Formal Debate Thread: Vaccinated children are more likely to have autism than unvaccinated children. - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 126 Old 06-25-2012, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello and Welcome to our second debate thread!  First off, READ ALL THE RULES.  This is not a normal thread. Failure to follow the rules will result in you being locked out of the thread until the debate's conclusion.

 

 

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This debate's assertion: 
Vaccinated children are more likely to have autism than unvaccinated children.

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#2 of 126 Old 06-25-2012, 10:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Alrighty folks.  Jumping in with the elephant in the room....let's get this one done and cleanly. :)


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#3 of 126 Old 06-25-2012, 10:53 AM
 
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Are we excluding any populations from this debate?

 

For example - siblings of children with autism.

 

Most of us believe, and science certainly points to, a genetic tendency for autism.

 

Siblings of autistic children might be more likely to have autism - and I suspect there is a higher unvaxxed population among younger sibling of autistic kids than the norm.  Lots of people do not want to take what they perceive as a chance with vaccines.  The numbers of non-vaccinated children with autism might look high, but that is because they might have been pre-disposed to autism through genetic or other environmental issues in the first place.  Autism is a really complicated issue in my opinion, and multi factorial in causation.

 

Sadly, I do recognize the limits of finding research that excludes certain populations.  It can be hard enough to find good studies at all given the small number of completely unvaxxed children, among other factors.  

 

I am more interested in if vaccines can contribute to autism, rather than if vaccinated children are more likely to have autism than unvaccinated children - mostly because I think the latter is messy, given the genetic predisposition to autism and the fact people with said predisposition are more likely (I suspect) to avoid vaxxing in the first place.

 

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#4 of 126 Old 06-25-2012, 11:13 AM
 
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http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15287394.2010.519317

 

Study shows newborns males given Hep B vax have 3 times the rate of autism of the never vaccinated, or those vaccinated after the first month of life.

 

Yes, it is oldish (while published recently, it looks at children born prior to 1999.

 

Does anyone know if there are more recent studies and what they say?

 

Has the hep B formula changed dramatically - and are there studies that show a new formulation is safer?

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#5 of 126 Old 06-25-2012, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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I think we don't need to exclude populations from this one.  Let's see what the data you all find says, and make sure to specify what population was studied when you post info.  That way everyone can parse through that kind of information as well.


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#6 of 126 Old 06-25-2012, 02:28 PM
 
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I don't know how much I will be able to participate because this is a REALLY busy work week for me, but this is my first take, based on stuff I already had available and no real additional research.

 

The IOM rejects a causal link between MMR, Thimerosal, and vaccines.  Additionally they say that any other link is theoretical only, meaning there hasn't been any documentation.  http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2004/Immunization-Safety-Review-Vaccines-and-Autism.aspx

 

 

23 studies have found no link between autism and vaccines. The only study that did find a link, done by Andrew Wakefield and published in a British medical journal, has been completely discredited. Wakefield falsified data because he was working for a defense attorney who was invested in a particular outcome. Theoretical science doesn't support a link between autism and vaccines, either, although that's imperfect because we don't really understand completely what causes autism. The group "Autism Speaks" supports infant vaccination, autism rates in vaccinated and unvaccinated children are the same, and recent research shows changes in the brain due to autism occur as early as six months of age and there may be a genetic component.

 

Because Autism usually has it's onset at the same time as childhood vaccines are being given, the onset is often timed in conjunction with a vaccine. Children are getting vaccines every few months during their first years of life, so it's almost inevitable that the onset of something like autism would be timed coincidentally with vaccines. However, correlation does not mean causation and there is simply no research that supports a link.

 

There is no link between autism and thimerosol. (thimerosal has since been removed from most childhood vaccines and you can do all vaccines on the schedule without any thimerosal at all by requesting certain brands).

http://www.medpagetoday.com/Pediatrics/Vaccines/1911

 

"At this point, after ten years of research and dozens of large scale studies in multiple countries, the medical/scientific community (that is, the medical/scientific community that embraces the scientific method, with its emphasis on peer review, objective measurement, and testing of all hypotheses) is unanimous in its finding that no credible evidence exists that would support a connection between vaccinations and autism.1"

http://www.asatonline.org/resources/articles/vaccines.htm

 

"Vaccination does not appear to cause autism or other health problems in children with inborn errors of metabolism, a researcher said here"

http://www.medpagetoday.com/MeetingCoverage/IDSAMeeting/16761

 

"A community-based case-control study found no relationship between the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine and autism spectrum disorders, researchers reported here."

http://www.medpagetoday.com/InfectiousDisease/Vaccines/8280

 

The organization Autism Speaks supports vaccination.

"Many studies have been conducted to determine if a link exists between vaccination and increased prevalence of autism, with particular attention to the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine and those containing thimerosal. These studies have not found a link between vaccines and autism. We strongly encourage parents to have their children vaccinated, because this will protect them against serious diseases."

http://www.autismspeaks.org/science/policy-statements/information-about-vaccines-and-autism

 

"The MMR vaccine is not associated with autism, researchers here said. 

 

"We are persuaded that there is no link," according to Ian Lipkin, M.D., of the Mailman School of Public Health of Columbia University. "

http://www.medpagetoday.com/Neurology/Autism/10772

 

 

This discusses studies that have looked into (and rejected) the various vaccines cause autism theories, as well as the theory that vaccinated children are more susceptible to infection. They also found the connection between vaccines and autism to be "not biologically plausible," meaning science as we know it does not support the connection.

http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/48/4/456.full

 

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#7 of 126 Old 06-25-2012, 04:01 PM
 
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23 studies have found no link between autism and vaccines.

19 of those studies--and their flaws are discussed in www.14studies.org/studies.  

