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Old 06-15-2012, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's where we get the topics.  If you have a topic for debate - post it.  Make it specific, make it clear.  It can be a basic assumption we hear all the time (such as the one we started with) or it can be a more specific one.  It should be something you wish to research as well, not something where you know there is one study that proves your point, thus making it impossible to debate.

 

If you like a topic - give it a thumbs-up to "second" it. 


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Old 06-18-2012, 05:56 AM
 
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OK, some ideas: 

 

"The thimersol content in the 2012 formulations of multi-dose vial flu vaccine is dangerous for pregnant women"

 

here's a common one. Even I had a moment of pause/being a bit scared when my kids got MMR, while I reminded myself that all the studies had been debunked! ;) 

 

"Vaccinated children are more likely to have autism that unvaccinated children" 

 

finally: 

 

"Vaccine preventable diseases declined because of better hygiene practices, not because of the introduction of mass vaccination programmes". 


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Old 06-18-2012, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Good ones. I like those.

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Old 06-18-2012, 11:08 AM
 
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"We should use pre-vaccine rates when comparing vaccine risks to disease risks."

 

"Chicken pox, mumps and rubella should not be on the routine childhood schedule."

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Old 06-20-2012, 10:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Also good.

 

Though I do have a question: "Chicken pox, mumps and rubella should not be on the routine childhood schedule.

 

How can this be proved?  This sounds like an individual's opinion.  Is there a "because" part to this assertion? 


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Old 06-25-2012, 03:15 AM
 
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So are we having another debate? I realise I'm several time zones East of most of you, but Monday morning seems like a good time to start! ;) 


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Old 06-25-2012, 05:01 AM
 
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"It is perfectly safe administering several vaccines at once to infants many times over,  with no long term permanent health consequences"  

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Old 06-25-2012, 07:02 AM
 
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" all vaccines go through rigorous testing and safety procedures, so they MUST be safe"

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Old 06-25-2012, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

So are we having another debate? I realise I'm several time zones East of most of you, but Monday morning seems like a good time to start! ;) 

Yep, we are. :)  And yep - I'm west coast, so you all are up and at 'em before me.

 

Just looking at topics again to decide where to start. :)  Will have thread up shortly.


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Old 06-25-2012, 11:25 AM
 
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Personally, I would skip the autism one for now.  There was a huge thread on it just a few months ago.

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Old 06-25-2012, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
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And of course that's the one I picked. LOL  Well, let's get it over with and then we can move on.  I think it is a good one because so many arguments in Vax come back to the Autism argument.  So if we have it sorted for our debaters, then we can move on to other topics from the same ground. :)


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Old 06-25-2012, 11:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AdinaL View Post

And of course that's the one I picked. LOL  Well, let's get it over with and then we can move on.  I think it is a good one because so many arguments in Vax come back to the Autism argument.  So if we have it sorted for our debaters, then we can move on to other topics from the same ground. :)

Oh, well, there will be lots of links on the old thread…save me some google searching!! thumb.gif

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Old 06-27-2012, 08:10 AM
 
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Hypothesis - there is no inherent conflict of interests in how the safety and efficacy of vaxes are established.

 


Pro rights (vaxes).
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Old 07-01-2012, 02:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay. New topic time.

 

But first a question - is this even worth it?  Does anyone really care, or is it just another avenue to fight with one another?

 

The grapevine has delivered to me that these are a joke, I'm not doing my job moderating and it is useless and why bother and that people are actively staying away.  If that is the case, then we can be done.  So, I ask you, shall we continue?


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Old 07-01-2012, 02:36 PM
 
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I like these, although I rarely comment (mostly because other posters have a greater background knowledge and I don't have time to do much research).  Perhaps others feel differently, but I don't think they are a joke.
 


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Old 07-01-2012, 02:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AdinaL View Post

Okay. New topic time.

 

But first a question - is this even worth it?  Does anyone really care, or is it just another avenue to fight with one another?

 

The grapevine has delivered to me that these are a joke, I'm not doing my job moderating and it is useless and why bother and that people are actively staying away.  If that is the case, then we can be done.  So, I ask you, shall we continue?

I think the tone on them is much better than the tone used to be on the vax forum - by far.  I have seen no issue with moderation.  

 

I do think people are staying away, though.  Maybe they really like bickering (and there are some pretty strong anti-bickering rules on the debate thread - so if they like bickering the debate threads are not great, IMHO) maybe they like more organic threads or maybe they are just tired.

 

I don't think anyone is going to win these debates - or at least the other side is never going to agree the other side has "won."  The differences are too deep.  Half the time we do not even accept the others sources, so we cannot even get to debating the matter.

