Vaccine Safety Curriculum for Medical Residents - American Academy of Pediatrics - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 247 Old 05-02-2012, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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What a joke!

 

http://therefusers.com/refusers-newsroom/vaccine-safety-curriculum-for-medical-residents-american-academy-of-pediatrics/


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#2 of 247 Old 05-02-2012, 04:48 PM
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That's not really a training guide about vaccine safety.  It's a training guide about communicating with concerned parents about an important public health initiative.  Doctors undergo a lot of training about effective patient communication at a number of points in their education.  The information included in this training is consistent with the published research.  

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#3 of 247 Old 05-02-2012, 05:40 PM
 
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I don't have time or energy to even start on this one. I hope it is a joke, but I doubt it, or not far from reality anyway.

 

People, if your dr. is a condescending $*#@&*%$ who you think has stock lines to "challenge" you instead of respecting your concerns or decision, find a new dr. You pay them, they work for you. 

 

(NO, I am not suggesting that drs do anything patient wants, before anyone brings that up. And plenty of pedis are exercising their right to fire their patients over vax compliance too. I don't think dr. patient relationships should continue where one or both sides have absolutely no respect for the other). 

 

On a side note, I wonder if pedis from older generation are more likely to be ok with sel/del/non vaxing. They remember prior schedules, have probably seen some reactions, aren't fresh out of med school, and have probably eaten humble pie a few times. 

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#4 of 247 Old 05-02-2012, 05:42 PM
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They also remember pre-vax outbreaks.  

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They also remember pre-vax outbreaks.  

 

yeah, and that argument can go both ways........ chicken pox.

 

Or those accounts from drs. pre-mmr who asserted those vpds are well tolerated by healthy children (and back in the days moms had antibodies to pass along to infants)...

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1919891/pdf/pubhealthreporig00027-0069.pdf

 

Quote:
(Measles)
Complications are infrequent, and, with adequate medical care, fatality is rare.

 

I won't even bring up Dr. Mendelsohn again. 

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#6 of 247 Old 05-02-2012, 08:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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They also remember pre-vax outbreaks.  

 

So do I, and no one was afraid of measles. Revisionist history at its finest. 


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#7 of 247 Old 05-02-2012, 09:45 PM
 
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That's not really a training guide about vaccine safety.  It's a training guide about communicating with concerned parents about an important public health initiative.  Doctors undergo a lot of training about effective patient communication at a number of points in their education.  The information included in this training is consistent with the published research.  

It's too bad pediatricians don't undergo a lot of training on how to recognize a vaccine reaction.

Looks like time is instead spent teaching doctors that intelligent, well-educated parents who research vaccines are conspiracy theorists who need "special handling."

Too many of us have had the horrifying experience where our children had severe adverse reactions to vaccines that initially went unrecognized by medical personnel. We were treated like we were crazy and/or stupid, while our children suffered, all because the doctors and nurses had been taught that such reactions were not possible.
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#8 of 247 Old 05-03-2012, 03:24 AM
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Historically, measles has a good record of terrifying parents.
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#9 of 247 Old 05-03-2012, 04:32 AM
 
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Historically, measles has a good record of terrifying parents.

That's just not true.

Historically, measles has been considered a routine childhood disease--annoying, uncomfortable, and contagious, but with only rare complications, and those in children with underlying health problems.

Before vaccination, parents weren't terrified of it--they expected it. It was common practice to put children to bed with an infected sibling so they would get it and be done with it, according to many, including author and historian John Fitzgerald, author of "The Great Brain" children's books.
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#10 of 247 Old 05-03-2012, 04:55 AM
 
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Measles is one of the leading causes of death of children worldwide. Almost 140,000 children die a year from the measles. Yes, those are mostly in developing countries where they don't have access to the vaccine or proper supportive care, but I don't think it's fair to say that measles isn't a serious illness. Before we had the vaccine here there were 450 or so deaths and around 4,000 cases of encephalitis a year.
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#11 of 247 Old 05-03-2012, 05:36 AM
 
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Before we had the vaccine here there were 450 or so deaths and around 4,000 cases of encephalitis a year.

 

You are right, the numbers are here for the deaths, pages 3 and 4, (also interesting to see the other #s and vpds)

 

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/G/cases&deaths.pdf

 

about 400,000-700,000 cases per year and 300-600 deaths per year, (measles in 1950s and 60s)

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Never mind, need to practice my careful reading this morning smile.gif
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#13 of 247 Old 05-03-2012, 06:03 AM
 
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Historically, measles has a good record of terrifying parents.

That's just not true.

Historically, measles has been considered a routine childhood disease--annoying, uncomfortable, and contagious, but with only rare complications, and those in children with underlying health problems.

Before vaccination, parents weren't terrified of it--they expected it. It was common practice to put children to bed with an infected sibling so they would get it and be done with it, according to many, including author and historian John Fitzgerald, author of "The Great Brain" children's books.

