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#121 of 586 Old 04-21-2012, 06:42 PM
 
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There is the Vaccine Safety Datalink project http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_Safety_Datalink

 

The whole Simpsonwood transcript is a meeting based off of this data in 2000, in regards to thimerosal.

 

I don't know how many of you have read it, or know about it, I posted links to it earlier in this thread, but I haven't really gone over it 100% yet still either, my 2 yr doesn't really think my time is best spent on reading about vax... and maybe it is too conspiracy theory thing...

 

...well anyway, I found this interesting thing earlier today, and disclaimer - i know nothing about the blog that it was published on, but graph 3 a little more than halfway in, may be of interest to this convo. It is some of the data from the Simpsonwood meeting, but looks like it's a draft.

 

http://www.autismhelpforyou.com/EXPERT%20PAPER%20-%20Thimerosal%20VSD%20study001%20-%20Internet%20File.pdf

 

I don't know if any are inclined, I don't really have time to go over this 100% right now either...

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#122 of 586 Old 04-21-2012, 08:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Kathymuggle, didn't the Denmark study look at thimerosal, not the MMR? Or was there more than one "Denmark study?"

And according to www.14studies.com, 2 of the 7 researchers in that study were employed by Statens Serum Institute, Denmark's largest pharmaceutical manufacturer. One researcher, Poul Thorsen, was later indicted for embezzling $2 million in autism research funds, and is also accused of violating his contract with Aarhus University, for working for Emory/CDC simultaneously.

This page http://14studies.com/HG_2_details.html explains some pretty serious problems with the study.

This link http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/scandal-exposed-in-major-study-of-autism-and-mercury-132519518.html discusses an email from one of the study' authors, to the CDC, obtained through the FOA, stating that, contrary to the published results of the study, autism rates in Denmark declined after thimerosal-preserved vaccines were taken off the market.
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#123 of 586 Old 04-22-2012, 07:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeckyBird View Post

I have an idea for a study. An animal study, using whatever animal is best (mice?)

 

Have 2 groups:

Group #1, completely unvaccinated. No placebo given (since placebos usually contain adjuvants and toxins, which may still cause harm and interfere with the study.) We don't want anything injected into these animals.

 

Group#2, completely vaccinated, with every vaccine given according to the CDC schedule. All of them. Not all at once, of course--somehow, figure out what an equivalent schedule would be for the mice. Since mice grow quickly, it should not take very long to see the results of the overwhelming vaccine schedule.

 

Everything else should remain the same for both groups--the same diet, climate, water, bedding, etc.

Compare group #1 with group #2 throughout every round of vaccines.

                                                                                                                                                                                            

Who should perform this experiment? That's a good question, and the most difficult one to answer. We cannot agree on who is the most trustworthy! Maybe 2 opposing groups, working together to keep each other honest!

 

I'm stressing the importance of a study of the vaccine schedule--not just one single injection with one single vaccine. Since children are expected to receive the full schedule, we should study the combination of vaccines given according to the schedule. This is where science can be helpful, lol. A true scientific experiment is needed. Does anybody disagree with this? Wouldn't those of you who vaccinate care to see a study of the schedule?

 

I would love to see a study like this. Unfortunately, when you hear about a placebo in a vaccine study, the placebo usually contains adjuvants. That's not what we want, since most of us believe the adjuvants are harmful. If there has been an animal study like the one I described, using NO placebo injection and a FULLY equivalent vaccine schedule, please let me know.

 

P.S. I apologize to those of you disagree with animal testing.

 

This has sort of been done with dogs, Great Danes and Beagles but not to the same rigorous controls you have recommended nor was it very extensive, but interesting results, very single vaccinated dog had auto antibodies, the unvaxed ones did not.

 

Summary: The Hayward Study.

 

ETA: here is the full study.

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#124 of 586 Old 04-22-2012, 09:01 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

Kathymuggle, didn't the Denmark study look at thimerosal, not the MMR? Or was there more than one "Denmark study?"
 

 

We are talking about the same study.  The link I had spoke of used MMR ( probably as it was the vehicle through which thimersol was injected) - but a little digging showed the original title was specifically about thimersol.