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Old 07-01-2012, 03:51 PM
 
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I agree. I am reading the debate threads but not posting. Partly because my only access is my phone and it's hard to link and write detailed posts and partly because I find it too hard to debate when fundamental premises are not agreed on by all the debaters. It just makes it too complicated.

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Old 07-01-2012, 04:01 PM
 
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I read them (but they are frustrating to me so I decide I will not read them...but then I do! redface.gif )

Similar to having a poster blocked but then opening up all her posts anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

I don't think anyone is going to win these debates - or at least the other side is never going to agree the other side has "won."  The differences are too deep.  Half the time we do not even accept the others sources, so we cannot even get to debating the matter.

 

yeahthat.gif

 

 

eta...I appreciate all the work/time the posters are putting in to their responses.

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Old 07-01-2012, 04:19 PM
 
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I don't think they're a joke, but they're not proper debates, either. It is kind of nice to just have it out over one specific thing. I haven't seen huge inequities in moderation you're only human after all
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Old 07-01-2012, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm not sure proper debates - following all the rules of debate and all that are possible in this format without putting all comments on approval and having a dedicated person review them for accuracy and valid sources.  

 

And that's the tough part.  Unless we can come up with sources that folks feel are valid (everyone) and agree to, I'm not sure that we can continue.  

 

So perhaps the scope should be even smaller: a study or article is the focus of the debate and that is what gets pulled apart looked at and a conclusion made?


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Old 07-01-2012, 04:30 PM
 
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You're probably right about debate format, but it seems like there's just as many people offerin unfounded opinions as in any other thread. I think looking at a particular article would be even worse. If the goal is some kind of consensus we're never going to get that. If the goal is to get good resources out there, that we can do.

As for topics, maybe something with chicken pox, should it be on the schedule or the like.
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Old 07-01-2012, 10:00 PM
 
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So perhaps the scope should be even smaller: a study or article is the focus of the debate and that is what gets pulled apart looked at and a conclusion made?

 

Not sure this is always possible.  A study/article might lead to a different conclusion/understanding given a context, a bigger picture.  The whole is sometimes bigger than the sum of its parts.


Pro rights (vaxes).
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Old 07-02-2012, 06:28 PM
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For me, the problem is that the debates exist in the middle of a toxic environment.  I would love to have a civil convo about a bunch of related issues, but some sincerely infuriating things have been said on other threads, and consequently, I can't look at some of the posters involved (or their UNs) without a serious spike in blood pressure.  While it hasn't yet been made explicit, the eugenics-based rhetoric of years past is starting to make a return to the forum, and it disgusts me. 

 

Maybe we could shut everything else in the vax forums down and just have debates. 

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Old 07-02-2012, 06:58 PM
 
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For me, the problem is that the debates exist in the middle of a toxic environment.  I would love to have a civil convo about a bunch of related issues, but some sincerely infuriating things have been said on other threads, and consequently, I can't look at some of the posters involved (or their UNs) without a serious spike in blood pressure.

I have to agree.  I bet they are not the same people, though, lol.

 

I think we (collective we) need to keep in mind that all of us care passionately about kids or we would not be here - even when we think the other is very wrong.

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Old 07-03-2012, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Okay, so everyone is interested in having the discussions, but the cons listed are: toxic environment of the board as a whole, inability to move past difference, never reach consensus.

 

 

Are there any pros?


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Old 07-03-2012, 10:42 AM
 
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Gives Ima something to read and think about while "working".

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Old 07-03-2012, 11:26 AM
 
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I don't think the inability to reach consensus is really a con.
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Old 07-06-2012, 04:15 AM
 
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I'm not sure proper debates - following all the rules of debate and all that are possible in this format without putting all comments on approval and having a dedicated person review them for accuracy and valid sources.  

 

And that's the tough part.  Unless we can come up with sources that folks feel are valid (everyone) and agree to, I'm not sure that we can continue.  

 

So perhaps the scope should be even smaller: a study or article is the focus of the debate and that is what gets pulled apart looked at and a conclusion made?

Could we have a (presumably growing) list of sites we agree not to use and/or try to use primary sources only? 


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Old 07-06-2012, 06:07 AM
 
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I doubt it, when just calling a source biased or not neutral results in a warning from a mod.
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Old 07-06-2012, 07:14 AM
 
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Could we have a (presumably growing) list of sites we agree not to use and/or try to use primary sources only? 

 

What would be the guidelines?

 

bias?

lack of citations on the page?

financial interests?

nasty tone about the other camp?

 

I think we should be allowed to use any site. We are all adults.  If you do not like a a site, do not go look at it.  Complete newbies aside, most of us know which sites are generally acceptable in discussions.

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