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#1 of 83 Old 05-05-2012, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
 
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This is a spin off.  Posts 134 and 135 of this thread:  

 

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1352217/vaccine-safety-curriculum-for-medical-residents-american-academy-of-pediatrics/120.

 

What do you think of lying when it comes to vaccine issues?

 

Example:

 

Mother claims religious exemption to get her child into school without vaccinating - although their family is not religious, and religious issue played no or a minor role in the decision.

 

Medical doctor or school board (I have personal experience with that one) makes it seem like the child must be vaccinated to attend school - when that is not the case.  Let's assume this is not done out of ignorance, but a deliberate wording to try and get people to vaccinate. 

 

I can think of numerous other examples of lying or misrepresentation of facts.

 

What do you think?  Is lying ever justifiable in vaccine situations?  When?  

 

(now I am sure some people are going to come on and say it is justifiable, but only when my side does it, lol lol.gif)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#2 of 83 Old 05-05-2012, 12:40 PM
 
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As from the other post, Do all states allow exemptions from school entry requirements?

Answer: Some states only allow medical exemptions. A minority allow exemption based on personal belief.

This type of thing really makes me mad. I am not asking pedi what he thinks of vaccines, what are the risk/benefit, his view of the matter, how we should vax DC, etc. 
It is a question asking for simple fact answer, and there should be no subjective answer - Yes, all states have exemptions for school entry. 2 states only have medical exemption. All the rest have religious and some have religious and philosophical exemptions. It would be more helpful to truthfully report the exemption possibilities in the state the patient is in.

 

The answer provided here is full of agenda and is misleading. Nothing is "untrue" however. I would instantly leave a pedi who answered me like this. I would never trust him/her on anything again, especially vax/vpd related.

 

On the flip side, one "lie" I see around anti-vax stuff that drives me nuts is the claim that there are aborted fetal cells in vaccines. 

There are cell fragments, proteins and DNA from cell lines cultivated from aborted fetuses but no, there are no original cells from fetus. DNA is still that of the fetus though. Not making the distinction seems sloppy to me and going for shock value.

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#3 of 83 Old 05-05-2012, 12:49 PM
 
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If my only option to keep my kids in school and unvaccinated was to lie about religion, then I would strongly consider it.  I don't think there are many parents who wouldn't lie to keep their kids healthy as they see necessary. 

 

Religion doesn't even have to be about faith in God or a specific church sect.  Believing in one set of values from one faith is religion.  If a parent believes that their unvaccinated child is how nature intended him to be, that should be that parent's right, regardless of what faith they ascribe to.

 

Bodily integrity is not just about cutting.


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#4 of 83 Old 05-05-2012, 12:54 PM
 
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If my only option to keep my kids in school and unvaccinated was to lie about religion, then I would strongly consider it.  I don't think there are many parents who wouldn't lie to keep their kids healthy as they see necessary. 

 

Religion doesn't even have to be about faith in God or a specific church sect.  Believing in one set of values from one faith is religion.  If a parent believes that their unvaccinated child is how nature intended him to be, that should be that parent's right, regardless of what faith they ascribe to.

 

Bodily integrity is not just about cutting.

 

Yes! I am not a religious person. But something about the constant medical assumption that the human body is deeply flawed, incapable, or simply wrong offends me on a spiritual note.

For that reason I would not have a problem filing a religious exemption if need be. Maybe it is more appropriate to philosophical, but when that option doesn't exist?? vax, convert, or move??

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#5 of 83 Old 05-05-2012, 01:04 PM
 
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Yes! I am not a religious person. But something about the constant medical assumption that the human body is deeply flawed, incapable, or simply wrong offends me on a spiritual note.

For that reason I would not have a problem filing a religious exemption if need be. Maybe it is more appropriate to philosophical, but when that option doesn't exist?? vax, convert, or move??

 

I completely agree.  I live in California and my children have personal beliefs exemptions.  I think the distinction between philosophical and religious reasons are merely semantics, but the terms are used as roadblocks to getting any exemption.  Even with the personal beliefs exemption, I've had to talk to the nurse at my kids' school district and have her talk down to me and treat me like I'm an uneducated parent before I can sign the exemption (which frankly, I don't see how that's legal, given that it's my right to have a personal exemption, and her authority is pretty much insignificant in terms of my decision).

