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#361 of 713 Old 06-06-2012, 03:49 AM
 
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Okay , I deleted my last sentence !


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#362 of 713 Old 06-06-2012, 04:00 AM
 
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prosciencemum´s comment is really , what it´s mostly about for me !

There are no real , well - founded , scientifically based studies , that clearly show , that vaccinations are harmful 

Only the ones on the anti - vacc sites and funny enough , you cannot find their so - called " findings " anywhere else , at least on no credible sites !

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#363 of 713 Old 06-06-2012, 04:08 AM
 
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I figure someone just visiting isn't making it past the first couple of pages, anyway. This is eventually bound for a thread in the research forum, I just thought we'd get some of the conversating over with first.

Hopefully.  But if it makes it there, there will have to be a whole lot of personal back and forth that will probably have to be removed.  So I would suggest to everyone who wants their information and comments to remain, to keep to the topic at hand and to avoid any personal bickering.


 
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#364 of 713 Old 06-06-2012, 04:31 AM
 
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There are no real , well - founded , scientifically based studies , that clearly show , that vaccinations are harmful 
Only the ones on the anti - vacc sites and funny enough , you cannot find their so - called " findings " anywhere else , at least on no credible sites !
That is not true. Many, many studies on PubMed have been posted here that conclude that vaccines can and do cause harm. Perhaps you should go back and re-read them.

I'm getting a little tired of posting them and then having people come on here and say they don't exist--it's very hurtful to those of us who have suffered such harm, and who have posted the research that might have prevented it, if our doctors had known about it.
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#365 of 713 Old 06-06-2012, 04:54 AM
 
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I can only speak of my own experience !


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#366 of 713 Old 06-06-2012, 04:54 AM
 
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Taximom - a lot of the abstracts you post are not actually about vaccines, they are about heavy metal exposure, and in much greater quantities than the amount found in vaccines. So sure mercury poisoning is bad for humans, but that has nothing to do with vaccines. 


Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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#367 of 713 Old 06-06-2012, 05:03 AM
 
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Thank you prosciencemum 


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#368 of 713 Old 06-06-2012, 05:08 AM
 
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proscience mom (I am having some issues with cut and paste) - you said 4/13  vaccines had thimerosal in them, which sadly tells me very little about what % of pregnant women and children get thimerosal free shots.  It only tells us these shots exists, not what share of the market they have cornered.

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#369 of 713 Old 06-06-2012, 05:20 AM
 
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proscience mom (I am having some issues with cut and paste) - you said 4/13  vaccines had thimerosal in them, which sadly tells me very little about what % of pregnant women and children get thimerosal free shots.  It only tells us these shots exists, not what share of the market they have cornered.

 

I know. But I don't know how to get that other statistics, and it still doesn't answer where the figure of 90% of flu vaccines containing thimerosal comes from. 


Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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#370 of 713 Old 06-06-2012, 05:24 AM - Thread Starter
 
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That is not true. Many, many studies on PubMed have been posted here that conclude that vaccines can and do cause harm. Perhaps you should go back and re-read them.
I'm getting a little tired of posting them and then having people come on here and say they don't exist--it's very hurtful to those of us who have suffered such harm, and who have posted the research that might have prevented it, if our doctors had known about it.

 

 

I have to agree with prosciencemum, many of the things you post aren't really about vaccines at all, and of the rest lots are speculation about what vaccines might do, not research that says they actually do anything.  I don't feel confident enough to say you've not really posted anything saying vaccines cause harm in significant numbers (no one denies that in some very rare cases they do cause serious harm), but I don't remember seeing anything.

 

I don't think anyone is trying to hurt your feelings, just discuss the research.  I realize it's a very personal issue for you, though.

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#371 of 713 Old 06-06-2012, 05:30 AM
 
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prosciencemum´s comment is really , what it´s mostly about for me !

There are no real , well - founded , scientifically based studies , that clearly show , that vaccinations are harmful 

Only the ones on the anti - vacc sites and funny enough , you cannot find their so - called " findings " anywhere else , at least on no credible sites !

 

If you want to conclude that because proscience has not been able to find where the 90% figure in relation to the thimerosal question comes from (which is what proscience was discussing) that there are no real, well founded studies at all that question vaccination….well, then, I have few words.  That is quite the leap.

