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#61 of 157 Old 05-17-2012, 10:01 AM
 
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Plus I have an autoimmune disorder and a history of vaccine reaction as an infant. I feel like if I was to vax it would feel like Russian roulette to me each time. Personally I couldn't handle that stress right now.

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#62 of 157 Old 05-17-2012, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I think a lot of the uptick in add/ADHD has to do with over diagnosis, but that is just my personal feeling.
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#63 of 157 Old 05-17-2012, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
 
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If I had your medical history I may not have vaxxer, either, nuku. That being said, part of why you have the privilege of not Vaxing and still keeping your child safe is because the other 90 whatever percent of people take on that risk for you by vaccinating their children. I'm not saying that because I think it makes your decision better or worse, just because I think it often gets forgotten or ignored.
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#64 of 157 Old 05-17-2012, 10:08 AM
 
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If I had your medical history I may not have vaxxer, either, nuku. That being said, part of why you have the privilege of not Vaxing and still keeping your child safe is because the other 90 whatever percent of people take on that risk for you by vaccinating their children. I'm not saying that because I think it makes your decision better or worse, just because I think it often gets forgotten or ignored.

 

People are just not that selfless.  They are not "taking on that risk" for others.  They are choosing it for their children because they don't want their children to get sick.  Then they wave the herd immunity argument around to make others feel guilty for making a different decision.

 

Human nature is simply not that altruistic.


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#65 of 157 Old 05-17-2012, 10:18 AM
 
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If I had your medical history I may not have vaxxer, either, nuku. That being said, part of why you have the privilege of not Vaxing and still keeping your child safe is because the other 90 whatever percent of people take on that risk for you by vaccinating their children. I'm not saying that because I think it makes your decision better or worse, just because I think it often gets forgotten or ignored.

I certainly hope no one is vaccinating their child to "protect" mine. Absolutely no need for that, they are perfectly able to protect themselves with an intact immune/healing support system. I seriously doubt many people vax for the greater good, they vax because they believe vaccines will prevent their children from getting sick from generally self-limiting [childhood] diseases.

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#66 of 157 Old 05-17-2012, 10:20 AM
 
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If I had your medical history I may not have vaxxer, either, nuku. That being said, part of why you have the privilege of not Vaxing and still keeping your child safe is because the other 90 whatever percent of people take on that risk for you by vaccinating their children. I'm not saying that because I think it makes your decision better or worse, just because I think it often gets forgotten or ignored.

I certainly hope no one is vaccinating their child to "protect" mine. Absolutely no need for that, they are perfectly able to protect themselves with an intact immune/healing support system. I seriously doubt many people vax for the greater good, they vax because they believe vaccines will prevent their children from getting sick from generally self-limiting [childhood] diseases.

 

Yes, people vax to protect their own children. However, people who do not vax benefit from herd immunity.

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#67 of 157 Old 05-17-2012, 10:28 AM
 
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 That being said, part of why you have the privilege of not Vaxing and still keeping your child safe is because the other 90 whatever percent of people take on that risk for you by vaccinating their children. I'm not saying that because I think it makes your decision better or worse, just because I think it often gets forgotten or ignored.

 

I disagree - at least where MDC is concerned.  I cannot have a conversation on any of the vaccine forums (the exception is the non-vaxxing forum) without someone coming on and saying  "yeah, but the reason measles is so low is because the vax rate is so high."  I know full well that many pro-vax arguments boil down to herd immunity issues.  They have to:  arguing that you should get the diptheria vaccine when incredibly few people get diptheria makes no logical sense unless you bring herd immunity issues into it.  

 

I disagree with some of the reasoning around the herd immunity argument - but disagreeing is not forgotten or ignored. 

 

Heck, even at this moment, this conversation is dissolving into "herd immunity" issues.  

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#68 of 157 Old 05-17-2012, 10:34 AM
 
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Yes, people vax to protect their own children. However, people who do not vax benefit from herd immunity.

