The case for vaccination - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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Old 06-02-2012, 11:50 AM
 
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The measles vaccine came out in 1963 I think it was. And the current threat to your child is lower because others vaccinate.
Yes, I agree. Thank you.

 

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Old 06-02-2012, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I feel like I have to assess the risk of the vpd on a pre vaccine basis because if we all did otherwise and chose not I vaccinate we'd be right back there, kwim? I get saying to heck with it, I'm goin to play it safe and rely on herd immunity, though. Especially if you own up that that what you're doing.

I have not seen a scientific explanation for major differences between injected (not iv but intramuscular) aluminum vs ingested. I have seen science showing that levels of aluminum in the blood do not measurably rise after a vaccine and that it is mostly eliminated at a similar though slightly lower rate as ingested aluminum. I will review those links you posted when I get a chance later today.
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Old 06-02-2012, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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That dang ophthalmology study. That thing follows me around.

And yes, educated and reasonable people can certainly disagree. I hope aluminum adjuvants continue to be studied so people can either be assured of their safety or we can move to something safer.
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Old 06-02-2012, 12:13 PM
 
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A biology text book is NOT a primary source and is therefore not an acceptable source of proof. As a medical doctor surely you can provide us with a peer reviewed published primary research paper that proves specific antibodies = immunity to specific disease. BTW, how does this work with HIV?

 

 

That's like asking for a peer reviewed primary source to prove that gravity makes things fall to the ground.  It's common knowledge.  It's really not in dispute by the vast majority of people and the scientific community.

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Old 06-02-2012, 12:19 PM
 
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I disagree (I know you're shocked!) orngtongue.gif

But, I see no need to judge today's environment vs. a non-vaccine environment. For instance, If I lived in sub-saharan Africa I imagine I would make a different decision on vaccines. (And, if people are honest, I would imagine others would also make a more pro-vax decision.) But, I live in the US and because others HAVE vaccinated, VPDs are so incredibly rare that now the risk from the vaccine outwieghs the risk of the disease. If less people started vaccinating I imagine my decision about whether to vaccinate would change. I imagine you hate this viewpoint, but it's true.

So, today in America, the risk of the vaccine is greater than the risk of the VPD. Maybe tomorrow will be different. If it is, I'll revisit the issue.

Married to one of the last good guys left Jim
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Old 06-02-2012, 12:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

That dang ophthalmology study. That thing follows me around.

And yes, educated and reasonable people can certainly disagree. I hope aluminum adjuvants continue to be studied so people can either be assured of their safety or we can move to something safer.

Hey, it's your own personal stalker.....

Yes, I hope they continue to study Aluminum for the reasons you stated.

Married to one of the last good guys left Jim
Mom to AJ 4/07 and Genevieve 5/09

And then: I'm really, really tired of making angels.

But wait, could it really be true?


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Old 06-02-2012, 12:36 PM
 
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I feel like I have to assess the risk of the vpd on a pre vaccine basis because if we all did otherwise and chose not I vaccinate we'd be right back there, kwim?

 

All diseases are different - some might climb steeply in the event of a sharp decrease in vaxxing and some might not.  Even among the diseases that might climb steeply, I think it is safe to assume that advances in medical treatment might mean better outcomes, overall.  

 

There are just too many unanswered questions for me to embrace the "we should compare vpds pre-vaccine  to vaccine side effects."

 

Which disease will rise?  By how much?  Where is the proof?  (and a vpd rising after vaccine rates falls is not proof it will rise to pre-vaccine rates, as that has not happened)  Would the disease even be scary now (if it ever was)?  How do you know? The number of most vpds in developed countries are really small - probably too small to gather realistic statistics from.