 

I've had to do this for both children, separately, and the 3 different schools they have been enrolled at, plus I get to look forward to doing it again next week when enrolling my son in his 3rd school in the district (1 for pre-k, 1 for k, and a different one for 1st grade since we recently moved elementary districts).  The nurse backs down a little when I tell her that our ped. has encouraged me not to continue vaxes after my son's reaction. (I do plan on asking him about getting a medical exemption.)


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#6 of 83 Old 05-05-2012, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post

If my only option to keep my kids in school and unvaccinated was to lie about religion, then I would strongly consider it.  I don't think there are many parents who wouldn't lie to keep their kids healthy as they see necessary. 

 

Religion doesn't even have to be about faith in God or a specific church sect.  Believing in one set of values from one faith is religion.  If a parent believes that their unvaccinated child is how nature intended him to be, that should be that parent's right, regardless of what faith they ascribe to.

 

Bodily integrity is not just about cutting.

 

I would probably lie if I had to.  Thankfully I live in a place where I can easily get a philosophical exemption.  Some places in Canada are even better - no exemption required!  (and the sky has not fallen in - nor do those places have higher amounts of VPDs AFAIK

 

I do not really have an issue with lying over unjust regulations (and I do consider it unjust).  

 

 

 

I suspect (and would love to hear from some pro-vaxxers on this) that the reason some in the medical community  words things like this:

 

"Do all states allow exemptions from school entry requirements?
Answer: Some states only allow medical exemptions. A minority allow exemption based on personal belief."

 

….is because they believe very firmly that vaccination is best for almost everyone, so giving slanted, half answers is acceptable.  

 

I do not think this is acceptable for this reason:

 

Even if the medical community believes vaccination is for the best, those beliefs do not supersede parental authority or informed consent.  How can a person make an informed decision if the threat of not being able to send their child to school looms over their head?

 

As per the religion thing - I sort of hear you.  There is a spiritual element to the more holistic model of healthcare I embrace.  None-the-less, if I were to quantify my reasons for not vaccinating, I know that spirituality plays a small role.  Statistics on VPDs versus vaccine side effects plays the biggest role.

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#7 of 83 Old 05-05-2012, 02:57 PM
 
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When your child's health, and perhaps life, is possibly in danger (such as when a pediatrican insists that a child with a previous vaccine reaction, or a child with a fever be vaccinated that day), I think a lot of parents would lie to save their child.

 

If you were Jewish, and a bunch of skin-head Neo-Nazis cornered you and your child and asked you were Jewish, wouldn't you lie?

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#8 of 83 Old 05-05-2012, 03:02 PM
 
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If you were Jewish, and a bunch of skin-head Neo-Nazis cornered you and your child and asked you were Jewish, wouldn't you lie?

This could very easily be an offensive comment to many practicing Jews & really has no place here.
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#9 of 83 Old 05-05-2012, 03:14 PM
 
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I just wanted to point out that I don't think that "answer" was for parents.  This was part of a "small group discussion" for residents. See page 6 for context.

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/65685830/Small-Group-Guide

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#10 of 83 Old 05-05-2012, 03:25 PM
 
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I just wanted to point out that I don't think that "answer" was for parents.  This was part of a "small group discussion" for residents. See page 6 for context.

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/65685830/Small-Group-Guide

Thanks, this document has a lay out that is a bit easier to understand than the link in the other thread, I see what you mean. 

 

However, there are still numerous "challenge the parent" lines I take issue with in a similar manner.

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#11 of 83 Old 05-05-2012, 03:41 PM
 
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This could very easily be an offensive comment to many practicing Jews & really has no place here.

Excuse me, but I AM a practicing Jew.

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#12 of 83 Old 05-06-2012, 12:50 AM
 
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Excuse me, but I AM a practicing Jew.

Fine, but that certainly Doesn't mean that you speak for an entire religion. I still find your statement offensive and inappropriate.
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#13 of 83 Old 05-06-2012, 04:54 AM
 
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My point is that when the safety of a child is threatened by the belief of others who wield power, most parents would feel they have no choice but to lie.

I gave an example of that situation. There was nothing offensive about that example. It's a situation that happened in Skokie, IL in the 1970's, which is not so long ago.
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#14 of 83 Old 05-06-2012, 05:12 AM
 
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Very few people should e claiming medical exemptions, Christian scientists, but I'm not sure who else.  Most people who claim them are lying.  You can view the doctors answer as misleading or you can view it as they left the religious exemptions off because they apply to very few people.

