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#121 of 713 Old 06-03-2012, 12:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post

what's your explanation for why autism keeps increasing, even though thimerosol has been removed?  

 

The latest CDC figure for autism--1 in 88, is from 8 year olds in 2008. So they were born in 2000, before thimerosal was removed.

 

But it will never be clear cut, even 10 years from now, because as thimerosal was being removed from most pediatric vaccines, the CDC began promoting flu shots (no preference for mercury free doses) to pregnant women and babies starting at 6 months. So the exposure to thimerosal began at an earlier age (as developing fetuses). In 2009 and 2010, many pregnant women got injected with 50 mcg mercury (25 mcg from the regular flu shot and 25 mcg from the H1N1 flu shot).

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#122 of 713 Old 06-03-2012, 12:58 PM
 
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"No, chickenpox is not a particularly scary disease, but that does not mean it is not worth trying to prevent.  More than a hundred kids used to die a year from the disease - is that too few to bother trying to save?"

 

 

Yes it is if the cost of "saving" these 100 kids is the lives of 1000 other kids.

 

All invasive medicine is about RISK versus reward. The Vaccine Industry ignores most risk and over sells reward.

 

NOTHING is more invasive than injecting toxins into your body.

I thought this was an interesting read from a non-vax perspective on vaccine versus disease.

 

There seem to be a lot of reports to VAERS concerning chicken pox vaccines reactions.

 

http://www.nvic.org/nvic-archives/pressrelease/pressrelease9132000.aspx

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#123 of 713 Old 06-03-2012, 01:00 PM
 
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Taking the mercury out of many vaccines albeit slowly in 1999 was a move in the right direction, but still keeping 25 mcg of mercury in flu shots is crazily stupid. 

They did not actually begin in 1999. That's when they started thinking about it.

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#124 of 713 Old 06-03-2012, 01:31 PM
 
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VAERS is self reported (reports are not compulsory) and reports are unverified. It is a very, very poor tool for judging the number of complaints. In addition there is no proof required. All you have to do is fill out a form. There's a famous incident of a VAERS report done as a stunt:

 

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The chief problem with the VAERS data is that reports can be entered by anyone and are not routinely verified. To demonstrate this, a few years ago I entered a report that an influenza vaccine had turned me into The Hulk. The report was accepted and entered into the database.

 

Because the reported adverse event was so… unusual, a representative of VAERS contacted me. After a discussion of the VAERS database and its limitations, they asked for my permission to delete the record, which I granted. If I had not agreed, the record would be there still, showing that any claim can become part of the database, no matter how outrageous or improbable.

 

In some cases, VAERS does show clusters, such as the intussusception following Rotashield (although there are questions about whether it was truly caused by the vaccine). However, groups also encourage people to report absolutely anything that occurs after vaccine administration to VAERS. Since these reports are not verified, we have no idea how many of the complaints were truly caused by vaccines.


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#125 of 713 Old 06-03-2012, 02:18 PM
 
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VAERS is self reported (reports are not compulsory) and reports are unverified. It is a very, very poor tool for judging the number of complaints. In addition there is no proof required. All you have to do is fill out a form. 

 

 

I know this. I would still think high reports of one vaccine over another might have merit.  VAERS is not completely useless in my mind.  

 

Do you know of another tool for reporting vaccine reactions?

 

The CDC list of risks for the varicella vaccine was really lame.  It said  seizures and pneumonia were very rare reactions (two of the more severe reactions listed).  It would be nice to have some numbers so people can make a decision around vaxxing.

 

For what it is worth for any lurkers considering the vax, it seems safer to do varicella separately from MMR.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/varicella.html

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#126 of 713 Old 06-03-2012, 02:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I think vaers is a good place to start. I would rather see too many reactions reported to vaers than not enough. Cupped with things like vsd I think we do a pretty good job monitoring vaccine safety (yes, I know several of you think that makes me insane).
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#127 of 713 Old 06-03-2012, 02:58 PM
 
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Mine, too.  And I do not begrudge it - even the money that goes towards vaxxes wink1.gif  I like health care to be free even if I do not use it.

