what are the cons of vaccinations? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 103 Old 05-28-2012, 12:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I wondering if we could compile a concise list of cons of vaccines. I am particularly interested in cons related to specific vaccines.

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#2 of 103 Old 05-28-2012, 04:20 PM
 
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I found the Sears Vaccine book to be very useful in describing just what you are talking about.  Have you read it?  I'd point you towards somewhere like the NVIC but it's pretty biased anti-vax wise.  Not to say the info is wrong...But I just personally dislike bias when I am trying to make an informed decision.


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#3 of 103 Old 05-28-2012, 05:48 PM
 
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I wondering if we could compile a concise list of cons of vaccines. I am particularly interested in cons related to specific vaccines.

I think you may have more luck with this question on the non-vax forum.  It depends on what you want.  If you want a list of reasons, go to the non-vax forum.  If you want a debate on those reasons, do it here.  

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#4 of 103 Old 05-29-2012, 03:35 PM
 
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Unfortunately, if she posts on the non-vax forum, there will still be a debate. It is not a sanctuary forum, since some pro-vax members can't keep their opinions out of that section! What a tempting place.

 

Why can't we have our little echo chamber in peace?  Just one tiny forum to chat among ourselves is too much to ask, I suppose!


 
 
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#5 of 103 Old 05-29-2012, 03:56 PM
 
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Unfortunately, if she posts on the non-vax forum, there will still be a debate. It is not a sanctuary forum, since some pro-vax members can't keep their opinions out of that section! What a tempting place.

Why can't we have our little echo chamber in peace?  Just one tiny forum to chat among ourselves is too much to ask, I suppose!

Eh, the same exact thing happens on the selective and delayed vax board, the problem is certainly not exclusive to the I'm not vaxing board.
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#6 of 103 Old 05-29-2012, 04:03 PM
 
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I try not to post on threads in the non vaccinating board. I did post in one because the poster had asked a question that was fairly general and I thought I had information to share. I did not advocate vaccinating. I feel that that's appropriate.
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#7 of 103 Old 05-29-2012, 06:33 PM
 
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Your posts were just fine. You followed the guidelines and I appreciate that. Sadly, not everyone is that considerate of the forum rules. Some people like to come stir the pot lol.


 
 
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#8 of 103 Old 05-30-2012, 04:42 AM
 
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Ok, thanks for clarifying. I think it's nice you have a little echo chamber and don't want to spoil it for you wink1.gif
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#9 of 103 Old 05-30-2012, 06:34 AM
 
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Are we allowed to have a "What are the pros to vaccines?" thread? To counter this one?

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#10 of 103 Old 05-30-2012, 07:49 AM
 
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I think we should be allowed - the rules (http://mothering.com/motheringdotcommunity-user-agreement) say Mothering is "not interested in discussing the mertis of" mandatory vaccination programs, but I think there's nothing against talking about the benefits of choosing to vaccinate after thinking about the pros and cons.

 

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Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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#11 of 103 Old 05-30-2012, 07:58 AM
 
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Yeah let's do it. I'll contribute. Maybe we should do it as an article (sticky) instead of a thread. Or start it as a thread and then compile it into an article.
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#12 of 103 Old 05-30-2012, 08:18 PM
 
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The funny thing is that this thread never turned into a list of the cons of vaccinations...

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#13 of 103 Old 05-30-2012, 08:47 PM
 
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Getting back to the OP's question:  what are the cons of vaccinations?

 

Well, if you have a severe reaction to the vaccine, the "cons" can be pretty huge: seizures, autoimmune disorders, bowel disorders, encephalopathy, allergic reaction, etc. And it can be very difficult to figure out such a reaction, because reactions are not always immediate.

 

Depending on what you are vaccinating FOR, there could be long-term ramifications.  Vaccination for chicken pox is reported to result in a higher incidence of shingles, which can be very severe. (Merck, who manufactures the chicken pox vaccine, claims that there is no link between chicken pox vaccination and higher incidence of shingles, based on their own studies.)

