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#121 of 157 Old 05-20-2012, 12:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

I wasn't trying to be insensitive, but if it's already been established it was due to the vaccine, isn't that pretty much it? I certainly agree we need to learn more about why some people have extreme reactions, but I don't think examining an individual case is the way to do that.


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#122 of 157 Old 05-20-2012, 12:32 PM
 
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I wasn't trying to be insensitive, but if it's already been established it was due to the vaccine, isn't that pretty much it? I certainly agree we need to learn more about why some people have extreme reactions, but I don't think examining an individual case is the way to do that.

Would you like to clarify?

 

It sounds to me like you are saying we do not need to investigate further when a child has an extreme reaction to a vaccine.

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#123 of 157 Old 05-20-2012, 01:42 PM
 
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Use the situation as an opportunity to learn more about the rare reactions. Since I don't vaccinate, I don't need to worry about vaccine reactions (I do worry for others, of course). For parents who do vaccinate, you should want to know anything and everything about these rare reactions. I don't understand why some vaccinating parents ignore reactions--they of all people should want to learn more!!!


 
 
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#124 of 157 Old 05-20-2012, 02:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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When a case has already been through vaccine court I guess I think it has already been investigated pretty thoroughly. I would rather they do something like say "alright, so this girl had a reaction due to an underlying mitochondrial disorder. Let's put a study together and go investigate that.". Studying one person only gets you so far.

I absolutely think they should continue to study vaccine safety as well as continue to try and make vaccines safer and more effective. I think scientists are working on that all the time and I applaud their efforts.
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#125 of 157 Old 05-20-2012, 03:16 PM
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Whale.to is a Holocaust denying hate site. Usually the links will be taken down once flagged for a mod.
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#126 of 157 Old 05-20-2012, 03:18 PM
 
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      Quote:

Originally Posted by stik View Post

Whale.to is a Holocaust denying hate site.

 

Now that I did not know, so things are making a bit more sense now. I think I've been to it like once and just knew it was very anti-vax. 

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#127 of 157 Old 05-20-2012, 03:41 PM
 
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I absolutely think they should continue to study vaccine safety as well as continue to try and make vaccines safer and more effective. I think scientists are working on that all the time and I applaud their efforts.

 

Isn't working on making them safer basically acknowledging that they are not entirely safe?

 

Parents were told that the OPV and DTP were safe.  Now we are told that they weren't, which is why the IPV and DTaP were invented.  In 5, 10 years or whenever, there will be another "safer" vaccine - and people will still claim that reactions hardly ever happened.  Yet if that was the case, why would they need to be safeR?

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#128 of 157 Old 05-20-2012, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Of course they're not entirely safe, they have risks, like pretty much everything else in life. No one has every said vaccinations were risk free (at least no one who knows what they're talking about.). Serious vaccine reactions can and do happen. The pertinent question is how often they happen.
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#129 of 157 Old 05-20-2012, 03:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Opv is safe, IMO. Ipv is safer but less effective in areas where polio is epidemic.
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#130 of 157 Old 05-20-2012, 03:47 PM
 
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Opv is safe, IMO. 

 

Except when it causes AFP and polio.

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#131 of 157 Old 05-20-2012, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I consider driving a car to be safe. It causes death at a much higher rate than opv. I suspect it might even cause more paralysis but I really have no idea of the stats. I don't think the term "safe" is the same as "completely free from all risk."
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#132 of 157 Old 05-21-2012, 10:54 AM
 
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Belkin Congressional testimony on hepatitis B vaccine has been copied to the Refusers Newsroom website at this URL, hopefully that is more acceptable to MDC

 

http://therefusers.com/refusers-newsroom/michael-belkin-testimony-to-congress-on-hepatitis-b-vaccine/
 

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#133 of 157 Old 05-21-2012, 11:41 AM
 
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Whale.to is a Holocaust denying hate site. Usually the links will be taken down once flagged for a mod.
Exactly. Belkin, please edit your previous post to remove the link to that website. They are an active hate site, and we do not wish to contribute to sending more traffic that way, especially since you have linked to the information elsewhere. Thanks!

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#134 of 157 Old 05-22-2012, 06:49 AM
 
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Don't know how common vaccine reactions are.  Personally, my sister had brain-damage from the DTaP.  My mother did not report it, my grandfather, her pediatrician, said it was a vaccine reaction and she's had a medical exemption from the vaccine since it is listed in her medical file.  

 

I think once you KNOW someone who has a vaccine reaction, reported or not, it changes the way you view the statistics.  I know a lot about stats, and I love the quote "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics."

