to understand the facts and the science behind them.
 

 



 


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#16 of 34 Old 01-30-2012, 07:14 AM
 
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Originally Posted by misskitty View Post

 

 If you harrass your doctor, they'll eventually give you the tiny microprint label that comes with the vaccine. 

 

 



True--but it's easier to look it up on the internet before you go to the appointment!  Print it out and bring it with you, in case they claim that they can't find the package insert, or show you one for a different vaccine.  I had to show the nurse where "thimerosal-25 mcg" was listed on a multi-vial vaccine that SHE insisted was thimerosal-free (multi-vial vaccines are always preserved with thimerosal.)  And this was in 2004--well after thimerosal was supposedly "taken out" of pediatric vaccines.

 

What really happened was that the pharmaceutical companies continued to sell and distribute thimerosal-containing vaccines.  And pediatricians continued to use them as long as the expiration date had not passed.  

 

You can find the package inserts here:  http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/package_inserts.htm

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#17 of 34 Old 01-30-2012, 09:51 AM
 
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I can't answer all of your questions, but I can at least shed some light on the topic. The goal of this forum was to provide a place for newbies to start their vax research. Some new members haven't felt comfortable posting in S&D or INV because they either haven't made up their minds yet or they want to explore other options that are outside of the forum guidelines for those subforums. Also, I think we can all agree this is one of the more passionate forums on MDC, and it can be intimidating for new people to wander in and ask beginners-level questions.

We DO have a number of resources from all sides of the decision posted here, but the archives and resources lists are long and not easy to navigate for someone new to the topic. If there are resources you feel are missing, ALL members have been invited to add links, articles, etc. to the articles section of the website (formerly known as the wiki). I think I can still archive threads at your request, etc.

I'm not sure this forum is working out as intended, but we're trying to make it a comfortable place for *everyone* to seek information, and maybe that's the root of our mistake?

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I'm not sure this forum is working out as intended, but we're trying to make it a comfortable place for *everyone* to seek information, and maybe that's the root of our mistake?

I think people having a safe place to seek information, without wading into passionate debates, is cool.

 

I am just not sure what it looks look.

 

What if some one posts something that is clearly wrong - are we not supposed to be able to comment?  

 

And, of course, what is "clearly wrong " is often subjective….
 

(while it hasn't worked perfectly, I do think there are few threads on this new subforum that have not veered into polarised  arguing)

 

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#19 of 34 Old 01-30-2012, 06:37 PM
 
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I just read that there is a resource page of sorts - why not work on making that easier to navigate for newbies?  Why create a brand new forum that really doesn't serve much of a purpose?
 

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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

I think people having a safe place to seek information, without wading into passionate debates, is cool.

 

I am just not sure what it looks look.

 

What if some one posts something that is clearly wrong - are we not supposed to be able to comment?  

 

And, of course, what is "clearly wrong " is often subjective….
 

(while it hasn't worked perfectly, I do think there are few threads on this new subforum that have not veered into polarised  arguing)

 



As someone who lurks on the vax forums, I have to say, I do agree with this.  I don't usually post on these boards because responders often become self-righteous and condescending and I can only handle so much.  Ultimately, both sides could present compelling, scientific evidence, but without discussion/debate of it, where does that leave the newbies?  In allowing debate, you're simply duplicating a forum that already exists.  Further, you're dealing with a passionate topic so yes, people are going to voice their opinion(s) when they think a response is "clearly wrong" and ultimately, it is all very subjective.  I think it's asking a little too much to have a debate-free forum where both sides co-exist and provide their opinion without responding to individual posters. 

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#20 of 34 Old 01-31-2012, 01:19 AM
 
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I think it would make sense to have an "I choose to vaccinate" board to balance the "selective/delayed", and "I'm not vaccinating" boards. That would then give people who are pro vaccination, but enjoy the Mothering ethos in all other ways a place here to feel at home, without needing to get angry or indignant at misinformation and anecdotes posted elsewhere. Plus newbies wanting to see that side of the argument without it getting heated could then visit there. How would you go about asking Mothering for that? 

 

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I think it would make sense to have an "I choose to vaccinate" board to balance the "selective/delayed", and "I'm not vaccinating" boards. That would then give people who are pro vaccination, but enjoy the Mothering ethos in all other ways a place here to feel at home, without needing to get angry or indignant at misinformation and anecdotes posted elsewhere. Plus newbies wanting to see that side of the argument without it getting heated could then visit there. How would you go about asking Mothering for that? 

