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#1 of 28 Old 03-02-2012, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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#2 of 28 Old 03-02-2012, 01:58 PM
 
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and when I posted "why so much mainstream hatred for non-vaxers" people were doubting the level of animosity/opposition alternative vaxers face. eyesroll.gif

 

I really think this is part of a bigger picture of a backlash/return to conservatism - we are seeing that politically with abortion/contraception, a backlash of sorts from what I can see in the natural childbirth community, etc. Not sure if my observations are accurate? - I'm not even in the US right now... I think vax are just going to be another choice/freedom under attack. My personal theory is crappy economy, weird political situation = conservative attitudes increasing. Maybe I'm totally off there, I don't know.

 

I read something recently where a dr. in Mississippi was saying he sometimes can't even get medical exemptions with 2 other drs/specialists agreeing. I think they have limits or need some other approval?

 

Maybe time to make a donation to NVIC or something... 

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#4 of 28 Old 03-02-2012, 04:50 PM
 
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Yea, there are definitely no political "black-and-whites" to this issue, as demonstrated by this admittedly unscientific MDC survey that I started last summer.  While most respondents identified themselves as "mostly liberal," I suspect that most MDC users do!  And everyone was still all over the map. 

 

Remember that Democrats in VT and CA have been introducing this anti-informed-consent legislation re: vaccines.  Meanwhile, in my very conservative state, alterna-vaxxers have great allies in the Republican party.  It's not always this way; on the contrary, you can't predict where leaders are going to go on this issue based on their partisan affiliation.  Sometimes, however, you can predict their stance based on how greedy they are....  thumb.gif

 

ETA: Miriam, WA State residents DO have the option to see a naturopathic physician for their Nanny State-mandated Bad Mommy Lecture.  It's a good loophole, but it puts a financial strain on families, most of whom will have to pay out-of-pocket for the visit.

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#5 of 28 Old 03-02-2012, 05:22 PM
 
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I didn't really mean conservative in politically right/republican sense - but "conservative" as in opposed to difference, change, "others,"   etc. I think (again, just my opinion), that there is a lot of apprehension/insecurity economically and politically.... so of course we need to attack the "threats" that aren't really threatening us, but will make us feel more safe. Add in some pertussis/measles "outbreaks" and the rise in interest and parents questioning the vax schedule to the point med/pharm is feeling threatened...

 

One question I'm starting to have is where the heck is the vax schedule going to end? Is it really the goal to vax for EVERYTHING? Everyone for everything, all the time? Brave new world indeed.

 

Oh and it's not just smallpox that leaves a scar... my daughter and husband have their "brands" from BCG. greensad.gif Def one I wish I had not allowed DD to get--- not the best post partum decision making...

 

Speaking of which... why doesn't US do BCG? Oh yeah... they ADMIT it doesn't work that well and preferred to be able to test for tb with skin test (not possible after vax), and actually treating the disease and preventing spread. huh. what a weird idea --- that could work in some cases? eyesroll.gif

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#6 of 28 Old 03-02-2012, 06:24 PM
 
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slmommy, sorry what is BCG?

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Bacillus Calmette-Guérin - for tuberculosis. I'm not sure about which countries do it, but there are a lot. I'm in Brazil, I believe quite a few european countries do it too, and many others.

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Bacillus Calmette-Guérin - for tuberculosis. I'm not sure about which countries do it, but there are a lot. I'm in Brazil, I believe quite a few european countries do it too, and many others.



What are the required vaxes in Brazil? I'm very curious what other countries do.

 

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#9 of 28 Old 03-02-2012, 06:45 PM
 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacillus_Calmette-Gu%C3%A9rin#Uses, lists some countries, maybe WHO site would have more complete list?

 

In Brazil, I'm not exactly sure about what is "required" - I will probably find out soon... but from what I understand, nothing is actually "required" it is "recommended" and I am not sure, but I do not believe that school entrance has requirements.... I asked my pedi and have read some stuff online, no firsthand school experiences yet.

