Formal Debate Thread: Unvaccinated children are healthier than fully vaccinated children - READ ALL RULES BEFORE PARTICIPATING - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

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Old 06-18-2012, 08:51 AM
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Hadn't we agreed to set aside autoimmunity in this thread?  Maybe that can be the next topic.
 

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Old 06-18-2012, 08:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by stik View Post

Hadn't we agreed to set aside autoimmunity in this thread?  Maybe that can be the next topic.
 

I don't think so.. Post number?

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Old 06-18-2012, 09:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AdinaL View Post

I didn't say anything about autoimmune conditions.  I said let's use the definition that a parent would use - leaving neurological conditions out of this round.  I gave three examples, but those are not the only examples.  I think autoimmune conditions would fall under things that would cause a parent to define health as good or poor.  

 

So, further clarification then to the assertion: Unvaccinated children are healthier than vaccinated children.  For purposes of this debate health meaning: less cold/flu, less contagious diseases, less autoimmune conditions - anything that would be considered by a parent/layperson to be "unhealthy".  This debate will leave neurological conditions out, as that is a much broader debate.

 

 

looks like auto-immune is in...

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Old 06-18-2012, 09:08 AM
 
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and another on autoimmune and vaccines:

 

http://www.neurology.org/content/63/5/838.abstract

 

Here is their conclusion:

 

These findings are consistent with the hypothesis that immunization with the recombinant hepatitis B vaccine is associated with an increased risk of MS, and challenge the idea that the relation between hepatitis B vaccination and risk of MS is well understood.

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Old 06-18-2012, 09:22 AM
 
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One of the first things we learned in pharmacy school, when it comes to analyzing literature, is not to trust the abstract. It can be biased. I wouldn't quote the abstract as if it proves anything. You have to look at the data and the methods used to gather it. I'm going to try to find full text.

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Old 06-18-2012, 09:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by erigeron View Post

One of the first things we learned in pharmacy school, when it comes to analyzing literature, is not to trust the abstract. It can be biased. I wouldn't quote the abstract as if it proves anything. You have to look at the data and the methods used to gather it. I'm going to try to find full text.

I hope you find the full text.

 

I know abstracts are not as good as the full text - none-the-less, they point to avenues for exploration for those interested in the topic.

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Old 06-18-2012, 09:55 AM
 
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Looking at the full text, methodologically they remove a lot of sources of bias--they use the General Practice Research Database in the UK, so they can get retrospective data on when people were vaccinated and when they started to develop MS symptoms, without relying on recall bias for either. Each case of MS was matched with controls also from the database.

 

Most people in both groups were NOT vaccinated, which is part of the problem with this study. In the UK only high-risk groups are vaccinated, including health care providers (who might be more likely to see their doctors for neurological symptoms?)

 

Ultimately, the statistical analysis did show that there was this increased risk in vaccinated patients, as mentioned above, however this is based on ELEVEN vaccinated patients. (Because most people were not vaccinated, in the MS group or in the controls.)

 

The authors note that data from other studies is mixed as to whether there is an increased rate of MS in people who received the Hep B vaccine.

 

To me, this may point to a direction for future research, but I'm not convinced it's worth putting too much stock in these results because eleven patients is not a lot to go on. (A US study might be better for this since more people here are vaccinated. There may be one out there. I haven't checked.)

 

This study was done with data from 1993-2000, so when calculating the risks associated with getting vaccinated now, we'd have to consider changes in the vaccine formulation since then, as well as whether the formulation is the same country to country.

 

Also, these were adult patients, so we shouldn't extrapolate to children.

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Old 06-18-2012, 10:39 AM
 
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Thanks, erigeron.

 

Were there 11 vaccinated people, period?  (I would not expect to see MS in 11 vaccinated people) or were there 11 people who had MS who were also vaccinated? 

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Old 06-18-2012, 09:45 PM
 
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163 MS cases were included and 1,604 controls matched to the MS cases. (It's standard in a study like this to have way more controls than cases.) The matched cases were chosen based on age, sex, which doctor they saw and when they had started seeing that doctor, and length of time/interval for which data is available.

 

Of the 152 MS cases, only 11 had been vaccinated for Hep B at all. Similarly, of the 1,604 controls, only 39 had been vaccinated for Hep B. The results were considered statistically significant. However, just because something is statistically significant does not necessarily mean that it should change clinical practice. When deciding which treatments are best to use, it's the body of research that's looked at, not one individual study. My takeaway from this study, personally, is that more research is needed into this connection--which the authors pretty much acknowledge as well.

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Old 06-20-2012, 12:10 AM
 
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Quote erigeron (edited 152-163 which I think is correct?):
Of the 163 MS cases, only 11 had been vaccinated for Hep B at all. Similarly, of the 1,604 controls, only 39 had been vaccinated for Hep B

 

So doing basic statistics on these figures (without reading the rest of the article which is not good scientific practice)

 

Percentage of MS cases vaccinated for Hep B= (100*) 11/163 = 17+/-5%

 

Percentage of control vaccinated for Hep B = (100*) 39/1604 = 2.4+/-0.3 %

 

So that does look significant at about the 3sigma level (ie. 17%-3*5% is about the same as the control percentage of 2%). Although small numbers, and the majority of the MS cases were not vaccinated. 

 

Definitely indicative of the need for more study on Hep B in adults, but not completely relevent to the question of if unvaccinated children are more healthy than vaccinated - especially since I think MS is a neurological disorder (sorry bit vague on the details of it, even though a good friend of my Mum has it) which we had agreed to exclude from this thread. 

 

Are we done with the main debate? I'm pretty convinced there's no evidence to support the original statement although I hope more research will continue to be done. 