 

 Karen. 

 



I was agreeing with you as I read your post--until I got to the bolded words (bolding mine), which imply that anyone questioning the safety and efficacy of vaccines is "ant-vaccine," and is posting misinformation, and that our personal anecdotes are worthy of an angry or indignant response.

 

This is a really good example of the problems with this whole issue.

 

It goes way, way beyond passionate belief on both sides. 

 

As long as people on either side continue to villify anyone on the "opposite" side...heck, as long as people ASSUME that anyone questioning their position is on the "opposite" side, this will remain an extremely contentious issue.

 

Declaration of conflict of interest:  I used to be "pro-vaccine." I used to believe that children needed each and every vaccine on the recommended schedule, that delaying vaccines was risky, and that the risks of the vaccines themselves were nearly nonexistent.  I believed that parents who thought their children were reacting to vaccines were nut cases.

 

Then my children had severe (and medically documented) reactions to vaccines. Then I found out that, contrary to what I'd been told by the "pro-science" people, these reactions are not rare, as I had been told.

 

I wish to heaven that I'd listened to  the "nut cases" rather than the "pro-science" people.

 

 

I wish I had an answer for this forum, but I don't. The best I can come up with is to suggest that people on BOTH sides of the issue get warned and then banned if they vilify the other side. The rule should be that each side must present their information WITHOUT attacking the other side.  It's okay to disgree with a conclusion, but not to accuse the other side of misinformation.  Personal attacks should not be tolerated.
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#22 of 34 Old 01-31-2012, 07:29 AM
 
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I guess you can PM a mod.  I'm interested in both sides as well but they do get into spats here.  I don't mind trudging through it all.  I have firm beliefs on the FLU vaccine but the others I'm not 100% sure on.  I want to hear both sides and there are quite a few knowledgeable people on MDC, however it gets mixed in with Personal beliefs based on circumstances that "WE" the reader can not always put much stock into.
 

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I think it would make sense to have an "I choose to vaccinate" board to balance the "selective/delayed", and "I'm not vaccinating" boards. That would then give people who are pro vaccination, but enjoy the Mothering ethos in all other ways a place here to feel at home, without needing to get angry or indignant at misinformation and anecdotes posted elsewhere. Plus newbies wanting to see that side of the argument without it getting heated could then visit there. How would you go about asking Mothering for that? 

 

 Karen. 

 



 

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#23 of 34 Old 01-31-2012, 08:07 AM
 
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If you're going to have a "I choose to vaccinate" board people are going to start asking for "I choose to circumcise" "I choose to spank" "I choose to have c-sections" boards too...just sayin'  And if you think having a pro-vaccine board is going to keep heated debates away your wrong, just like pro-vaccine people ignore the rules and post all the time on the "I'm not vaccinating" board.  

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#24 of 34 Old 01-31-2012, 08:13 AM
 
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Right but a lot of times you have people that come here looking for REAL information.  Hoping they can get some insight into it all.  If you only supply them with one side of it, how are you actually helping them?

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#25 of 34 Old 01-31-2012, 08:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by lovebeingamomma View Post

  And if you think having a pro-vaccine board is going to keep heated debates away your wrong, just like pro-vaccine people ignore the rules and post all the time on the "I'm not vaccinating" board.  


 

Yes, but there is recourse in the user guidelines on the I'm not vaccinating board - I have reminded people this is the "I'm not vaccinating forum" and they usually tone it down.  I have reported people (rarely) as well.  

 

There is debate on "I'm Not Vaccinating" but there is less and it is more respectfully worded than the free-for-all of the main page.

 

I think a vaccinating subforum might work well -vaccinators can post there, non vaccinators will post  on the "I'm not vaccinating", selective on the selective and if they want debate they can hash it out on the main page.  

 

There are numerous vaccinators here.  Some may post just to debate or to try and take shots at non-vaccinating (troll -like behaviour) but many are MDC members who participate in other forums and happen to be (perhaps even passionately) pro vax. 