 

 

The Public system provides (for free) - BCG, Heb B, DTP, Hib, Oral polio, Rotavirus, Yellow Fever (depending on area), and MMR. (as of 2010 anyway)

It does not offer Hep A, DTaP, inactivated polio, prevnar, Flu, Chickenpox, HPV, or Meningococcal. If you want any of those you need to go to a private clinic and pay out of pocket. 

 

BCG is more or less at birth/few days after, along with heel prick and Hep B.

 

ETA: http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=604 for Europe (scroll to map)

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#11 of 28 Old 03-02-2012, 08:02 PM
 
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Miriam, 

 

 I remember reading about why BCG is not given in US as it had to do with some studies they had done which showed very low efficacy. From what I've seen the effectiveness really spans a huge range geographically, I have no idea why, or who knows what other issues had to do with those studies so long ago. I think it is also agreed that tb a disease which has a huge amount to do with living conditions... 

 

Brazil does not require any vaccines for entry, tourists or permanent residents. Although... with all the OPV that goes around here maybe you'd want an IP! Yellow fever is recommended for some areas. Denegue is an issue here. They are working on a vax. Even if they had one, I'll take my chances without thanks. Really, what, a vax for that will be another reason for people to leave trash around (collecting water to breed mosquitoes - the main issue for denegue in urban areas, rural, ok a different story maybe). 

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Good point.  When I was a little girl I recall the health department drive to wipe out all childhood diseases in one generation.  Now we have chronic childhood diseases that the doctors refuse to connect to the vaccines.   The obesity vaccine has been in the works for a while as well as a lyme disease vaccine, and there is now a vaccine against cocaine or heroin addiction; a side effect is that the person cannot feel pleasure any longer.  Not sure if that is permanent or not.

 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/24/mexican-scientists-test-heroin-vaccine

http://www.newser.com/story/140422/vaccine-could-cut-heroin-addiction.html


ehh, google "strep vaccine" - in the works, Men B in the works, Norovirus in the works... I'm sure anything you can think of is "in the works".... and probably a lot of stuff we can't think of yet - which will be the next mega health crisis/threat, once there is a vax to sell $$$.

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ETA: Miriam, WA State residents DO have the option to see a naturopathic physician for their Nanny State-mandated Bad Mommy Lecture.  It's a good loophole, but it puts a financial strain on families, most of whom will have to pay out-of-pocket for the visit.



Yep.. WA state resident. ds's preschool is still waiting for his exemption form, and I have to enroll dd in kindy in like a week. I'm going to need to make a phone call to the ped's to find out what the damage is going to be on a WCV irked.gif. We're insured, but the deductible sure is obnoxious. When we took the newborn in the bill came back as like $200! Geez! I'm going to call and find out if thats simply the new patient exam cost or if I can expect that *Every* friggin time I bring my kids in. That was our first visit to the pedi since our ins changed to a deductible plan, so it was quite a shocker. We have the newborn exam bill to pay, dh had an urgent care visit, I had an urgent care visit.. those bills aren't paid yet. Not to mention the midwife bill I'm expecting! So I'm more than a little bitter that I have to go in to pay $200 for a signature of all things. My ped is decent enough that I don't expect a "bad mommy lecture" ;) I'll probably print off some info from the CDC and say "here's the information I've been looking at" and highlight my favorite parts.. like where it describes some of the childhood illnesses as "mild" and hep b being sexually transmitted. Stuff like that! If the ped visit will cost as much as the last visit.. I might just ask if they'll allow me to come in and get a signature real quick without an appt. If I have a *genuine reason* to take a child to the dr, I'll do it and pay the bill without complaint. But I resent having to go for petty reasons. Maybe I'll go and forward the bill to the governor. That'd be fun.


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#15 of 28 Old 03-03-2012, 03:48 AM
 
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Strep?  That is the cause of scarlet fever for which a vaccine was developed in 1924, and abandoned in 1940 because penicillin and antibiotics in general are much more efficient AND I am sure the side effects were a factor in abandoning the scarlet fever/scarletina vaccine, a disease that has dropped in incidence along with other diseases that have vaccines against them.  http://whqlibdoc.who.int/hq/2005/WHO_IVB_05.14_eng.pdf

 

That's the doc. I saw too about Group A Strep vax development.