 

The largest of those studies, and the one most often quoted as not supporting a vaccine-autism link, the "Danish study," was manipulated by the CDC, who erased large amounts of data supporting the vaccine-autism connection: http://www.naturalnews.com/034038_vaccines_autism.html

 

"In 2003, the journal Pediatrics published a study conducted in Denmark that observed a significant decline in autism rates following the country's elimination of Thimerosal, a mercury-based component, from vaccines. But thanks to the CDC's corrupting influence, the published version of the study in Pediatrics actually claimed the opposite, and alleged that removal of Thimerosal brought about an increase in autism rates.

According to the documents, CDC officials removed large amounts of data from the study that showed a decline in autism rates following the removal of Thimerosal. The agency then twisted the remaining data to imply an increase in autism rates following the removal of Thimerosal, and suggested that there was no link between Thimerosal and autism."
 

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Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

 

 

 

The only study that did find a link, done by Andrew Wakefield and published in a British medical journal, has been completely discredited.

 

 

This is a great example of a "straw man argument."  (Wikipedia:  A straw man is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[1][2)12

 

Wakefield, along with Drs. Murch and Walker-Smith,  published a paper on clinical findings ofa bowel disorders in 12 autistic children.  The main point of this paper was to share

 

the findings that autistic children had intestinal problems.  This was a complete turn-around from previous medical thought, which held that autistic children behaved the way

 

they did because they were autistic, not because they were suffering from severe intestinal problems.

 

The authors concluded, "We have not proved a causal association between MMR and autism."

 

It is very common to read/hear in the news media the lie that Wakefield's paper claimed that the MMR caused autism; we also hear over and over that his study was discredited--yet the US media has so far completely blacked out the news that Wakefield's partner, Dr. Walker-Smith, won his appeal on this case.

 

"Justice John Mitting ruled on the appeal by Walker-Smith, saying that the GMC “panel’s determination cannot stand. I therefore quash it.” He said that its conclusions were based on “inadequate and superficial reasoning and, in a number of instances, a wrong conclusion.” ..."This conclusion is not surprising, as the GMC trial had no actual complainants, no harm came to the children who were studied, and parents supported Walker-Smith and Wakefield through the trial, reporting that their children had medically benefited from the treatment they received at the Royal Free Hospital."

--http://therefusers.com/refusers-newsroom/senior-author-of-mmr-paper-john-walker-smith-wins-appeal-by-the-canary-party/

 

The paper is discussed by Wakefield here:  http://www.autismone.org/content/paper-andrew-wakefield-mb-bs-frcs-frcpath

 

In addition, there have been many studies that indicate a vaccine-autism link. One has already been posted above (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15287394.2010.519317), so one cannot truthfully post that "the only the study that did [find a link] ...has been completely discredited. 

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Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

 

 

 

There is no link between autism and thimerosol. (thimerosal has since been removed from most childhood vaccines and you can do all vaccines on the schedule without any thimerosal at all by requesting certain brands).

http://www.medpagetoday.com/Pediatrics/Vaccines/1911

 

 

The  "2012" rate of autism, as announced by the CDC this year, is based on children born in 2000--children who received more thimerosal than any children before, as thimerosal-free vaccines were not yet being given by most pediatricians.


In fact, it is technically incorrect to say "thimerosal has been removed," because it hasn't been "removed."  Instead, manufacturers began producing thimerosal-free vaccines--but continued to sell and distribute the old, thimerosal-preserved children's vaccines to pediatricians, who used them until at least 2004.

 

They still manufacture the thimerosal-preserved children's vaccines, by the way. They send them to less-developed countries, where the autism rate is (not surprisingly) drastically increasing.

 

In addition, the flu shot (most doses of which are thimerosal-preserved) has been given to infants as young as 6 months, with repeating doses every year, as well as to women in all stages of pregnancy.  Thimerosal is known to cross both placenta and blood-brain barrier.

 

The truth is, it is not known what percentage of the "2012" autism generation received thimerosal-free shots, or no shots at all.  But the assumption is that the vast majority of them (like the vast majority of all children in the US) were vaccinated on schedule with the available vaccines (i.e., thimerosal-preserved).

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#9 of 126 Old 06-25-2012, 04:26 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm going to remind everyone or our Copyright Rules which state that the quote may not be over 100 words.  So if you are quoting, please make sure to keep it under 100 words.  You can always check at http://www.wordcounttool.com/


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I'm not sure it's relevant what percentage of children get thimerosal containing vaccines until it is demonstrated thimerosal causes autism. The iom not only couldn't find evidence it did it found evidence to reject the link, an unusually strong statement.
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I'm not sure it's relevant what percentage of children get thimerosal containing vaccines until it is demonstrated thimerosal causes autism. The iom not only couldn't find evidence it did it found evidence to reject the link, an unusually strong statement.

But that's putting the cart before the horse.  


First of all, you're mistakenly assuming that either thimerosal causes autism or it doesn't cause autism.

 

Thimerosal may be just one of many causal factors in autism.  It may cause or trigger autism in a group of predisposed children, while not affecting others at all, and it also seems to  be a significant causal factor in other developmental problems.

 

All of that makes it completely relevant to aks what percentage of children get thimerosal-containing vaccines.

 

Second of all, you're assuming--again, mistakenly--that the percentage of children getting TCVs is not relevant "until it's demonstrated thimerosal causes autism."  What about all the other serious health concerns associated with thimerosal?

 

 

http://www.vaccinationnews.com/evidence-thimerosal-risk

http://www.vaccinationnews.com/evidence-thimerosal-risk-page-2

 

Perhaps the IOM didn't see the following studies (which are only some of the ones listed):

 

 

Med Hypotheses. 2001 Apr;56(4):462-71.

Autism: a novel form of mercury poisoning.

Bernard SEnayati ARedwood LRoger HBinstock T.

ARC Research, Cranford, New Jersey 07901, USA.

 

"A review of medical literature and US government data suggests that: (i) many cases of idiopathic autism are induced by early mercury exposure from thimerosal; (ii) this type of autism represents an unrecognized mercurial syndrome; and (iii) genetic and non-genetic factors establish a predisposition whereby thimerosal's adverse effects occur only in some children."