 

If you ask someone who passionately defends the current vaccine program this question, they will say that the risks of vaccination are vanishingly rare, and usually limited to mild side effects such as redness and swelling at injection site.

 

In fact, that's usually what parents are told at vaccine visits, and the "informed consent" form usually states something like "reactions may include redness and swelling at site, fever, fussiness." 

Note the phrasing there--it doesn't say that vaccines might cause ANYTHING else--like seizures, or brain damage, or autoimmune disorders, or bowel disorders.

 

But those can and do happen, and just like the rare complications from vaccine-preventable diseases, you can never go back in time and undo the damage.

 

If you look at the US vaccine court, the Department of Health and Human Services has compensated about 2000 cases of vaccine-induced brain damage.

 

Italy recently made a financial award to the family of a child whose autism was reported to have been caused by the MMR.

 

France has compansated cases of MS caused by the hepatitis B vaccine.

 

The US has compensated cases of vaccine-induced lupus.

 

The Finnish government has announced that it will pay lifelong medical costs for the children stricken by vaccine-induced narcolepsy.

 

So if you ask anyone who has had severe reactions to vaccines, or whose child has had severe reactions to vaccines, they will answer very differently from those who have not had or seen such reactions.

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#14 of 103 Old 05-31-2012, 05:49 AM
 
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Vpd can also result in severe and lifelong complications.


The chicken pox vaccine may cause a temporary increase in shingles if people don't also get the shingles vaccine. This is because adults aren't exposed to chicken pox as often and don't get a natural immune boost throughout life. As more of the older generation are vaccinated for chicken pox as children and never have the full virus to reactivate that number should drop again, and the cases that do come up should be milder, since they will be a reactivation of the weakened virus from the vaccine and not full blown chicken pox.

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#15 of 103 Old 05-31-2012, 06:30 AM
 
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Vpd can also result in severe and lifelong complications.


The chicken pox vaccine may cause a temporary increase in shingles if people don't also get the shingles vaccine. This is because adults aren't exposed to chicken pox as often and don't get a natural immune boost throughout life. As more of the older generation are vaccinated for chicken pox as children and never have the full virus to reactivate that number should drop again, and the cases that do come up should be milder, since they will be a reactivation of the weakened virus from the vaccine and not full blown chicken pox.
 

 

Warning: Anecdata coming up. My little brother had a very mild case of chicken pox (like 5 spots total - we knew it was CP because he got it from me and my older brother - both of us were very sick), but he had a sore on his eyeball and had to go to the eye Doctor every day for 5 days to get eyedrops (PITA because it had to be at the very end of the work day after all other patients had left the office). Then my mom had to continue putting drops in his eyes for a few weeks after that.

 

The concern? Blindness. I'm glad for the vaccine! Plus I really don't want to have to take unpaid leave (which means my health insurance would lapse) from work if my ds gets the CP because I don't have that much sick leave saved up and won't for some time now. I could take vacation, but I rarely have that much paid vacay saved up either because its use it or lose it on a yearly basis.

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#16 of 103 Old 05-31-2012, 06:57 AM
 
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 Plus I really don't want to have to take unpaid leave (which means my health insurance would lapse) from work if my ds gets the CP because I don't have that much sick leave saved up and won't for some time now. I could take vacation, but I rarely have that much paid vacay saved up either because its use it or lose it on a yearly basis.

If I had had a choice, I would have taken unpaid leave for a case of chicken pox over the unpaid leave I had to take for my children's severe vaccie reactions.

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#17 of 103 Old 05-31-2012, 06:59 AM
 
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Taxi, I'm just curious, do you think the chances of a severe vaccine reaction are higher than the chances of a serious complication from the illness?  If so, do you think that was true when the diseases were more common in the pre-vaccine era, or are you calculating the unlikelihood of getting the disease thanks to vaccines into that assessment?