 

I did a little more digging on critiques of the study - here is a one:

 

http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/03/first-fraud-dr-poul-thorsen-and-the-original-danish-study.html

 

Yes, it is an alternative source - but that does not mean it is not worth a read if you are researching the topic.  You might just need to verify what it says with other sources.

 

I thought some of the comments underneath were interesting as well.

 

 

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#125 of 586 Old 04-22-2012, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

 

 

We are talking about the same study.  The link I had spoke of used MMR ( probably as it was the vehicle through which thimersol was injected) - but a little digging showed the original title was specifically about thimersol.

 

I did a little more digging on critiques of the study - here is a one:

 

http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/03/first-fraud-dr-poul-thorsen-and-the-original-danish-study.html

 

Yes, it is an alternative source - but that does not mean it is not worth a read if you are researching the topic.  You might just need to verify what it says with other sources.

 

I thought some of the comments underneath were interesting as well.

 

 

 

MMR, CAN'T be the vehicle through which thimerosal was injected, because the MMR (being a live-virus vaccine) has never contained thimerosal (it would kill the live virus).

 

This is confusing.

 

I like many of AgeofAutism's posts. I have no problem with alternative sources, as long as they don't use high-pressure tactics to try to get you to buy products (Mercola comes to mind--his marketing tactics are exactly the same as Big Pharma's, which practically negates the whole effect of his valid criticisms of Big Pharma).

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Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

 

 

MMR, CAN'T be the vehicle through which thimerosal was injected, because the MMR (being a live-virus vaccine) has never contained thimerosal (it would kill the live virus).

 

This is confusing.

 

 

 

I agree it is confusing.   This is where I got the idea the MMR and thimersol study were one and the same:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1124634/

 

Maybe there were 2 studies - one on MMR and one on thimersol?  Perhaps they used the same epidemiological data - but looked at thimersol and MMR separately (my suspicion)?

 

 

 

 

 

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#127 of 586 Old 04-22-2012, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
 
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There ARE 2 "Danish" studies!
 
kathymuggle, you're right--the comments on that page ARE very interesting.
 
One included this link:  http://www.bloomingtonalternative.com/articles/2010/03/07/10323  written about a year ago.
 
There is a reference to a SEPARATE Danish study that looked at autism and MMR (NOT thimerosal) http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa021134 Here is what Steven Higgs writes about it:

"One, a Danish study published in the New England Journal of Medicine in 2002, is often cited as the last word on the matter.

The Danish study compared autism rates in immunized and unimmunized children between 1991 and 1998, Landrigan wrote in his study. It found "no association between age at immunization or season at immunization and rate of autism."

Handley, however, said in an e-mail that the study used the termunimmunized to mean children who did not receive the MMR. All of the children had been inoculated against other diseases. And, he and others point out, the Danes removed thimerosal from their vaccines in 1992.

Citing the Danish study is, as many in the autism community have argued, comparing apples to pears."

We've actually seen this over and over again, where researchers refer to children who are missing ONE vaccine as "unimmunized," even if they have received 30 other immunization!  I understand it's for the purposes of that particular study, but the result is that the published result compares "unimmunized children" to "vaccinated children," and everyone is thus led to believe that the "unimmunized children" never received thimerosal or aluminum exposure, which is clearly not true.

I would also like to know the current autism rate in Denmark.  I could not find anything--??? 

 

 

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#128 of 586 Old 04-22-2012, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Kathymuggle, I went to your link.  

 

Holy heck.  yikes.gif  Look what jumped out at me:

 

"Lead author Dr Kreesten Meldgaard Madsen, an epidemiologist and expert on infectious diseases at the Danish Epidemiology Science Centre in Aarhus, told theBMJ that the study showed that the risk of autism was similar in children who were vaccinated and children who were not."

 

and 

 

"Almost all children were vaccinated before the age of 3 years"

 

Hello?  OUR KIDS GET THE MMR AT AGE 12 MONTHS!!!!!!!

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http://www.bolenreport.com/Mark%20Geier/critique_of_the_6_epidemiologica.htm

 

Lots of fun critiques on thimerasol and vaccines.

 

Here is a list of some countries and their autism rate (scroll down).  Denmark included.  Who nows what their diagnostic criteria for autism rates is, though.  Once again - an alternative site.   I am not sure of the date.  I know it is not a great link, but it might be a starting point for anyone interested.  There are citations at the bottom of the link. 