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Old 06-20-2012, 05:33 AM
 
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Are we done with the main debate? I'm pretty convinced there's no evidence to support the original statement although I hope more research will continue to be done. 

Seems like we're done to me.

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Old 06-20-2012, 05:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post



So doing basic statistics on these figures (without reading the rest of the article which is not good scientific practice)

Percentage of MS cases vaccinated for Hep B= (100*) 11/163 = 17+/-5%

Percentage of control vaccinated for Hep B = (100*) 39/1604 = 2.4+/-0.3 %

So that does look significant at about the 3sigma level (ie. 17%-3*5% is about the same as the control percentage of 2%). Although small numbers, and the majority of the MS cases were not vaccinated. 

Definitely indicative of the need for more study on Hep B in adults, but not completely relevent to the question of if unvaccinated children are more healthy than vaccinated - especially since I think MS is a neurological disorder (sorry bit vague on the details of it, even though a good friend of my Mum has it) which we had agreed to exclude from this thread. 

Are we done with the main debate? I'm pretty convinced there's no evidence to support the original statement although I hope more research will continue to be done. 

MS is generally considered to be autoimmune, which we had agreed to include in this thread. There are 8,000-10,000 children with MS in the US. http://www.nationalmssociety.org/for-professionals/healthcare-professionals/pediatric-ms/index.aspx

Wonder if anyone's ever monitored the vaccination status of those children.
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Old 06-20-2012, 07:35 AM
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I don't know, Taximom.  Did you google that?
 

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Old 06-20-2012, 07:55 AM
 
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My older boys were vaxed minus the mmr. My older boy had the mmr staggered and my younger not at all.

 

Up until the age of 4 or 5, before school, and while breastfeeding, they were rarely sick with generic colds, never got ear infections.  My oldest sometimes got a stomach bug (once a year maybe, which he recovered from quickly) I attribute  good health defined this way  to breastfeeding.  But iminterested to read this thread for sure.

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Old 06-20-2012, 10:19 AM
 
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I'm sure most of the children with ms are vaccinated because the proportion of unvaccinated people is so so low. So what?
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Old 06-20-2012, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Are we done?  I was going to close on Monday, but there was still some information coming in.  If we are done, I will close this thread.  


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Old 06-20-2012, 04:52 PM
 
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This article addresses this exact topic, and came out yesterday. If nothing else, its an interesting read.

 

http://www.naturalnews.com/036220_vaccinated_children_disease_allergies.html

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Old 06-20-2012, 05:02 PM
 
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The study discussed in the beginning of that article was discussed extensively in a different thread. It's very methodologically flawed. See especially post 13 here. http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1355734/vaccinated-children-have-2-5-times-more-diseases-and-disorders

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Old 06-20-2012, 08:45 PM
 
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And there's another website that's covering it. Different link, different read, and exactly the topic being discussed in this thread.

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Old 06-20-2012, 09:40 PM
 
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Huh? It's the same survey that is being discussed in both cases. Why does it matter which media outlet is covering it? It's the actual data from the survey that we want to look at.

 

Also, in this thread you are supposed to post your own analysis of the link, not just post the link without commentary. Which I didn't really do, but I admit I really can't add anything to what pers said in the other thread.

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Old 06-20-2012, 11:43 PM
 
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I never said it was a different survey, nor did I see the other thread. And really, that's ok. Why does it matter that it was in a different thread? Like me, many people don't pour over every single thread on this board, and thus a link is seen in one thread where it might not have been otherwise. 

 

I did post a "commentary." I said it was an interesting read. That's how I felt about it. 

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Old 06-21-2012, 12:01 AM
 
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Someone has already mentioned the dangers of posting when it's past our bedtime, but I had a question...hope it makes sense ...since I'm typing with my eyes closed....So we're to look at the overall health of vax to non vax......but for today's kids....Is there anything...a study, something that looks at kids from? I don't know, 50 years ago....comparing those vaxes...and diseases, illness, etc...to kids today, the new vax and illnesses, etc...(Does this make sense?)When 'we were kids' we must have only received a handful of shots...but today, our kids are getting ???20-50 different things....Why the increase? (hope that doesn't throw a wrench into this chatt)


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Old 06-21-2012, 05:52 AM
 
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Good question. I'm not sure if such a study exists. If it did there would obviously be a lot of things to control for, but that doesn't mean it would be pointless.

I'm not sure what the question "why the increase" means. The increase is so that kids are protected from more vaccine preventable diseases.
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Old 06-21-2012, 06:33 AM
 
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I have searched and searched for a study that polls parents who vax and parents who don't to find out their other habits- medically. I have had similar expereinces to others in that several people I know who fully vax have sick kids constantly. I personally wonder if there is any research done about whether parents who vaccinate are more likely to give their kids antibiotics regularly (I'm talking several times per year here, not "my kid had strep once and I gave them an antibiotic"). The parents I know who have sick kids and vaccinate take their kids to the doctor all the time (more exposure to other sick kids) and it seems that their kids are always on some form of antibiotic- which does lower the immune system.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100127095945.htm

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Old 06-21-2012, 07:08 AM
 
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Polls aren't good for much when it comes to hard research, unfortunately. There are several studies that have already been posted that show vaccinated children aren't more prone to infection or more likely to be chronically Ill, anecdotes aside. However I imagine families that vaccinate vs. those that choose not to are more willing to fill a prescription for antibiotics. I'm not sure it's been shown that there is a long term effect of "running down the immune system" from taking antibiotics, though. Maybe a short term effect.
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Okay.  Thread closed. :)  Good first start, folks. :)


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Old 06-25-2012, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Link to new debate thread: http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1356520/formal-debate-thread-vaccinated-children-are-more-likely-to-have-autism-than-unvaccinated-children/0_100

 

Come on over. :)


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