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#31 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 12:53 PM
 
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OP, which disease do you worry about, measles or mumps too? We are only worried about measles and are able to get that monovalent in Europe. In case you travel there frequently, something to think about, it's made by Merieux (Sanofi).

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#32 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 12:54 PM
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So why doesn't it make you furious when people discount deaths, brain damage, or autism that results from vaccinating people who had underlying health conditions?
Where is your outrage over the fact that Hannah Poling's autism resulted from vaccination on top of mitochondrial disorder, yet nobody is testing babies or children for mitochondrial disorder before vaccination--in spite of indications that autistic children are likely to have mitochondrial disorder? (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/11/101130161521.htm)
What about the recent study that indicates that the Hep B vaccine may play a role in causing mitochondrial disorder? (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22249285)
What if Hannah Poling's mito disorder was actually CAUSED by all the vaccines she'd had since birth? After all, her mother apparently has the same mito disorder; she was vaccinated as a child--but with far fewer vaccines than Hannah, that were given far later.
I don't understand how doctors can be furious at complacency about the possibility of complications from a usually harmless disease, but then turn around and be complacent about the complications from a usually harmless (we think....we don't know for sure) vaccine.


If you read my first post in the thread, you will note that concerns about vaccine safety are among the concerns that I think are valid when considering getting the MMR vaccination.  My remarks were focused on the seriousness of measles, mumps, and rubella, and the perception that they aren't worth worrying about, and at the perception that if something only affects kids with underlying health conditions, it somehow doesn't count. 

 

Further, I reserve the right to direct my fury where I will.  I'm not obligated to be furious about everything on the planet, or even about everything you're furious about.  Why don't your favorite issues make me furious?  I just don't think about them that much, and as we have well established over the past several months, when I do, I don't interpret them the same way you do.  You don't need my support to share your concerns about the MMR vaccine. 

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#33 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 01:47 PM
 
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#34 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 01:52 PM
 
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FWIW - I do think there has been a decent number of mumps floating around in the past few years.  This might be a sign the vaccine is not that  effective wink1.gif

 

The time to vaccinate against mumps, IMHO and if one feels so inclined, is post puberty for males.  It is a relatively benign disease for most in childhood.  

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#35 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 02:54 PM
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FWIW - I do think there has been a decent number of mumps floating around in the past few years.  This might be a sign the vaccine is not that  effective wink1.gif

 

The time to vaccinate against mumps, IMHO and if one feels so inclined, is post puberty for males.  It is a relatively benign disease in childhood.  


Things that cause thick mucous, like mumps, are not benign to my child.  That's a recipe for pneumonia.  Just FYI, as a mom who has a couple years of dealing with chest infections to a mom who is still considering what vaccines would help protect a child from chest infections. 

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#36 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 03:10 PM
 
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Things that cause thick mucous, like mumps, are not benign to my child.  That's a recipe for pneumonia.  Just FYI, as a mom who has a couple years of dealing with chest infections to a mom who is still considering what vaccines would help protect a child from chest infections. 

 

Thanks, stik.

 

K.

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#37 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 03:26 PM
 
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Measles is an extremely contagious disease that causes serious complications in a small percentage of people who get it, mostly in the very young, the very old, the immune-compromised and people with underlying health conditions. Because measles is so contagious, hospitalizing that small percentage of people who need hospital support as a result of measles is complicated. Hospitals are full of immunocompromised people who have serious health conditions and who are highly likely to suffer serious consequences if they get measles. There aren't that many quarantined hospital wards.