*****************************************

 

T h e U C I U n d e r g r a d u a t e R e s e a r c h J o u r n a l (2003)

 

Thimerosal Induces Programmed Cell Death of Neuronal Cells via

Changes in the Mitochondrial Environment

Brown L

"The results suggest that thimerosal causes apoptosis via the mitochondrial pathway and warrant continued efforts to find a replacement compound."

********************************************************

 

 

Exp Biol Med (Maywood). 2003 Oct;228(9):991-2; discussion 993-4.

Questions about thimerosal remain.

Mann JR.

"All these issues aside, the authors’ findings are interesting and potentially very important, as they do give some support to what the authors note is generally a skeptically-viewed theory about the possible connection between thimerosal-containing vaccines and neurodevelopmental disorders. Perhaps future researchcan build on their work. In the meantime, it seems prudent for clinicians to use thimerosal-free vaccines when possible.

**************************************

 

 

Drugs. 2001;61(5):565-72.

Vaccines without thiomersal: why so necessary, why so long coming?

van't Veen AJ.

Department of Dermatology and Venereology, Erasmus University Hospital Rotterdam-Dijkzigt, Rotterdam, The Netherlands.

The very low thiomersal concentrations in pharmacological and biological products are relatively non-toxic, but probably not in utero and during the first 6 months of life. The developing brain of the fetus is most susceptible to thiomersal and, therefore, women of childbearing age, in particular, should not receive thiomersal-containing products. Definitive data of doses at which developmentaal effects occur are not available.  Moreover, revelation of subtle effects of toxicity needs long term observations of children.....The prevalence of thiomersal hypersensitivity in mostly selected populations varies up to 18%, but higher figures have been reported. ... Replacement of thiomersal in all products should have a high priority in all countries."

 

***********************************

 

Neurotoxicology. 2001 Oct;22(5):691-7.

 

Predicted mercury concentrations in hair from infant immunizations: cause for concern.

Redwood LBernard SBrown D.

 

 

Given that exposure to low levels of mercury during critical stages of development has been associated with neurological disorders in children, including ADD, learning difficulties, and speech delays, the predicted hair Hg concentration resulting from childhood immunizations is cause for concern. Based on these findings, the impact which vaccinal mercury has had on the health of American children warrants further investigation.

***************************************************

 

Int Arch Allergy Immunol. 1994 Jul;104(3):296-301.

Thimerosal induces toxic reaction in non-sensitized animals.

Uchida TNaito SKato HHatano IHarashima ATerada YOhkawa TChino FEto K.

Department of Safety Research on Biologics, National Institute of Health, Tokyo, Japan.

Comment in:

 

These results suggest that part of these hypersensitivity reactions against thimerosal observed among patients were possibly induced by the toxic effect of thimerosal. Therefore, thimerosal contained as a preservative in vaccine may augment the side-effects of the vaccination.

 

****************************************************

 

 

Dermatol Clin. 1990 Jan;8(1):161-4.

Reactions to thimerosal in hepatitis B vaccines.

Rietschel RLAdams RM.

Department of Dermatology, Ochsner Clinic, New Orleans, Louisiana.

 

 

Hypersensitivity to thimerosal in vaccines has been reported to induce persistent local reactions, urticarial and generalized exanthematic eruptions, and, in the case of the hepatitis B vaccine, urticaria with asthma. The authors describe two cases of extensive reactions, one in a patient who did not form antibodies to the principal vaccine antigen. Although not all thimerosal-sensitive patients develop adverse reactions to vaccines containing this material, there is a potential risk, and the reactions can be very long lasting.

******************************************************

Contact Dermatitis. 1988 Apr;18(4):229-33.

Thiomersal allergy and vaccination reactions.

Cox NHForsyth A.

Department of Dermatology, Royal Victoria Infirmary, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, UK.

Delayed hypersensitivity to thiomersal was demonstrated in 1% of individuals attending the Contact Dermatitis Investigatio Unit, and 50 of these patients with positive patch tests to thiomersal were studied....individual cases of severe reactions to thiomersal demonstrate a need for vaccines with an alternative preservative.

******************************************************************

Arch Toxicol. 1985 Sep;57(4):260-7.

The comparative toxicology of ethyl- and methylmercury.

Magos LBrown AWSparrow SBailey ESnowden RTSkipp WR.

 

 

Based on both criteria, an equimolar dose of ethylmercury was less neurotoxic than methylmercury, but a 20% increase in the dose of ethylmercury was enough to raise the sum of coordination disorder scores slightly and ganglion damage significantly above those in methylmercury-treated rats

********************************************

Contact Dermatitis. 1980 Jun;6(4):241-5.

Merthiolate hypersensitivity and vaccination.

Förström LHannuksela MKousa MLehmuskallio E.

 

Since merthiolate-sensitive patients also react to merthiolate administered intracutaneously, the vaccinator should avoid the use of a needle whose outer surface has been contaminated when the vaccine was aspirated from the bottle. However, even when this precautionary measure is taken, local reactions can be expected in such a high percentage of merthiolate-sensitive persons that merthiolate in vaccines should be replaced by another antibacterial agent.

*************************************************

J Neurol Neurosurg Psychiatry. 1980 Feb;43(2):143-9.

Accidental ethyl mercury poisoning with nervous system, skeletal muscle, and myocardium injury.

Cinca IDumitrescu IOnaca PSerbänescu ANestorescu B.

 

The clinical, electrophysiological, and toxicological, and in two of the patients the pathological data, showed that this organic mercury compound has a very high toxicity not only for the brain, but also for the spinal motoneurones, peripheral nerves, skeletal muscles, and myocardium.

*********************************************

Toxicology. 1979 Mar-Apr;12(3):325-33.

Problems associated with the use of merthiolate as a preservative in anti-lymphocytic globulin.