 

http://www.rescuepost.com/files/gr-autism_and_vaccines_world_special_report1.pdf

 

So much information/misinformation, opinion,  etc, everywhere…..dizzy.gif

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So, let me get this straight. As of 2009, the autism rate in Denmark was one in 2200 children? And the US rate the same year was 1 in 150 children? And they saw declining rates of autism after they removed thimerosal-containing vaccines? And they had 12 mandatory vaccines for under-5-year-olds in 2009, while the US had 36? Wow.
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#131 of 586 Old 04-22-2012, 05:03 PM
 
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      Quote:

Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

So much information/misinformation, opinion,  etc, everywhere…..dizzy.gif

 

Now that's something I think everyone can agree on.  lol.gif

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#132 of 586 Old 04-22-2012, 07:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

So, let me get this straight. As of 2009, the autism rate in Denmark was one in 2200 children? And the US rate the same year was 1 in 150 children? And they saw declining rates of autism after they removed thimerosal-containing vaccines? And they had 12 mandatory vaccines for under-5-year-olds in 2009, while the US had 36? Wow.

 


Taximom, it's not related. It must be for some other reason--anything except difference in vaccine schedule. Let's not even pay attention to the difference in schedule, ok?

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#134 of 586 Old 04-22-2012, 07:59 PM
 
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Thanks for the article Emmy. I keep forgetting Helen Ratajczak's name, so I bookmarked the link.

 

Science, science, science......some people think you are "anti-science" if you dislike vaccines. Well, here's the opinion of a former senior scientist at a pharmaceutical firm. Quote from article,

 

From her peer reviewed study: "Documented causes of autism include genetic mutations and/or deletions, viral infections, and encephalitis following vaccination. Therefore, autism is the result of genetic defects and/or inflammation of the brain. The inflammation could be caused by a defective placenta, immature blood-brain barrier, the immune response of the mother to infection while pregnant, a premature birth, encephalitis in the child after birth, or a toxic environment."

 

Vaccines might be one possible cause, as we have said from the beginning.


 
 
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#135 of 586 Old 04-22-2012, 10:06 PM
 
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Danish children still get quite a few vaccines and many at time very early in life, so if they have a really low autism rate, I don't think that really indicates vaccines cause autism. Their current schedule for young children is:

 

DTaP, Hib, IPV, and PCV at 3,5, and 12 months

MMR at 15 months and 4 years

IPV and dTaP at 5 years

 

After looking at them till I was cross-eyed, I haven't been able to find any pattern with vaccine rates and autism rates. It all seems kind of random. For example, according to the Generation Rescue data from 2009, Japan had 11 vaccines and a 1 in 475 rate of autism while Denmark had 12 vaccines and a 1 in 2200 rate of autism. And the UK has a similar autism rate, 1 in 100, to the US yet do significantly fewer vaccines. I counted 20. If there is a link, I don't think it's apparent from comparing rates. I think, at least in part, diagnostic differences as well as data collection issues account for the large variation in autism rates. 

 

Here are a of couple of interesting papers and articles about autism rates and diagnosis in the EU:

 

Some elements about the prevalence of Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) in the European Union (this one just happens to have a section about the increase in diagnosis in the US and discusses The IDEA issue I mentioned way back)

 

European Autism Information System (EAIS) Report on the ‘Autism Spectrum Disorders Prevalence Data and Accessibility to Services’ Questionnaire (Q-EAIS)

 

France's Autism Treatment "Shame" (offers some insight into how cultural perspective can affect diagnosis and treatment)

 

 

edited for numerous typos and messiness because I'm too sleepy to be posting...goodnight

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I don't want to get to OT with the what causes autism discussion but I just wanted to mention that this article states that studies have found children born in March have a higher rate of autism, but a newer and larger study indicates that children conceived in the winter months have a higher risk with March being the highest. I made reference to it in my original post. There are theories about Vitamin D deficiency early in pregnancy but also questions about other factors like infections during winter and allergies during spring.