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Old 06-02-2012, 12:36 PM
 
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Quote: Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel I am darn sure you're more likely I have a serious complication from chicken pox than you are from the vaccine, which I think is the more relevant statistic. Oh don't be so sure. "Vaccination" IMO is destroying our kids immune systems. http://healthyprotocols.com/2_vaccinated_Child.htm Here is one method of action for this epidemiologically demonstrated destruction. "All vaccines given over a short period of time to an immature immune system deplete the thymus gland (the primary gland involved in immune reactions) of irreplaceable immature immune cells. Each of these cells could have multiplied and developed into an army of valuable cells to combat infection and growth of abnormal cells. When these immune cells have been used up, permanent immunity may not appear. The Arthur Research Foundation in Tucson, Arizona estimates that up to 60 % of our immune system may be exhausted[19] by multiple mass vaccines (36 are now required for children). Only 10 % of immune cells are permanently lost when a child is permitted to develop natural immunity from disease. There needs to be grave concern about these immune system injuring vaccinations! Could the persons who approve these mass vaccinations know that they are impairing the health of these children, many of whom are being doomed to requiring much medical care in the future?" Is the "vaccination" needle a weapon of mass destruction The rate of Autism is doubling about every three to four years. At this rate in a few years we ALL will have an autistic child. Instead of developing "vaccines" to stop smoking how about a "vaccine" for autism? We already have one it is called birth control. Don't want an autistic child don't have ANY children. This is the not so hidden message of the explosion of autism.

So, 60% of my immune system was entirely used up by the vaccines I received as a child, and is irreplaceable? Then, every time I get sick 10% is used up? So, after getting all my vaccines, and being sick 4 more times I'll have ZERO immune system left?

You do see how ridiculous this is right?
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Old 06-02-2012, 12:43 PM
 
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So, 60% of my immune system was entirely used up by the vaccines I received as a child, and is irreplaceable? Then, every time I get sick 10% is used up? So, after getting all my vaccines, and being sick 4 more times I'll have ZERO immune system left?
You do see how ridiculous this is right?

 

 

No, no silly!  They get used up in a logarithmic fashion!  1/x will approach 0, but never actually reach it!!!  See, now it's clear, right?

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Old 06-02-2012, 12:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Why wouldn't vpds rise to pre vaccine levels? What's stopping them except vaccines?
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Old 06-02-2012, 12:52 PM
 
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But, I see no need to judge today's environment vs. a non-vaccine environment. For instance, If I lived in sub-saharan Africa I imagine I would make a different decision on vaccines. (And, if people are honest, I would imagine others would also make a more pro-vax decision.) 

 

Exactly.  

 

Yes, if diseases were much more prevalent where I live, I might choose differently.  It depends very much on the vaccine and vpd.  I would probably be sel/delayed.

 

That being said, I do not ask vaxxers to vax, nor do I rely on them to vax.  If they did not vax and rates went up, I would deal.  I know that if vaccine rates go down, some diseases may go up.  I am Ok with that.   Most vaxxers, when they are being honest, say they vax because they think it is best for their children.  It is not to give some sort of gift to society of herd immunity.  That is the side effect of their actions, not the intent (and if it is, ick, I feel your child not should not be put in the position of possibly taking one for the team because you want to support herd immunity)

 

Do I perhaps reap the benefit of their (in my mind, sometimes irrational fear) of diseases?  Yup.  Can I live with it?  Yup.  For those of us who think vaccines might be implicated in auto-immune disorders, autism, allergies, shingles, adults getting diseases they should have had in childhood but the vaccine wore off, etc….vaccinating also has a cost to society.  

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Old 06-02-2012, 12:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

All diseases are different - some might climb steeply in the event of a sharp decrease in vaxxing and some might not.  Even among the diseases that might climb steeply, I think it is safe to assume that advances in medical treatment might mean better outcomes, overall.  

 

There are just too many unanswered questions for me to embrace the "we should compare vpds pre-vaccine  to vaccine side effects."

 

Which disease will rise?  By how much?  Where is the proof?  (and a vpd rising after vaccine rates falls is not proof it will rise to pre-vaccine rates, as that has not happened)  Would the disease even be scary now (if it ever was)?  How do you know? The number of most vpds in developed countries are really small - probably too small to gather realistic statistics from.