 

I personally don't trust statistics more than personal experience.  I know many parents who say their children were negatively affected by vaccines.  I will not call them liars, or try to point to statistics to tell them that the odds just aren't in their favor.  One of the things I can also say is that many moms call me after their children scream for hours after getting a standard vaccine and ask me why this is 'normal.'  I think 4 out of the last 5 new mothers in my church community have reported their children having a very violent reaction to the Pentecel vaccine, and then are told after by the nurses that it is standard. 

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#135 of 157 Old 05-22-2012, 07:40 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Personal experience can be misleading. I don't mean that people thatsay they have reactions are lying or wrong, so please don't hear that, just that personal experience can lead us to believe the risks are higher than they really are. That is part of human nature. I've used the analogy of how we see risk from plane rides vs risks from driving before, and I think it's a good one.

At the risk of being accused of using anecdotes, I was in a terrible accident as a child while I was out trick or treatin. I spent a long time in the hospital and had many surgeries and log lasting health effects. My child will never trick or treat as a result of that personal experience. I don't take that to mean that trick or treating is really very risky and therefore no one should do it, I know its an emotional decision. We all have to do that emotional calculus for ourselves with vaccines, but there is still an empirical risk of vaccinating vs not vaccinating that's independent of that.
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#136 of 157 Old 05-22-2012, 07:43 AM - Thread Starter
 
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The only reaction to pentacel that I would consider both violent and standard is inconsolable crying. I obviously don't know what the mothers at your church experienced.
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#137 of 157 Old 05-22-2012, 07:44 AM - Thread Starter
 
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And by standard I mean somewhat common, not that everyone gets it. I don't know a single child that has had Uncontrollable crying after a vaccine, even though it is considered standard.
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#138 of 157 Old 05-22-2012, 09:03 AM
 
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My oldest child had uncontrollable SCREAMING, not crying, after DPT. I'm not even sure screaming is the right word--it didn't sound human. I've never heard anything like it before or since, and I hope to heaven I never hear it again.

He was also flailing, with intermittent spasms at arching his back and stiffening.

This went on without any letup for several hours.

We were later informed by the pediatric neurologist that this is a form of seizure/encephalopathy, and definitely caused by the vaccine, but at the time, I had no idea what it was.

I kept calling the pediatrician, but the nurse wouldn't let me speak to the doctor, and kept telling me that I was over-reacting to "a little fussiness." I even asked if I could just come in and show the baby to the doctor, but the nurse told me flatly that they would refuse to see him.

When it's your first baby, you're totally sleep-deprived, you have no family in town, you've never seen a seizure reaction before, and the Medical Authority Figure tells you you are over-reacting, that you're a Hysterical New Mother, and that everything is just fine -- you are just a wee bit reluctant to strap your baby into the car seat and go to the ER against official medical advice from the pediatric nurse.

The neurologist who diagnosed it after the fact didn't report it, nor did the pediatrician (though they did fire the nurse).

I know many parents (in real life, not just via the Internet) who say their babies had similar reactions, and like my experience, the pediatricians/nurses brushed them off. The kids don't all have autism, but they all have something wrong medically. I can think of 2 off the bat who don't have autism, but who have celiac, at least 3 who have asthma, there are a bunch with food allergies, 1 has epilepsy,and one has juvenile rheumatoid arthritis.

Of the 5 I know from our school who do have autism, 3 had this reaction, 1 "slept" for 2 days, and 1 had no reaction at all, but had recurrent ear infections for years, including during the time he got his 12-month shots. Some or most of the others also had recurring ear infections, but I can't remember which was which. Back then, it seemed like a lot of babies were on antibiotics nearly constantly for recurring ear infections.

That's just from 2 different grades at our local elementary school. And only one besides ours was ever sent to a pediatric neurologist (the one who has epilepsy). We do go to a different pediatrician than the others--we started with one before we moved to this school district, and liked him enough to not want to switch. (we hated that nurse, though--we were very glad to see her go.)
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#139 of 157 Old 05-22-2012, 09:04 AM - Thread Starter
 
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That must've been very upsetting.
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#140 of 157 Old 05-22-2012, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22174753

"Using the self-controlled case series design we examined 271,495 12 month vaccinations and 184,312 18 month vaccinations to examine the relative incidence of the composite endpoint of emergency room visits or hospital admissions in consecutive one day intervals following vaccination. These were compared to a control period 20 to 28 days later. In a post-hoc analysis we examined the reasons for emergency room visits and the average acuity score at presentation for children during the at-risk period following the 12 month vaccine.