Mirzam, you've made it very clear that you think anyone who gets sick has only themselves and their dietary choices to blame. I find your reasoning flawed. You ignore germ theory and massive problems in public health infrastructure in favor of blaming sick people. I think your analysis would benefit from greater consideration of a wider variety of factors.

stik,I have heard your argument many times before. Fear-based, worst case scenarios is your reality not mine. You are so very wrong to assume that I believe anyone who gets sick has themselves or their diet to blame. However, wouldn't you say nutrition plays a huge role in how a person handles disease. I am sure you don't feed your children processed cr@p, laden with food additives, hfcs etc because diet has nothing to do with disease.  But I certainly don't blame germs. The germ theory is just that theory, and public health policies are based on dogma that the religion of medical science takes as holy truth, so will never question their beliefs. I have questioned, I will continue to question, my beliefs are not fixed in stone. Public health and its fear-based, one-size fits all policy is the problem, not those of us who choose not to believe in their religion. One of the most most important things I have learned over the past few years is the nature of reality, and how one creates one's own reality. Here is my reality: I have two completely unvaccinated children who are now in their teens (I also have a completely healthy partially vax adult child too), they have no behavioral issues, have never had an ear infection, strep, chest infections, UTIs etc, they do not have asthma, eczema or any food allergies. They are both honor roll students and excel in their respective sports of sport climbing and soccer, as in top in state/region. I have suggested to you before, if I am a source of annoyance for you to please put me on ignore.

 

I am glad you vaccinate your children if it gives you a sense of security and peace. 


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#38 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 03:49 PM
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As I have said before, I would regret putting you on ignore, even though you and I disagree on practically everything.

 

My children are every bit as delightful as yours, despite their excema, allergic rhinitis, asthma, and less-occasional-than-I-would-like-to-admit consumption of processed crap.  I'm pretty sure that's because of a fortuitous combination of luck and genetics.  And that is the full extent to which I am willing to allow my children to be involved in this or any other conversation about vaccination on MDC.  If I feel the need, I will bring them up.  Please stop talking about them now. 

 

Should you ever come across a scientific study that disproves germ theory, please do share. 

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#39 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 04:00 PM
 
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Here is my reality: I have two completely unvaccinated children ...

 

they have no behavioral issues, have never had an ear infection, strep, chest infections, UTIs etc, they do not have asthma, eczema or any food allergies. They are both honor roll students and excel in their respective sports...

 

That is my reality too. And it's not due to good genes. In fact, my husband got his genes tested and he has the absolute worst possible genetic combination in terms of autoimmunity, ability to detox, etc. For reasons I don't want to get into here, I'm almost sure my kids got those genes from him. I know they'd suffer from chronic illness and behavioral problems and learning problems if they were vaccinated. I've also never given them Tylenol.

 

We're not the best with diet, but certainly better than some.

 

I'm just really, really, really glad I got interested in the topic of vaccines before I knew what I know now about my kids. It's just one of those really lucky things.

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Are we playing "whose children are better" now?  Because I really don't see that as relevant to the OP.  There are great kids on both sides of the debate.

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#41 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 05:06 PM
 
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Things that cause thick mucous, like mumps, are not benign to my child. 

nor are NON-VPD!

 

in fact your child and those like your child, have a much greater risk of the common cold and yes that travels up and down from Philly to Boston and a bit faster and far more often- most people no longer stay home from work or keep their children home from school when they have the non-vac common mucous filled cold and your changes of exposure vs the slim minority that do not vac for MMR really posses a greater risk yet no one goes after these people - this is not an attack on you it simple is the truth that more people in the general population pose a greater over all risk to compromised people vs nonMMR vaced kiddies


 

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#42 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 05:11 PM
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I'm not denying it - non-VPDs suck too.  In years when she was more fragile, we kept my younger dd home from daycare when too many kids seemed sniffly.  We would still give it serious consideration if she had already had too much wheezing or pneumonia in a season.  And honestly, there is no way we would send her to school with an active measles or mumps outbreak among her peers, vaccinated or not.  (My older dd would still go.)  But we can't eliminate all exposure.  We do what we can.  That includes vaccines for the whole family. 

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#43 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 05:25 PM
 
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As I have said before, I would regret putting you on ignore, even though you and I disagree on practically everything.

 

My children are every bit as delightful as yours, despite their excema, allergic rhinitis, asthma, and less-occasional-than-I-would-like-to-admit consumption of processed crap.  I'm pretty sure that's because of a fortuitous combination of luck and genetics.  And that is the full extent to which I am willing to allow my children to be involved in this or any other conversation about vaccination on MDC.  If I feel the need, I will bring them up.  Please stop talking about them now. 