 

http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/publish/news/injuryprevention/5250

 

edited to remove unnecessary opinion

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here is another one - this time on anti-depressants:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/health/research/05autism.html

 

I know it is a little OT - but I suspect those interested in researching the vaccine/autism connection might also be interested in other possible environmental factors for autism.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/health/research/05autism.html

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Originally Posted by AbbyGrant View Post

Danish children still get quite a few vaccines and many at time very early in life, so if they have a really low autism rate, I don't think that really indicates vaccines cause autism. Their current schedule for young children is:

 

DTaP, Hib, IPV, and PCV at 3,5, and 12 months

MMR at 15 months and 4 years

IPV and dTaP at 5 years

 

 

edited for numerous typos and messiness because I'm too sleepy to be posting...goodnight

 

I don't agree. Compared to the US schedule, Danish children get FAR fewer vaccines (US gives literally 3 times as many vaccines to children 5 and under), and they get them significantly later (beginning at 3 months rather than at birth--that is significantly later in terms of body weight, brain development, digestive system development, and immune system development). In addition, they do not get the hepatitis B vaccine, which is given at birth to US babies, and which IS linked with autism in at least one study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21058170)

 

Doesn't this indicate that vaccines may indeed play a significant role in the high autism rate in the US?

 

I also think it makes a significant difference which vaccines are given, and what is in them, not just how many. We are told that autism rates continued to rise when the MMR was removed from the Japanese schedule, but we weren't told what OTHER vaccines were added to the schedule at the same time.

 

http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/japvaxautism/  ("Japanese and British Data Show Vaccines Cause Autism")

 

"The paper shows, when corrected with the missing data, Autistic Spectrum Disorder numbers increased and decreased in direct proportion to the total number of children vaccinated.We see here not just evidence of dechallenges and rechallengesbut a “dose-response” relationship on a population level.

 

A dose-response relationship on a population level is rare if not unprecedented.  The close numerical correspondence seen here is usually not found. This is conclusive evidence of a causal association."

 

Do you think there is a difference in meaning between "vaccines cause autism" and "vaccines trigger autism in a significant subgroup?"

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#140 of 586 Old 04-23-2012, 07:37 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

here is another one - this time on anti-depressants:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/health/research/05autism.html

 

I know it is a little OT - but I suspect those interested in researching the vaccine/autism connection might also be interested in other possible environmental factors for autism.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/health/research/05autism.html

 

I've also read that some think that there is a strong link between the use of pitocin in labor and autism, but the only study I found doesn't seem to support that: http://www.springerlink.com/index/L164107P23276740.pdf

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double post  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#142 of 586 Old 04-23-2012, 08:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

 

 

 

Do you think there is a difference in meaning between "vaccines cause autism" and "vaccines trigger autism in a significant subgroup?"

 

I think there is a huge difference.

 

Vaccines do not cause autism in most people.  Period.  Lots of people get vaccines without developing autism or autistic-like tendencies.  It is not a case of "take a and get b."  

 

Do I believe vaccines (broad terms - be it an additive, the schedule, or the number of vaccines) may be one piece of the puzzle in environmental causes in genetically susceptible individuals?  Yup.  Could I be wrong?  Sure.  Many, many parents believe vaccines play a role in their child's autism - more I think than is coincidence or parents re-arranging timelines in their heads to suit a hypothesis.  The vaccine community has not taken parents seriously with regards to this issue.  It is quite patronising.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I have a hard one taking it seriously because there's just so much research to the contrary. You could just as easily say eating vegetables causes autism. There's not even any theoretical science to suggest either one.
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       Quote:

Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

I don't agree. Compared to the US schedule, Danish children get FAR fewer vaccines (US gives literally 3 times as many vaccines to children 5 and under), and they get them significantly later (beginning at 3 months rather than at birth--that is significantly later in terms of body weight, brain development, digestive system development, and immune system development). In addition, they do not get the hepatitis B vaccine, which is given at birth to US babies, and which IS linked with autism in at least one study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21058170)

 

Doesn't this indicate that vaccines may indeed play a significant role in the high autism rate in the US?