 

I would not be surprised if they had a successful strep vax, that it would absolutely be added to school requirements. And I'm sure scarlet fever horror stories would abound.
 

 

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There was a lyme disease vaccine a few years back that they tried around here,(CT) but too many people had a reaction to it, so they stopped it.   

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#17 of 28 Old 03-03-2012, 07:55 AM
 
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LilStar, in my area, a naturopath costs about $90 out of pocket for the initial visit. Subsequent visits are cheaper. You might price that out. If you're NOT in an urban area, it may be worth a road trip to Seattle or Spokane or whatever is close to you. $200??? Yeesh! eyesroll.gif. And a naturopath will actually talk to you for longer than 10 min., although it looks like you've mastered the whole rigmarole of the WCV.. I love your strategy!

Miriam, I also see signs of hope in all of this.. Med-exemption-only has always been status quo in WV, and residents and policy-makers are finally starting to question it. Even though VT is considering legislating the same Nanny State nonsense as in WA, they did fail in their effort to take informed consent (philosophical exemption) completely away from parents and health care consumers. KS has been working on a philo exemption (they just have religious now).. There are a couple of other states trying to broaden exemptions.

Honestly, the out-of-control, let's-add-a-new-vaccine-solely-because-it-was-invented schedule may turn out to be more of a blessing than a curse.. I wouldn't have questioned ANY of it--or even considered exemptions an important issue--had it remained the same as when I was a kid---DTaP/DTP, MMR, and polio. I think a lot of parents are in my boat.
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#19 of 28 Old 03-03-2012, 06:31 PM
 
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Honestly, the out-of-control, let's-add-a-new-vaccine-solely-because-it-was-invented schedule may turn out to be more of a blessing than a curse.. I wouldn't have questioned ANY of it--or even considered exemptions an important issue--had it remained the same as when I was a kid---DTaP/DTP, MMR, and polio. I think a lot of parents are in my boat.


I agree with you... I would probably have never questioned vax if it were DTaP, MMR and IP. (especially new dtap - i would've had issues with dtp). Even a lot of people inclined to fully vax, start to wonder about hep B at birth and chicken pox requirement..... 

 

I feel that if "we" were really concerned with public health (and not pharma finances), certain vaxes would be prioritized and more concessions would be made for sel/del vaxers... different types of exemptions could exist so that parents with partially vaxed kids don't have to hide vax record and make them look like non-vaxers for religious exemption. Every state should have medical, religious, and philo exemptions. Does cp really need to be required?  flu? hpv? Can't there be "required" and "recommended," and still exemptions? Why can't we get separate MMR anymore? Maybe some ppl would be inclined to vax for measles (especially since we have now created generations without natural immunity), but see mumps/rubella as less valuable and decline the whole mmr. Why do babies need to carry the burden of the general public? Where is the additional/ "real" vaccine safety/efficacy research in regards to common concerns - ex. aluminum or the cumulative schedule? ... Even the most pro-vax probably can admit that all vpd are not equal... it seems like forcing people into the vax schedule as is (or growing) = more parents doing alternative/non vaxing. If "we" believe in herd immunity - shouldn't we care more about measles than cp, and not jepordize that potential selective vaxer turning into non-vaxer?

 

(...and before anyone brings it up... there are federal programs to get free/cheap vaccines to under/un-insured children, it is not just a matter of states needing to require things to force insurance companies to cover (...and it should be pointed out pharm gets paid a lot less by CDC for those federally funded vax than by private insurance). 

 

Unfortunately it just seems the whole system is built to gaurantee pharma the most profit and least responsibility. I don't know if that can really change until it becomes too politically inconvenient, and with all the fear mongering/propaganda/bad info from mainstream... I'm not sure if that will ever really happen, even with more ppl questioning vax. Maybe when they add another few vax to the schedule... maybe then there will be enough opposition? When 1/50 kids has autism and 1/3 learning disability? When increased vax reactions have more parents becoming vocal?

