Call out to anyone pro-vaxxer who has brought up "first world, privileged women" lately…... - Mothering Forums

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Old 02-17-2012, 06:57 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Care to explain your logic?

 

In the last month or so I notice people throwing out the words "first world, privileged" in discussions…as an argument in favour of vaxxing.

 

I am supposed to vax my kids because people in Africa would give their right arm for vaxxes?  How is vaccinating my privileged snowflakes going to help someone from a disadvantaged country?  It is not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Old 02-17-2012, 07:51 AM
 
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Old 02-17-2012, 10:30 AM
 
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It's nothing I've said or argued, but I think I have somewhat of a handle on the argument.  It's not a new one.  

 

I think the idea is that not vaccinating is something that only those privileged enough to live in certain parts of the world get to decide because they live in a place where certain diseases have completely or mostly disappeared at least in part due to vaccines. Of course there's improved sanitation, diet, and medical care that come into play as well.  

 

I don't think the point of it is to convince people in economically developed countries to vaccinate to save people in poor areas of Africa but perhaps to remind people this choice is a great privilege and that everyone in the world does not have the same luxury and that vaccinations can be a good thing.  

 

I've never heard the "white" part of the argument.  Maybe that comes from the demographic that seems to be most attracted to not vaccinating.  

 

Feel free to agree or disagree.  I'm not here to debate just to offer what I've gathered about the idea.  

 

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Old 02-17-2012, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for you thoughts, Abbey.

 

I know the choice not to vax is somewhat one of privilege  (or at least the choice to not vax and know that diseases are both unlikely and treatable) …I am just not sure why people feel the need to remind me/us?  As in…what is the point?….I know I am privileged headscratch.gif

 

Do you think it is something they just say in the heat of battle  (and I do not mean to phrase this in a vaxxer versus non vaxxer battle….I am sure non vaxxers say some OT things in the heat of discussion as well!:)

 

Edited to add:  I am going to remove the "white" part.  I found two quotes (from the last week) where non vaxxers were called in a very OT way privileged women from first world countries - but no mention of race. 

 

 

 

 

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Old 02-17-2012, 10:37 PM
 
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I think it's kind of like, "Clean your plate because there are starving kids in China."

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Old 02-17-2012, 11:29 PM
 
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I was just talking to my mom (born in the mid-40s) about vaccines on the phone today.

 

I explained my experiences with vaccinating my children, which I had already told her about little by little, and she said that it sounded ridiculous to her that there are so many more shots on the schedule today.

 

She said that there was a child in her school who died of polio, and then the inoculations started.  She also reminded me that my grandmother had polio in her 30s and recovered without issue.  I told her about the quote from Jonas Salk, about how he thought the polio vaccine was responsible for more cases of polio than it prevented.  I mentioned that the US currently uses the inactive polio vaccine, and sends the live polio vaccine to developing nations.

 

She said, and I quote, "Well, better them than us, I guess."  

 

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Old 02-17-2012, 11:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post

I was just talking to my mom (born in the mid-40s) about vaccines on the phone today.

 

I explained my experiences with vaccinating my children, which I had already told her about little by little, and she said that it sounded ridiculous to her that there are so many more shots on the schedule today.

 

She said that there was a child in her school who died of polio, and then the inoculations started.  She also reminded me that my grandmother had polio in her 30s and recovered without issue.  I told her about the quote from Jonas Salk, about how he thought the polio vaccine was responsible for more cases of polio than it prevented.  I mentioned that the US currently uses the inactive polio vaccine, and sends the live polio vaccine to developing nations.

 

She said, and I quote, "Well, better them than us, I guess."  

 

yikes2.gif



For the record, she also called me a "good mommy" for doing research and trying to figure out what was best for our family.  She's biased of course, but she trusts that my husband and I are intelligent and logical, love our children, and will make the decisions we feel are best for our children's health.  She may be racist and elitist, but unlike many, she respects my decisions and how I have arrived at them.


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Old 02-17-2012, 11:52 PM
 
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Honestly, I think it is just a way to have a dig at someone you don't agree with. There is another thread active on MDC at the moment in which women who have any negative emotions surrounding their birth experience are called privileged westerners (or similar, can't remember the exact phrasing) as well.


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Old 02-18-2012, 07:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by katelove View Post

There is another thread active on MDC at the moment in which women who have any negative emotions surrounding their birth experience are called privileged westerners (or similar, can't remember the exact phrasing) as well.