Heyworth MFTruelove SC.

 

Evidence was obtaied to suggest that this effect was due to merthiolate (sodium ethylmercurithiosalicylate) which had been added to the ALG as preservative during manufacture. The mercury concentration in the ALG was found to be greater than that stated by the manufacturers.  It is conceivable that the clinical use of such as ALG preparation might lead to mercury accumulation in the tissues, with resulting toxic effects.  The whole question of the use of merthiolate in the preparation of sera for administration to human subjects needs to be reconsidered.

******************************************

Arch Ophthalmol. 1975 Jan;93(1):52-55.

Teratogenicities of ophthalmic drugs. II. Teratogenicities and tissue accumulation of thimerosal.

Gasset ARItoi MIshii YRamer RM.

 

A comparison of topical and subcutaneous administration of thimerosal to rabbits shows that a substantial concentration of mercury was present in blood and tissues of the treated animals and their offspring. Thimerosal was found to cross the blood-brain and placenta barriers.

*********************************

Neurochem Res. 2011 Feb 25. [Epub ahead of print]

Integrating Experimental (In Vitro and In Vivo) Neurotoxicity Studies of Low-dose Thimerosal Relevant to Vaccines.

Dórea JG.

Faculty of Health Sciences, Universidade de Brasília, C.P. 04322, 70919-970, Brasília, DF, Brazil, dorea@rudah.com.br.

Information extracted from studies indicates that: (a) activity of low doses of Thimerosal against isolated human and animal brain cells was found in all studies and is consistent with Hg neurotoxicity; (b) the neurotoxic effect of ethylmercury has not been studied with co-occurring adjuvant-Al in TCVs; (c) animal studies have shown that exposure to Thimerosal-Hg can lead to accumulation of inorganic Hg in brain, and that (d) doses relevant to TCV exposure possess the potential to affect human neuro-development. Thimerosal at concentrations relevant for infants' exposure (in vaccines) is toxic to cultured human-brain cells and to laboratory animals.

**************************

Middle East Current Psychiatry

January 2011 - Volume 18 - Issue 1 - p 6–10 
doi: 10.1097/01.XME.0000392842.64112.64 
Study of some biomarkers in hair of children with autism 
Elsheshtawy, Emana; Tobar, Salwaa; Sherra, Khalida; Atallah, Sohaylab; Elkasaby, Rashac 
Correspondence to Eman Elsheshtawy, Department of Psychiatry Mansoura University Hospitals, Faculty of Medicine, Mansoura, Egypt

 There were highly significant differences between the level of these substances in the hair of children with autism compared with controls, positive correlation of CARS score with both mercury and copper,

 

ConclusionThese preliminary results suggest a complementary role for the studied elements in the pathogenesis of autistic disorder, which should be considered in the management plane. 

***************************************

Folia Neuropathol. 2010;48(4):258-69.

Lasting neuropathological changes in rat brain after intermittent neonatal administration of thimerosal.

Olczak MDuszczyk MMierzejewski PWierzba-Bobrowicz TMajewska MD.

Department of Pharmacology and Physiology of the Nervous System, Institute of Psychiatry and Neurology, ul. Sobieskiego 9, Warsaw, Poland.

These findings document neurotoxic effects of thimerosal, at doses equivalent to those used in infant vaccines or higher, in developing rat brain, suggesting likely involvement of this mercurial in neurodevelopmental disorders.

*********************************

Cell Biol Toxicol. 2010 Apr;26(2):143-52. Epub 2009 Apr 9.

Induction of metallothionein in mouse cerebellum and cerebrum with low-dose thimerosal injection.

Minami TMiyata ESakamoto YYamazaki HIchida S.

Department of Life Sciences, Kinki University, Higashi-osaka, Osaka, Japan. minamita@life.kindai.ac.jp

 As a result of the present findings, in combination with the brain pathology observed in patients diagnosed with autism, the present study helps to support the possible biological plausibility for how low-dose exposure to mercury from thimerosal-containing vaccines may be associated with autism.

*********************************

 

Clin Chim Acta. 2010 Nov 11;411(21-22):1580-6. Epub 2010 Jul 16.

Making sense of epidemiological studies of young children exposed to thimerosal in vaccines.

Dórea JG.

C.P. 04322, Universidade de Brasilia, 70919-970 Brasilia, DF, Brazil. dorea@rudah.com.br

 

Information extracted from the studies done in the USA, the UK, and Italy is important in understanding the complex interplay of variables but insufficient to establish non-toxicity for infants and young children still receiving TCV: a) there is ambiguity in some studies reporting neurodevelopment outcomes that seem to depend on confounding variables; b) the risk of neurotoxicity due to low doses of thimerosal is plausible at least for susceptible infants; 

*************************************************

Acta Neurobiol Exp (Wars). 2010;70(2):196-208.

Age-dependent lower or higher levels of hair mercury in autistic children than in healthy controls.

Majewska MDUrbanowicz ERok-Bujko PNamyslowska IMierzejewski P.

Department of Pharmacology and Physiology of the Nervous System, Institute of Psychiatry and Neurology, Warsaw, Poland. majewska@ipin.edu.pl

 

Autistic children had a significantly greater prevalence of adverse reactions after vaccinations and abnormal development than controls. Between 45 and 80% of autistic children experienced developmental regress. Autistic children significantly differed from healthy peers in the concentrations of mercury in hair: younger autistics had lower levels, while older - higher levels than their respective controls. The results suggest that autistic children differ from healthy children in metabolism of mercury, which seems to change with age.

*********************************************

Talanta. 2010 Jan 15;80(3):1158-63.

Methylmercury and inorganic mercury determination in blood by using liquid chromatography with inductively coupled plasma mass spectrometry and a fast sample preparation procedure.

Rodrigues JLde Souza SSde Oliveira Souza VCBarbosa F Jr.