 

You certainly don't have to embrace it. But I can't ignore the fact that these diseases have not been completely eradicated here much less worldwide, and some were common or at least more common here before vaccines and not all that long ago even when we had good sanitation, nutrition, and health care.

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Old 06-02-2012, 12:57 PM
 
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One of the main reasons , if not THE main reason , why we now have the lucky situation , that many diseases are not so common anymore , is that people were vaccinated on a large scheme for many years . 

But unfortunately , this is changing again , as we have seen in my native Germany , where many people felt , they don´t need to be vaccinated anymore for p . e . measles , which caused a large outbreak a few years ago , with quite a few casualties . 

So , if we continue on this trend of not vaccinating , or renewing our vacciation , numbers of infections are going to rise and so will the number of people dying or being harmed from preventable illnesses. And there are quite a few so - called " harmless childhood " diseases , such as polio , which are crippling and potentially fatal , and where there is no cure to this day , only prevention through vaccination .

Of course , some people will say , that they know someone , who had it and is just fine , but those lucky ones are quite rare , contrary to the people , who had it and are not fine at all !  

Or whooping cough ! EVERY child under a year , that contracts it , has to be hospitalized , because there is a very real risk of them suffocating to death !

Yes , there are risks involved with vaccines , anyone denying that , is either ignorant or uneducated , but there is NO comparison to the very real risk of what can , and probably will , happen , if someone is not vacced against some of the things , that used to kill and in many countries still kill thousands of people every year 

I always made sure , that I had no fever or other sign of infection , before I got my vaccination boosters , and did so with my kids as well and neither of us ever had any problems 

On the contrary , one of the biggest reasons , why people should get vaccinated is , that if you get sick afterwards , you know right away , why you get sick and so does your doctor and if you get vaccinated , while healthy , your body has a much better chance to develop antibodies against the offending illness in a safe and effective manner , as opposed to contracting an illness , while your immune system might be compromised because of something else and giving the disease a good hold on you , wreaking potential havoc !

Plus , the added benefit is , that with a strong and well developed immune system , your risk of developing allergies is a lot lower , than that of a person , whose isn´t ! 


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Old 06-02-2012, 01:07 PM
 
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I am darn sure you are more likely to die in a car accident going to and from the clinic for a CP shot than die from CP - even if you look at pre-vaccine level.

 

 

I'm darn sure you aren't!

 

Of course a child is much, much more likely to die in a car accident than they are to die of chicken pox.  However, the average child takes thousands upon thousands of rides in a car during the period of their childhood but only has chickenpox one time.  

 

 

Warning: very rough math with lots of assumptions to follow, but this is just a message board post, so....

 

According to http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/809762.pdf, in 2003 there were over 60,000,000 kids under the age of 15 living in the US, and 2,136 of them died in car accidents.  Lets say that on average, each of those kids takes one ride in a car every other day* resulting in 30,000,000 car rides for kids each day or 30,000,000 x 365 = 10,950,000,000 rides in cars a year.  That's a lot!  Divide this number by the 2,136 deaths, and you get 1 death for every 5,126,404 car rides.  

 

This page http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/im/vpd-mev/varicella-eng.php has some chickenpox statistics which sound reasonable to me.  For simplicity, I'm going to ignore the higher rate for babies and go with the lowest rate mentioned of 1 death for every 100,000 cases.  

 

Now, let's suppose there were 5,126,404 cases (the number of car rides it takes for a single death) and 1 out of every 100,000 of them died, so 5,126,404/100,000= 51.26

 

So 

 

5,126,404 car rides results in 1 death

5,126,404 cases if chickenpox results in about 51 deaths.  

 

Conclusion: while over all far more kids die in car crashes than from chickenpox, a single car trip to the doctor/clinic is, on average, much safer than a single case of chickenpox.  