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#26 of 34 Old 01-31-2012, 09:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by lovebeingamomma View Post

If you're going to have a "I choose to vaccinate" board people are going to start asking for "I choose to circumcise" "I choose to spank" "I choose to have c-sections" boards too...just sayin'  And if you think having a pro-vaccine board is going to keep heated debates away your wrong, just like pro-vaccine people ignore the rules and post all the time on the "I'm not vaccinating" board.  


That's completely apples and oranges.  There are moms here who vax due to the science they have studied.  Some choose not to vax. 

 

Either choice can be valid.

 

That is not true of circ or spanking.

 

I won't even touch the comment about "I choose to have c-sections" part....

 


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#27 of 34 Old 01-31-2012, 09:07 AM
 
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The Selective and Delayed Vax subforum is essentially an "I am vaccinating" forum because it's still open to people who select all vaxes, even on schedule. But the emphasis is that the decision is an informed one, born out of research and careful consideration, and not because it's "mandatory". Non-vaxers are welcome to post there, just as vaxers are welcome to post in INV, though the debate threads should be generally kept to the main Vax forum. The goal isn't to shut down discussion but rather to create different environments for different kinds of questions. For example, sometimes we refer some vax questions to the Special Needs board because the parents there have different knowledge and experience which might be helpful.

Making the resources visible to members new to the topic is a little trickier in this board format; but even if we got a sky-writer pointing people to the right place, there are literally thousands of posts and links of information that no newbie could possible tackle! What's the best way to make the vax boards welcoming to someone who is really and truly just getting started? Maybe a couple of members could act like ambassadors and point people in the right direction? Maybe reorganize the resources, or pare it down to just a handful of the most frequently used sources for starters?

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#28 of 34 Old 01-31-2012, 12:28 PM
 
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Mosaic: thanks I hadn't thought of "Selective and Delayed Vax" as including anyone choosing to vaccination, but of course it can and does include selecting all vaccinations. I will visit that forum. 

 

Taximom5 - I'm sorry I made you upset and I did not mean to imply that all posts on an anti-vax forum would include misinformation and anecdotes, but in my experience many do. I will admit to being passionately pro-vax based on my understanding of the science behind vaccination, and I sometimes visit anti-vax sites in a hope to understand the choice to not vaccinate. Also as a fan of much else on Mothering the anti-vax viewpoint is often assumed of me. The choice not to vaccinate does worry me as it often seems in my opinion to be based on misunderstanding/fear of the science behind vaccines or on personal anecdotes (however upsetting, and I am very sorry to hear your family had a bad reaction to vaccination). However I don't agree that stating that something which has been said is wrong and/or misinformation is a personal attack. The issues are very confusing, and most of use are just trying to do the best for our family and society as a whole.  


Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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#29 of 34 Old 01-31-2012, 01:40 PM
 
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I was listing things I could think of that Mothering has in the guidelines (as a "we don't promote" bla bla bla)...just off the top of my head.  And I disagree completely, I respect parents right to choose to spank, circ, and have planned c-sections...all have pro's and con's that can be discussed just like vaccinations.  Just because you've made up your mind about those topics doesn't mean other moms don't want to discuss them.  I was just pointing out that having an exclusive "I'm Vaccinating" forum, is something you can find on any mainstream site, Mothering has always stood out as not having forums like that.  Really I don't care either way I'm just talking here...
 

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Originally Posted by Youngfrankenstein View Post


That's completely apples and oranges.  There are moms here who vax due to the science they have studied.  Some choose not to vax. 

 

Either choice can be valid.

 

That is not true of circ or spanking.

 

I won't even touch the comment about "I choose to have c-sections" part....

 



 


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#30 of 34 Old 01-31-2012, 01:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovebeingamomma View Post

I was listing things I could think of that Mothering has in the guidelines (as a "we don't promote" bla bla bla)...just off the top of my head.  And I disagree completely, I respect parents right to choose to spank, circ, and have planned c-sections...all have pro's and con's that can be discussed just like vaccinations.  Just because you've made up your mind about those topics doesn't mean other moms don't want to discuss them. 
 



 


Now you're mis-quoting things.  I never said those were my values, I am saying that it's what the board has told everyone where they stand.  The same is not true for vaxing.  They don't have a specific side of "absolutely not"! 

 

This board has said that they will not host any kind of discussions about the pros and cons of things like circ and spanking.  You agree to those rules to post here. 

 

 

I really don't understand this new forum.  You either trust certain sources or you don't. shrug.gif


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