 

Should you ever come across a scientific study that disproves germ theory, please do share. 

 

I thought I was talking about my children not yours. I do not need to disprove the germ theory, it is a belief that has never been proved. 

 

ETA: this is now OT, so I will no longer continue this "conversation".


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#44 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 05:40 PM
 
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Are we playing "whose children are better" now?  Because I really don't see that as relevant to the OP.  There are great kids on both sides of the debate.

I don't think anyone is playing "whose children are better."

I think the relevance of ma2two's comment is that, given the genetics in her family, she did not do MMR and believes that that is one of the reason her children are so healthy today.  The OP's question is "would you do MMR?"

 

Apparently, it makes you furious when people discount complications of diseases due to underlying disorders, yet you are completely discounting someone who was aware of an underlying genetic predisposition to vaccine reaction and wisely chose to avoid such a reaction by avoiding the vaccines that would have triggered it.

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#45 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 05:44 PM
 
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I don't think anyone is playing "whose children are better."

I think the relevance of ma2two's comment is that, given the genetics in her family, she did not do MMR and believes that that is one of the reason her children are so healthy today.  The OP's question is "would you do MMR?"

 

Apparently, it makes you furious when people discount complications of diseases due to underlying disorders, yet you are completely discounting someone who was aware of an underlying genetic predisposition to vaccine reaction and wisely chose to avoid such a reaction by avoiding the vaccines that would have triggered it.

Just to be clear, (not sure if it's relevant) I chose to never vaccinate my kids before I knew about any genetic predisposition to possible vaccine reactions. I just feel incredibly lucky, because there was no reason for me to have doubts about vaccines at the time. I just started researching for a kind of random reason.

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I don't think anyone is playing "whose children are better."

I think the relevance of ma2two's comment is that, given the genetics in her family, she did not do MMR and believes that that is one of the reason her children are so healthy today.  The OP's question is "would you do MMR?"

 

Apparently, it makes you furious when people discount complications of diseases due to underlying disorders, yet you are completely discounting someone who was aware of an underlying genetic predisposition to vaccine reaction and wisely chose to avoid such a reaction by avoiding the vaccines that would have triggered it.

 

 

Taximom, I explained my reasons for taking underlying conditions seriously and not discounting the severity of a disease just because it once appeared on the Flintstones.  I have no idea what you're talking about. 

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#47 of 59 Old 07-02-2012, 10:25 AM
 
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The vast majority of people with measles do not need to be hospitalized, there is no conventional medical treatment for it. What kind of disease are you imagining measles is? Since the vaccine was introduced, it has not changed into some new kind of super killer virus, it is just the same disease it was 40 years ago and the vast numbers who got sailed through it. Now given the fact that a great number of people in the US are now immune compromised from vaccines, environmental pollutants, and malnourished from processed foods, and consume vast amounts of food additives, and frankenfoods like GMOs and mercury laden HFCS, then it is possible they wouldn't fare as well and children of the previous generation who were less health compromised.

 

Is this your hypothesis or has this been documented somewhere?  My unvaccinated nephew contracted measles a couple of years ago and is now deaf as a result.  He (and his sister) have since been fully vaccinated, but they were both breastfed until 2yrs+, and eat only organic and unprocessed food.  To suggest that those that don't "sail through it" may have brought it upon themselves because of diet is insulting and almost certainly unsubstantiated.  Serious measles-related complications were seen 40 years ago too, when people were allegedly "less health compromised".

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http://www.nvic.org/vaccines-and-diseases/MMR.aspx

 

"Historically, the majority of children in technologically advanced countries recovered from measles without major complications. However, measles in teenagers and adults or in very young infants can be much more severe with serious complications and increased mortality. "

 

"Most cases of measles are mild and symptoms begin with a light, hacking cough, low fever, runny eyes and nose and general signs of a cold. For four or five days before the outbreak of measles spots, the cough can become more severe and hacking with swelling and redness of the eyes and sensitivity to light. Fevers can be high (104-105 F.). The symptoms of high fever and cold do not respond to antibiotics, aspirin or cough medicine."