Laboratório de Toxicologia e Essencialidade de Metais, Faculdade de Ciências Farmacêuticas de Ribeirão Preto, Universidade de São Paulo, Ribeirão Preto, SP, Brazil.

 

Finally, after the application of the proposed method, we demonstrated an interesting in vivo ethylmercury conversion to inorganic mercury.

*******************************************

Exp Toxicol Pathol. 2009 Mar;61(2):133-6. Epub 2008 Sep 3.

Gender-selective toxicity of thimerosal.

Branch DR.

Departments of Medicine and Laboratory Medicine and Pathobiology, University of Toronto, Ontario, Canada. don.branch@utoronto.ca

 

Thus, our studies, although not directly addressing the controversy surrounding thimerosal and autism, and still preliminary due to small numbers of mice examined, provide, nevertheless, the first report of gender-selective toxicity of thimerosal and indicate that any future studies of thimerosal toxicity should take into consideration gender-specific differences.

*****************************************

Curr Med Chem. 2008;15(28):3000-10.

Kawasaki's disease, acrodynia, and mercury.

Mutter JYeter D.

Department of Environmental and Complementary Medicine, Salusmed Medical Center, Wieslistrasse 34, CH - 8267 Berlingen, Switzerland. jo.mutter@web.de

 

Coinciding with the largest increase (1985-1990) of thimerosal (49.6% ethyl mercury) in vaccines, routinely given to infants in the U.S. by 6 months of age (from 75microg to 187.5microg), the rates of Kawasaki's Disease increased ten times, and, later (1985-1997), by 20 times. Since 1990 88 cases of patients developing Kawasaki's Disease some days after vaccination have been reported to the Centers of Disease Control (CDC) including 19% manifesting symptoms the same day. 

************************************

Altern Ther Health Med. 2008 Nov-Dec;14(6):46-53.

A possible central mechanism in autism spectrum disorders, part 1.

Blaylock RL.

Belhaven College, Jackson, Mississippi, USA.

A careful review of ASD cases discloses a number of events that adhere to an immunoexcitotoxic mechanism. This mechanism explains the link between excessive vaccination, use of aluminum and ethylmercury as vaccine adjuvants, food allergies, gut dysbiosis, and abnormal formation of the developing brain.

******************************************

J Neurol Sci. 2008 Aug 15;271(1-2):110-8. Epub 2008 May 15.

Thimerosal exposure in infants and neurodevelopmental disorders: an assessment of computerized medical records in the Vaccine Safety Datalink.

Young HAGeier DAGeier MR.

The George Washington University School of Public Health and Health Services, Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics, United States.

 

Consistent significantly increased rate ratios were observed for autism, autism spectrum disorders, tics, attention deficit disorder, and emotional disturbances with Hg exposure from TCVs. By contrast, none of the control outcomes had significantly increased rate ratios with Hg exposure from TCVs

**************************************

Neurotoxicology. 2008 May;29(3):532-45. Epub 2008 Feb 23.

Immunologic and neurodevelopmental susceptibilities of autism.

Pessah INSeegal RFLein PJLaSalle JYee BKVan De Water JBerman RF.

School of Veterinary Medicine, University of California, Davis, CA 95616, USA. inpessah@ucdavis.edu

 

The immune system of children at risk of autism may be therefore especially susceptible to psychological stressors, exposure to chemical triggers, and infectious agents. 

*************************************

J Matern Fetal Neonatal Med. 2007 May;20(5):385-90.

A prospective study of thimerosal-containing Rho(D)-immune globulin administration as a risk factor for autistic disorders.

Geier DAGeier MR.

The Institute of Chronic Illnesses, Silver Spring, MD, USA.

Children with ASDs (28.30%) were significantly more likely (odds ratio 2.35, 95% confidence interval 1.17-4.52, p < 0.01) to have Rh-negative mothers than controls (14.36%). Each ASD patient's mother was determined to have been administered a TCR during her pregnancy.

***********************************************************

Toxicol Sci. 2006 Jul;92(1):246-53. Epub 2006 Apr 19.

Thimerosal induces apoptosis in a neuroblastoma model via the cJun N-terminal kinase pathway.

Herdman MLMarcelo AHuang YNiles RMDhar SKiningham KK.

Department of Pharmacology, Joan C. Edwards School of Medicine, Marshall University, 1542 Spring Valley Drive, Huntington, WV 25704, USA.

 

Taken together, these results indicate that thimerosal-induced neurotoxicity occurs through the JNK-signaling pathway, independent of cJun activation, leading ultimately to apoptotic cell death.

***********************************************

Neurotoxicology. 2006 Sep;27(5):685-92. Epub 2006 Jun 16.

Cultured lymphocytes from autistic children and non-autistic siblings up-regulate heat shock protein RNA in response to thimerosal challenge.

Walker SJSegal JAschner M.

Department of Physiology and Pharmacology, Wake Forest University School of Medicine, Winston-Salem, NC 27156, USA. swalker@wfubmc.edu

 

Thimerosal, an anti-microbial preservative previously added routinely to childhood multi-dose vaccines, is composed of 49.6% ethyl mercury. Based on the levels of this toxin that children receive through routine immunization schedules in the first years of life, it has been postulated that thimerosal may be a potential triggering mechanism contributing to autism in susceptible individuals. One potential risk factor in these individuals may be an inability to adequately up-regulate metallothionein (MT) biosynthesis in response to presentation of a heavy metal challenge. 

*************************************************

Neuro Endocrinol Lett. 2005 Oct;26(5):439-46.

Mercury and autism: accelerating evidence?

Mutter JNaumann JSchneider RWalach HHaley B.

Institute for Environmental Medicine and Hospital Epidemiology, University Hospital Freiburg, Germany. joachim.mutter@uniklinik-freiburg.de

 

Repetitive doses of thimerosal leads to neurobehavioral deteriorations in autoimmune susceptible mice, increased oxidative stress and decreased intracellular levels of glutathione in vitro. Subsequently, autistic children have significantly decreased level of reduced glutathione. 

