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#1 of 64 Old 07-30-2012, 09:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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My youngest DD is 11mo, and we have done no vaccinations as of yet.  DH is concerned about the whooping cough cases (as am I) and I'm wondering if anyone can point me to good resources on prevention and treatment if DD were to contract the disease. 

 

Also, do you know, is it possible to separate the Diptheria and Tetanus from the shot? 

 

Thanks.

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#2 of 64 Old 07-31-2012, 05:00 AM
 
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no it cannot be separated, and most of the cases of WC are in vaccinated people. 

http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/6/5/00-0512_article.htm

 

 

Why Whooping Cough Vaccine Does Not Work As Advertised

http://www.everydayhealth.com/cold-and-flu/0719/whooping-cough-epidemic-increases-cases-by-tenfold.aspx?xid=aol_eh-news_19_20120716_&aolcat=HLT&icid=maing-grid7

 
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#3 of 64 Old 08-19-2012, 02:59 AM
 
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Here is a good article that explains why the increase in Whooping Cough:
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/08/pertussis-vax-effectiveness/

Essentially it boils down to a newer safer vaccine that has less long-term effectiveness combined with more parents opting out of vaccinations.
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#4 of 64 Old 08-22-2012, 07:26 PM
 
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Additionally, even the medical community authorities admit there is a natural upswing in WC every 4-5 years, we are simply in an upswing year.
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#5 of 64 Old 08-22-2012, 07:51 PM
 
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From someone that had wc when my youngest child was a baby, I am thankful my children were vaccinated, I spent 4 days in the hospital and was in a lot of pain, but my children were not.

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#6 of 64 Old 08-22-2012, 08:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by marsupial-mom View Post

Here is a good article that explains why the increase in Whooping Cough:
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/08/pertussis-vax-effectiveness/

Essentially it boils down to a newer safer vaccine that has less long-term effectiveness combined with more parents opting out of vaccinations.

This information is not correct, as the CDC has admitted, non vaxers have little to do with the increase in whooping cough. To understand why the pertussis vaccine, doesn't matter if it is the old whole cell version or the 'safer' DTaP, doesn't work I recommend reading this article, it explains exactly what is wrong with the vaccine.

 

Whooping cough and chameleons


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#7 of 64 Old 08-22-2012, 09:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by marsupial-mom View Post

Here is a good article that explains why the increase in Whooping Cough:
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/08/pertussis-vax-effectiveness/
Essentially it boils down to a newer safer vaccine that has less long-term effectiveness combined with more parents opting out of vaccinations.

 

A different interpretation - this one from CDC, from a press briefing transcipt:

 

ELIZABETH WEISE: Hi, thanks for taking my question. You say the rates of illness are going up.  You say they are cyclical.  Is this part of the cycle or is it related to efforts by some to encourage people not to be vaccinated? 

ANNE SCHUCHAT: Yes, thank you for that question.  We think there are many things going on.  Pertussis is a cyclical disease and the vaccines are not perfect.  So even with increasing vaccination coverage, we expect to still have cycles.  We think there are some unusual epidemiologic features that have caused us to launch a more detailed investigation in Washington State.  Waning of immunity or a weakening of the time or waning of protection over time may be part of the story that we're seeing.  On the other hand, we know that people who are not vaccinated have about an eight times higher risk of disease than people who are vaccinated.  We know there are places around the country where there are large numbers of people who aren't vaccinated.  However, we don't think those exemptors are driving this current wave.  We think it is a bad thing that people aren't getting vaccinated or exempting, but we cannot blame this wave on that phenomenon.  Next question.

 

The full article is here:

Press Briefing Transcript
Pertussis Epidemic in Washington State- 2012 Telebriefing
Thursday July 19, 2012, Noon ET
http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2012/t0719_pertussis_epidemic.html


Pro rights (vaxes).
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#8 of 64 Old 08-24-2012, 09:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mamalexy View Post

My youngest DD is 11mo, and we have done no vaccinations as of yet.  DH is concerned about the whooping cough cases (as am I) and I'm wondering if anyone can point me to good resources on prevention and treatment if DD were to contract the disease. 

 

Also, do you know, is it possible to separate the Diptheria and Tetanus from the shot? 

 

Thanks.

 

Sodium Ascorbate is very effective for treating WC

 

http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2011/12/20/special-report-the-vitamin-c-treatment-of-whooping-cough-suzanne-humphries-md/

 

The best prevention for any illness is strengthening one's immune system IMO. Probiotics, Aquedaute vitamin d levels, Vitamin C, a healthy diet that is low in sugar and artificial crap and plenty of rest.


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#9 of 64 Old 08-24-2012, 04:52 PM
 
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An excellent article by Suzanne Humphries MD:

 

Treating Infants With Whooping Cough

 

 

 

 

Quote:

The number one piece of equipment, a lazyboy type rocking chair. The breastfeeding mother needs to be on high doses vitamin C, a great diet, beetroot and carrot juicing etc.