 

* Google failed to turn up a useful result on the first two pages, and I've got things to do, so 1 ride every other day was pulled out of my butt.  I thought it was fairly conservative given the amount of shuttling around to daycare/school/sports/music lessons/clubs/shopping/friends houses a lot of kids have, but then a lot of kids also ride the bus or walk to school or have parents who don't drive or some live in cities and only take public transit, so I could be off.  Does it sound reasonable to you?

 

 

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Sadly the existence of the CP vaccine has probably led to an increase in the number of shingles cases.  Shingles is painful and often recurrent.  It is happening to younger people and in increasing numbers.  It is thought that as CP cases decline (yes, due to to vaccines) people are not having their immunity to CP boosted by coming into contact with CP cases.  Here is an article:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1158655/Why-giving-children-chicken-pox-jab-YOU-shingles.html

 

The shingles/chickenpox relationship is complex. The lack of circulating chickenpox could indeed be raising the shingles rate (though whether this is happening already and how bad it will be are not as clear as this article paints it), and that is worth worrying about.  However, what this article doesn't mention is that while vaccination could result in a temporary rise in shingles, widespread use of the vaccine has the potential to lower shingles rates in the long run.  While shingles is rare among kids, there have always been cases of pediatric shingles, and research is showing that kids who get the vaccine are up to five times less likely to develop shingles as kids who have the natural disease. It is expected that this benefit will continue into adulthood, though of course only time will tell.  So while use of the chickenpox vaccine probably will raise shingles rates for my generation who had chickenpox (an effect which could be somewhat mitigated, perhaps, by lowering the age of the shingles vaccine already recommended for the elderly - shingles has always been a problem, even prior to the chickenpox vaccine), but then rates would go down as enough of the at-risk age people had has the vaccine rather than the natural disease. 

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Old 06-02-2012, 01:09 PM
 
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Thanks for starting this thread! It's so nice to see some other mamas on here who vaccinate. I had been feeling quite down because I like this forum so much, and I do breastfeed exclusively, and cloth diaper, and co-sleep, and didn't circumcise, etc. But I'm very scientifically minded and my son will be vaccinated for everything. And I just felt like... I didn't fit in here.

 

You have a good number of studies up so I don't feel like I need to add to them. I just wanted to post to say I'm with you guys!

 

I know. I felt exactly like you when I first joined in. Most Mothering style parenting choices I believe are well based in mainstream scientific research (if not having yet gone mainstream in the population). I actually think that Mothering, in linking itself to anti-vaxers, calls into question all the rest of it's parenting style, which is a massive shame, and it turned me off the community for a while (although I still kept doing everything the way I felt was right!). We all know the world could use more breast fed, co-slept, worn babies, and definitely more cloth diapering! Choosing not to vaccinate has nothing to do with those other choices and we're just as much a part of that natural parenting community. I suspect in fact the silent majority.

 

Have you thoguht about a subtle pro-vax line in your signature. Doesn't need to be the only thing there, but just something to tell other mothers like us that it's OK to be here.   


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Old 06-02-2012, 01:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

Most vaxxers, when they are being honest, say they vax because they think it is best for their children.  It is not to give some sort of gift to society of herd immunity.  That is the side effect of their actions, not the intent (and if it is, ick, your child not should not be put in the position of taking one for the team because you want to support herd immunity)

 

I vaccinate because it's best for my children, but I also do it because I feel it's best for the society we live in. And that connects back to being best for my children.  It's not a side effect. It's intended.  Sorry you find that icky.

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Old 06-02-2012, 01:34 PM
 
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Thanks for the math, pers.  

 

The flaws I see are:

 

-I would need to know how many CP deaths occur in kids that have pre-existing conditions.  I think they should be screened out of the numbers, as we should use kids with no pre-exisitng conditions.  Obviously, the risk profile for a medically fragile child is different from a healthy child.

 

-One car trip every two days?  Round trip? That seems low.  I would say mine average 1 round trip per day, and we are not an exceptionally busy family.  

 

-Does Varicella need a booster - in which case 4 car trips ( 2 round trips) are needed?

 

I do love me some math.

