Formal Debate Thread: Vaccinated children are more likely to have autism than unvaccinated children. - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 126 Old 06-27-2012, 07:09 AM
 
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Also, I just followed Peggy's link, and the article refers to the "largely unvaccinated Amish", so his article has not been proven wrong.
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#62 of 126 Old 06-27-2012, 07:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

The majority of pregnant women and six month olds do not get a thimerosal flu shot. 

Link - and not a link showing thim free shots exist - but the percentage of pregnant women who get thim free shots.  

 

To the best of my knowledge, we do not know how many pregnant women get thim free flu shots.

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#63 of 126 Old 06-27-2012, 07:47 AM
 
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I dont have a statistic and we've been you about this before, but the tf shot is targeted for pregnant women and children. They're the reason it exists. I feel it's valid I say it's what the majority of them get. At least as valid as claiming they all get the thimerosal version like pp.
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#64 of 126 Old 06-27-2012, 07:58 AM
 
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From olmsteds original article: "So I turned to the 22,000 Amish in Lancaster County, Pa. I didn't expect to find many, if any, vaccinated Amish: they have a religious exemption from the otherwise mandatory U.S. vaccination schedule. When German measles broke out among Amish in Pennsylvania in 1991, the CDC reported that just one of 51 pregnant women they studied had ever been vaccinated against it."

False, the Amish do not have a religious exemption from vaccination, because they have no religious prohibition against vaccination.

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#65 of 126 Old 06-27-2012, 07:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by pek64 View Post

And either way, no numbers of children were provided, so no conclusions can be made about the percent of the children who were vaccinated.

I have the full text article with actual numbers. What exactly do you want to know?
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#66 of 126 Old 06-27-2012, 08:02 AM
 
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Re the generation rescue data, they seemed to have scrubbed it from their site, but here it is courtesy of the way back machine: http://web.archive.org/web/20070822144652/http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/survey.pdf

Before you start criticizing sample size, etc etc, remember I'm not the one that brought it up. I actually think this data is fairly worthless because of how it was gathered, but since someone brought it up I thought I would point out that it doesn't actually say what you think it says.
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#67 of 126 Old 06-27-2012, 08:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

I dont have a statistic and we've been you about this before, but the tf shot is targeted for pregnant women and children. They're the reason it exists. I feel it's valid I say it's what the majority of them get. At least as valid as claiming they all get the thimerosal version like pp.

It is not valid to say the majority get thim free shots.  You have no link or statistics to back it up.  You just have suppositions. 

 

I will move on, though.  We have been through this before. 

 

edited to add:  I found this article,  http://articles.latimes.com/2004/apr/02/business/fi-vaccine2  which is a little old (2004) but it said thim free shots are more expensive and more difficult to make in large quantities.  Given this, I suspect most pregnant women do not get thim free shots unless they ask.  Moreover - not everyone lives in the USA.  In Canada, there are only 2 thim free shots available for use, and both have to be paid for privately. http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/im/q_a_thimerosal-eng.php

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#68 of 126 Old 06-27-2012, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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This is a very interesting conversation.  

 

Please remember though we are looking for verifiable research, stats, info, etc.  Not just gut feelings and opinions.  So you have an opinion, start digging, research it - find something to back it up.  Exercise that mad Google-fu I know you all have. :)


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#69 of 126 Old 06-27-2012, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Jennifer Z - The last paragraph of your post violates the rules set forth in the OP of this thread.  Calling people "curebies" and  calling people "uneducated minions" is name calling and against not only the rules of the debate thread, but also against the User Agreement.  As such you will be removed from this thread until its conclusion. Additionally your post and those quoting it will be removed.

 

 

A Reminder: Please do not report posts in this thread.  Please PM me directly with a link.  These are my pet projects, not something the forum mod is handling.


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#70 of 126 Old 06-27-2012, 12:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AdinaL View Post

Jennifer Z - The last paragraph of your post violates the rules set forth in the OP of this thread.  Calling people "curebies" and  calling people "uneducated minions" is name calling and against not only the rules of the debate thread, but also against the User Agreement.  As such you will be removed from this thread until its conclusion. Additionally your post and those quoting it will be removed.

