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#1 of 126 Old 06-10-2012, 06:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22658806.1

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#2 of 126 Old 06-10-2012, 07:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22658806.1

That link just redirects me to a "Welcome to PubMed" page--no study, no info.

Try again? Or quote the abstract of the study you found?
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#3 of 126 Old 06-10-2012, 09:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post


That link just redirects me to a "Welcome to PubMed" page--no study, no info.
Try again? Or quote the abstract of the study you found?

That's weird. It worked for me.

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#4 of 126 Old 06-11-2012, 01:48 AM
 
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I got the same page as Taximom.

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#5 of 126 Old 06-11-2012, 04:39 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Huh.  I clicked the link - it worked for me.

 

Here is the title:

 

 

Prenatal exposure to organomercury, thimerosal, persistently impairs the serotonergic and dopaminergic systems in the rat brain: Implications for association with developmental disorders.

 

Here is another link to the abstract - I don't know if anyone can get at the full text:

 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0387760412001180

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#6 of 126 Old 06-11-2012, 07:02 PM
 
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Thanks, Kathy--that one worked.

Holy heck. I'm amazed--not at the abstract or conclusion, but that they managed to get it published.

Maybe science is finally on the right track....
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#7 of 126 Old 06-11-2012, 07:04 PM
 
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Before they bury this one:
Prenatal exposure to organomercury, thimerosal, persistently impairs the serotonergic and dopaminergic systems in the rat brain: Implications for association with developmental disorders
Michiru Ida-Etoa, , , Akiko Oyabua, Takeshi Ohkawaraa, Yasura Tashiroa, Naoko Naritab, Masaaki Naritaa
a Department of Anatomy II, Mie University Graduate School of Medicine, Tsu, Mie 514-8507, Japan
b Department of Education, Bunkyo University, Koshigaya, Saitama 343-8511, Japan
Received 8 November 2011. Revised 2 May 2012. Accepted 3 May 2012. Available online 1 June 2012.
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.braindev.2012.05.004

Abstract
Thimerosal, an organomercury compound, has been widely used as a preservative. Therefore, concerns have been raised about its neurotoxicity. We recently demonstrated perturbation of early serotonergic development by prenatal exposure to thimerosal (Ida-Eto et al. (2011) [11]). Here, we investigated whether prenatal thimerosal exposure causes persistent impairment after birth. Analysis on postnatal day 50 showed significant increase in hippocampal serotonin following thimerosal administration on embryonic day 9. Furthermore, not only serotonin, striatal dopamine was significantly increased. These results indicate that embryonic exposure to thimerosal produces lasting impairment of brain monoaminergic system, and thus every effort should be made to avoid the use of thimerosal.
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#8 of 126 Old 06-12-2012, 02:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

Before they bury this one:
 

 

I'm curious who you think "they" are - I guess pharmaceutical companies? But "they've" already removed thimerosol from all shots for newborns, and pregnant women can request thimerosol free flu shots (and are recommended to do so in most cases), so what benefit would burying this have? 

 

I don't have access to the text. 

 

 I looked up some definitions, as a lot of that abstract was pretty dense scientific language, and I would like to understand what this study is and the significance of it if I can. 

 

So: 

 

serotonergic development 

 

(From wikipedia) Serotonergic means "related to the neurotransmitter serotonin". A neurotransmitter is a chemical which sends signals from your brain to your cells to tell them what to do. Serotonin is one of these, and "It is popularly thought to be a contributor to feelings of well-being and happiness.". 

 

So this statement "serotonergic development" means the development of the chemical which helps transmit feelings of well being (or way too oversimplified?). 

 

hippocampal serotonin

 

(Again wikipedia - I love it!). 

 

The hippocampus is a part of the brain.  It's the bit which relates to long/short term memories and is often found  to be damaged in people with Alzaimers/memory loss. So this is serotonin (see above) found in that part of the brain. 

 

 So an increase in serotonin in this part of the brain means what? 

 

striatal dopamine

 

The striatum is another part of the brain. It seems to mostly have to do with planning movement, but also can have a link to memory function. Parkinsons and Huntington's disease seem to be linked to damage in this area. 