 

I might swallow my words on car trips if your math is correct, but I will not swallow my words on my concern around CP.  It is not a scary disease, and should not be included on the schedule, IMHO. (particularly given the emerging shingles issue).

________________________

 

BTW, my 13 and 16 year old had chicken pox. I agree the vaccine might* eventually mean less shingles - but it is an awfully long wait. We are sacrificing not one but at least 2 generations to higher shingles rates, over a disease that is usually benign in childhood.  Oh, or they could get the Shingles vaccine (Handy!  Wonder if the people who make the CP vax also make the shingles vax?  duck.gif)

 

* I say might because:

-is there any evidence one can get shingles from the varicella vaccine?

-does the varicella vaccine wear off (we might not know yet - as CP vax is fairly new)?

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Old 06-02-2012, 01:35 PM
 
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All 3 of you , Abby Grant , Prosciencemum and Michelle ZB , have really made my day . There have been many posts , where I did not even feel like taking part in the discussion , because I did not want to be " shot at " by the anti - vaccers .

So , thank you for posting here and letting me know , that there are others like me out there !

I am a well - educated , quite critical person , I don´t just blindly accept , whatever a doctor tells me to do , which shows in me fighting and succeeding to have a vba3c , I have bf all of my 6 kids for literally years , I try to buy organic food whenever possible and I vaccinate . Always have , always will !

Why ?  Because I have done my research and because I love my kids and for those reasons , I have chosen to do so !

Yes , I believe in herd immunity and for me the risk of a vaccine - induced problem is a much smaller risk that that of an unvacced child getting a certain disease and suffering the side effects .

No , I don´t believe , non - vaccers don´t love their children and I am sure , they have their reasons to deny their children this crucial part of modern health care , but maybe they should step back and think about the fact , that they can thank those of us , who have been vaccinated , that many horrible and dangerous diseases , that used to cost countless people´s lives , have been in many parts of the World been virtually eradicated , because if the herd immunity we have created !   


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Old 06-02-2012, 01:36 PM
 
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All 3 of you , Abby Grant , Prosciencemum and Michelle ZB , have really made my day . There have been many posts , where I did not even feel like taking part in the discussion , because I did not want to be " shot at " by the anti - vaccers .

 

I can assure you it really goes both ways!!!!!

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Old 06-02-2012, 01:40 PM
 
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All 3 of you , Abby Grant , Prosciencemum and Michelle ZB , have really made my day . There have been many posts , where I did not even feel like taking part in the discussion , because I did not want to be " shot at " by the anti - vaccers .

 

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I can assure you it really goes both ways!!!!!

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Old 06-02-2012, 01:44 PM
 
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Why ?  Because I have done my research and because I love my kids and for those reasons , I have chosen to do so !

Yes , I believe in herd immunity and for me the risk of a vaccine - induced problem is a much smaller risk that that of an unvacced child getting a certain disease and suffering the side effects .

No , I don´t believe , non - vaccers don´t love their children and I am sure , they have their reasons to deny their children this crucial part of modern health care , but maybe they should step back and think about the fact , that they can thank those of us , who have been vaccinated , that many horrible and dangerous diseases , that used to cost countless people´s lives , have been in many parts of the World been virtually eradicated , because if the herd immunity we have created !   

 

You should reword the bolded.  It is really offensive.  That is about as non-shooty as I can get wink1.gif

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Old 06-02-2012, 01:57 PM
 
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Sorry , if I offended some people , but there have been quite a few occasions , when people on this forum told me , that I am basically an idiot if I vaccinate my kids and if I loved them , I wouldn´t ! 

However , if you read my post thoroughly , you will see , that I DID NOT say , others ( non - vaccers ) don´t love their children , I simply stated MY side of the discussion and for me that is " I love my kids , that is why I vaccinate " .

Others on Mothering say " I love my kids and that is , why I don´t ! " 

And the herd immunity is something , even non - vaccers have agreed to , that they don´t have to worry about their kids or themselves contracting certain diseases , because there are so many people , who have been vacced for so many years , that they are virtually gone ( the diseases I mean )  

So , that is not an attack on my side , it´s simply a statement ! 