 

 

A Reminder: Please do not report posts in this thread.  Please PM me directly with a link.  These are my pet projects, not something the forum mod is handling.

 

greensad.gif Now I will have to rewrite my post, it took me hours to write because I was constantly uninterrupted. I didn't even quote the last para. 


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#71 of 126 Old 06-27-2012, 12:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pek64 View Post

A look at those disputed numbers.
68%+17%+14% is only 99%, so 1% is unaccounted.
37% responded, so if there were 100 families, 37 are represented in the survey/study.
68% of those responding hadgiven all their children at least one vaccination.
That means 25 families of the total of 100 gave all their children at least one vaccination. It says nothing about the total number of children.
17% of those responding had given some of their children at least one vaccination.
That 11 familes gave some children at least one. No idea how many children.
14% of those responding had given their children no vaccinations.
That's 9.5 families. Again, no numbers of children.
All in all, there is no data to support either claim, since no numbers of children were provided, in my opinion.

It is also uncleear whether there is any overlap between the 68% (who gave all children at least one vaccine), the 17% (who gave some of children at least one vaccine), and/or the 11 families (who gave some children at least one vaccine).

 

If it was possible to check more than one box in the survey, some respondents may have done so, while others may have left all the vaccine questions blank.

 

I'd like to see all the details.

 

But either way, it is incorrect to conclude from such ridiculously incomplete data that "the Amish vaccinate," and compare those results with the results of a population that receives up to 35 times (or more) the only concrete number ("at least one") mentioned in this survey.

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#72 of 126 Old 06-27-2012, 12:59 PM
 
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I would like to see data that references the numbers of children. I am unwilling to assume a number of children per family, so data referencing nimbers or percents of families is unacceptable to me.
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#73 of 126 Old 06-27-2012, 01:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

From olmsteds original article: "So I turned to the 22,000 Amish in Lancaster County, Pa. I didn't expect to find many, if any, vaccinated Amish: they have a religious exemption from the otherwise mandatory U.S. vaccination schedule. When German measles broke out among Amish in Pennsylvania in 1991, the CDC reported that just one of 51 pregnant women they studied had ever been vaccinated against it."
False, the Amish do not have a religious exemption from vaccination, because they have no religious prohibition against vaccination.

From http://amishamerica.com/do-amish-vaccinate-their-children/

 

Religious objections

Finally, some Amish may object to vaccinations on religious grounds, though Huntington states that this is a less likely objection than concerns over safety.  She notes that Amish who acquire religious exemptions for vaccinations may cite Romans 12:2, “Be not conformed to this world”, as one justification for abstaining.  Amish may argue that putting faith in immunizations is like placing faith in man above God, and that vaccination is akin to participating in insurance programs, which Amish typically oppose (“Health Issues”, Huntington, p 186).

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#74 of 126 Old 06-27-2012, 01:20 PM
 
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http://www.theoneclickgroup.co.uk/documents/vaccines/Vaccine%20and%20Autism%20correlation%20US%202011%20J%20Tox%20Env%20Health.pdf

 

Abstract:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15287394.2011.573736?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub%3dpubmed

 

 

The conclusion of the study:

 

 

Evidence presented in this paper suggests a possible link between susceptible children receiving a battery of vaccinations and devel- oping autism or speech disorders.

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#75 of 126 Old 06-27-2012, 01:22 PM
 
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Also from http://amishamerica.com/do-amish-vaccinate-their-children/

 

Hurst and McConnell state that immunization can be especially low among conservative groups, with only 6% of Swartentruber Amish participating, compared to 63% of the overall Amish population and 85% of the non-Amish population, according to a 1984 study (Paradox, Hurst/McConnell). (An Amish Paradox: Diversity and Change in the World’s Largest Amish Community, Charles E. Hurst and David L. McConnell)  That's from 18 years ago.