 

Dopamine is a chemical in the body. It's main function is in reward benefits - a lot of recreational drugs increase dopamine which feels really nice, so that gets addictive. 

 

So an increase in dopamine in the striatum.... what does that mean? 

 

brain monoaminergic system

 

So monoaminergic seems to be a collective term for things like serotonin and dopamine - these chemicals which transmit information in the brain. 

 

So the conclusion is thimerosol injected into rat embryos causes them to develop these chemicals differently than the rats which didn't have this. 

 

I can't see the full text, but I can see the caption of the first figure, which implies all the pregnant rats in the study had thimerosol injected. One group had 0.1 mgHg/kg and the other 0.01 mgHg/kg, and they refer to the latter as the control. Am I misunderstanding that?

 

"Fig. 1. Monoamine levels in control vs. thimerosal-exposed rats (ng/g weight). Different doses of thimerosal (0.1, and 0.01 mgHg/kg) were administered to E9 pregnant rats, and then allowed to have pups. On P50, concentrations of hippocampal serotonin and striatal dopamine were measured by HPLC. Values are mean ± SEM. p < 0.05 vs. control;∗∗< 0.01 vs. control."

 

The four types of flu vaccine in 2011/2012 which contain thimerosol contain 0.025 mgHg per dose (http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/vaccines.htm)  - for a typical pregnant woman weighing 70 kg, that works out to 0.0004 mgHg/kg for pregnant women. So they have less thimerosol than the control in this study. Think I might have found my reason not to worry about it (well apart from the fact that you can avoid all thimersol now if you wish). 

 

Still it was interesting learning/reminding myself of all those biology words, so thanks for posting it. :) 

 


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#9 of 126 Old 06-12-2012, 02:29 PM
 
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Some places pregnant women had been/will be offered thimerasol containing vaccines are: Flu shots (especially last years H1N1 shots). Many, many pregnant women do not know to advocate for themselves to get a preservative free shot. Anecdotally (working in the midwifery world and having many preggie friends) I have first hand experience to that fact. I know many pregnant women who had no idea some flu shots had thimerasol in them. Two: If a pregnant woman goes into the ER with a deep wound they will usually offer Tdap for a tetanus booster...Usually. But some women will be offered adult Td or TT (or have to request them due to previous reactions to the pertussis component of the combined shot, and both have thimerasol in them. A few weeks ago there was a post from a BF mama who had that same situation. Good thing she wasn't pregnant...

So yes, most pregnant women will not come into contact with thimerasol, but a handful will. And IMO, even one prenatal exposure is unacceptable.

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#10 of 126 Old 06-12-2012, 02:49 PM
 
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Sure, but did you see the end of my post - the control sample in the rats were given 25 times more thimerosol than is in the flu shots with thimerosol (when corrected for typical body weight). The ones who showed an effect relative to those controls were given almost 250 times the amount which is in the flu shot with thimerosol. So pregnant rats given 250 times the amount of thimerosol in the thimerosol containing flu vaccines show effects relative to those given 25 times the amount in the thimerosol containing flu vaccines.  

 

Unless I did my maths wrong because it's bedtime. 

 

I don't know the thimerosol content of the tetanus shots.  

 

I also don't really understand the significance of the effects they saw. I'd love someone more up on brain biology to chime in. :) 


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#11 of 126 Old 06-12-2012, 03:11 PM
 
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There is still so much we don't know about brain functioning but serotonin and dopamine disruption have been linked to SIDS, Parkinson's diseases, schizophrenia, depression and anxiety disorders. I suspect there are more but those are the ones I know of.

Have you ever searched the primal health research database? This is the sort of research they are compiling.

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#12 of 126 Old 06-12-2012, 04:26 PM
 
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I wasn't responding to the link (haven't had time to read it, packing for a trip) just to the claim that it is easy for a pregnant woman to avoid thimerasol. But without reading anything, and my own anti-animal testing feelings aside, rat studies do not equal human studies. Lab rats aren't kept alive long enough to observe them for long term effects, and behavioral changes would be quite hard to discern in rats, unless they were severe. So I think a lot of things could get overlooked. The adult TT has a full 25 mcg dose of thimerasol. I don't know about the adult Td, I think it's the same but not 100% positive.