I would not lie about it, but I find lying abhorrent and wouldn't want to set that example for my kids.  Please don't think I'm saying anyone here is abhorrent, that's not at all what I mean I know you feel like you have very good reasons, it's just my personal belief.  

If I felt that strongly about not vaccinating I wouldn't vaccinate, either, but I would find a way to get my child in private school or homeschool.

I am a rather religious person, so maybe I'm bothered a little extra when I see friends who I know are atheists claiming religious exemptions, idk.

As a Christian, do not speaking for Jews, if someone cornered me and asked me if I was. Christian and said they'd shoot me if I was, I hope I would have the courage to say yes.  We have lots of biblical examples to teach us that is what's expected.
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#15 of 83 Old 05-06-2012, 05:48 AM
 
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Ok... I think this thread is on the brink of a pretty ugly turn, so I'm not going to further what I see happening.

 

Do private schools not need exemptions? I thought that was the same as public school? I believe there is legislation in CA which would require even homeschoolers to have exemptions?

 

Everytime I bring up that I feel there are not adequate exemption possibilities, especially for those who want to selectively vax - like skip cp or hpv... people state that there are adequate possibilities. I don't see how forcing a family to move and/or undergo possible financial hardship through loss of parental income to homeschool as a practical solution for parents who do not wish to vaccinate, or worse, just don't want to vaccinate for chicken pox!

This is not informed consent.

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#16 of 83 Old 05-06-2012, 05:58 AM
 
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They didn't leave religious exemptions off. That question and answer are just one point in a broader discussion. It's really hard to cut and paste from this document for some reason, but if you go to page 6, you can see that questions like "What are the school entry requirements in your state?," "Can parents avoid immunizations required for school entry on the basis of a religious exemption?," "Can parents avoid immunizations required for school entry on the basis of a personal belief exemption?" are part of the discussion. 

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/65685830/Small-Group-Guide

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#17 of 83 Old 05-06-2012, 06:16 AM
 
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Abby, I think you are right about this document, the formatting of the original link kinda messed with how I understood it.

 

I don't think it is outside of the realm of possibilities though, that a parents ask a pedi and be told they can only get an exemption if they belong to a religion against medical procedures like vaccination.

 

Religious exemptions are not widely understood, many people don't believe they could file one when indeed they can.

 

No shots = No school is a popular misconception.

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#18 of 83 Old 05-06-2012, 06:45 AM
 
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       Quote:

Originally Posted by slmommy View Post

 

I don't think it is outside of the realm of possibilities though, that a parents ask a pedi and be told they can only get an exemption if they belong to a religion against medical procedures like vaccination.

 

Religious exemptions are not widely understood, many people don't believe they could file one when indeed they can.

 

No shots = No school is a popular misconception.

 

Religious exemptions vary by area, so in some cases a doctor may not be wrong if they stated that. I've heard in NY, especially NYC, it's pretty difficult to get a religious exemption. Also, it's really outside the scope of being a doctor to have full knowledge of all possible school exemptions other than medical. I would not look to my pediatrician for information about that. Of course they shouldn't lie about it if they do know or give out inaccurate information.

 

edited to fix typo

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#19 of 83 Old 05-06-2012, 07:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AbbyGrant View Post

       Quote:

 

Religious exemptions vary by area, so in some cases a doctor may not be wrong if they stated that. I've heard in NY, especially NYC, it's pretty difficult to get a religious exemption. Also, it's really outside the scope of being a doctor to have full knowledge of all possible school exemptions other then medical. I would not look to my pediatrician for information about that. Of course they shouldn't lie about it if they do know or give out inaccurate information.

I think the above would be more likely that outright lying.  Also, I would find it more disturbing when a person lies while in a professional capacity.  The cornered-person analogy isn't a great parallel.  The better parallel would be someone in an official capacity asking a possibly damning question to someone who has come for assistance or because the law requires it.  I'm sure you can think of your own examples.

 

As an individual, and a mother, I would have no problem lying if I think the system is being unreasonable.  I jaywalk when there are no cars.  I refuse to pass conviction for laws I personally feel are unjust.  I have no problem with committing these technical infractions.  I *would* lie if I felt I had no better option.  In a professional capacity, I don't lie, wouldn't lie.  In those cases I represent something larger than myself, especially if I was in the position of a doctor or nurse on whom people rely.  If I disagreed with something, I might say that within context of the facts.

 

Agree or disagree with this distinction?