 

And now vaxes are routine, annoying, slightly uncomfortable, and only cause problems in those with underlying health problems? Your point?

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#14 of 247 Old 05-03-2012, 06:18 AM
 
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And now vaxes are routine, annoying, slightly uncomfortable, and only cause problems in those with underlying health problems? Your point?

 

Well, two points would be that 1. natural infection gives lifetime immunity, vax no, and 2. natural infection improves ability of mother to pass measles antibodies to her baby (via placenta and breastmilk) which protects them in the early months of life, vaxed moms not so much. 

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/503025.stm

 

This article also mentions Measles parties in UK, which I have also heard about being more common in Germany and Austria.

 

http://www.pediatricsdigest.mobi/content/104/5/e59.full

 

Quote:
Women born in the United States after measles vaccine licensure in 1963 transfer less measles antibody to their infants than do older women. This may result in increased susceptibility to measles among infants.
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#15 of 247 Old 05-03-2012, 06:21 AM
 
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Natural immunity also fades with time. Herd immunity is also effective at protecting an unvaccinated infant, and without the risks associated with the measles.

Vaxxed moms still pass on antibodies, although not as much.
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#16 of 247 Old 05-03-2012, 06:27 AM
 
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The first thing I posted, this

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1919891/pdf/pubhealthreporig00027-0069.pdf

 

from 1967? puts herd immunity level at 55%. I guess that's why they thought they could eradicate measles in a year. Nowadays I believe they think we need at least low 90s for herd immunity.

 

I wonder how many adults who received MMR as kids no longer have immunity. 

 

I wonder what will happen when baby boomer generation is out of the picture, the last generation with significant natural immunity.

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#17 of 247 Old 05-03-2012, 06:31 AM
 
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I don't know, because to my knowledge mmr is not one they've had a problem with fading overtime (like pertussis, for example.). You could just as easily ask how many adults that had measles have had their immunity fade, since natural immunity also fades, though ore slowly.

Rubella can be caught more than once, so even natural immunity isn't perfect.
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I'm guessing that more boosters will need to be added after that chunk of population with natural immunity is no longer around. There are a lot of vaxed women who have lost immunity to rubella and find out during pregnancy. I haven't seen any numbers for measles, but I'm guessing there are quite a few adults who had MMRs as kids and it has worn off. 

 

Paul Offit says:

 

Quote:
 natural infection with 'systemic' viruses such as measles, mumps, rubella, or varicella often confers life-long protection against mild disease associated with reinfection.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11444023?dopt=Abstract

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You can get rubella more than once, the vaccine isn't perfect (no vaccine is) and natural infection does not necessarily prevent you from getting it again.

There is no evidence that measles or mumps immunity fades significantly over time. Mir you have some data on fading titers I'd love to see it, but otherwise guessing is exactly what you're doing.
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Natural infection OFTEN offers lifelong protection against MILD disease. It's certainly true that natural infection provokes a much stronger response from the immune system (since you actually get sick,) resulting in higher titer levels, but that natural immunity still fades over time. That's why people who had chicken pox get shingles. Their natural immunity fades and it allows the virus to reactivate.

Vaccine based immunity does fade more quickly (again, since you don't actually have to get sick in the first place this seems like a fair trade off, to me), but as vaccination programs effectively eliminate more diseases that becomes less of an issue.
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#21 of 247 Old 05-03-2012, 07:40 AM
 
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I don't know what "a lot" of pregnant women means, exactly, but according to the pink book the rubella vaccine is 95% effective for at least 15 years and immunity is believed to be lifelong.

It also says that second rubella infections are "very rare," I swear I recently read they weren't that rare but maybe I'm mistaken.
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#22 of 247 Old 05-03-2012, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Historically, measles has a good record of terrifying parents.

 

You are quoting revisionist post-vaccine propaganda again.

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That's just not true.
Historically, measles has been considered a routine childhood disease--annoying, uncomfortable, and contagious, but with only rare complications, and those in children with underlying health problems.
Before vaccination, parents weren't terrified of it--they expected it. It was common practice to put children to bed with an infected sibling so they would get it and be done with it, according to many, including author and historian John Fitzgerald, author of "The Great Brain" children's books.

 

This, I was brought up in the UK and am old enough to not to have been vaccinated against measles, I can assure you that no one was afraid of measles in the 60s in Britain. My mother certainly would have been if there was a fear campaign running for this disease. 


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#23 of 247 Old 05-03-2012, 08:27 AM
 
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You can get rubella more than once, the vaccine isn't perfect (no vaccine is) and natural infection does not necessarily prevent you from getting it again.
There is no evidence that measles or mumps immunity fades significantly over time. Mir you have some data on fading titers I'd love to see it, but otherwise guessing is exactly what you're doing.