 

 

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I found a Cochrane Summary about MMR vaccines (http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD004407/using-the-combined-vaccine-for-protection-of-children-against-measles-mumps-and-rubella). The objective of this review was

 

 

Quote:

To assess the effectiveness and adverse effects associated with the MMR vaccine in children up to 15 years of age.

 

 

Cochrane calls itself "Independent high-quality evidence for health care decision making" and they do literature reviews of published studies. Full disclosure: I know someone who works for Cochrane (part time; and they are not involved in this - they study the impact of flooring choices on injuries of older people in falls.)

 

In the summary about the MMR vaccine  (which was published in Feb 2012) the authors conclude: 

 

 

Quote:

We could assess no significant association between MMR immunisation and the following conditions: autism, asthma, leukaemia, hay fever, type 1 diabetes, gait disturbance, Crohn's disease, demyelinating diseases, or bacterial or viral infections. The methodological quality of many of the included studies made it difficult to generalise their results.

 


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The iom looks t the body of evidence, so the existence of some studies to the contrary doesn't negate their opinion. Yes, thimerosal either causes autism or it doesn't. If it causes it in even a few people then it causes autism. The other alleged neurological conditions are not relevant to this debate.
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The iom looks t the body of evidence, so the existence of some studies to the contrary doesn't negate their opinion. Yes, thimerosal either causes autism or it doesn't. If it causes it in even a few people then it causes autism. The other alleged neurological conditions are not relevant to this debate.

No, that doesn't hold true, because if thimerosal toxicity is one factor of a path to autism, a path that may include

genetic predisposition,

or perhaps vitamin deficiencies (vitamin D deficiency has been shown to cause glutathione depletion, and glutathionie is necessary for heavy metal excretion),

or some other pre-existing condition (such as previous vaccine damage, mitochondrial disfunction or severe bowel disorder),

then it's simply unscientific to say "thimerosal either causes autism or it doesn't."  That statement puts thimerosal and autism together in a vacuum, which doesn't exist.

 

The topic being discussed is "vaccinated children are more likely to have autism than unvaccinated children," not "thimerosal is the one and only factor involved in autism."

 

If vaccination is the straw that breaks the proverbial camel's back, resulting in predisposed children to develop autism, then yes, vaccinated children are more likely to develop autism.  Hannah Poling is a perfect example.

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Ok, I think the difference is semantics and we just are interpreting the statement "thimerosal causes autism" differently.
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I found a Cochrane Summary about MMR vaccines (http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD004407/using-the-combined-vaccine-for-protection-of-children-against-measles-mumps-and-rubella). The objective of this review was

 

 

 

Cochrane calls itself "Independent high-quality evidence for health care decision making" and they do literature reviews of published studies. Full disclosure: I know someone who works for Cochrane (part time; and they are not involved in this - they study the impact of flooring choices on injuries of older people in falls.)

 

In the summary about the MMR vaccine  (which was published in Feb 2012) the authors conclude: 

 

 

In the same summary, the authors also conclude: "Results from two very large case series studies involving about 1,500,000 children who were given the MMR vaccine containing Urabe or Leningrad-Zagreb strains show this vaccine to be associated with aseptic meningitis; whereas administration of the vaccine containing Moraten, Jeryl Lynn, Wistar RA, RIT 4385 strains is associated with febrile convulsion in children aged below five years (one person-time cohort study, 537,171 participants; two self controlled case series studies, 1001 participants). "

 

But, published only two weeks earlier, was this study, where the authors conclude that febrile convulsions are correlated with autistic regression:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22290858

 

 

J Child Neurol. 2012 Jan 30. [Epub ahead of print]

Risk Factors for Autistic Regression: Results of an Ambispective Cohort Study.

Source

Department of Child Health Care, Children's Hospital of Fudan University,Shanghai, China

This study suggests that febrile seizures and family history of neuropsychiatric disorders are correlated with autistic regression.

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My thoughts:

 

1.  I believe the real rate of autism has increased.

 

I am aware there is some controversy  on whether the sharp spike in autism is because autism rates are climbing or because of better diagnosis, etc.  http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/30/health/rate-of-autism-diagnoses-has-climbed-study-finds.html ,  but I come down firmly on the side of "real autism rates have risen."  

 

Autism speaks says this:http://blog.autismspeaks.org/2010/10/22/got-questions-answers-to-your-questions-from-the-autism-speaks’-science-staff-2/

 

"Based on the abovementioned research, approximately 53% percent of the increase in autism prevalence over time may be explained by changes in diagnosis (26%), greater awareness (16%), and an increase in parental age (11%).  While this research is beginning to help us understand the increase in autism prevalence, half of the increase is still unexplained and not due to better diagnosis, greater awareness, and social factors alone. Environmental factors, and their interactions with genetic susceptibilities, are likely contributors to increase in prevalence ."

 

While anecdotal, a real rise in autism mimics what I have seen.  Moreover, many people I know who work with kids report a rise in autism as well. 

 

2.  As there is a real rise, it must be partly environmental.   There are no genetic epidemics. 

 Here is an article that looks at a Stanford study - http://med.stanford.edu/ism/2011/july/autism.html

 

": It found that genes account for 38 percent of autism risk, with environmental factors explaining the remaining 62 percent."

 

3.  We do not know what environmental factors have caused the rise in autism.  Lots of ideas have been floated - maternal/paternal age, living close to a highway, medication while pregnant (antidepressants), thyroid issues, antibiotics, etc, etc.  Vaccine are one theory.  I tend to think for most people it is a combination of environmental factors  (plus genetic tendency) that trigger autism.  

 

4.  We do not know that vaccines do not trigger or act as a contributing factor to autism in some people.  Most studies that have been done look at one thing (ex: thimerosal) and make conclusions about that.  