 

http://www.freemd.com/measles/overview.htm

"In most cases, symptoms of measles last for 10 to 14 days, and then resolve without treatment."

 

 

 

 

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The MMR can cause deafness, just like measles can:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1029435/

 

Reports of sensorineural deafness after measles, mumps, and rubella immunisation.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1960595

 

[Bilateral acute profound deafness after MMR vaccination--report of a case].

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3227284

 

Unilateral total deafness as a complication of the measles-mumps-rubella vaccination.

 

 

 

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#50 of 59 Old 07-02-2012, 02:25 PM
 
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The MMR can cause deafness, just like measles can:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1029435/

 

Reports of sensorineural deafness after measles, mumps, and rubella immunisation.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1960595

 

[Bilateral acute profound deafness after MMR vaccination--report of a case].

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3227284

 

Unilateral total deafness as a complication of the measles-mumps-rubella vaccination.

 

 

 

 

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http://www.nvic.org/vaccines-and-diseases/MMR.aspx

 

"Historically, the majority of children in technologically advanced countries recovered from measles without major complications. However, measles in teenagers and adults or in very young infants can be much more severe with serious complications and increased mortality. "

 

"Most cases of measles are mild and symptoms begin with a light, hacking cough, low fever, runny eyes and nose and general signs of a cold. For four or five days before the outbreak of measles spots, the cough can become more severe and hacking with swelling and redness of the eyes and sensitivity to light. Fevers can be high (104-105 F.). The symptoms of high fever and cold do not respond to antibiotics, aspirin or cough medicine."

 

http://www.freemd.com/measles/overview.htm

"In most cases, symptoms of measles last for 10 to 14 days, and then resolve without treatment."

 

 

My point wasn't that many people don't survive the measles, but in response to your assertion that measles-related complications are due to poor diet. 

 

The papers you cite (that I can read...one is in Japanese) indicate that deafness was seen in 6 of 6 million cases, and that the MMR vaccine was only one potential cause.  Further, the authors state "The incidence of sudden hearing loss in adulthood is 5-20 per 100 000 person years and it is bilateral in 2% of cases.  If these figures applied to children, then more than six cases should have been reported, simply by chance, within a year of MMR immunisation."

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#51 of 59 Old 07-02-2012, 06:13 PM
 
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My point wasn't that many people don't survive the measles, but in response to your assertion that measles-related complications are due to poor diet. 

 

 

Where on earth did you think I made such an assertion?

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#52 of 59 Old 07-02-2012, 06:19 PM
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It's Mirzam's assertion.

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#53 of 59 Old 07-02-2012, 09:20 PM
 
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It's Mirzam's assertion.

That is totally twisting what I said. I stated malnutrition (which in the western world, can be the result of a diet of dead, processed foods) has an effect on how a person handles measles. I would also say that giving a child with measles antipyretics and antibiotics is also asking for trouble. Stik, I very clearly stated, when you "accused" me that I do not believe diet causes illness. 


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#54 of 59 Old 07-02-2012, 09:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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OP here wave.gif

 

I'm worried about measles,

 

I wasn't worried about mumps because I was under the impression that is would only possible cause sterility in adults, but my doctor said that wasn't true.

 

My ped is generally really awesome about vaccines, he doesn't believe in giving more than one at a time, ever if sick, gives shots in the tush instead of leg, and has only recommended, polio, DTaP and MMR for my kids. I want to trust his judgment, but MMR kinda scares me. Its the one most of the parents I worked with who had kids with autism blamed as a key moment. 

 

I don't ever go to Europe. I wish the single vax was still available.

 

I wanted to wait longer, but MMR was one shot I've always thought we'd do eventually.
 