Sometimes it's good to keep things in perspective.  I find it helpful to remind myself when I'm fretting over something that some people have actual problems, and my life is pretty good relatively speaking.  And I think some of the things middle class "first world" women worry over are pretty trivial and sometimes their worries are sort of self-inflicted and come from unrealistic expectations of life and what they deserve.  

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Old 02-18-2012, 08:17 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by katelove View Post

Honestly, I think it is just a way to have a dig at someone you don't agree with. There is another thread active on MDC at the moment in which women who have any negative emotions surrounding their birth experience are called privileged westerners (or similar, can't remember the exact phrasing) as well.



OMG.  Glad I have not read it - my blood pressure would rise.

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Old 02-18-2012, 08:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AbbyGrant View Post

Sometimes it's good to keep things in perspective.  I find it helpful to remind myself when I'm fretting over something that some people have actual problems, and my life is pretty good relatively speaking.  And I think some of the things middle class "first world" women worry over are pretty trivial and sometimes their worries are sort of self-inflicted and come from unrealistic expectations of life and what they deserve.  


I get that sometimes a little perspective can be good. But I dont think these are petty issues women are complaining about - they are issues that affect health, physical and emotional of individuals and families. We aren't complaining about a certain color of nail polish being unavailable... I don't find choices about medical procedures to be so trivial (in vax and birthing as katelove mentioned). 

 

I think it is just a way to shame someone into status quo because there exist situations worse than the American status quo in the world.

 

 

 

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Old 02-18-2012, 08:48 AM
 
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OMG.  Glad I have not read it - my blood pressure would rise.


If we're talking about the same thread, it was about letting go of the idea of the "perfect birth" not a support thread for mothers who are suffering birth trauma.  In the context of that thread, I don't think the comment was out of place. 

 

ETA - and the comment did not read like it reads here.  
 

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I think it is just a way to shame someone into status quo because there exist situations worse than the American status quo in the world.


I can see how it might be used that way, but I think there's some merit to the idea in particular situations in the vaccine debate, and I don't think it means accepting the status quo.  

 

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Old 02-18-2012, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by AbbyGrant View Post

I can see how it might be used that way, but I think there's some merit to the idea in particular situations in the vaccine debate, and I don't think it means accepting the status quo.  

 


 

Could you elaborate on what you mean by the bolded?  I am not sure what you mean....
 

 

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Old 02-18-2012, 10:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AbbyGrant View Post

I can see how it might be used that way, but I think there's some merit to the idea in particular situations in the vaccine debate, and I don't think it means accepting the status quo.  

 


I guess if so, it needs to be done tactfully and not used in spite, (to imply someone is out of touch with reality or selfish). What situations do you think it would be appropriate? I can't really see past how it would not imply that the person should stop whining and be happy for how the system is, since it could be worse.

 

I'm not sure exactly about the thread referring to birth, but I have noticed this in other places, particularly on Navel Gazing MW, I'm not really sure what happened to her.

 

http://navelgazingmidwife.squarespace.com/navelgazing-midwife-blog/2012/1/15/extract-this.html

http://navelgazingmidwife.squarespace.com/navelgazing-midwife-blog/2011/1/18/the-irony-of-privilege.html

 

I have a problem with someone telling a woman (or anyone really), how she should feel about her exeriences, especially large life changing events and medical procedures. I know a lot of this is in reaction towards issues in the NCB community, and a backlash so to speak. I understand the reasons, I just think it is going too far the other way. Sorry, off topic...

 

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Old 02-18-2012, 10:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

 

Could you elaborate on what you mean by the bolded?  


Oh I don't know.  I was just pondering.  Perhaps it could be mentioned in regard to someone appearing to be arrogant, judgmental, and/or ignorant.  People, on all sides of an issue course, can be all of those things sometimes, and I don't think there is anything wrong with reminding people.  I'm not going to come up with an example because that will just lead to more debate which I don't have the time or energy for.  I did not see the comments that inspired this thread.


 

Quote:
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Quote:

 

I have a problem with someone telling a woman (or anyone really), how she should feel about her exeriences, especially large life changing events and medical procedures. I know a lot of this is in reaction towards issues in the NCB community, and a backlash so to speak. I understand the reasons, I just think it is going too far the other way. Sorry, off topic...

 


In the thread about letting go of the perfect birth, the comment was not telling anyone else how to feel.  It was in reference to someone's own feelings on the issue. But I agree that people can be dismissive sometimes which is not cool. 

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Old 02-18-2012, 07:36 PM
 
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This reminded me of my dad telling me to eat my peas because kids were starving in Africa.  When I asked how me eating peas would help them I got smacked and told to eat.  End of discussion.  Similar to the response when I question some people about vaxxes, that is the only similarity I can find.  duck.gif  Interesting to hear what others think though.