 

Moreover, you really have to look at studies before agreeing with their findings:  who did it? was there bias? conflict of interest? how big was the sample?

 

You also need to really look at the study - as often the conclusions or headlines do not mesh with the content of the study.

 

Here is an example :  rachel posted this quote and link  "A community-based case-control study found no relationship between the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine and autism spectrum disorders, researchers reported here."

http://www.medpagetoday.com/InfectiousDisease/Vaccines/8280"

 

The study actually looked at autism rates in people who had one or two MMR vaccines.  It did not look at the unvaxxed at all - yet their headline said there was no link between MMR and ASD  banghead.gif

 

 

"No Link Found Between MMR Vaccine and Autism Spectrum Disorders

All participants had blood drawn and all had had at least one MMR vaccination."

 

5.  There is lots of anecdotal evidence that vaccines contribute to autism.  

Here is a page full of anecdotes:

http://www.followingvaccinations.com/

I know anecdotes have limitations and I know correlation is not causation (although it isn't nothing - either - you don't hear a bunch of parents claiming tylenol or LED lights caused their childrens autism, do you?).  None-the-less, when a parent says their child was fine, got their 18 month shot and was never fine again, I tend to believe them. Anything else is condescending and patronising.  I am sure some of it may be coincidence - but all?  I doubt it.

 

So - to recap:  autism rates are rising, there are environmental triggers for autism, many parents believe vaccines did contribute to their child's autism, and  a lot of the studies do not disprove a vaccine autism connection, IMHO.  They often look at ingedients in isolation, have questionable conclusions, etc.  

 

 

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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

My thoughts:

 

1.  I believe the real rate of autism has increased.

 

I am aware there is some controversy  on whether the sharp spike in autism is because autism rates are climbing or because of better diagnosis, etc.  http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/30/health/rate-of-autism-diagnoses-has-climbed-study-finds.html ,  but I come down firmly on the side of "real autism rates have risen."  

 

Autism speaks says this:http://blog.autismspeaks.org/2010/10/22/got-questions-answers-to-your-questions-from-the-autism-speaks’-science-staff-2/

 

"Based on the abovementioned research, approximately 53% percent of the increase in autism prevalence over time may be explained by changes in diagnosis (26%), greater awareness (16%), and an increase in parental age (11%).  While this research is beginning to help us understand the increase in autism prevalence, half of the increase is still unexplained and not due to better diagnosis, greater awareness, and social factors alone. Environmental factors, and their interactions with genetic susceptibilities, are likely contributors to increase in prevalence ."

 

While anecdotal, a real rise in autism mimics what I have seen.  Moreover, many people I know who work with kids report a rise in autism as well. 

 

2.  As there is a real rise, it must be partly environmental.   There are no genetic epidemics. 

 Here is an article that looks at a Stanford study - http://med.stanford.edu/ism/2011/july/autism.html

 

": It found that genes account for 38 percent of autism risk, with environmental factors explaining the remaining 62 percent."

 

3.  We do not know what environmental factors have caused the rise in autism.  Lots of ideas have been floated - maternal/paternal age, living close to a highway, medication while pregnant (antidepressants), thyroid issues, antibiotics, etc, etc.  Vaccine are one theory.  I tend to think for most people it is a combination of environmental factors  (plus genetic tendency) that trigger autism.  

 

4.  We do not know that vaccines do not trigger or act as a contributing factor to autism in some people.  Most studies that have been done look at one thing (ex: thimerosal) and make conclusions about that.  

 

Moreover, you really have to look at studies before agreeing with their findings:  who did it? was there bias? conflict of interest? how big was the sample?

 

You also need to really look at the study - as often the conclusions or headlines do not mesh with the content of the study.

 

Here is an example :  rachel posted this quote and link  "A community-based case-control study found no relationship between the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine and autism spectrum disorders, researchers reported here."

http://www.medpagetoday.com/InfectiousDisease/Vaccines/8280"

 

The study actually looked at autism rates in people who had one or two MMR vaccines.  It did not look at the unvaxxed at all - yet their headline said there was no link between MMR and ASD  banghead.gif

 

 

"No Link Found Between MMR Vaccine and Autism Spectrum Disorders

All participants had blood drawn and all had had at least one MMR vaccination."

 

5.  There is lots of anecdotal evidence that vaccines contribute to autism.  

Here is a page full of anecdotes:

http://www.followingvaccinations.com/

I know anecdotes have limitations and I know correlation is not causation (although it isn't nothing - either - you don't hear a bunch of parents claiming tylenol or LED lights caused their childrens autism, do you?).  None-the-less, when a parent says their child was fine, got their 18 month shot and was never fine again, I tend to believe them. Anything else is condescending and patronising.  I am sure some of it may be coincidence and looking for something to blame- but all?  I doubt it.

 

So - to recap:  autism rates are rising, there are environmental triggers for autism, many parents believe vaccines did contribute to their child's autism, and  a lot of the studies do not disprove a vaccine autism connection, IMHO.  They often look at ingedients in isolation, have questionable conclusions, etc.  

 

 

Well, that'll teach me to look at all the details next time--I TOTALLY missed that.

 

Unbelievable--they compared kids who got one MMR with kids who got two, and concluded that there is no link between MMR and autism?  That's not science--that's marketing hype!

 

That's like comparing people who smoke one pack of cigarettes per day with people who smoke two, and concluding that cigarettes don't cause cancer.

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#19 of 126 Old 06-26-2012, 09:38 AM
 
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  None-the-less, when a parent says their child was fine, got their 18 month shot and was never fine again, I tend to believe them. Anything else is condescending and patronising.  I am sure some of it may be coincidence and looking for something to blame- but all?  I doubt it.

 

 

 

 

I don't know that any parent of a child who may have suffered a vaccine injury is looking for something to blame. I think they're trying to find how to fix the damage, as soon as possible, and with as much information as possible.  But, as we all know, there are an awful lot of roadblocks--some of which are intentional--put in the way of treating, even identifying vaccine injuries.