 

I am not sure why you mentioned education.  I am not sure what point you are trying to make.

 

You can follow the vaccine schedule if you want.  As a non-vaxxer, I do not really care if individuals choose to vax or not. I understand people can look at the same research and come to different conclusion for their family.   I care, deeply, that people do not feel forced to vax and that people can make an informed choice on the matter.  

 

Glad to explain! I was responding to a comment made earlier in the thread. Somebody said that people choose to vaccinate or not based on their own child's needs only, and that nobody takes the common good into consideration when they make their decision. I was just pointing out that it wasn't true: I was one of those people who considered society as a whole in deciding to vaccinate! The reason why I mentioned education and healthcare is because they were other examples where I think we sort of pool together resources for everyone's benefit.

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#128 of 713 Old 06-03-2012, 03:35 PM
 
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Got it, Michelle.  Thanks for the clarification. smile.gif

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#129 of 713 Old 06-03-2012, 03:47 PM
 
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Wildkingdom-

Please edit your post.  We do not allow namecalling. 

 

Anyone else who has quoted Wildkingdom, please go ahead and delete that out of your posts as well.

 

Please keep the disagreements respectful. 


 
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#130 of 713 Old 06-03-2012, 04:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by QueenOfTheMeadow View Post

Wildkingdom-

Please edit your post.  We do not allow namecalling. 

 

Anyone else who has quoted Wildkingdom, please go ahead and delete that out of your posts as well.

 

Please keep the disagreements respectful. 

 

But it's OK for him to call Rachel a Pharma shill?  I'll be glad to edit if he has to, also.

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#131 of 713 Old 06-03-2012, 04:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ma2two View Post

 

The latest CDC figure for autism--1 in 88, is from 8 year olds in 2008. So they were born in 2000, before thimerosal was removed.

 

But it will never be clear cut, even 10 years from now, because as thimerosal was being removed from most pediatric vaccines, the CDC began promoting flu shots (no preference for mercury free doses) to pregnant women and babies starting at 6 months. So the exposure to thimerosal began at an earlier age (as developing fetuses). In 2009 and 2010, many pregnant women got injected with 50 mcg mercury (25 mcg from the regular flu shot and 25 mcg from the H1N1 flu shot).


And before the Tdap was the preferred form of tetanus booster for adults, almost every adult that got a tetanus booster got 25 mcg thimerasol as well, either from the TT or adult Td if they chose to get a booster every 10 years or they went to the ER with any wound that the doctors thought might be a tetanus risk.  This included pregnant and breastfeeding women.


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#132 of 713 Old 06-03-2012, 05:47 PM
 
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But it's OK for him to call Rachel a Pharma shill?  I'll be glad to edit if he has to, also.

Missed that, thanks.  I was just responding to a report.  sigh.   What post specifically is that one in?  My head hurts and I don't think I can take a look through every single post for nastyness without going into a full blown migraine. 

 

Any name calling whatsoever needs to be edit out.  Everyone needs to read through their posts, and edit it out. 

 

It is possible to disagree and argue without accusations and calling people names.  The vaccination forums have become a den for nastiness, and it needs to stop.  If I were a new member looking for information on either side of this debate, I would have run screaming. 


 
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#133 of 713 Old 06-03-2012, 05:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The percentage of people that get a flue shot is very low and many pregnant women get the thimerosol free version. If the thimerosol is causing it there should still be a significant drop of.
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#134 of 713 Old 06-03-2012, 06:05 PM
 
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Missed that, thanks.  I was just responding to a report.  sigh.   What post specifically is that one in?  My head hurts and I don't think I can take a look through every single post for nastyness without going into a full blown migraine. 

 

Any name calling whatsoever needs to be edit out.  Everyone needs to read through their posts, and edit it out. 

 

It is possible to disagree and argue without accusations and calling people names.  The vaccination forums have become a den for nastiness, and it needs to stop.  If I were a new member looking for information on either side of this debate, I would have run screaming. 