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#18 of 103 Old 05-31-2012, 07:06 AM
 
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 Plus I really don't want to have to take unpaid leave (which means my health insurance would lapse) from work if my ds gets the CP because I don't have that much sick leave saved up and won't for some time now. I could take vacation, but I rarely have that much paid vacay saved up either because its use it or lose it on a yearly basis.

If I had had a choice, I would have taken unpaid leave for a case of chicken pox over the unpaid leave I had to take for my children's severe vaccie reactions.

 

That was an entirely unhelpful post. My ds is 3yo and has never had a vax reaction despite being fully vaccinated to this point.

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#19 of 103 Old 05-31-2012, 10:28 AM
 
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Plus I really don't want to have to take unpaid leave (which means my health insurance would lapse) from work if my ds gets the CP because I don't have that much sick leave saved up and won't for some time now. I could take vacation, but I rarely have that much paid vacay saved up either because its use it or lose it on a yearly basis.

 

I wouldn't be over confident in the efficacy of varicella vax. When CP went around both my DC's elementary schools, it didn't discriminate between the vaxed and unvaxed.

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#20 of 103 Old 05-31-2012, 10:32 AM
 
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Plus I really don't want to have to take unpaid leave (which means my health insurance would lapse) from work if my ds gets the CP because I don't have that much sick leave saved up and won't for some time now. I could take vacation, but I rarely have that much paid vacay saved up either because its use it or lose it on a yearly basis.

 

I wouldn't be over confident in the efficacy of varicella vax. When CP went around both my DC's elementary schools, it didn't discriminate between the vaxed and unvaxed.

 

I'm not over-confident. I'm lessening the chances of my ds getting it. And I'm hoping that everyone who is able to be vaxed is in fact vaxed. I should look into the exemptions available in my area.

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#21 of 103 Old 05-31-2012, 10:58 AM
 
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That was an entirely unhelpful post. My ds is 3yo and has never had a vax reaction despite being fully vaccinated to this point.

I'm so glad for you that your ds never had a vax reaction.

 

I expect that the majority do NOT have the reactions my children and I have had.

 

Still, many families like mine face a higher chance of having reactions than they know.  The red flags in our case were there, but the vast majority of doctors (let alone mommies on an internet forum) don't know that those flags even exist.

 

If I had had a chance to hear from parents of children with vax reactions, I would not have vaxed my kids on schedule.  In retrospect, I would have been very grateful to have seen a post such as the one that you call "entirely unhelpful."  I would have found it very helpful, indeed.

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#22 of 103 Old 05-31-2012, 11:15 AM
 
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That was an entirely unhelpful post. My ds is 3yo and has never had a vax reaction despite being fully vaccinated to this point.

I'm so glad for you that your ds never had a vax reaction.

 

I expect that the majority do NOT have the reactions my children and I have had.

 

Still, many families like mine face a higher chance of having reactions than they know.  The red flags in our case were there, but the vast majority of doctors (let alone mommies on an internet forum) don't know that those flags even exist.

 

If I had had a chance to hear from parents of children with vax reactions, I would not have vaxed my kids on schedule.  In retrospect, I would have been very grateful to have seen a post such as the one that you call "entirely unhelpful."  I would have found it very helpful, indeed.

 

Then please tell us what red flags to look for, rather than harping on the fact that we are all vulnerable to these reactions, and that we will forever regret our decision because the vax reactions DO HAPPEN ALL THE TIME.

 

What are the red flags?? Why have you never posted what those red flags are?

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Here is a start on what to ask before you vaccinate.  People should research any non-reassuring answer (IMHO) before moving forward with vaccinating.