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#20 of 83 Old 05-06-2012, 07:19 AM
 
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I guess I consider financial hardship, etc, part of being a parent. If it was really important to me that my child learned about creationism only and not evolution, for example, I wouldn't expect the school to change to suit me, I would take it upon myself to homeschool or find a school that fit my needs. I don't think theres an expectation that public school works for everyone. 

I also expect public health policy to reflect what the bulk of mainstream science tells us, which is that vaccines are safe, effective, and help stop the spread of various diseases. If a school is faced with the choice of having a student body vaccinated with chicken pox so that a kid comes to school they only infect 4-5 others or the choice to NOT vaccinate, in which case half the students might be out for a week or more with pox, it seems like the more sound policy and education choice is clear. That is obviously not the same decision making process you go through as a parent, though.

I think private schools get to make their own decisions about vaccines, but I'm not really sure and it could certainly vary from state to state. 
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#21 of 83 Old 05-06-2012, 07:25 AM
 
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If my pediatrician insisted my child needed a vaccine in spite of a previous reaction and refused to sign a medical waiver I would switch pediatricians until I found one that would.  That is a sign of a bigger and more fundamental issue/disagreement, IMO, and I would not want that person treating y child for anything, including vaccines.
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#22 of 83 Old 05-06-2012, 09:43 AM
 
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If my pediatrician insisted my child needed a vaccine in spite of a previous reaction and refused to sign a medical waiver I would switch pediatricians until I found one that would.  That is a sign of a bigger and more fundamental issue/disagreement, IMO, and I would not want that person treating y child for anything, including vaccines.

You are correct that it is a sign of a bigger and more fundamental issue.  However, it can be extremely difficult for some people to FIND a pediatrician who is experienced enough with vaccine reactions to actually recognize one.

 

I was lucky enough that I did not need to switch pediatricians.

 

I know several people in the US who are not so lucky.  Their children have had vaccine reactions that their pediatricians were simply to ignorant to identify as such. They have had great difficulty finding pediatricians that will take their word for it, since the original pediatrician did not record the reaction.  And more and more pediatricians are adopting the policy of refusing to treat children unless they are fully caught up on vaccines.

 

As the OP brought up, the CDC/AAP position seems to be to bully the parent into complying with vaccines, whether or not they have a valid reason to request delaying or withholding vaccines.

 

Several of us have brought this subject up with you many times before, Abby.  When the pediatrician treating your child either doesn't observe the reaction with his/her own eyes, or whether (s)he doesn't believe that vaccines can cause such reactions, the result is that the parent is labeled unfairly, the child isn't treated appropriately, and a whole cascade of frightening, dangerous, and even life-threatening events can occur as a result.

 

For some people, the only recourse is to go for the religious exemption, because most of the time, they are therefore protected from the bullying ("sanctuary," if you will).  Some people feel that this is a lie; others feel that if they have a deeply held belief about the sanctity of the human body without unnecessary invasive "treatment," that is the equivalence of a religious belief.

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#23 of 83 Old 05-06-2012, 10:17 AM
 
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Is that really the case, though, that they believe in the sanctity of the human body without treatment?  So they forego Tylenol, and antibiotics, and dental work, etc?  Or they just don't like vaccines?  Sometimes I wonder how people who think doctors are just corrupt shills for the pharm industry can bring themselves to get any medical treatment, at all.

The people that I know the don't vaccinate don't fall into this category, anyway, they've never vaccinated.  I think people who've chosen not to continue vaccinating because of a reaction are the overwhelming minority, but I have never found any good data on it.  I sure you know lots, but you probably move in circles where people whose children have had reactions are over represented.  This hypothetical is a secondary issue to me, because I don't think it describes the bulk of people misusing religious exemptions, anyway.

Lying is lying.  There's always another way, although it might not be as easy or convenient.
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#24 of 83 Old 05-06-2012, 10:34 AM
 
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Is that really the case, though, that they believe in the sanctity of the human body without treatment?  So they forego Tylenol, and antibiotics, and dental work, etc?  Or they just don't like vaccines?  Sometimes I wonder how people who think doctors are just corrupt shills for the pharm industry can bring themselves to get any medical treatment, at all.
The people that I know the don't vaccinate don't fall into this category, anyway, they've never vaccinated.  I think people who've chosen not to continue vaccinating because of a reaction are the overwhelming minority, but I have never found any good data on it.  I sure you know lots, but you probably move in circles where people whose children have had reactions are over represented.  This hypothetical is a secondary issue to me, because I don't think it describes the bulk of people misusing religious exemptions, anyway.
Lying is lying.  There's always another way, although it might not be as easy or convenient.