I think, at best, herd immunity is debatable.  There may have been herd immunity with a few vaccines (such as the MMR, particularly the rubella component), but there are several valid arguments (mentioned and cited several times on this forum) that refute the whole idea of herd immunity.  Besides for that, several vaccines (such as the flu shot, pertussis, tetanus, and rotavirus) either don't work, or are not part of the herd immunity theory, anyway.

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#69 of 157 Old 05-17-2012, 10:36 AM
 
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I can't say what different decisions I would make if we lived in an age where polio or smallpox was rampant. I can only make my decisions based on the here and now. Honestly I never heard about the concept of "herd immunity" until I was in midwifery school. I don't think many parents out there who vaccinate on schedule because their doctor tells them to do really think about the "herd". They (like me) think about their child as an individual. By the way, I have many friends who vax. It drives me crazy to no end that they are constantly bringing their kids to playground and birthday parties with runny noses and coughs. It's almost like most parents don't get the idea of disease as communicable. Now I'm not talking about VPDs here, I'm talking about colds and flu. But I never bring my child in public when she is ill. Our pediatric office has a seperate door and entrance you are supposed to use if your child has flu symptoms. It is always locked. I have to call from outside to get a nurse to open it the few times my DD has had a flu like illness. She's always suprised because it's so rarely used that I would go out of my way to bring her in that way. She always says "next time just go in the front.". Why is society so cavalier about other non VPD infectious disease but so fearful of those we have shots for? It's frustrating. (And I'm aware flu is actually a VPD but IRL I know barely anyone who gets the vax for it. Even my very "on schedule" friends.)
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#70 of 157 Old 05-17-2012, 10:43 AM
 
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I can't say what different decisions I would make if we lived in an age where polio or smallpox was rampant. I can only make my decisions based on the here and now. Honestly I never heard about the concept of "herd immunity" until I was in midwifery school. I don't think many parents out there who vaccinate on schedule because their doctor tells them to do really think about the "herd". They (like me) think about their child as an individual. By the way, I have many friends who vax. It drives me crazy to no end that they are constantly bringing their kids to playground and birthday parties with runny noses and coughs. It's almost like most parents don't get the idea of disease as communicable. Now I'm not talking about VPDs here, I'm talking about colds and flu. But I never bring my child in public when she is ill. Our pediatric office has a seperate door and entrance you are supposed to use if your child has flu symptoms. It is always locked. I have to call from outside to get a nurse to open it the few times my DD has had a flu like illness. She's always suprised because it's so rarely used that I would go out of my way to bring her in that way. She always says "next time just go in the front.". Why is society so cavalier about other non VPD infectious disease but so fearful of those we have shots for? It's frustrating. (And I'm aware flu is actually a VPD but IRL I know barely anyone who gets the vax for it. Even my very "on schedule" friends.)

 

And really, that runny nose or cough could very well be pertussis.  Even non-paralytic polio often presents as a run of the mill virus, with sore throat, headache, nausea.  Heck, maybe that's what my son had a few weeks ago.  (I kid, and I know that polio isn't funny, but even when it was common, it was not severe in most cases).


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#71 of 157 Old 05-17-2012, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I am not saying people choose to vaccinate for the greater good, that's not true at all. But because people choose to vaccinate your child is safer. They take the risks and as a result your child is safe even if you don't. An unvaccinated child living in a mostly vaccinated population is safer from disease than a vaccinated child living in an unvaccinated population.

I'm not going to debate herd immunity. It's a ridiculous argument that requires a suspension of common sense, IMO. We will just have to agree to disagree on that.
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#72 of 157 Old 05-17-2012, 11:10 AM
 
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This is from CDC  (courtesay of Dr. Sears).  I know it is low-ball, but it might be a starting point:

 

 

How common are severe vaccine side effects?

We know that all vaccines can cause some standard side effects, such as fever, fussiness, pain and swelling, and various body aches. Such reactions are expected, and I consider them to be harmless in the long run, as long as they aren’t too severe.  But it’s the more serious, life-threatening reactions that have parents worried.