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#13 of 126 Old 06-12-2012, 07:47 PM
 
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Sometimes even when people request thimerosal free flu shots, they still get the thimerosal without knowing it. I was at a drugstore when they were having a flu shot clinic. I asked the nurses giving the shots if they had mercury. They swore to me that they didn't. They couldn't believe it when I pointed it out in the package insert. And yes, they were multi-dose vials. This was Mollen Immunization Clinics, which gives flu shots nationwide.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Sure, but did you see the end of my post - the control sample in the rats were given 25 times more thimerosol than is in the flu shots with thimerosol (when corrected for typical body weight). The ones who showed an effect relative to those controls were given almost 250 times the amount which is in the flu shot with thimerosol. So pregnant rats given 250 times the amount of thimerosol in the thimerosol containing flu vaccines show effects relative to those given 25 times the amount in the thimerosol containing flu vaccines.  

Unless I did my maths wrong because it's bedtime. 

I don't know the thimerosol content of the tetanus shots.  

I also don't really understand the significance of the effects they saw. I'd love someone more up on brain biology to chime in. smile.gif 
Since thimerosal crosses the placenta, I don't think the pregnant woman' body weight is the issue here; it's the fetus that is at risk for the neurological effects.
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#15 of 126 Old 06-12-2012, 08:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ma2two View Post

Sometimes even when people request thimerosal free flu shots, they still get the thimerosal without knowing it. I was at a drugstore when they were having a flu shot clinic. I asked the nurses giving the shots if they had mercury. They swore to me that they didn't. They couldn't believe it when I pointed it out in the package insert. And yes, they were multi-dose vials. This was Mollen Immunization Clinics, which gives flu shots nationwide.
Your experience is not unique. Many medical professionals are unaware that multi-use vaccine vials are preserved with thimerosal.
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#16 of 126 Old 06-12-2012, 10:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post


Since thimerosal crosses the placenta, I don't think the pregnant woman' body weight is the issue here; it's the fetus that is at risk for the neurological effects.

 

OK. But even then - the rat fetus is clearly much smaller than the human fetus. My best guess - about the same ratio in weight between the pregnant rat and a human, and a rat and human fetus, but I have no actual information!

 

nukuspot - I totally agree animal studies may not translate to identical human effects.  

 

25 mcg is the same amount of thimerosol per dose in the multi-vial flu shots, so all my maths works for that vaccines too. :) 


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#17 of 126 Old 06-12-2012, 11:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

25 mcg is the same amount of thimerosol per dose in the multi-vial flu shots, 

There is 25 mcg mercury per dose, not 25 mcg thimerosal.

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#18 of 126 Old 06-13-2012, 08:31 AM
 
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There is 25 mcg mercury per dose, not 25 mcg thimerosal.

 

 

 Oh right. Is that was the mgHg units mean - micro grammes of mercury, in the study we're discussing. In which case I used lazy language, but I think I was comparing the right sets of numbers. Thanks for the clarification. 


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#19 of 126 Old 06-13-2012, 09:01 AM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Is that was the mgHg units mean - micro grammes of mercury, in the study we're discussing. 

No, mg means milligram. mcg means microgram. 1 mg = 1,000 mcg.

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#20 of 126 Old 06-13-2012, 11:59 AM
 
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No, mg means milligram. mcg means microgram. 1 mg = 1,000 mcg.

You're quite right. I'm not doing myself favour with the maths am I. That's what I meant. I was coming to edit. But the mgHg means milligrammes of mercury? 

 

In any case the rat study control is 0.01 mgHg/kg, while the high sample is 0.1 mgHg/kg. 

 

This compares to 25mcgHg per dose of flu shot (where there is any), which for a 70kg woman is 0.0004mgHg/kg (converting mcg to mg to give 0.025 mcgHg and dividing by 70kp for 0.004mgHg/kg). 

 

 So I did the maths right, even if I write it down wrong! ;) 


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#21 of 126 Old 06-13-2012, 01:08 PM
 
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Yes mgHg = milligrams of mercury

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#22 of 126 Old 06-13-2012, 08:31 PM
 
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The amount of thimerosal in PolyPred eyedrops was enough to cause a 2-week reaction for me.