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Old 02-18-2012, 07:47 PM
 
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There are people in 3rd world countries that dont trust the vaccines are healthy either.


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Old 02-19-2012, 11:06 PM
 
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Old 02-19-2012, 11:15 PM
 
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"...to remind people this choice is a great privilege and that everyone in the world does not have the same luxury and that vaccinations can be a good thing. " -PP

 

I think it is brought up to remind non-vaccinators that their choice would not be even moderately safely possible without the choice of many others to vaccinate. 

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Old 02-19-2012, 11:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Erin77 View Post

"...to remind people this choice is a great privilege and that everyone in the world does not have the same luxury and that vaccinations can be a good thing. " -PP

 

I think it is brought up to remind non-vaccinators that their choice would not be even moderately safely possible without the choice of many others to vaccinate. 



That is your opinion.  If you look at the historical data of disease decline, the declines happened sharply and significantly before the vaccines for those diseases were ever introduced.


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Old 02-19-2012, 11:38 PM
 
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I think it would actually be safer to not vaccinate if more people didn't.  Then some of these diseases kids are supposed to get in childhood wouldn't be so rare.  They would get them at an appropriate time and not later as adult when there could be more complications. 


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Old 02-20-2012, 04:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Even if the below premise is true, I still do not understand why someone would bother saying it. 

 

It really does remind me of the "eat your food, children in xyz are starving" saying.

 

It comes across a little bit as patronising and chastising.  Remove vaccines from the equation....if you were talking about whether antibiotics were overused in North America and someone came on and said you were a priveleged first world woman, you would prboably be like "wtf?"  ( at least I would - I know I am lucky, and it is not your job to remind me, nor do I need it).

 

Ah, well, my conclusion is they just don't like non-vaxxers, so they get in a dig this way, even if it makes little sense.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erin77 View Post

"...to remind people this choice is a great privilege and that everyone in the world does not have the same luxury and that vaccinations can be a good thing. " -PP

 

I think it is brought up to remind non-vaccinators that their choice would not be even moderately safely possible without the choice of many others to vaccinate. 



 

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Old 02-20-2012, 03:39 PM
 
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Even if the below premise is true, I still do not understand why someone would bother saying it. 

 

It really does remind me of the "eat your food, children in xyz are starving" saying.

 

It comes across a little bit as patronising and chastising.  Remove vaccines from the equation....if you were talking about whether antibiotics were overused in North America and someone came on and said you were a priveleged first world woman, you would prboably be like "wtf?"  ( at least I would - I know I am lucky, and it is not your job to remind me, nor do I need it).

 

Ah, well, my conclusion is they just don't like non-vaxxers, so they get in a dig this way, even if it makes little sense.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erin77 View Post

"...to remind people this choice is a great privilege and that everyone in the world does not have the same luxury and that vaccinations can be a good thing. " -PP

 

I think it is brought up to remind non-vaccinators that their choice would not be even moderately safely possible without the choice of many others to vaccinate. 



 


That's exactly how I interpreted it too.

 


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Old 02-20-2012, 04:41 PM
 
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I was just talking to my mom (born in the mid-40s) about vaccines on the phone today.

 

I explained my experiences with vaccinating my children, which I had already told her about little by little, and she said that it sounded ridiculous to her that there are so many more shots on the schedule today.

 

She said that there was a child in her school who died of polio, and then the inoculations started.  She also reminded me that my grandmother had polio in her 30s and recovered without issue.  I told her about the quote from Jonas Salk, about how he thought the polio vaccine was responsible for more cases of polio than it prevented.  I mentioned that the US currently uses the inactive polio vaccine, and sends the live polio vaccine to developing nations.

 

She said, and I quote, "Well, better them than us, I guess."  

 

yikes2.gif


I don't have time to elaborate because DD just woke up, but I had a very similar conversation about a month ago!

 


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Old 02-23-2012, 11:11 PM
 
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That's great for your grandmother. My mother in law got polio in one of the very last big waves of it, before the vaccine came out. Doctors told her mother she'd never walk again, but after a year of intense therapy, my MIL was back on her feet. Now she has post polio syndrome and it will probably put her back in a wheelchair. My uncle was totally deafened by mumps as a child. So there's some anecdotes from the other side.

 

I was one who referred to the privileged first world idea. It has nothing to do with "people are starving in Africa so eat your peas". I'm saying that in general, your problems are so miniscule in relation to much of the world that you have lost perspective. By far the most common side effects of vaccines are tenderness at the site of the shot and fussiness. I'll be frank: I think a lot, perhaps most, of the "adverse events" people pin on vaccines are a) in their heads or b)related by correlation only. 