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#20 of 126 Old 06-26-2012, 09:51 AM
 
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I don't know that any parent of a child who may have suffered a vaccine injury is looking for something to blame.

 

IMO- this is a HUGH generalization that I can't back up with fact-can you?

 

I see the complete opposite- there are parents that DO blame and they file suites and report the injury (s). There could be a whole thread just on those who file. You don't file and seek damages if you don't blame.


 

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I don't know that any parent of a child who may have suffered a vaccine injury is looking for something to blame. I think they're trying to find how to fix the damage, as soon as possible, and with as much information as possible.  But, as we all know, there are an awful lot of roadblocks--some of which are intentional--put in the way of treating, even identifying vaccine injuries.

I think it is pretty natural, when something goes wrong with our children, to look around  and see what might be the or a cause.  I don't think blame is a bad thing as defined by the dictionary ( Blame is defined as:  to hold responsible; find fault with; censure. ) but it is a loaded word.  I will reword - I don't think parents are picking something out of thin air to pin autism on.  I think some might blame vaccines on some level, but I do not think they are looking for something to blame

 

I also think it is natural (and  fairly brave and noble) for parents who have vaccine injured children to let the world know what happened and that they believe vaccines injured their child.  They are trying to add to a body of knowledge and let parents know that these things happen.  

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IMO- this is a HUGH generalization that I can't back up with fact-can you?

 

I see the complete opposite- there are parents that DO blame and they file suites and report the injury (s). There could be a whole thread just on those who file. You don't file and seek damages if you don't blame.

I said looking for something to blame - which I edited out.  I do think many parents do blame vaccines for injuries - but I do not think they are looking for something to blame.  

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#23 of 126 Old 06-26-2012, 10:00 AM
 
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Kathy, that is why I really out a lot of faith in the statements from people like the IOM and cochrane. They are made who of people tremendously well qualified to assess the data and studies and weigh various studies appropriately according to how well designed, etc, they are.
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#24 of 126 Old 06-26-2012, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Okay - if I may make a suggestion.  Perhaps not putting a wall of information into one post might be more effective.  I have checked quotes and none of them seem to be over 100 words, so we're clear on copyright violations, however the giant wall of quotes and links that we seem to be favoring this round makes it very hard to read and fully grasp.  


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#25 of 126 Old 06-26-2012, 10:29 AM
 
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Okay - if I may make a suggestion.  Perhaps not putting a wall of information into one post might be more effective.  I have checked quotes and none of them seem to be over 100 words, so we're clear on copyright violations, however the giant wall of quotes and links that we seem to be favoring this round makes it very hard to read and fully grasp.  

Oh.  I thought it would be better to have one post of quotes/links refuting Rrrrachel's assertions that 1) there were no studies showing a link between vaccines and autism other than Wakefield's and 2) that it is not relevant how many children get thimerosal-preserved vaccines.

 

Did you want me to separate all those links into separate posts?

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#26 of 126 Old 06-26-2012, 10:32 AM
 
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IMO- this is a HUGH generalization that I can't back up with fact-can you?

 

I see the complete opposite- there are parents that DO blame and they file suites and report the injury (s). There could be a whole thread just on those who file. You don't file and seek damages if you don't blame.

Exactly where do you see people in the US filing damages against vaccines for autism?

You CAN'T sue the doctors or the vaccine manufacturers, no matter what, and HHS is very clear--they do not consider autism to be compensable.

 

So who is filing and seeking damages for vaccine-induced autism?

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#27 of 126 Old 06-26-2012, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

Oh.  I thought it would be better to have one post of quotes/links refuting Rrrrachel's assertions that 1) there were no studies showing a link between vaccines and autism other than Wakefield's and 2) that it is not relevant how many children get thimerosal-preserved vaccines.

 

Did you want me to separate all those links into separate posts?

 

It might help with making your point.  That is kind of hard to digest in that huge giant post.  Eyes glaze over....:)  


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#28 of 126 Old 06-26-2012, 11:33 AM
 
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So who is filing and seeking damages for vaccine-induced autism?

Hannah Poling 

 

do you count what occurred in Italy? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2160054/MMR-A-mothers-victory-The-vast-majority-doctors-say-link-triple-jab-autism-Italian-court-case-reignite-controversial-debate.html#ixzz1xu7lMBW5


 

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#29 of 126 Old 06-26-2012, 03:24 PM
 
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Hannah Poling's case was for vaccine-induced brain damage.  Her parents (and lawyer) were smart enough to keep the word "autism" out of her case, knowing that mention of the word "autism" would get her case automatically thrown out of court.

 

To my knowledge, based on what I have read about her case, her parents were not blindly and frantically looking for something to blame.  They had solid evidence that the 9 vaccines Hannah received caused severe brain damage.  They were absolutely correct to file a claim; in fact, it could be thought that NOT filing a claim would be irresponsible, because it would have allowed people to go on thinking that vaccine injuries like Hannah's don't happen, when, obviously, they do.

 

In Italy, they are apparently allowed to sue for vaccine-induced autism. Here in the US, you cannot.  You cannot sue the vaccine manufacturers, the doctors, nor the government (who mandates the vaccines) for vaccine-induced autism.

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#30 of 126 Old 06-26-2012, 03:42 PM
 
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Seems like the conversation about thimerosal and autism is off topic. The topic is whether or not vaccinated children have more autism. Studies done so far say yes:

 

Generation Rescue, which has a vested interest, did a phone survey, which indicates that vaccinated boys are more likely than unvaccinated boys to have autism, ADHD, or neurological disorders. 

 

Study indicating that boys who receive all three thimerosal containing Hep B shots are more likely to have developmental disabilities than their unvaccinated peers.

 

Anecdotal information on Mayer Eisenstein's practice in Chicago.

 

Dam Olmstead's on the Amish and Autism.

 

We should do a study of the Mothering community.

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