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#372 of 713 Old 06-06-2012, 05:33 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I would love to see a "case against vaccination," or one place that kind of all the different issues are put together with links that I could go over all at once.  It seems like I'm always getting arguments piecemeal in response to different things, and different people are talking at once but not saying quite the same thing, it makes it confusing and hard to tell what kind of the main concerns vs. the more minor concerns are.  I don't feel like I have a good handle on what the concerns about vaccines are from a reliable source like I would consider the moms here to be.

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#373 of 713 Old 06-06-2012, 05:55 AM
 
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I would love to see a "case against vaccination," or one place that kind of all the different issues are put together with links that I could go over all at once.  It seems like I'm always getting arguments piecemeal in response to different things, and different people are talking at once but not saying quite the same thing, it makes it confusing and hard to tell what kind of the main concerns vs. the more minor concerns are.  I don't feel like I have a good handle on what the concerns about vaccines are from a reliable source like I would consider the moms here to be.

http://vaccinesandevolution.blogspot.com/2012/05/sometimes-while-poking-around-anti.html

 

This blog post seems to sum a lot of it up I think...

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#374 of 713 Old 06-06-2012, 05:55 AM
 
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I would love to see a "case against vaccination," or one place that kind of all the different issues are put together with links that I could go over all at once.  It seems like I'm always getting arguments piecemeal in response to different things, and different people are talking at once but not saying quite the same thing, it makes it confusing and hard to tell what kind of the main concerns vs. the more minor concerns are.  I don't feel like I have a good handle on what the concerns about vaccines are from a reliable source like I would consider the moms here to be.


I came across a good blog post on this...I'll try to send it via PM as I'm apparently not allowed to post links as a new member...

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#375 of 713 Old 06-06-2012, 05:56 AM
 
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I know. But I don't know how to get that other statistics, and it still doesn't answer where the figure of 90% of flu vaccines containing thimerosal comes from. 

Okay

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#376 of 713 Old 06-06-2012, 05:56 AM
 
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If you want to conclude that because proscience has not been able to find where the 90% figure in relation to the thimerosal question comes from that there are no real, well founded studies at all that question vaccination….well, then, I have few words.  That is quite the leap.

 

No , I am simply concluding , that it is very difficult to find any kind of study , that CONCLUSIVELY and unbiased shows , that vaccines cause more harm than good .

I would never deny , that SOMETIMES in very rare cases , one can have a bad reaction to a vaccine . But the same holds true for , for example , antibiotics and I doubt , anybody would dispute their  value , despite the risk of side effects . 

What I DO have a problem with is that some people make vaccines out to be the villain , when in reality , and that again is my very own personal opinion , they are one of the greatest blessings in modern medicine 


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#377 of 713 Old 06-06-2012, 05:56 AM
 
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I would love to see a "case against vaccination," or one place that kind of all the different issues are put together with links that I could go over all at once.  It seems like I'm always getting arguments piecemeal in response to different things, and different people are talking at once but not saying quite the same thing, it makes it confusing and hard to tell what kind of the main concerns vs. the more minor concerns are.  I don't feel like I have a good handle on what the concerns about vaccines are from a reliable source like I would consider the moms here to be.


trying to respond ....take 3

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#378 of 713 Old 06-06-2012, 05:56 AM
 
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Rrrrrachel...this blog post sums a lot of it up I think...

 

http://vaccinesandevolution.blogspot.com/2012/05/sometimes-while-poking-around-anti.html

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#379 of 713 Old 06-06-2012, 06:04 AM
 
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I would love to see a "case against vaccination," or one place that kind of all the different issues are put together with links that I could go over all at once.  It seems like I'm always getting arguments piecemeal in response to different things, and different people are talking at once but not saying quite the same thing, it makes it confusing and hard to tell what kind of the main concerns vs. the more minor concerns are.  I don't feel like I have a good handle on what the concerns about vaccines are from a reliable source like I would consider the moms here to be.

One day, rachel, when the moons align…..

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#380 of 713 Old 06-06-2012, 06:04 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks luv!  I'll check that out.

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#381 of 713 Old 06-06-2012, 06:07 AM
 
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Thanks luv!  I'll check that out.


It talks a lot about India, but to me the concerns seem to be pretty similar here...and I was focusing on the 40 points against...I didn't read the reply of the blogger all that much...

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Rrrrrachel...this blog post sums a lot of it up I think...

 

http://vaccinesandevolution.blogspot.com/2012/05/sometimes-while-poking-around-anti.html

I did not look over the the entire site, as I am off to work….