 

In searching for more information, I found the Wikipedia site, which says that there are at least 8 subgroups of Amish, with varying levels of conservativism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subgroups_of_Amish

 

So it seems to me that both sides of the vaccine issue are incorrect to be saying "The Amish" either do or don't vaccinate. Apparently, it depends  a great deal on which subgroup you look at.

 

It would be very interesting to see if autism is more prevalent in Amish subgroups who vaccinate more.

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#76 of 126 Old 06-27-2012, 01:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

http://www.theoneclickgroup.co.uk/documents/vaccines/Vaccine%20and%20Autism%20correlation%20US%202011%20J%20Tox%20Env%20Health.pdf

 

The conclusion of the study:

 

 

Evidence presented in this paper suggests a possible link between susceptible children receiving a battery of vaccinations and devel- oping autism or speech disorders.

I just wanted to add the title and author of the study:

 

A POSITIVE ASSOCIATION FOUND BETWEEN AUTISM PREVALENCE AND CHILDHOOD VACCINATION UPTAKE ACROSS THE U.S. POPULATION

Gayle DeLong

Department of Economics and Finance, Baruch College/City University of New York, New York, New York, USA

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#77 of 126 Old 06-27-2012, 01:29 PM
 
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Vaccines cause physiological changes in children which can result in behavioral problems which get labeled Autism. Vaccinations cause encephalitis which causes seizures. Vaccines cause immune system deficiencies and gastrointestinal problems. Encephalitis causes mood swings, extreme pain, inattention and impulsivity, aggression, balance problems and spacial issues. Seizures cause mood swings, inattention and impulsivity, and alterations in consciousness. Vaccines cause immune system deficiencies which cause bacterial infections, like UTIs, ear infections, strep, URIs. Immune deficiencies cause frequent "viral" inflammations like stomatitis, unexplained fevers, "viral" rashes, gastrointestinal viruses which are in reality the body's innate drive to heal. Vaccines cause gastrointestinal damage which causes diarrhea, nausea, reflux, vomiting and GERD. The prescribing of antibiotics for all these infections will then lead to pathogenic yeast overgrowth, which leads to constipation, food allergies, skin issues and food cravings. It adds up to a child with chronic illness, no wonder they behave the way they do to get diagnosed as "Autistic". No, vaccinated children are not more likely to have autism than unvaccinated children, because "Autism" is a mental condition, take away these children's pain, immune deficiency, gastrointestinal damage, pathogenic yeast infections and see if they are still "Autistic".


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#78 of 126 Old 06-27-2012, 01:43 PM
 
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Has there been proven a single individual that has none of the physiological problems listed above, and diagnosed with autism?
That seems like a remark or opinion to me, not a proven fact.
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#79 of 126 Old 06-27-2012, 02:18 PM
 
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Has there been proven a single individual that has none of the physiological problems listed above, and diagnosed with autism?
That seems like a remark or opinion to me, not a proven fact.

Autism is a mental disorder it is strictly diagnosed by behaviors, there is no blood test for it, no lab test to confirm or deny it. Here are the diagnostic criteria from the DMS - IV, none of them are medical conditions, for example:

 

 

  • marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction.

 

  • lack of varied, spontaneous make-believe play or social imitative play appropriate to development level

 

  • sterotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g. hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements

 

 

 


Vaccine injured children labeled Autistic have a multitude of physiological problems none of which will give them an Autism diagnosis, only their behaviors (a result of the symptoms?) will.

 

 


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#80 of 126 Old 06-27-2012, 02:27 PM
 
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Autism is a mental disorder it is strictly diagnosed by behaviors, there is no blood test for it, no lab test to confirm or deny it. Here are the diagnostic criteria from the DMS - IV, none of them are medical conditions, for example:

 

 

  • marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction.

 

  • lack of varied, spontaneous make-believe play or social imitative play appropriate to development level

 

  • sterotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g. hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements

 

 

 


Vaccine injured children labeled Autistic have a multitude of physiological problems none of which will give them an Autism diagnosis, only their behaviors (a result of the symptoms?) will.