I think it is just cheaper/more convenient to mandate vax and portray the questioners as total nuts instead of doing anything semi-reasonable.

 

I have seen a few people mention that more states are trying to get philosophical exemptions - does anyone know how far along that is? just groups lobbying? or actual legislation being drafted?

 

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I agree with you... I would probably have never questioned vax if it were DTaP, MMR and IP. (especially new dtap - i would've had issues with dtp). Even a lot of people inclined to fully vax, start to wonder about hep B at birth and chicken pox requirement..... 

 

I feel that if "we" were really concerned with public health (and not pharma finances), certain vaxes would be prioritized and more concessions would be made for sel/del vaxers... different types of exemptions could exist so that parents with partially vaxed kids don't have to hide vax record and make them look like non-vaxers for religious exemption. Every state should have medical, religious, and philo exemptions. Does cp really need to be required?  flu? hpv? Can't there be "required" and "recommended," and still exemptions? Why can't we get separate MMR anymore? Maybe some ppl would be inclined to vax for measles (especially since we have now created generations without natural immunity), but see mumps/rubella as less valuable and decline the whole mmr. Why do babies need to carry the burden of the general public? Where is the additional/ "real" vaccine safety/efficacy research in regards to common concerns - ex. aluminum or the cumulative schedule? ... Even the most pro-vax probably can admit that all vpd are not equal... it seems like forcing people into the vax schedule as is (or growing) = more parents doing alternative/non vaxing. If "we" believe in herd immunity - shouldn't we care more about measles than cp, and not jepordize that potential selective vaxer turning into non-vaxer?

 

(...and before anyone brings it up... there are federal programs to get free/cheap vaccines to under/un-insured children, it is not just a matter of states needing to require things to force insurance companies to cover (...and it should be pointed out pharm gets paid a lot less by CDC for those federally funded vax than by private insurance). 

 

Unfortunately it just seems the whole system is built to gaurantee pharma the most profit and least responsibility. I don't know if that can really change until it becomes too politically inconvenient, and with all the fear mongering/propaganda/bad info from mainstream... I'm not sure if that will ever really happen, even with more ppl questioning vax. Maybe when they add another few vax to the schedule... maybe then there will be enough opposition? When 1/50 kids has autism and 1/3 learning disability? When increased vax reactions have more parents becoming vocal?

I think it is just cheaper/more convenient to mandate vax and portray the questioners as total nuts instead of doing anything semi-reasonable.

 

I have seen a few people mention that more states are trying to get philosophical exemptions - does anyone know how far along that is? just groups lobbying? or actual legislation being drafted?

 


 

Well said. So true! My DS would have long gotten the measles shot if available here. LONG. But I'm the kind of parent you talk about, my choices are taken from me and I am forced into semi-hiding. If, yes IF, ACIP, the CDC and so on were so concerned about measles they would have never encouraged Merck to cease production. I now have to travel to Europe and get the shot during a vacation and have to wait another year before I can do so (DD is way too young imho for vaccines, and they need to get it at the same time for shedding reasons). If I was allowed to pick and choose as in most EU countries, they would get more shots.

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#21 of 28 Old 03-05-2012, 01:15 PM
 
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Looks like VT just lost the philisophical exemption - this is a tradegy and scary to me. Our personal freedoms and rights are being stripped away. Makes me so angry.....

 

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/article/20120302/NEWS03/203020305/1095/Vermont-Senate-endorses-change-immunization-exemptions

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angry.gif I wonder what happens next school year when a whole ton of parents "find religion?" I wonder if they will have additional problems.

 

This is very scary, and should be to more people... because after vaccines... what is next?

Propaganda machine has so many people riled up into believing that all vpds are such a clear and present danger to general public that we must ignore issues of individual choice and bodily autonomy. (yes, religious exemption is still available, but the state is essentially saying exemption should only be available for medical reason or if you are religious fundamentalist, parents are not allowed to have other concerns. Some people have issues with lying/exaggerating about their *religion* or lack of).