Data from the Centers for Disease Control shows the likelihood of a severe vaccine reaction that results in a sudden, life-threatening event, a prolonged hospitalization, a permanent disability, or death, is about 1 in 100,000 doses. Such reactions include brain swelling and inflammation (encephalitis), brain dysfunction (encephalopathy), nerve dysfunction, organ damage, severe arthritis, auto-immune disorders, and other effects.

 

 

 

Anyone feeling mathy?  Critique my math or thought process if you like - I admit I am not certain of it!

 

 

If  children received 35 doses  (Canadian average), does that mean  the chance of a reaction is 35/ 100 000?

 (1/100 000 risk per dose, 35 doses).  35/100 000 boils down to 1/2857.  It is too high for me, and I imagine too high for anyone who does not completely embrace herd immunity.  

 

If you do believe in herd immunity, it might be interesting to compare 1/2857 with what the chances were (using prevaccine rates) of your child getting and having a severe reaction to a disease.   That might be tricky to do, as we cannot assume severity rates would remain the same with advances in medicine.  It is hard to tell:  with some disease there are simply too few cases floating around in developed countries to get an accurate rate for severity.

 

Of course, different vaccines have different safety profiles  (MMR rate of febrile seizure is darn high, for example:  . 1 During the 8-10 days after vaccination, about one additional febrile seizure occurs among every 3,000-4,000 children who receive MMR vaccine, compared with children who do not receive any vaccines..CDC)  This needs to be taken into account when vaxxing.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#73 of 157 Old 05-17-2012, 11:17 AM
 
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I am not saying people choose to vaccinate for the greater good, that's not true at all. But because people choose to vaccinate your child is safer. They take the risks and as a result your child is safe even if you don't. An unvaccinated child living in a mostly vaccinated population is safer from disease than a vaccinated child living in an unvaccinated population.
I'm not going to debate herd immunity. It's a ridiculous argument that requires a suspension of common sense, IMO. We will just have to agree to disagree on that.

 

 

If you want to agree to disagree on herd immunity, then please don't bring it up as an argument.

 

You can't have it both ways.

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#74 of 157 Old 05-17-2012, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
 
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That's a .003% chance. In the Pre-vaccine era almost everyone got the measles. Around 1 in 1000, or .1% died.
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#75 of 157 Old 05-17-2012, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I am not saying people choose to vaccinate for the greater good, that's not true at all. But because people choose to vaccinate your child is safer. They take the risks and as a result your child is safe even if you don't. An unvaccinated child living in a mostly vaccinated population is safer from disease than a vaccinated child living in an unvaccinated population.
I'm not going to debate herd immunity. It's a ridiculous argument that requires a suspension of common sense, IMO. We will just have to agree to disagree on that.

 

 

If you want to agree to disagree on herd immunity, then please don't bring it up as an argument.

 

You can't have it both ways.


Sure I can. I can bring it up and you can say you disagree and then we just go on our way.
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#76 of 157 Old 05-17-2012, 11:26 AM
 
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I'm a newbie here so please forgive my ignorance. I've read this whole thread with great interest. Some of my questions are:

 

How long has date been collected historically on serious vaccine reactions? A lot of the replies seem to address more recent issues, i.e. pertaining to their kids currently and only a few adults have spoken up about their own reactions. I know my mother has never mentioned anything to me about any reactions I may have had as a kid but I will certainly ask her about it now.

 

Have there been changes in how vaccines are produced in the last 50 years? If so, could that be a factor in these seemingly more prevalent occurrences?

 

As to the more frequent diagnoses of various behavioral problems etc. I tend to believe that western society in general puts way too much trust in western medicine and its system of diagnosing and treating symptoms. Maybe vaccines have contributed to a surge in these disorders, maybe not. Maybe everyone nowadays thinks that once they get a diagnosis they can solve the problem so let's just slap a label on it and give 'em some pills. In the same way that people rarely die of old age anymore, they simply get diagnosed with something, like my 99 year old great-aunt who died from "cancer". Sure she had cancer, it showed up rapidly in the last 6 months of her life, but in my opinion she died of old age, she was 99!