 

 

Huh.  I am seeking clarity here.  You lost me at the last sentence.

 

Do you think vaccines can spur on autism - or do you think vaccine injury mimics autism?

 

I agree with the rest of your post, and I agree that autism is diagnosed through behaviours.  There is no blood test for it. 

 

There are physical issues of those with autism.  Here is a list:

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5406427_physical-symptoms-autism.html

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#81 of 126 Old 06-27-2012, 02:30 PM
 
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For some reason, I am unable to edit my posts, so I will add here from the DSM (sorry for typo in about post):

 

 

 

Quote:
The disturbance is not better accounted for by Rett's Disorder or Childhood Disintegrative Disorder

 


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#82 of 126 Old 06-27-2012, 02:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

 

Huh.  I am seeking clarity here.  You lost me at the last sentence.

 

Do you think vaccines can spur on autism - or do you think vaccine injury mimics autism?

 

I agree with the rest of your post, and I agree that autism is diagnosed through behaviours.  There is no blood test for it.  There are some physical issues many autistic people have - here is a link:

 

http://autism.lovetoknow.com/Physical_Characteristics_of_Autism

 

Good question. Given that Autism is a collection of behaviors, according to the DSM, and vaccine-injured "Autistic" children seem to have a multitude of physiological problems, it would seem that they have a medical condition, which would mean it can't be called Autism. I am thinking aloud here. I honestly don't know. How can it be a only mental condition with some many co-morbid symptoms? 


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#83 of 126 Old 06-27-2012, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AdinaL View Post

This is a very interesting conversation.  

 

Please remember though we are looking for verifiable research, stats, info, etc.  Not just gut feelings and opinions.  So you have an opinion, start digging, research it - find something to back it up.  Exercise that mad Google-fu I know you all have. :)

I am going to reiterate this.  Opinion and gut feeling are well and good, but on this thread, you need to back it up with something.

 

I think we are getting off topic as well.  Defining how Autism is diagnosed is fine, but the topic needs to be back on whether or not vaccinated children are more likely to have autism (diagnosed) than unvaccinated children.

 

Please get back on topic.


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#84 of 126 Old 06-27-2012, 08:29 PM
 
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It's difficult to really address this issue without knowing the proposed mechanism of vaccines increasing the rate of autism.  Traditionally it's been MMR or thimerosal, more lately the pathogen load thing, but inevitably when one of those in particular is addressed someone claims that's not really the concern.

Anyway, if vaccines raise the rates of autism, maybe countries with fewer vaccines have lower rates of Autism?  Some of the countries with the lowest number of vaccines for infants are Norway, Sweden, and Japan.  Sweden and Japan only give 12 shots to infants.  All three of these countries, however, have an autism rate not significantly different from ours.

 

Norway: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110228090611.htm

Japan: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7076-autism-rises-despite-mmr-ban-in-japan.html

Sweden: http://autismjabberwocky.blogspot.com/2011/11/autism-prevalence-in-gothenburg-sweden.html

 

Studies show the same is true for Britain.  There's also scientific evidence that even when vaccinations are delayed the age of onset of autism is the same.

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It's difficult to really address this issue without knowing the proposed mechanism of vaccines increasing the rate of autism.  Traditionally it's been MMR or thimerosal, more lately the pathogen load thing, but inevitably when one of those in particular is addressed someone claims that's not really the concern.

Anyway, if vaccines raise the rates of autism, maybe countries with fewer vaccines have lower rates of Autism?  Some of the countries with the lowest number of vaccines for infants are Norway, Sweden, and Japan.  Sweden and Japan only give 12 shots to infants.  All three of these countries, however, have an autism rate not significantly different from ours.

 

Norway: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110228090611.htm

Japan: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7076-autism-rises-despite-mmr-ban-in-japan.html

Sweden: http://autismjabberwocky.blogspot.com/2011/11/autism-prevalence-in-gothenburg-sweden.html

 

Studies show the same is true for Britain.  There's also scientific evidence that even when vaccinations are delayed the age of onset of autism is the same.