And one many people on this forum agree with ! Plus , personally , I don´t have a problem anymore with others putting me down , I will never stop vaccinating and I really believe in the benefits , if others reap the benefit from my action and by me contributing to herd immunity , even better ! 


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Old 06-02-2012, 02:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

You should reword the bolded.  It is really offensive.  That is about as non-shooty as I can get wink1.gif

 

If you're going to say "ick" about people who consider society in their decision, then you really shouldn't critique others about being offensive. If you can dish it out....

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Old 06-02-2012, 02:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by tonttu View Post

Sorry , if I offended some people , but there have been quite a few occasions , when people on this forum told me , that I am basically an idiot if I vaccinate my kids and if I loved them , I wouldn´t ! 

However , if you read my post thoroughly , you will see , that I DID NOT say , others ( non - vaccers ) don´t love their children , I simply stated MY side of the discussion and for me that is " I love my kids , that is why I vaccinate " .

Others on Mothering say " I love my kids and that is , why I don´t ! " 

And the herd immunity is something , even non - vaccers have agreed to , that they don´t have to worry about their kids or themselves contracting certain diseases , because there are so many people , who have been vacced for so many years , that they are virtually gone ( the diseases I mean )  

So , that is not an attack on my side , it´s simply a statement ! 

And one many people on this forum agree with ! Plus , personally , I don´t have a problem anymore with others putting me down , I will never stop vaccinating and I really believe in the benefits , if others reap the benefit from my action and by me contributing to herd immunity , even better ! 

I think it's great that you feel confident in your decision to vaccinate. I wonder though how you don't see that your previous post could be seen as offensive? 

 

I'm just curious do you vaccinate on the Scandinavian schedule or the US schedule or another schedule? 


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Old 06-02-2012, 02:22 PM
 
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Well , my 4 oldest on the German vaccine schedule until we moved to Scandinavia in early 2000 , the last 2 on Scandinavian from the start ! But they are quite similar anyway ! Why ? 


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Old 06-02-2012, 02:42 PM
 
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No real reason - just curiosity since you live outside of the US. You're right - they are similar with some differences. One difference being that it appears Hep B is only recommended for high risk groups on the Scandinavian schedule but on the US schedule Hep B is routinely done. Anyways - I know this is off topic... carry on


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Old 06-02-2012, 02:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post

Quote: Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama So, 60% of my immune system was entirely used up by the vaccines I received as a child, and is irreplaceable? Then, every time I get sick 10% is used up? So, after getting all my vaccines, and being sick 4 more times I'll have ZERO immune system left? You do see how ridiculous this is right? No, no silly! They get used up in a logarithmic fashion! 1/x will approach 0, but never actually reach it!!! See, now it's clear, right?

Now I need to know logarithms to discuss vaccines? Crap, I studied those AGES ago! Off to find my old math texts...
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Old 06-02-2012, 02:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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That's not just because we're shot happy. There are differences in the populations of the two countries.
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Old 06-02-2012, 02:56 PM
 
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Why can't we agree that we love our children, so we research, think about the costs and benefits, and make our decision based upon that?  And still have it come out differently?  And still be good, loving parents?

 

Can we make different decisions based on the same information and agree to disagree?  (Though that might not be much fun!)

 

Why is having two different outcomes from the same information (assuming it's the same) such a problem?

 

Folks posting on the forums does not equal any stance Mothering takes on vaccinations.  So, if there is any seeming imbalance, it is nothing in the design.

 

Yeah, bringing up "I love my children so I vaccinate" is incendiary whether you believe it to be or not.  And mentioning "taking it for the team" is sarcastic whether it is meant to be or not.


"Let me see you stripped down to the bone. Let me hear you speaking just for me."
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Old 06-02-2012, 02:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Isn't that what she said? I'm sure non vaccinating parents love their kids too?
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