Four to 12 days post 12 month vaccination, children had a 1.33 (1.29-1.38) increased relative incidence of the combined endpoint compared to the control period, or at least one event during the risk interval for every 168 children vaccinated. Ten to 12 days post 18 month vaccination, the relative incidence was 1.25 (95%, 1.17-1.33) which represented at least one excess event for every 730 children vaccinated. The primary reason for increased events was statistically significant elevations in emergency room visits following all vaccinations. There were non-significant increases in hospital admissions. There were an additional 20 febrile seizures for every 100,000 vaccinated at 12 months."

So if I'm interpreting that correctly, you have around a .1% chance of making an emergency room visit you wouldn't have otherwise made after 18 month vaccines and a .5% chance after 12 month vaccines.
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#141 of 157 Old 05-22-2012, 12:23 PM
 
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22174753
"Using the self-controlled case series design we examined 271,495 12 month vaccinations and 184,312 18 month vaccinations to examine the relative incidence of the composite endpoint of emergency room visits or hospital admissions in consecutive one day intervals following vaccination. These were compared to a control period 20 to 28 days later. In a post-hoc analysis we examined the reasons for emergency room visits and the average acuity score at presentation for children during the at-risk period following the 12 month vaccine.
Four to 12 days post 12 month vaccination, children had a 1.33 (1.29-1.38) increased relative incidence of the combined endpoint compared to the control period, or at least one event during the risk interval for every 168 children vaccinated. Ten to 12 days post 18 month vaccination, the relative incidence was 1.25 (95%, 1.17-1.33) which represented at least one excess event for every 730 children vaccinated. The primary reason for increased events was statistically significant elevations in emergency room visits following all vaccinations. There were non-significant increases in hospital admissions. There were an additional 20 febrile seizures for every 100,000 vaccinated at 12 months."
So if I'm interpreting that correctly, you have around a .1% chance of making an emergency room visit you wouldn't have otherwise made after 18 month vaccines and a .5% chance after 12 month vaccines.

 

for just the MMR vaccine. Here is the conclusion too:

 

 

Quote:
There are significantly elevated risks of primarily emergency room visits approximately one to two weeks following 12 and 18 month vaccination. Future studies should examine whether these events could be predicted or prevented.
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#142 of 157 Old 05-22-2012, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Saying its significant means that the differences are likely due to more than just random variation, the probabilities are still quite small.

I thought it was for all vaccines,thanks for pointing out that it is just for mmr. I wonder how they controlled for that.
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#143 of 157 Old 05-22-2012, 12:52 PM
 
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Most of the women I end up talking to report redness and swelling at the site, fever and uncontrollable screaming for at least 4 hours after the shot.  

 

When I researched the shot I looked into the studies.  from the site:

http://www.drugs.com/pro/pentacel.html

 

Serious Adverse Events

In Study P3T06, within 30 days following any of Doses 1-3 of Pentacel or Control vaccines, 19 of 484 (3.9%) participants who received Pentacel vaccine and 50 of 1,455 (3.4%) participants who received DAPTACEL + IPOL + ActHIB vaccines experienced a serious adverse event. Within 30 days following Dose 4 of Pentacel or Control vaccines, 5 of 431 (1.2%) participants who received Pentacel vaccine and 4 of 418 (1.0%) participants who received DAPTACEL + ActHIB vaccines experienced a serious adverse event. In Study 494-01, within 30 days following any of Doses 1-3 of Pentacel or Control vaccines, 23 of 2,506 (0.9%) participants who received Pentacel vaccine and 11 of 1,032 (1.1%) participants who received HCPDT + POLIOVAX + ActHIB vaccines experienced a serious adverse event. Within 30 days following Dose 4 of Pentacel or Control vaccines, 6 of 1,862 (0.3%) participants who received Pentacel vaccine and 2 of 739 (0.3%) participants who received HCPDT + POLIOVAX + ActHIB vaccines experienced a serious adverse event.

Across Studies 494-01, 494-03 and P3T06, within 30 days following any of Doses 1-3 of Pentacel or Control vaccines, overall, the most frequently reported serious adverse events were bronchiolitis, dehydration, pneumonia and gastroenteritis. Across Studies 494-01, 494-03, 5A9908 and P3T06, within 30 days following Dose 4 of Pentacel or Control vaccines, overall, the most frequently reported serious adverse events were dehydration, gastroenteritis, asthma, and pneumonia.

