"Cocooning" not effective in preventing pertussis infection in infants - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 50 Old 05-10-2012, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Just to be clear, this was not a study. They didn't have a cocooned group and non cocooned group and then compare them. This was just a government program that was found not to work. It may not have worked because they couldn't get a sufficient umber of people who come into contact with the baby to get vaccinated. This is a known problem with cocooning. That doesn't mean it won't help nuku's baby.

 

Again, that's not what the article stated.  The article stated that the strategy was clinically ineffective.


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#32 of 50 Old 05-10-2012, 02:39 PM
 
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Which only means they didn't have a drop in pertussis cases. It doesn't provide any info about why. These were not controlled conditions.
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#33 of 50 Old 05-10-2012, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Which only means they didn't have a drop in pertussis cases. It doesn't provide any info about why. These were not controlled conditions.

 

How do you know that?  The committee was given information from 2 pharmaceutical manufacturers; I assume (and yes, I know that is dangerous) that the information was based on studies.  They may or may not have been controlled conditions - we have no way of knowing based on the article.


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#34 of 50 Old 05-10-2012, 04:07 PM
 
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Good point. We are both making assumptions. I still don't think it means we should throw the whole idea of cocooning overboard, though, especially when there are studies that show it DOES make a difference.
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#35 of 50 Old 05-10-2012, 04:18 PM
 
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Good point. We are both making assumptions. I still don't think it means we should throw the whole idea of cocooning overboard, though, especially when there are studies that show it DOES make a difference.

But aren't those studies tainted because they were tied to the industry who produced the vaccines?
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#36 of 50 Old 05-10-2012, 04:30 PM
 
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Good point. We are both making assumptions. I still don't think it means we should throw the whole idea of cocooning overboard, though, especially when there are studies that show it DOES make a difference.

First, it would be really helpful if you would get in the habit of providing citations/links in your posts, especially when making statements like "studies show..."

Second, I would say that in matters of public policy, the burden of proof rightly rests on the shoulders of the party making the claim and demanding the change. So before requesting taxpayer money and public compliance with a wide-scale medical intervention, the parties wanting to see "cocooning" take place should be providing ample proof that it is a safe, effective, and cost-effective strategy. Because they clearly failed in that regard, Australian officials did the right thing and stopped funding TDaP for cocooning purposes. If anybody protests this measure, it's more than fair to revisit the issue when they can pony up on better science and data.

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#37 of 50 Old 05-10-2012, 04:40 PM
 
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I'm not contesting the decision in Australia at all. Im just pointing out its hardyl conclusive.

I'm not in the habit of speaking in apa format, and I don't intend to start, sorry. Especially when it's a total double standard. I will try to provide a source when asked, but otherwise you'll just have to take it fwiw, kind of like most things on the Internet.
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#38 of 50 Old 05-10-2012, 04:50 PM
 
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I still don't see anything in that article that tells me anything more than "It didn't work so we discontinued the policy".  I wish there was a link to the actual findings of the investigative committee.  Even if a random committee in Australia found for some unspecified reason cocooning didn't work on a public health scale, it still makes sense to this mama. 

 

Now seriously, I am not arguing that cocooning makes sense on a pro-vax standpoint here.  Let me be clear.  I don't vaccinate my daughter at this point in her life.  I have thought about it (especially recently) and still don't see a favorable risk/benefit ratio.  But I am not against vaccination full stop.  I just question the safety, especially in children.  That said, when I weigh the pros and cons of cocooning vs not cocooning it still seems like the sensible option for me and also for others.  I don't worry much about my DH getting a vaccine reaction since he is full grown with no history of health issues.  (As a matter of fact I just got him to get Tdap since we will be doing cocooning--I am immune myself from actually having pertussis 4 years ago, I got my titer checked.)  I also don't see any reason for the rest of our adult immediate family (grandparents) to get the Tdap before coming to visit the newborn.  If the alternative is to do nothing, why not be proactive (for consenting adults who are willing and happy to get Tdap to get it)?  And I am speaking for my own family here, but I do see it as a microcosim of a whole.  I don't see why cocooning should be discouraged on this forum and elsewhere?

 

Even if my version of cocooning is not totally without holes (since my toddler is un-vaxxed) it seems sensible to try as hard as I can to prevent adults from getting pertussis and bringing it into the home.  The CDC MMWR from 2008 says that computer models showed a newborn has a 38% less chance of catching pertussis if both parents are vaxxed.  And the numbers go up to 75% if all family members coming in contact with the new baby are vaxxed with Tdap.