 

 
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I feel that if "we" were really concerned with public health (and not pharma finances), certain vaxes would be prioritized and more concessions would be made for sel/del vaxers... different types of exemptions could exist so that parents with partially vaxed kids don't have to hide vax record and make them look like non-vaxers for religious exemption. Every state should have medical, religious, and philo exemptions. Does cp really need to be required?  flu? hpv? Can't there be "required" and "recommended," and still exemptions? Why can't we get separate MMR anymore? Maybe some ppl would be inclined to vax for measles (especially since we have now created generations without natural immunity), but see mumps/rubella as less valuable and decline the whole mmr. Why do babies need to carry the burden of the general public? Where is the additional/ "real" vaccine safety/efficacy research in regards to common concerns - ex. aluminum or the cumulative schedule? ... Even the most pro-vax probably can admit that all vpd are not equal... it seems like forcing people into the vax schedule as is (or growing) = more parents doing alternative/non vaxing. If "we" believe in herd immunity - shouldn't we care more about measles than cp, and not jepordize that potential selective vaxer turning into non-vaxer?

 

I couldn't agree more!  It drives me batty when I read a propaganda piece in a newspaper, (and I swear it's the same article every time, maybe with a lazy journalist changing a word or two) in which some "alarmed" public health official preaches about how today's parents should get their kids fully "immunized" because they don't understand what it was like when polio was around.  Really?  Polio?  We're going to equate every single vaccine and related disease with polio???  Think fast: When was the last time all of the children in your neighborhood were quarantined

because of a Hep B outbreak?  Really disingenuous comparison. 

 

As to your question about legislation, here is a list of pending vaccine-related legislation in different states: http://nvicadvocacy.org/members/Home.aspx  I recommend registering for these alerts. btw. thumb.gif

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we have to rememeber that this just for public school entrance..government run schools, makes sense that they would have government run vaccination rules.  Not saying it's fair or right, but I do believe we will always have the right over our own bodies, and we will always have the right to homeschool if we do not agree with public school rules..if we ever lose these rights, I will move. 


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#25 of 28 Old 03-12-2012, 08:20 AM
 
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In some states when you homeschool the vaccine laws apply as well so there you go. Also I think it is important to understand that homeschooling is a luxury that is not afforded by many many people - myself included. We are a double income family - this is by necessity, not choice and I couldn't stop working and homeschool my child if I wanted to. We simply could not survive on 1 income.

 

 I used to think pretty much what you just said, but I have seen just in the last 4 years since my son was born, how hot this topic has become. I think it's going to get alot worse before it gets any better. Maybe Ive just become cynical??

 

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we have to rememeber that this just for public school entrance..government run schools, makes sense that they would have government run vaccination rules.  Not saying it's fair or right, but I do believe we will always have the right over our own bodies, and we will always have the right to homeschool if we do not agree with public school rules..if we ever lose these rights, I will move. 



 


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#26 of 28 Old 03-12-2012, 09:31 AM
 
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we have to rememeber that this just for public school entrance..government run schools, makes sense that they would have government run vaccination rules. 


In every state, school vaccination laws apply to both public and private schools, and in many states, home schools as well.

 

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can you link to proof of this?  I don't doubt it I just want to see it.  I was under the impression that private & homeschools could decide.  
 

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Originally Posted by ma2two View Post


In every state, school vaccination laws apply to both public and private schools, and in many states, home schools as well.

 



 


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#28 of 28 Old 03-15-2012, 01:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lovebeingamomma View Post

can you link to proof of this?  I don't doubt it I just want to see it.  I was under the impression that private & homeschools could decide.  
 



 



 You have to read the laws of the individual state. It is in the wording how they define "school". In some states it includes private and homeschooled, in some it does not. Each state is different. I am pretty sure most if not all states language includes private school (meaning elementary on up so thus often does not include preschool and daycare centers) However some states have a section that addresses prechool and daycare separately and I think most of the time if private school is included in the definition so is preschool and daycares.


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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