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Old 02-24-2012, 12:06 AM
 
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 I'll be frank: I think a lot, perhaps most, of the "adverse events" people pin on vaccines are a) in their heads or b)related by correlation only. 



You think that because your child has never experienced an adverse event.  If your child had, you would think differently.  You choose to believe the best in what the pharmaceutical companies sell and the worst in what the affected parents say.

 

It's so interesting to me how this community encourages "Trust birth!" and "Mama's instincts are best!" and "Your pediatrician doesn't know how to care for an intact penis!" and then there are same-thinking members who think that mothers who claim that their children have vaccine injuries MUST be wrong.  It's hypocrisy, and helps no one.


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Old 02-24-2012, 05:26 AM
 
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. By far the most common side effects of vaccines are tenderness at the site of the shot and fussiness. I'll be frank: I think a lot, perhaps most, of the "adverse events" people pin on vaccines are a) in their heads or b)related by correlation only. 


you obviously never had a child get sicker and sicker with every vax he got....i saw it with my own eyes, and he suffered with his body reacting after   every   single   one...........i watched his allergies develop and worsen, asthma developed at 4mos old,  his immune system fail him repeatedly,  his skin condition which is hereditary started after his 2mo vaxes, and continued to get worse and worse...now he's a constantly sick adult.......  is that in our heads? 

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Old 02-24-2012, 05:39 AM
 
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Isn't the whole point of the "argument" (i'm pro-vax but i wouldn't say something like that to someone) just "be grateful for what you have"?

 

I do think we (all of us, however we vax) can lose touch of how other people in other parts of the world are living.  I mean, it might have been good if someone had told Gina Ford that however "great" it might be to have a sleep-trained, routine-tied, low-maintenance baby, many of the women in the world are actually hoping it'll SURVIVE the night, never mind sleep through it.  It's just a (clumsy) way of trying to get someone else to see a different perspective from the one they're displaying.  It's probably one of the less useful ways of doing so, definitely, but i guess that's the context i always view it in (i vax, but i do a lot of other stuff that is non-mainstream, so i too get the "that's just your privilege talking!" given to me a lot).

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Old 02-24-2012, 05:46 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Katie8681 View Post

 

I was one who referred to the privileged first world idea. It has nothing to do with "people are starving in Africa so eat your peas". I'm saying that in general, your problems are so miniscule in relation to much of the world that you have lost perspective. By far the most common side effects of vaccines are tenderness at the site of the shot and fussiness. I'll be frank: I think a lot, perhaps most, of the "adverse events" people pin on vaccines are a) in their heads or b)related by correlation only. 



That's a privileged attitude as well.  If your child had no side effects you were lucky (privileged?).  It does not matter how rare we think vaccine reactions are - everyone knows they exist.  If your child had a vax and no reaction you are lucky.  

 

 

 

 

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Old 02-24-2012, 06:46 AM
 
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That's a privileged attitude as well.  If your child had no side effects you were lucky (privileged?).  It does not matter how rare we think vaccine reactions are - everyone knows they exist.  If your child had a vax and no reaction you are lucky.  

 

 

Luck and privilege are hardly the same thing. I don't think that adverse vaccine reactions (or lack thereof) have anything to do with either luck or privilege - most likely its related to genetics and/or some environmental triggers (surely there is no real way of knowing). I also don't think that vax reactions are as common as people on this board seem to think - MDC is hardly a representation of society (any society) as a whole.

 

Privilege though, is related to a persons status in society. Luck, I don't know what luck is or isn't - I think people can make their own luck, and people can have things happen to them that are "lucky" and "unlucky" that an individual would have no control over, or the ability to prevent. I just don't think vaxes fall into the lucky/unlucky debate.
 

And really, my whole issue with 1st world privilege, is that in the developed world children don't often die of common, non-vax preventable diseases (diarrhea, vomiting, dehydration, starvation) - the fact that we have access to vaccines, and the ability to choose/decline/accept the medical treatment that we have access to is a big deal. People all over the world have NO medical care, no access to a nurse, doctor, emergency hotline, or anything. We are able to treat common illnesses, and common childhood troubles (that have nothing to do with vaxes), and our children live long enough for us to plan for things like a delayed vax schedule, or to delay until they start school, etc. In the first world we have lost sight of that, and are "privileged" just because we have running water and flush toilets, and ready access to soap. It doesn't have anything to do with vaxes really.

 

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