 

But back to the point: how many of us have adult friends who a) got vaccines (a lot and on schedule) and b) were diagnosed with any sort of disorder? I don't know of any friends of mine who had problems with vaccines. But then again, maybe they did and their parents were not taken seriously...

 

And how can we ever know for sure that there is a direct correlation with diseases/disorders that show up at a later age? There are too many variables, as another poster already pointed out, to pinpoint and say, yes, this is obviously the one and only thing that caused this.

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#77 of 157 Old 05-17-2012, 11:27 AM
 
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I can't say what different decisions I would make if we lived in an age where polio or smallpox was rampant. I can only make my decisions based on the here and now. Honestly I never heard about the concept of "herd immunity" until I was in midwifery school. I don't think many parents out there who vaccinate on schedule because their doctor tells them to do really think about the "herd". They (like me) think about their child as an individual. By the way, I have many friends who vax. It drives me crazy to no end that they are constantly bringing their kids to playground and birthday parties with runny noses and coughs. It's almost like most parents don't get the idea of disease as communicable. Now I'm not talking about VPDs here, I'm talking about colds and flu. But I never bring my child in public when she is ill. Our pediatric office has a seperate door and entrance you are supposed to use if your child has flu symptoms. It is always locked. I have to call from outside to get a nurse to open it the few times my DD has had a flu like illness. She's always suprised because it's so rarely used that I would go out of my way to bring her in that way. She always says "next time just go in the front.". Why is society so cavalier about other non VPD infectious disease but so fearful of those we have shots for? It's frustrating. (And I'm aware flu is actually a VPD but IRL I know barely anyone who gets the vax for it. Even my very "on schedule" friends.)

 

I'll admit, I take my kid to daycare when he has a runny nose, which is fairly common during the winter months, though its not at all constant. I don't really consider a runny nose to be "ill" though. A cough isn't really "ill" either most of the time, unless accompanied by a fever or other symptoms. And coughs also tend to stick around for a few days past the point of being "ill" - after the child is no longer contagious. I'm not able to keep my kid home until all signs of any possible thing wrong with him are completely 100% gone, and I'm willing to bet thats the case with most other people too.

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#78 of 157 Old 05-17-2012, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Dakipode those are great questions but very difficult to answer! I feels like vaers started in the eighties and VSD started in the early 90s? But I'm not sure. I know I read it somewhere recently.

We will never really know for sure that vaccines do or do not cause health problems years down the road, IMO. We will (or do) have an idea of the biological plausibility of that scenario, and we can compare the prevalence of various disorders in older generations and younger generations to see if they have gotten more prevalent as vaccine use increased. Vaccines are held to a high safety standard (yes yes, I know, we don't all agree on that) because they are given to healthy people, which makes the risk reward equation a little different. At some point if the scientific community had a reasonable suspicion they were causing harm down the road you would probably see vaccine policy change long long long before we were ever sure or even mostly sure. Jmo, and you know how opinions are, everybody has one!

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Before the vaccine apparently 1 in 200 children under the age of five developed invasive hib disease. 15-30 percent of those became hearing impaired and 420 died children a year died and it was the leading cause of mental retardation in the united states. It's difficult to account for all of that but the hearing impairment because I don't really know how to come up with how many children under five there were (about 3.4 - 4 million kids born a year so 15-20 million, maybe?) but just looking at hearing impairment, 15- 30% of 1 in 200 is a .007%-.014% chance of hearing impairment from hib before the vaccine.
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I am not saying people choose to vaccinate for the greater good, that's not true at all. But because people choose to vaccinate your child is safer. They take the risks and as a result your child is safe even if you don't. An unvaccinated child living in a mostly vaccinated population is safer from disease than a vaccinated child living in an unvaccinated population.
I'm not going to debate herd immunity. It's a ridiculous argument that requires a suspension of common sense, IMO. We will just have to agree to disagree on that.