 

Where it gets murky is that I don't necessarily agree with kids getting vax pushed on them by the state.  So the part of cocooning that our state (WA) is currently implementing with doing boosters in middle and high schools kind of freaks me out.  I mean, parents do have a right to decline the vax for their kids in this state, but it seems too much like forced vaccination in that case.  However, I am all for a consenting adult (or older child) willingly walking into a pharmacy or Dr. office and requesting a booster because of cocooning...


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#39 of 50 Old 05-10-2012, 06:05 PM
 
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I'm not contesting the decision in Australia at all. Im just pointing out its hardyl conclusive.
I'm not in the habit of speaking in apa format, and I don't intend to start, sorry. Especially when it's a total double standard. I will try to provide a source when asked, but otherwise you'll just have to take it fwiw, kind of like most things on the Internet.

Cutting a link and pasting it into an MDC post is hardly as painstaking as figuring out the APA format.  And no, on a conversation as pivotal as vaccinations, I will not take a "FWIW" approach to unsupported statements.  Most doctors already expect me to do that, thank you very much.  winky.gif   Anyway, go ahead and leave out the supporting evidence, if you so choose, but don't expect your statements to be taken seriously without it.  In these discussions, I expect facts and data.  But that's just me.  I'm a woman of high standards. loveeyes.gif   

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#40 of 50 Old 05-10-2012, 06:24 PM
 
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That's what fwiw means, ignore me if you'd like. Its a complete double standard, though. I don't see you asking anyone else for citations for comparable statements.
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#41 of 50 Old 05-11-2012, 11:59 AM
 
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That's what fwiw means, ignore me if you'd like. Its a complete double standard, though. I don't see you asking anyone else for citations for comparable statements.

Where's the double standard? The rest of us--on both sides of the issue--include citations.
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#42 of 50 Old 05-12-2012, 08:42 PM
 
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http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2012/03/23/149215700/whooping-cough-bacteria-may-be-changing-their-ways-in-australia

 

Relating the ineffectiveness of the Australian program to the growing percentage of B. parapertussis causing cases. 


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#43 of 50 Old 05-14-2012, 02:24 AM
 
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Edited per moderators request. :) 

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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#44 of 50 Old 05-14-2012, 07:53 AM
 
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If I recall correctly, when I asked you for reference/citations in a different thread (something about the fraction of flu vaccinations which still contain thimerosol I think) you accused me of being a troll.

There have been many times where I have felt that some members were harrassing me rather than discussing the issue.

You were asking me for citations for things like my statement that "the US autism rate is now 1 in 88." That had already been cited several times as having been announced by the CDC. I believe the other points on my post had also been discussed and cited on various threads on this forum. None of my points were a leap to a conclusion that I and only I made. They were all based on hard facts.

If you would like to further discuss this, I suggest we take this to pm, so that we do not derail this thread into yet another argument.
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#45 of 50 Old 05-14-2012, 08:01 AM
 
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edited per Mosaic's instructions.

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#46 of 50 Old 05-14-2012, 08:48 AM
 
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And you claiming harassment is hilariously ironic.
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#47 of 50 Old 05-14-2012, 08:51 AM
 
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Assuming people are trolls simply because they disagree with you, or because they challenge your assertions, doesn't make people take you more seriously. If you feel harassed stop posting, or ask a mod to stop the bullying.

I dont make assumptions about people simply because they disagreed with me. Ever.

Again, I respectfully request that if you want to pursue this subject further, that we take it to pm, so as not to derail the thread into an argument.
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#48 of 50 Old 05-14-2012, 08:54 AM
 
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Perhaps you shouldve started the argument in pms, then, or be the first one to switch.
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#49 of 50 Old 05-14-2012, 10:01 AM
 
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Perhaps you shouldve started the argument in pms, then, or be the first one to switch.
Great advice for everyone, yourself included.

Please keep the personal banter in PM or better still, to yourself!

Discussions of trolls and harassment belong in PM and/or via the handy report button, not in a thread. Please edit your posts or I can remove them for you.

Thanks for helping us get back on track!

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#50 of 50 Old 05-14-2012, 10:26 AM
 
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Your right, sorry for being part of the problem.
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