 

http://www.nvic.org/Ask-Eight-Questions.aspx

 

 

  1. Am I or my child sick right now?
  2. Have I or my child had a bad reaction to a vaccination before?
  3. Do I or my child have a personal or family history of vaccine reactions, neurological disorders, severe allergies or immune system problems?
  4. Do I know the disease and vaccine risks for myself or my child?
  5. Do I have full information about the vaccine’s side effects?
  6. Do I know how to identify and report a vaccine reaction?
  7. Do I know I need to keep a written record, including the vaccine manufacturer’s name and lot number, for all vaccinations?
  8. Do I know I have the right to make an informed choice?
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#24 of 103 Old 05-31-2012, 11:38 AM
 
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Here is a start on what to ask before you vaccinate.  people should research any non-reassuring answer (IMHO) before moving forward with vaccinating.

 

http://www.nvic.org/Ask-Eight-Questions.aspx

 

 

  1. Am I or my child sick right now?
  2. Have I or my child had a bad reaction to a vaccination before?
  3. Do I or my child have a personal or family history of vaccine reactions, neurological disorders, severe allergies or immune system problems?
  4. Do I know the disease and vaccine risks for myself or my child?
  5. Do I have full information about the vaccine’s side effects?
  6. Do I know how to identify and report a vaccine reaction?
  7. Do I know I need to keep a written record, including the vaccine manufacturer’s name and lot number, for all vaccinations?
  8. Do I know I have the right to make an informed choice?

 

I've seen this. I'm asking for obvious red flags that my child will have a very very rare and extremely serious reaction. We don't vax when we're sick (my ped wouldn't let us if we wanted to), and there is zero family history of reactions. So, there goes the most obvious of risk factors, what are the others?

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#25 of 103 Old 05-31-2012, 11:51 AM
 
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Plus I really don't want to have to take unpaid leave (which means my health insurance would lapse) from work if my ds gets the CP because I don't have that much sick leave saved up and won't for some time now. I could take vacation, but I rarely have that much paid vacay saved up either because its use it or lose it on a yearly basis.

 

I wouldn't be over confident in the efficacy of varicella vax. When CP went around both my DC's elementary schools, it didn't discriminate between the vaxed and unvaxed.


I wonder how you got access to confidential medical information so you could accurately calculate the rate of infection in the vaccinated and non vaccinated populations.
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#26 of 103 Old 05-31-2012, 12:33 PM
 
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I wonder how you got access to confidential medical information so you could accurately calculate the rate of infection in the vaccinated and non vaccinated populations.

Oh please. Mothers talk, you know. All us moms are standing outside the very small schools waiting to pick up our dcs and we discussed the outbreaks and those that had kids that were vaccinated but still had CP were happy to admit to it, it was about a ratio of 40 : 60  with vaxed being the smallest number, (I don't mean total children that was a much smaller number). Also, vaccination status didn't seem to affect the severity of the CP, some vaccinated kids had a bad dose while others didn't, same with the unvaxed kids. Interestingly, no kid that had natural CP got it twice. Of course you will disregard this and I really couldn't care less if you do.

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#27 of 103 Old 05-31-2012, 12:35 PM
 
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I wonder how you got access to confidential medical information so you could accurately calculate the rate of infection in the vaccinated and non vaccinated populations.

A lot of times it's broadcast. I've read several newspaper articles regarding the vax status of those who contract a VPD. Of course, i know you aren't asking me, but that's what I've noticed.

 

OP- this is so difficult. To me, the cons of vaccinating outweigh the pros, especially for my family and our situation. But some of the things I see as cons, other people may not. Maybe we could take this disease by disease, rather than all vaccines as a whole. Because while I dont vaccinate for anything, I do believe some may be more worthwhile than others.

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#28 of 103 Old 05-31-2012, 01:08 PM
 
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I see. Comparing raw numbers. Means nothing.
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#29 of 103 Old 05-31-2012, 01:32 PM
 
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Whatever. I thought this thread was entitled the cons of vaccinations. 

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#30 of 103 Old 05-31-2012, 01:47 PM
 
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I thought that's what we were discussing?
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