I like the way you put this. I haven't done all the reading on herd immunity, vaccination rates and outbreaks, etc. But it does appear that vaccines lower the incidence of diseases. I can see that with chicken pox. Only one kid I know has had it (and it was someone online). Growing up, everyone I knew had it. However, that does not mean "we", those who choose not to vaccinate are asking for or banking on herd immunity. I can assure you, if vaccination rates drop and VPD's go up, I still won't run out and vaccinate without further research. I cannot help that my children may reap a benefit because of the choices other parents make. It's not my fault. I'm not pushing them to vaccinate. To the contrary, I want more people to do research, which I think will lead to more delayed/selective vaxers, which could potentially put my child at greater risk for a VPD. I think you get it, Rachel, but not everyone does.  


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#81 of 157 Old 05-17-2012, 01:19 PM
 
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Before the vaccine apparently 1 in 200 children under the age of five developed invasive hib disease. 15-30 percent of those became hearing impaired and 420 died children a year died and it was the leading cause of mental retardation in the united states. It's difficult to account for all of that but the hearing impairment because I don't really know how to come up with how many children under five there were (about 3.4 - 4 million kids born a year so 15-20 million, maybe?) but just looking at hearing impairment, 15- 30% of 1 in 200 is a .007%-.014% chance of hearing impairment from hib before the vaccine.

what is the leading bacterial infection now? from my understanding, and I am open to correction, is that there is always a "leading" bacterial infection. first it was HiB, then various strains of pneumococcal pneumonia, then another set of strains of pneumococal pneumonia...each time a new leading one comes out, a vaccine follows. Are that many children being impaired or killed by HiB, no, but are that many children being impaired or killed by some other, newer, possibly more deadly bacterial infection.

More info on serotype replacement is in the thread below.

 

 

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/574250/staph-and-prevnar


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#82 of 157 Old 05-17-2012, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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That's interesting. I don't have data handy to compare something like staph to something like hib. Certainly something that needs to be part of the picture when decisions are made about vaccine recommendations. Sounds like that conversation is happening so that's good.
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#83 of 157 Old 05-17-2012, 07:20 PM
 
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Rrrrrachel, I think another angle to consider would be if there is any data from other developed countries, I'm thinking about Europe. Are there differences in their findings vs. ours? And if so what could be causing the differences? Manufacturing standards, vaccination schedules?


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#84 of 157 Old 05-17-2012, 09:17 PM
 
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Someone has mentioned this already, but I thought I would tell OP that not all of the vaccine reactions get reported. I won't go into long summaries but my son's reaction was not reported because the Pediatrician REFUSED to report it as vaccine related. Not only that but she fired us as patients because we wanted to change his schedule. Long story short: At 2 months old, shortly after coming home from 6 vaccinations, Wyatt started having seizures, his leg became swollen almost twice its size, he cried all that night, he had a fever, he did not poop for 2 days, (he did finally nurse after a while)  he was acting as if he was pain and was miserable. (Notice that they also tell you that the child may get sick, as a warning?) I was terrified, so I told the doctor I either did not want to vaccinate him anymore or I would delay but he was not going to follow the regular schedule- She refused and tried to talk me out of it. I wouldn't agree to continue on the schedule so she said she would not be our pediatrician anymore. (Even after this happened, he continued having seizures for over 6 months, his head did not grow like normal, the next pediatrician he went to had us take him in for and MRI and a Catscan. The nearest place with the catscan machine was 4 hours away in Wichita. For a few months there we thought he was damaged for life). That new pediatrician was not understanding of my concerns and also tried to talk me into vaccinating and I flat out refused, even after all we had been through he gave me a lecture that made me feel like bad parent and then had me sign a paper that said he was not responsible if my child caught an illness. So why is it that they are more afraid of being held responsible for a child possibly catching one of these diseases and NOT afraid of being responsible for a vaccine reaction? Maybe because they can more easily discount the reaction as having nothing to do with the vaccine? I haven't taken my kids back to any doctor since the day I had to sign that paper. I printed out the measuring charts, I measure their heads and keep track of all that at home.