I'm....argg not much closer to a decision and a little more worried both way now.uhoh3.gif


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#55 of 59 Old 07-03-2012, 05:15 AM
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That is totally twisting what I said. I stated malnutrition (which in the western world, can be the result of a diet of dead, processed foods) has an effect on how a person handles measles. I would also say that giving a child with measles antipyretics and antibiotics is also asking for trouble. Stik, I very clearly stated, when you "accused" me that I do not believe diet causes illness. 

Perhaps I should have been more clear.

What I meant was, IAmAMama! Was talking about one of your posts, which she quoted in post 47, in re diet as a cause of complications of measles.
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#56 of 59 Old 07-03-2012, 05:38 AM
 
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OP here wave.gif

 

I'm worried about measles,

 

I wasn't worried about mumps because I was under the impression that is would only possible cause sterility in adults, but my doctor said that wasn't true.

 

My ped is generally really awesome about vaccines, he doesn't believe in giving more than one at a time, ever if sick, gives shots in the tush instead of leg, and has only recommended, polio, DTaP and MMR for my kids. I want to trust his judgment, but MMR kinda scares me. Its the one most of the parents I worked with who had kids with autism blamed as a key moment. 

 

I don't ever go to Europe. I wish the single vax was still available.

 

I wanted to wait longer, but MMR was one shot I've always thought we'd do eventually.
 

I'm....argg not much closer to a decision and a little more worried both way now.uhoh3.gif

Why don't you wait then? Most people who develop autism do not do so after age 4 or so.  There is little harm in waiting unless there is a measles outbreak in your area - and that should be pretty easy to confirm with the help of goggle (try CDC)  You could also call the health department in your area for stats. 

 

If there is a measles outbreak in your area, and you are worried about autism - I would take a close look at the family tree, other risk factors for autism, and weigh the risks of measles in your child versus what you think the risks are of acquiring autism.  If you do decide to vaccinate, I would repost asking for advice.  There might be a brand you can request that has a safer profile (not sure with MMR - but that is the case with other vaccines:  some are better than others).  I also think there are vitamins you can give before vaxxing that may or may not help alleviate risk.  

 

I am particularly in favour of delaying vaccinating when it comes to males.  Autism is much more common in males than females.  

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#57 of 59 Old 07-03-2012, 07:43 AM
 
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However, measles in teenagers and adults or in very young infants can be much more severe with serious complications and increased mortality

And here's one of the best arguments in favor of vaccinating when you live in a place where measles is not endemic. Babies and toddlers do eventually become teens and adults.

But, since we have not had outbreaks in our area and since we rarely travel and have never traveled with the kids internationally, I felt it was reasonable to delay until age 6. It truly has nothing to do with Wakefield but I do have concerns re the *possible*, but relatvely unconvincing, anecdotal evidence of some developmental regression after MMR in early toddlerhood. Having a dev delayed child....it was more anxiety than I could take. But she did get it last yr and did fine, and dd2 will also either by age 5 or before that if there is a local outbreak or we have occasion to travel overseas. I feel very confident that the risk of harm from measles, even for perfectly healthy children, is much higher than from MMR.

DD1 7/13/05 DD2 9/20/10
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#58 of 59 Old 07-09-2012, 09:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dakotablue View Post gives shots in the tush instead of leg
 
The front thigh is actually recommended over the glutes (butt) as a site for vaccinations in small children, because of the risk of nerve damage in the gluteal area.
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#59 of 59 Old 07-10-2012, 08:18 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Yes, but that would be for inexperienced people, aka the shift from doctors giving vaccines to nurses giving vaccines. He (my doctor) has been giving vaccines for over 30 years and does not allow anyone else in his office to do it. I trust his experience. He explained the tush is a better place because of the size of the muscle, but only if you are trained to do it that way.

 

Kinda like how version for breech babies is becoming a lost art. Most OBs jump to c-section.

 ETA: I assume he does the same no matter what age, but mine didn't start until 2 years.


biggrinbounce.gifDS 10/09  sleepytime.gifDS 2/17/11 stork-suprise.gif Blessing #3 sometime 2/13

 

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