The amount of thimerosal in a single flu shot was enough to cause a simliarly severe reaction--twice.

Receiving 4 shots, 3 of which were preserved with thimerosal, was enough to trigger 2 separate autoimmune disorders for me.

I had no underlying health conditions for any of those vacciations. I was healthy, well-nourished, and in excellent physical shape at the time of vaccination.

My children's reactions to vaccines were WORSE than mine.

These reactions happened with vaccines that contained thimerosal--and also with vaccines that contained aluminum.

You can put up all the studies you want, supposedly showing that thimerosal is safe, or that the amount used is safe.

I could find 1000 heavy smokers who are cancer-free, and claim that tobacco doesn't cause health problems, even though I know it's not true.

I continue to find it both amazing and disturbing, that people keep posting how safe thimerosal is. The independent studies make it clear that it iis extremely damaging. In addition, I have posted my own experiences--as well as the fact that my own experiences are not unique.

I'm afraid that, like me, the vast majority of mothers who vaccinate will not realize how common the serious reactions are until their child has one--and even then, like me, they might not get it until it's too late.

I started out believing that vaccines were safe, and that my doctor wouldn't recommend them unless he was sure that a serious reaction was not going to happen.

How very wrong I was.
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#23 of 126 Old 06-13-2012, 09:05 PM
 
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Interesting...I was severely allergic to Walgreens brand contact solution in the early 90s.  The eye doctor said it was because of the thimerasol.  My eyes swelled up.  I forgot contact solution used to contain it.


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#24 of 126 Old 06-14-2012, 05:21 AM - Thread Starter
 
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There seems to be this idea floating around that "the dose makes the poison".  To be specific, thimerosal is present in tiny amounts, so we do not need to worry about it.

 

I am not sure it is that simple.  

 

Here is an article that explores the pros and cons to the issue of "the dose makes the poison"

http://www.actionbioscience.org/environment/trautmann.html

 

On the cons side we have two points that cause me to question "the dose is in the poison"

 

-there is variety among species and there is variety in sensitivity among single species.  Fetuses and infants are more sensitive to certain toxins - yet we do not always know the safety level of how toxins relate to fetuses and infants.

 

-not all chemicals are created equal.  Some are toxic even in tiny doses.

 

 

Of course, the question is whether thimerosal is dangerous to pregnant women and their fetuses.  My opinion: the body of evidence seems to suggest caution wrt to thimerosal and pregnancy.  Given that non-thimerosal flu vaccines exist, I think only non-thim vaccines should be given to pregnant women.  I do not think they should have to ask for non-thimersoal vaccines.  Producers of vaccines can be given time to increase their stock of non-thim vaccines.  

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#25 of 126 Old 06-14-2012, 10:20 AM
 
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Given that non-thimerosal flu vaccines exist, I think only non-thim vaccines should be given to pregnant women.  I do not think they should have to ask for non-thimersoal vaccines.  

I totally agree. Unfortunately, the U.S. government has refused to state a preference for infants, children, and pregnant women to receive mercury free vaccines.

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I totally agree. Unfortunately, the U.S. government has refused to state a preference for infants, children, and pregnant women to receive mercury free vaccines.

 

I knew nothing about thimerosal when I got a flu shot in 2009 when I was pregnant with my second.  I have no idea if it contained thimerosal or not, and the doc never said anything about it.


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#27 of 126 Old 06-16-2012, 03:53 AM
 
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I totally agree. Unfortunately, the U.S. government has refused to state a preference for infants, children, and pregnant women to receive mercury free vaccines.

 

I don't think this is a fair or true statement about US government agency opinions on thimerosol. The FDA has guidelines on thimerosol in vaccines (http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228) they ran a safety study in 1999: 

 

 

 

Quote:

FDA has been actively addressing the issue of thimerosal as a preservative in vaccines. Under the FDA Modernization Act (FDAMA) of 1997, the FDA conducted a comprehensive review of the use of thimerosal in childhood vaccines. Conducted in 1999, this review found no evidence of harm from the use of thimerosal as a vaccine preservative, other than local hypersensitivity reactions (Ball et al. 2001).