 

That's exactly why I specified "I'm guessing."

 

I believe Mr. Offit was stating here " natural infection with 'systemic' viruses such as measles, mumps, rubella, or varicella often confers life-long protection against mild disease associated with reinfection."

 

that not only do those vpds give lifelong immunity, if there is reinfection, it is mild.

 

I'm not the only one with that opinion about MMR immunity. Dr. Russel Blaylock:

http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2010/01/29/forced-vaccinations-government-and-the-public-interest/

 

 

Quote:

In the original description of herd immunity, the protection to the population at large occurred only if people contracted the infections naturally. The reason for this is that naturally-acquired immunity lasts for a lifetime. The vaccine proponents quickly latched onto this concept and applied it to vaccine-induced immunity. But, there was one major problem – vaccine-induced immunity lasted for only a relatively short period, from 2 to 10 years at most, and then this applies only to humoral immunity. This is why they began, silently, to suggest boosters for most vaccines, even the common childhood infections such as chickenpox, measles, mumps, and rubella.

 

 

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/154/16/1815

Quote:
The apparent paradox is that as measles immunization rates rise to high levels in a population, measles becomes a disease of immunized persons. Because of the failure rate of the vaccine and the unique transmissibility of the measles virus, the currently available measles vaccine, used in a single-dose strategy, is unlikely to completely eliminate measles. The longterm success of a two-dose strategy to eliminate measles remains to be determined.

 

I don't have numbers about adult women lacking rubella immunity, I have seen several posts here about women finding out in pregnancy and looking to vax themselves post partum for future pregnancies. 

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#24 of 247 Old 05-03-2012, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
 
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The first thing I posted, this

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1919891/pdf/pubhealthreporig00027-0069.pdf

 

from 1967? puts herd immunity level at 55%. I guess that's why they thought they could eradicate measles in a year. Nowadays I believe they think we need at least low 90s for herd immunity.

 

I wonder how many adults who received MMR as kids no longer have immunity. 

 

I wonder what will happen when baby boomer generation is out of the picture, the last generation with significant natural immunity.

 

The problem is immunity through the measure of antibodies is meaningless because it is bogus. Antibody response is merely an indication that the body has "wounds", wounds created from the adjuvants and other toxins in vaccination. I have pointed out before that no one has ever isolated, purified and categorized the measles virus (or any other human, animal or plant virus for that matter), so how does one measure immunity to a yet to be identified virus? Before anyone posts wiki pics of the measles virus, I will tell you now that they are fakes, none of them are of the actual measles virus, they are indeterminate cell particles. Ask the CDC for genuine EM photos of the isolated purified measles virus, you won't get it because they don't have such a thing.


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#25 of 247 Old 05-03-2012, 08:33 AM
 
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You are quoting revisionist post-vaccine propaganda again.

 

This, I was brought up in the UK and am old enough to not to have been vaccinated against measles, I can assure you that no one was afraid of measles in the 60s in Britain. My mother certainly would have been if there was a fear campaign running for this disease. 

And in the US 1969 - Brady Bunch season 1 episode 13

 

Peter, then Jan, then the rest of the Brady siblings become ill with the measles. During their recovery, they begin debating the abilities of male and female doctors.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0531101/

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#26 of 247 Old 05-03-2012, 08:52 AM
 
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We're back to a basic disagreement over the facts, so I'll just leave it at the statistics I posted earlier on measles deaths and complications. I disagree with the statement on antibodies being meaningless and I also disagree with the idea that there is a huge difference between natural and vaccine induced immunity, particularly as concerns mmr. I also think here immunity as a result of vaccines is as much an epidemiological fact as is possible to have.
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#27 of 247 Old 05-03-2012, 08:54 AM
 
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So I guess we're substituting anecdotal evidence about women who've posted they had to be reimmunized for the actual research that shows the mmr vaccine is long lasting, probably for life?
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#28 of 247 Old 05-03-2012, 08:55 AM
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I am persistently confused by the use of the Brady Bunch as a measure of disease risk.

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#29 of 247 Old 05-03-2012, 08:57 AM
 
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There is no booster suggested for mmr, there is a second dose to catch the people who didn't get immunity from the first dose. There's also no booster for chicken pox. I'm not sure where the person you're quoting gets the idea that there's some kind of secret strategy to boost people so they won't realize their immunity fades, and their statement about 2-10 years just flat contradicts research.

When there has been a situation where immunity fades significantly over time (pertussis) we have realized it and there hasn't been some kind of quiet push for boosters, there's been a major public education campaign to get the word out and encourage people to get their booster!
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#30 of 247 Old 05-03-2012, 09:01 AM
 
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I am persistently confused by the use of the Brady Bunch as a measure of disease risk.

 

Just a primary source of cultural perception of measles in 1969. smile.gif

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