 

It's in the post immediately before mine.  I quoted it.  He tells Rachel that she sounds like an anonymous pharma shill.  That's what I was responding to. 

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#135 of 713 Old 06-03-2012, 07:06 PM
 
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If mercury in vaccines caused the "autism epidemic," why hasn't there been a drop in autism since it was taken out? 

I have directly answered this SEVERAL times, so I don't know why you keep pretending you don't understand.

 

First of all, thimerosal wasn't "taken out" of vaccines, as you put it.  Thimerosal-free, single-use-vial vaccines began to be manufactured in 2001 to replace the thimerosal-preserved pediatric vaccines.  The thimerosal-preserved pediatric vaccines continued to be distributed and used in the US for as long as the shelf life was good.  Many of us have reported that our pediatricians were still using them in 2004.

 

The current 1/88 rate of autism, as reported by the CDC, is based on children born in 2000, and diagnosed by 2008.  Those children would have received the more thimerosal-preserved vaccines than children ever studied before, because the thimerosal-free vaccines were not yet widely available in 2000 and 2001--which is when those children would have received most of their vaccines.

 

In addition, the flu shot began appearing on the recommended schedule for children starting in 2004--and the flu shots were NOT widely available in thimerosal-free form, nor did the CDC mandate thimerosal-free vaccines for children.  

 

Some doctors use adult vaccine formulations (i.e., thimerosal-preserved) for older children, as they are less expensive.

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#136 of 713 Old 06-03-2012, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I already explained the flu shot thing I don't know why you're acting like you don't understand.
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#137 of 713 Old 06-03-2012, 07:27 PM
 
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Taxi, even if thimerosol (sp?) vaxers were still being used, that doesn't mean that all children only received thimerosol vaccines. Peds probably used up what they had, and then started using the newer ones.
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#138 of 713 Old 06-03-2012, 08:17 PM
 
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Rrrrrachael, you are dodging the fact that children born in 2000 DID receive thimerosal-preserved vaccines.

It is totally misleading to suggest that the 2012 autism rate should be lower due to discontinued use of thimerosal, when thimerosal had not yet been discontinued. Those children did NOT receive less thimerosal than children born in previous years.
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#139 of 713 Old 06-03-2012, 08:20 PM
 
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I was under the impression that "thimerisol-free" is not actually completely free of it, just dramatically lowered.  

 

???????


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#140 of 713 Old 06-03-2012, 08:50 PM
 
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Super-Single-Mama, thimerosal-free vaccines began being produced in 20001.

Vaccine manufacturers continued to sell and distribute pediatric multi-use vials, and pediatricians continued to use them, for as long as their shelf life allowed.

Our pediatrician was still using them in 2004.

As pediatric DTaP and HepB vaccines were reformulated without thimerosal, Prevnar, pneumococcal, varicella, and flu shots were added to the schedule4. Most flu shots contained thimerosal; FluMist, which never contained thimerosal, was contraindicated for children under30 3 and pregnant women. Most of the other vaccines on the schedule contain aluminum adjuvants.
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#141 of 713 Old 06-03-2012, 08:56 PM
 
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I was under the impression that "thimerisol-free" is not actually completely free of it, just dramatically lowered.  

 

???????

Most pediatric vaccines, with the big exception of flu shots, are now thimerosal free. This chart shows which vaccines still have "trace" amounts of mercury (0.3 mcg), indicated by the * with the underline.

http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm The full amount of mercury is 25 mcg. Don't be fooled by the .01% in the thimerosal column. That looks like a small amount, but move over to the mercury column, and it translates to 25 mcg mercury.

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#142 of 713 Old 06-03-2012, 09:00 PM
 
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The percentage of people that get a flue shot is very low and many pregnant women get the thimerosol free version. If the thimerosol is causing it there should still be a significant drop of.