 

 

despite the lack of any evidence of danger in that review, the FDA still recommended that it be removed/reduced in all vaccines in 1999 "just in case" they had missed something: 

 

 

 

Quote:
As a precautionary measure, the Public Health Service (including the FDA, National Institutes of Health (NIH), Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and Health Resources and Services Administration (HRSA) and the American Academy of Pediatrics issued two Joint Statements, urging vaccine manufacturers to reduce or eliminate thimerosal in vaccines as soon as possible (CDC 1999) and (CDC 2000).

 

That link has a discussion about the effectiveness of that recommendation, and there is no thimerosol in almost all routinely recommended childhood vaccinations in 2012 (table at that link with actual thimerosol content of all of them - it's also interesting to me that is says in that table that many forumulations never had any thimerosol...). 

 

They also say at this link that: 

 

 

 

Quote:
The FDA is continuing its efforts to reduce the exposure of infants, children, and pregnant women to mercury from various sources. Discussions with the manufacturers of influenza virus vaccines (which are now routinely recommended for pregnant women and children 6-23 months of age) regarding their capacity to potentially increase the supply of thimerosal-reduced and thimerosal-free presentations are ongoing.

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#28 of 126 Old 06-16-2012, 04:09 AM
 
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Sorry double post. Mothering.com is slow for me today.

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#29 of 126 Old 06-16-2012, 11:01 AM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post
I don't think this is a fair or true statement about US government agency opinions on thimerosol. 

Perhaps I should have specified flu shots when I wrote, "the U.S. government has refused to state a preference for infants, children, and pregnant women to receive mercury free vaccines."

 

This is from 

Prevention and Control of Influenza with Vaccines

Recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP), 2010

 

 

(Under the heading, Pregnant and Postpartum Women)

"No preference is indicated for use of TIV that does not contain thimerosal as a preservative"

 

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5908a1.htm

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OK, but the FDA say (from my previous post)

 

 

 

Quote:
The FDA is continuing its efforts to reduce the exposure of infants, children, and pregnant women to mercury from various sources. Discussions with the manufacturers of influenza virus vaccines (which are now routinely recommended for pregnant women and children 6-23 months of age) regarding their capacity to potentially increase the supply of thimerosal-reduced and thimerosal-free presentations are ongoing.

 

And in other places in that link you shared I found: 

 

 

 

 

Quote:
The U.S. Public Health Service and other organizations have recommended that efforts be made to eliminate or reduce the thimerosal content in vaccines as part of a strategy to reduce mercury exposures from all sources

 

 

 

Quote:
ACIP and other federal agencies and professional medical organizations continue to support efforts to provide thimerosal-preservative--free vaccine options.

 

(ACIP = Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, to the CDC)

 

 And

 

 

 

Quote:
The benefits of influenza vaccination for all recommended groups, including pregnant women and young children, outweigh concerns on the basis of a theoretic risk from thimerosal exposure through vaccination. The risks for severe illness from influenza virus infection are elevated among both young children and pregnant women, and vaccination has been demonstrated to reduce the risk for severe influenza illness and subsequent medical complications. In contrast, no harm from exposure to vaccine containing thimerosal preservative has been demonstrated.

 

(they provide some citations to the last statement elsewhere in the document).

 

For example

 

 

Quote:
An analysis of VAERS reports identified no difference in the safety profile of preservative-containing compared with preservative-free TIV vaccines in infants aged 6--23 months.
 

 

 

Some of the studies they cite: 

Rosenberg M, Sparks R, McMahon A, et al. Serious adverse events rarely reported after trivalent inactivated influenza vaccine (TIV) in children 6--23 months of age. Vaccine 2009;27:4278--83.)

 

McMahon AW, Iskander JK, Haber P, et al. Inactivated influenza vaccine (IIV) in children <2 years of age: examination of selected adverse events reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) after thimerosal-free or thimerosal-containing vaccine. Vaccine 2008;26:427--9.

 

Zheng W, Dreskin SC. Thimerosal in influenza vaccine: an immediate hypersensitivity reaction. Ann Allergy Asthma Immunol 2007;99:574--5.


Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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