(bolding above mine)

 

Did you deliberately misquote me?  I didn't say "the sanctity of the human body without treatment."  I said, "the sanctity of the human body without unnecessary invasive treatment."

 

If you believe "lying is lying," why would you deliberately change my words to suit your argument?

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#25 of 83 Old 05-06-2012, 10:44 AM
 
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I didn't intentionally change your words, I apologize if I misrepresented what you said.
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#26 of 83 Old 05-06-2012, 10:47 AM
 
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There are risks to all medical treatments.
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#27 of 83 Old 05-06-2012, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I think the above would be more likely that outright lying.  Also, I would find it more disturbing when a person lies while in a professional capacity.  The cornered-person analogy isn't a great parallel.  The better parallel would be someone in an official capacity asking a possibly damning question to someone who has come for assistance or because the law requires it.  I'm sure you can think of your own examples.

 

As an individual, and a mother, I would have no problem lying if I think the system is being unreasonable.  I jaywalk when there are no cars.  I refuse to pass conviction for laws I personally feel are unjust.  I have no problem with committing these technical infractions.  I *would* lie if I felt I had no better option.  In a professional capacity, I don't lie, wouldn't lie.  In those cases I represent something larger than myself, especially if I was in the position of a doctor or nurse on whom people rely.  If I disagreed with something, I might say that within context of the facts.

 

Agree or disagree with this distinction?

 

Very much agree!  I said something similar on the other thread.  

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No shots = No school is a popular misconception.

Yes.  

 

I will give an example other than the one I mentioned upthread (as that does seem to be open to interpretation)

 

I work in a library.  Within the last month a women came in and needed to photocopy her son immunisation record.  She had been sent a letter from the school board stating that if she did not supply proof of immunisation, her son could be suspended from school.  While they did not lie outright, the form was certainly misleading.  Her son would only have been suspended from school for lack of forms if there was a outbreak of a disease  (which the letter failed to mention).  Moreover, the letter did not tell the mother that exemptions were available.  

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#28 of 83 Old 05-06-2012, 01:03 PM
 
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There are risks to all medical treatments.

 

There are no other medical treatments universally forced on children to enter school, where the only other options are move, stop working and homeschool, and/or "lie." 

Or in the case of healthcare workers - undergo medical procedure or lose job and/or career change.

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#29 of 83 Old 05-06-2012, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post
 If a school is faced with the choice of having a student body vaccinated with chicken pox so that a kid comes to school they only infect 4-5 others or the choice to NOT vaccinate, in which case half the students might be out for a week or more with pox, it seems like the more sound policy and education choice is clear. That is obviously not the same decision making process you go through as a parent, though.
 

I think the logic in this is a little faulty.  Most people vaccinate because they want to.  I do not think vaccination rates would fall significantly if schools did not require exemptions.  

 

Canada is a great country to look to in this regard.  Canada has 3 provinces that require an exemption of some sort for school entry, and 7 that do not. 

 

I do not think there is a difference in VPD rates, or strong differences in immunisation rates, from province to province.  

 

I don't think the statistics support the need for exemptions, period.  

 

This is a suspicion at this point - I will see what kind of stats I can dig up.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

Is that really the case, though, that they believe in the sanctity of the human body without treatment?  So they forego Tylenol, and antibiotics, and dental work, etc?  Or they just don't like vaccines?  Sometimes I wonder how people who think doctors are just corrupt shills for the pharm industry can bring themselves to get any medical treatment, at all.
 

 

I was thinking about this when I was trying to decide if I would be lying if I claimed a religious exemptions.

 

I am not religious, but I can be spiritual.  I am a theist, I do not go to church, I do not belong to a specific religion.  I am pretty eclectic.

 

I do believe in a fairly wholistic approach to health care.  I have, however, been known to take an aspirin and my youngest was on antibiotics 2 months ago I have no qualms about either!  I do have qualms, though, with intervening with a person who is not sick.  Vaccines are the most handy example - I do think interfering in a healthy body when there is little threat of anything happening is not the way nature intended it to be!   Is that a spiritual thing?  I don't know.

 

I do know it would be very hard for another person to judge whether or not someone else's religious exemption was a lie or not. 

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