 

No, not to me.  Sorry.  I'm not saying it's impossible there is a link just that these types of comparisons are pretty useless and indicate nothing to me. Comparing the autism rates is not comparing apples to apples.  There is huge variation in how it's diagnosed and how data is collected (the links I provided give some insight into this). Also, Denmark added PCV sometime between 2006 and 2008 (I can't tell exactly when) plus they do dTaP at 5 which I think was not counted by Generation Rescue for whatever reason and they give Hep B to at risk groups so they are up to 16 or possibly 17. Plus other European countires do give Hep B routinely at birth now yet have lower autism rates.  And I'll point out again that Japan had 1 in 475 when Denmark had 1 in 2200 even though they had 11 versus 12  vaccines.  And I'm not sure where the 36 in the US came from as I could only come up with 33 (but I admit my math skills might be off) and that's if a child received the flu shot every year. I'm not even sure why the flu shot was considered "mandatory" as it seems to be one many people can and do skip, but since it's on the schedule I'll let it go.  And according to the survey I linked earlier, only 62.8% of children in the US age 19 to 35 months were fully vaccinated (from data collected from 1995 and 2001). I admit this is sheer speculation, bit I suspect that the vaccination rates would be higher in a country like Denmark given their health care model and their demographics.  The survey has some clues why I think that.  So,all that to say, I don't think there is probably that huge of a difference in the amount of shots very young children are getting in Denmark and the US yet according the GR data, the autism rate is enormously different.  The difference in vaccines doesn't add up to the difference in autism rates. Also, less and less people are vaccinating on schedule, yet the autism rate keeps rising.

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It's not even a done deal that our autism rate actually is rising that quickly. Certainly the number of children diagnosed has risen, but that is largely due to an improved (and expanded) definition of what autism is and better diagnosis as a result of that expanded definition and greater parental awareness (guess what got really popular in the 90s, the Internet!)
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       Quote:

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

It's not even a done deal that our autism rate actually is rising that quickly. Certainly the number of children diagnosed has risen, but that is largely due to an improved (and expanded) definition of what autism is and better diagnosis as a result of that expanded definition and greater parental awareness (guess what got really popular in the 90s, the Internet!)

 

Oh, I agree.  By rate, I meant those diagnosed not the actual incidence. And you just came up with a new one. The internet causes autism!

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Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

It's not even a done deal that our autism rate actually is rising that quickly. Certainly the number of children diagnosed has risen, but that is largely due to an improved (and expanded) definition of what autism is and better diagnosis as a result of that expanded definition and greater parental awareness (guess what got really popular in the 90s, the Internet!)

 

I think that argument can be made with regards to Aspergers.  People who used to be written off as "quirky" are now given the label of Aspergers. It is a case of more diagnosis, not more cases.  I am not so sure that is the case with more classical or moderate-severe autism - whose rates are increasing as well.  Classical autism would have been diagnosed in any era.  

 

Anecdotally, I remember no kids from my youth who had autism - I now know several.  I don't think it is just heightened awareness on my part - because I do remember kids with other disorders.  I am 40, for what is it worth.

 

 

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#148 of 586 Old 04-23-2012, 09:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AbbyGrant View Post

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Oh, I agree.  By rate, I meant those diagnosed not the actual incidence. And you just came up with a new one. The internet causes autism!

 

Except children are diagnosed long before they become addicted to WoW and internet forums winky.gif

 

(I hope a little levity is OK).

 

Seriously, though, just because there are numerous theories on environmental causes does not mean we should throw up our hands and stop looking.  Our children and families deserve better.

 

 

 

 

 

kathy

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#149 of 586 Old 04-23-2012, 09:41 AM
 
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There is no such thing as "classical autism," it is a spectrum disorder and people with autism fall all along the spectrum. Aspergers is actually a type of autism, so people diagnosed with it would "count" in statistics about autism.

The diagnosis criteria for autism were expanded pretty drastically in 1994, so yes, the definition and diagnosis absolutely have changed and people are diagnosed now that wouldn't have been before, plus there is a lot more parental awareness. Not to mention there's more funding attached to serve kids with autism so schools have more of an incentive to get kids diagnosed. A lot of the data just doesn't support this huge increase, either.
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#150 of 586 Old 04-23-2012, 09:42 AM
 
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My reference to the Internet was in terms of parent education and advocacy. Parents are better equipped than ever to recognize autism in their own kids and push to get a diagnosis.
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