There are many possible mechanisms for vaccines increasing the rate of autism. Every time one is mentioned, someone claims that the goalposts are shifted.  That claim is, unfortunately, just a red herring. " The scientific reality is that the only thing Honda/Rutter teaches us is that MMR vaccine cannot be the only vaccine to cause autistic spectrum disorders – and not that it is not a cause of autism."--http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/japvaxautism/

 

 

The idea that studies of autism in Japan and Britain show no relation to vaccines is thoroughly debunked here:

http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/japvaxautism/

 

 

The number of Japanese children developing autism rose and fell in direct proportion to the number of children vaccinated each year:-

 

080603_terada_graph
 
 

Information from formal peer reviewed papers including data from the UK’s General Practice Research Database shows that with each major change in the UK childhood vaccination programme the rates of childhood autism have increased significantly.

 

[Article updated 27 April 2010 to include British data]

 
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#86 of 126 Old 06-27-2012, 09:11 PM
 
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That's a really funny way to interpret those studies and data.
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from 2009

http://www.rescuepost.com/files/gr-autism_and_vaccines_world_special_report1.pdf

 

Prevalence data on autism from other countries is limited. For purposes of this report, only journal- published prevalence data was used. Below, in Table 3, the United States current autism prevalence is compared to certain other countries that met the following criteria: materially lower levels of mandated vaccines and published autism prevalence data. For comparison purposes, the prevalence figures are also expressed as a multiplier of the U.S. autism rate. For example, if a country has an autism rate of 1 in 2,000, than the U.S. rate is 13-times greater, expressed as 13x.

 

Norway: 13 vaccines by the age of 5.  autism rate: 1 in 2000  13.3x

Sweden: 11 vaccines by the age of 5.  autism rate: 1 in 862   5.7x

US:         35 vaccines by the age of 5.  autism rate: 1 in 150

**********************************************

I have not seen any journal-published prevalence data that suggests that the autism rate in Norway has gone from 1/2000 in 2009  to 1/88 by 2012, nor that the autism rate in Sweden has gone from 1/862 in 2009 to 1/88 by 2012.

 

 

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I guess you didn't read the links I posted, then.
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http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15287394.2011.590097

 

This study shows that a subset of people  have a much higher rate of autism than the rest of society.  The subset is grandchildren of those who had "pink disease" (which affected 1/500 exposed children)- which was caused by a sensitivity to mercury.  

 

 

"The results showed the prevalence rate of ASD among the grandchildren of pink disease survivors (1 in 25) to be significantly higher than the comparable general population prevalence rate (1 in 160). The results support the hypothesis that Hg sensitivity may be a heritable/genetic risk factor for ASD."

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#90 of 126 Old 06-28-2012, 12:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

I guess you didn't read the links I posted, then.

The link you posted does not suggest anything about the autism rate in Sweden, only about the rate in Gothenburg. That particular study was apparently the subject of a critique, "Screening For Low-Prevalence Conditions Is Problematic; Examples From The Gothenburg Study," but I can't view that paper. Hopefully someone has access to it and can post the abstract and conclusion.

The link you chose for Norway is to a study whose author insists that there has been no increase in autism prevalence there:

"Our conclusion is that the rise in ASD can be explained mainly by the use of more thorough mapping methods and, consequently, that we are not seeing the emergence of an autism epidemic.

Researchers involved in the "Barn i Bergen" project got widely varying results when they used different methods to investigate the same group of children. The first sub-study concluded that 0.44 per cent of the children had ASD, whereas the result a few years later was 0.87 per cent.

According to Ms Posserud, the reason for the difference is that the researchers conducted a more extensive survey in the last sub-study, which included a comprehensive clinical test in addition to a questionnaire and interviews with the children's parents."

This is certainly not in agreement with UC Davis MIND Institute, who concluded that better diagnosis could not account for the drastic increase in autism in the US, and that environmental factors are responsible. Since diagnostic criteria has not changed in the US in the last decade, but the rate has changed from 1/150 to 1/88, that does make it clear that better diagnos cannot explain the increase.
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