Across Studies 494-01, 494-03, 5A9908 and P3T06, two cases of encephalopathy were reported, both in participants who had received Pentacel vaccine (N = 5,979). One case occurred 30 days post-vaccination and was secondary to cardiac arrest following cardiac surgery. One infant who had onset of neurologic symptoms 8 days post-vaccination was subsequently found to have structural cerebral abnormalities and was diagnosed with congenital encephalopathy.

A total of 5 deaths occurred during Studies 494-01, 494-03, 5A9908 and P3T06: 4 in children who had received Pentacel vaccine (N = 5,979) and one in a participant who had received DAPTACEL + IPOL + ActHIB vaccines (N = 1,455). There were no deaths reported in children who received HCPDT + POLIOVAX + ActHIB vaccines (N = 1,032). Causes of death among children who received Pentacel vaccine were asphyxia due to suffocation, head trauma, Sudden Infant Death syndrome, and neuroblastoma (8, 23, 52 and 256 days post-vaccination, respectively). One participant with ependymoma died secondary to aspiration 222 days following DAPTACEL + IPOL + ActHIB vaccines.

 

But how many moms look at all of this before administering the vaccine?

I think the parents should be given options on vaccines.  We need to reward vaccines with less side-effects.  That seems like a more honorable, honest, and better health oriented way to vaccinate and to keep the companies improving their products both for the expected benefits and for the general health of the population.  


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#144 of 157 Old 05-22-2012, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I think those vaccines are rewarded by being more widely used?

That's good info you posted, thanks.
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i couldn't copy and paste, but the uncontrollable screaming and crying is considered normal and happens at least 50% of the time.  

 

it's on the charts along w/ side effects that are normal.


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#146 of 157 Old 05-22-2012, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Could you post a link to where you found that information or is it from the drugs.com site? This is for pentacel/daptacel?
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#147 of 157 Old 05-22-2012, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Never mind, I see it on the insert for pentacel that it's listed as one of the >50% side effects.
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#148 of 157 Old 05-22-2012, 02:21 PM
 
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The high-pitched, uncontrollable screaming is neither normal nor benign. If an adult were injected with something that made him scream uncontrollably for hours, that wouldn't be considered normal or benign.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1981251?dopt=Citation
"Reviewing all data, it appears likely that a combination of cerebral vascular autoregulation is responsible for neurologic symptoms. The timing of the encephalopathy suggests that it results from increased lysis of bacteria, and release of endotoxin. The encephalopathy is not confined to the paroxysmal phase. In evaluating side-reactions to the vaccine, the following must be kept in mind: 1. Vaccines are not standardized between manufacturers. 2. For a given manufacturer, vaccines are not standard from one batch to the next... In fact, the whole question of vaccine detoxification has never been systematically investigated. Listed in order of increasing severity, observed adverse reactions include irritability, persistent, unusually high pitched crying, somnolence, seizures, a shock-like "hypotensive, hyporesponsive" state, and an encephalopathy...Although the majority of seizures following pertussis vaccination are associated with fever, it was the consensus of the neurologists attending the workshop, that these do not represent febrile convulsions, but are non-benign convulsions. The incidence of post-vaccine encephalopathy is difficult to ascertain."

http://www.mnwelldir.org/docs/vaccines/dangers_blaylock.htm.
"Mothers and fathers are familiar with the high-pitched crying their babies have after such a series of vaccines. Often, this high pitched crying, lethargy and poor feeding last weeks to months. This is not due to the pain of the injection, as the pediatrician will assure you, rather it is secondary to brain inflammation –what we call an encephalitic cry.". --Russel Blaylock, neurosurgeon
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#149 of 157 Old 05-22-2012, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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There is a difference between uncontrollable crying and high pitched screaming. I don't think what taxi is stalking about and what the packet insert are talking about is the same thing.

Interestingly, the CDC data puts continual crying at 1 in 1000. Not sure why the discrepancy.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/6mishome.htm#risk

(you will have to scroll down for the chart)
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"If an adult were injected with something that made him scream uncontrollably for hours, that wouldn't be considered normal or benign."

 

Adults can vocalize their symptoms and reactions... 

Previously DTP and after DTaP were not used on older children/adults. Either they react more than babies, or they just complain/communicate more effectively. I wonder which is the case, or both??

 

 

Quote:
 However, the "old" whole-cell pertussis vaccine and the "acellular" pertussis vaccine for young children (DTaP) had a high rate of side effects when given to people older than 7 years of age. A new "acellular" pertussis vaccine is available for older children and adults.
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