Rrrrrachel, if thimerosal is a factor in autism, we would not yet have seen a significant drop off because the CDC has not yet studied children born AFTER thimerosal-free pediatric vaccines were in full use.

In addition, thimerosal used in conjunction with aluminum may exponentially increase reactions, and several new aluminum-adjuvanted vaccines were added to the schedule.

Flu shot uptake has dramatically decreased in the last couple of years, but uptake was very high before that, due to aggressive marketing (such as the h1n1fiasco, and the brilliant tactic of announcing a flu shot shortage in 2004).
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#143 of 713 Old 06-03-2012, 09:12 PM
 
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If the thimerosol is causing it there should still be a significant drop of.

See my post #122. Also, several of Taximom's posts. It's public record and absolutely no secret that the CDC's most recent autism statistics are from kids born in 2000, before any change was made to the amount of thimerosal in vaccines.

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#144 of 713 Old 06-04-2012, 04:32 AM
 
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Missed that, thanks.  I was just responding to a report.  sigh.   What post specifically is that one in?  My head hurts and I don't think I can take a look through every single post for nastyness without going into a full blown migraine. 

 

Any name calling whatsoever needs to be edit out.  Everyone needs to read through their posts, and edit it out. 

 

It is possible to disagree and argue without accusations and calling people names.  The vaccination forums have become a den for nastiness, and it needs to stop.  If I were a new member looking for information on either side of this debate, I would have run screaming. 

Thank you!


 
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#145 of 713 Old 06-04-2012, 04:45 AM - Thread Starter
 
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There are several studies that show the actual rate of autism hasn't changed, but it's just diagnosed more now. I've posted them before. I guess we'll see what happens over the next few years. I think it's interesting the excuse of the flu hot is already being prepared, even though compliance has ALWAYS been low and many children and pregnant women get the thimerosol free version.
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#146 of 713 Old 06-04-2012, 04:47 AM
 
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The percentage of people that get a flue shot is very low and many pregnant women get the thimerosol free version. If the thimerosol is causing it there should still be a significant drop of.

Rrrrrachel, if thimerosal is a factor in autism, we would not yet have seen a significant drop off because the CDC has not yet studied children born AFTER thimerosal-free pediatric vaccines were in full use.

In addition, thimerosal used in conjunction with aluminum may exponentially increase reactions, and several new aluminum-adjuvanted vaccines were added to the schedule.

Flu shot uptake has dramatically decreased in the last couple of years, but uptake was very high before that, due to aggressive marketing (such as the h1n1fiasco, and the brilliant tactic of announcing a flu shot shortage in 2004).

 

How many pediatricians continued using thimerosal preserved vaccines after the thimerosal free vaccines were available? Do you have that information? Because without it, we don't know when we would expect to see a significant drop off in the autism rates if autism is in fact caused by vaccines (which it isn't).

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#147 of 713 Old 06-04-2012, 04:49 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I also think its interesting we're assuming the children born in 2000 were expose to just as much thimerosol as other children. Seems like at worst thy would've been exposed to less (since it began being removed in 1999) yet the autism rate is higher.
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#148 of 713 Old 06-04-2012, 05:03 AM - Thread Starter
 
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And of course let's not forget the multiple studies and iom report rejecting a connection between thimerosol and autism.

It's also really interesting to look at the chart of when various childhood vaccines were certified thimerosol free. Leaving aside the flu shot, only three brands (infanrix, pediarix, tripedia) ever contained thimerosol and it was just a trace. Two of the three were certified thimerosol free in 2001 or earlier.
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#149 of 713 Old 06-04-2012, 05:06 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Whoops, I missed engerix (certified thimerosol free in 2000), so that makes four brands. Of the flu shots 4 of 8 are thimerosol free since 2004 or earlier, only one ever contained thimerosol, one more contains a trace.
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#150 of 713 Old 06-04-2012, 05:09 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Super, I don't have that information but it seems reasonable to me that they didn't all just carry on just as before, so I assume there were fewer thimerosol containing vaccines give than before (and, of course, there weren't that many to begin with)
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