 

*I forgot to mention that Wyatt still has a half inch long red scar on one leg at his injection site (2 years later)

correction: He didn't poop for 2 days, (I first typed nurse by accident) His eating and pooping were delayed I think because they gave him a rotovirus vaccine by mouth that he had to swallow. (Sorry about the correction I am tired/not sleeping good lol)

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#85 of 157 Old 05-18-2012, 03:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm sorry for what you and your son went through, erinsuzy. I wish more people realized they can report to vaers themselves, no reason to rely on the doctor to do it. That's why vsd is much more reliable, no reporting is needed its automatic. It doesn't even matter if your doctor thought it was a vaccine reaction or not.

I agree comparing data with other countries would be interesting. I have found that data a little harder to come by. A few weeks ago I looked into autism rates for countries that had fewer vaccines on their schedule and they were all comparable to or higher (Israel, what the heck is going on over there?) than ours.
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#86 of 157 Old 05-18-2012, 03:54 AM
 
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I'm sorry for what you and your son went through, erinsuzy. I wish more people realized they can report to vaers themselves, no reason to rely on the doctor to do it. That's why vsd is much more reliable, no reporting is needed its automatic. It doesn't even matter if your doctor thought it was a vaccine reaction or not.
I agree comparing data with other countries would be interesting. I have found that data a little harder to come by. A few weeks ago I looked into autism rates for countries that had fewer vaccines on their schedule and they were all comparable to or higher (Israel, what the heck is going on over there?) than ours.

But Rrrrachael, you have posted several times that VAERS Is worthless BECAUSE anyone can report reactions there, and that (in your opinion) events reported there simply "coincide" with vaccination; on this forum, you have shot down anyone who has quoted VAERS data, and said that such data is unreliable.

Certainly the doctors pay no attention, especially if they themselves refuse to report reactions. So why do you think anyone should bother to report reactions if medical personnel, researchers, ACIP, FDA, CDC, and forum members who defend the current vaccination schedule ignore such reports?

Your points are very confusing.
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#87 of 157 Old 05-18-2012, 04:40 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I absolutely have not done that.
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#88 of 157 Old 05-18-2012, 04:43 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't think researcher do ignore vaers, there are multiple studies on pubmed that use vaers and the CDC compiles data from it as well. It's an important source of data, it could be a lot better and I wish it was, but it's a pretty good first line of defense. I would rather see over reporting than under reporting, personally. If something seems to be caused by vaccines it can always be investigated and confirmed or debunked, but if nothing ever shows up in the first place it may never be investigated at all.
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#89 of 157 Old 05-18-2012, 06:08 AM
 
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 A few weeks ago I looked into autism rates for countries that had fewer vaccines on their schedule and they were all comparable to or higher (Israel, what the heck is going on over there?) than ours.

You and I must not have looked at the same data - many countries with fewer vaccines had less incidence of autism winky.gif   There were some outliers, though, including Israel, Japan, Korea.

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#90 of 157 Old 05-18-2012, 06:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

 A few weeks ago I looked into autism rates for countries that had fewer vaccines on their schedule and they were all comparable to or higher (Israel, what the heck is going on over there?) than ours.

You and I must not have looked at the same data - many countries with fewer vaccines had less incidence of autism winky.gif   There were some outliers, though, including Israel, Japan, Korea.

 

I wonder if it could be something other than vaccines though. (I'm just pondering here, I have no scientific basis for posing these questions) Take Isreal for example, their gene pool is probably much more limited, and if autism is genetic (seems probable right?), that could be a reason for that. I mention this because Taysachs (sp?) Disease is something that affects certain genetically limited populations (Ashkenazi Jews, French Canadians of southeastern Quebec, and Cajuns of southern Louisiana for example - see Wikipedia which is a bad source I know, sorry), and is pretty much unheard of in the rest of the population. I would think that Japan and Korea are similar in that there aren't many immigrants to those countries, and there is very little diversity.

 

This of course does not explain the US rate, unless there are other risk factors that I'm not aware of, since the US has a very diverse gene pool I would imagine. Anyway, just a thought and something to ponder.

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