 

But wow, what a hateful site!!!! 

 

Suffice to say, I don't think it has anything useful to say about why non-vaxxers do not vaccinate - and hate like this only further divides any possibility of understanding.

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#383 of 713 Old 06-06-2012, 06:17 AM
 
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I did not look over the the entire site, as I am off to work….

 

But wow, what a hateful site!!!! 

 

Suffice to say, I don't think it has anything useful to say about why non-vaxxers do not vaccinate - and hate like this only further divides any possibility of understanding.

Kathy, you're right about the hate spewing...and I personally didn't really read the replies, I focused on what the case against was...here is a better link with just the 40 points...http://www.swaraj.org/shikshantar/40Reasons.htm

 

of course the hate goes both ways with this statement: "The above points are not all exhaustive. If after reading all this you still want to vaccinate your child, please go ahead. You deserve a vaccine-damaged child"

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of course the hate goes both ways with this statement: "The above points are not all exhaustive. If after reading all this you still want to vaccinate your child, please go ahead. You deserve a vaccine-damaged child"

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#385 of 713 Old 06-06-2012, 06:25 AM - Thread Starter
 
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There's a lot of misinformation in those 40 points.  That's too bad.

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prosciencemum´s comment is really , what it´s mostly about for me !

There are no real , well - founded , scientifically based studies , that clearly show , that vaccinations are harmful 

Only the ones on the anti - vacc sites and funny enough , you cannot find their so - called " findings " anywhere else , at least on no credible sites !

Not bickering about whether or not pro-vax science has the better case or not, I just wanted to point out that science has had hard time producing definitively what is harmful and what isn't. Just look at the studies of pollutants and toxins in the environment: It is harmful!  Is not!  Only in rats at huge doses!  But the frogs with 8 legs!  It washes off!  The experiment was flawed!  It wasn't extensive enough!  Conflict of interest!  On and on.  

 

On a personal note, being an environmentalist, I am used to be skeptical when they claim certain compounds are "clearly" harmless in any practical exposure, and this habit has carried over into other issues, I'm afraid.  

 

Regardless of which side of the fence I am on, I remain a raging skeptic.

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#387 of 713 Old 06-06-2012, 07:33 AM
 
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No , I am simply concluding , that it is very difficult to find any kind of study , that CONCLUSIVELY and unbiased shows , that vaccines cause more harm than good .

I would never deny , that SOMETIMES in very rare cases , one can have a bad reaction to a vaccine . But the same holds true for , for example , antibiotics and I doubt , anybody would dispute their  value , despite the risk of side effects . 

What I DO have a problem with is that some people make vaccines out to be the villain , when in reality , and that again is my very own personal opinion , they are one of the greatest blessings in modern medicine 

Thank you for providing an example of one of the HUGE problems we face in getting people to understand what is wrong with the current vaccine program.

 

We (vaccine safety advocates) are not saying that vaccines do more harm than good.

 

We are saying that vaccines are doing enough harm that it is unethical to continue, even if they do more good than harm.

 

We're not looking for better than a 50-50 split.

 

We are saying that the harm is to more than "very rare cases," and that WITHOUT EXCEPTION, those who have been harmed, and those whose children have been harmed, were misled into believing that the risks were far smaller than they were/are. 

 

Doctors, nurses, and other health professionals have not been taught to recognize serious vaccine reactions.  Most don't know that signs of serious reaction can occur weeks after the actual vaccination. SO REACTIONS DON'T GET REPORTED BY THE MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS, and the researchers conclude that reactions are far, far rarer than they actually are.

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#388 of 713 Old 06-06-2012, 07:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Except anyone can report a reaction.  It doesn't have to be a medical professional.  

 

I am still looking for some basis, beyond anecdotes, to think that serious vaccine reactions are significantly more likely to occur than currently thought.  Or even how likely they are proposed to be.

 

I absolutely agree better than a 50-50 split is not good enough.  When you're injecting something into an otherwise healthy child the safety profile had better be pretty darned good, regardless of the potential benefit.

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"Healthcare providers are required by law to 

report certain adverse events. To get a list of these, 
please call 1-800-822-7967 or go to 
 
 
"The majority of VAERS reports are sent in by vaccine manufacturers (37%) and health care providers (36%). The remaining reports are obtained from state immunization programs (10%), vaccine recipients (or their parent/guardians, 7%) and other sources (10%)."
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