It is very important to keep the babies mucus thin with VITAMIN C and N-acetyl cysteine if necessary. It is important to keep the baby upright, chest supported and leaning slightly forward to cough.

The mother must remain very well hydrated. Keep the baby’s vitamin C level high. Studies have shown through examination of the urine, that there are varying degrees of hypovitaminosis-C in whooping cough. Saturation of whooping cough patients with ascorbic acid decreases markedly the intensity, number and duration of the characteristic symptoms.(Ormerod 1937) Every published study from the past used doses that were far too low to significantly help the cough, yet most of them still revealed a difference in cough intensity and duration.
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#10 of 64 Old 08-25-2012, 10:30 AM
 
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The whooping cough vaccine is less effective than other vaccines, but avacinated child is still 9-23 times less likely to contract whooping cough than an unvaccinated one. Whooping cough is a serious disease. Infants under one who contract the disease are hospitalized 50% of the time. 1 in 300 get encephalopathy and 1 in 100 die. This is leaving out other complications like pneumonia, convulsions, and apnea.
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#11 of 64 Old 08-25-2012, 12:31 PM
 
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The whooping cough vaccine is less effective than other vaccines, but avacinated child is still 9-23 times less likely to contract whooping cough than an unvaccinated one.
According to this study out of Germany, it looks like pertussis is 6 or 7  times more common in the unvaxxed.  Look at the second graph 
Whooping cough is a serious disease. Infants under one who contract the disease are hospitalized 50% of the time. 1 in 300 get encephalopathy and 1 in 100 die. This is leaving out other complications like pneumonia, convulsions, and apnea.

Whooping cough is most dangerous for those under 3 months - which is well before they are fully immunised for pertussis.

 

Some people try to argue low vaccination rate is part of the reason for the high rate of pertussis in infants.  

 

I don't entirely think that is the case.  Non-vaxxers don't vaccinate - and yet most other VPDs  are not on the rise.  Parents who do not vaccinate their children are a fairly small percentage of the population.  Childhood vaccination rates are high and stable

 

If one wants to tackle non-vaxxers (not literally, I hope duck.gif) I would start with adults, most of whom are NOT up to date with their booster.  It is questionable whether this would be effective, however.  Australia has abandoned free Whooping cough shots, given they do not think boosters will help lower the amount of babies getting pertussis.   

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/states-ending-free-parent-whooping-vaccine/story-e6frfku0-1226350174856

 

What I have been reading lately, and the stats I have seen support it, is that DTaP is simply not a good enough vaccine.  DTP was more effective, but was more reactive.   Even the CDC admits it  http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6128a1.htm

 

 

"Pertussis is endemic in the United States. Although cyclical in nature, a gradual and sustained increase has been observed in the United States after reaching historic lows in the 1970s...

Acellular and whole-cell vaccines both have high efficacy during the first 2 years after vaccination, but recent changes in the epidemiology of pertussis in the United States strongly suggest diminished duration of protection afforded by childhood acellular vaccine (DTaP) compared with that of diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and whole-cell pertussis (DTwP) vaccine….."

 

(fwiw - the same CDC article suggested unvaxxed children are 8 times more likely to get pertussis.  So, I am getting 6-8 percent, not sure where you are getting 9-23 from, Rachel).  

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#12 of 64 Old 08-27-2012, 12:23 AM
 
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I have been reading lots of posts about the futileness of antibiotics, vitamin C therapy instead of going to the hospital on this site, even when the mother was talking about a baby that was coughing and having apnea which scared the hell out of me. Thankgod she did go but then afterwards posts went on and on about the treatment and the dangers of antibiotics etc. So I just want to put some info out there. I am a Mothercraft Nurse of 25 years but also a nursing student. I am currently doing a paper on whooping cough so I have had to do allot of research. 

 

In recent years it has been realised that the whooping cough vaccine only gives immunity for 4 or 5 years, getting whooping cough also does not give life long immunity. Whooping cough was thought of as a children's disease however in recent years it has also been recognised that adults do get whooping cough but it may present as a perisitant cough and not diagnosed. As previously mentioned vaccination lasts about 4 or 5 years therefore adults have become reservoirs for whooping cough. Presently the world seems to currently be experiencing a epidemic. I live in Australia and our government is giving free vaccinations to parents and grandparents of newborns because of the recognition that adults can get it and pass it on. People who have been vaccinated may still get the disease but the infection is less severe and does not spread as widely among immunised populations. The new whooping cough vaccines are no longer associated with the high fevers of the previous vaccines. 

 

There is currently no cure for whooping cough. Only prevention or supportive measures. The Centre for Disease Control and the World Health Organisation review all the epidemiology figures around the world and gather all the research. They review the research for it's quality and accuracy of results and guidelines are based on those. The current guidelines for treatment are giving antibiotics in the first couple of weeks before the coughing starts will reduce the length and severity of the disease and remove the bacteria from the airways. Whooping cough is infectious from onset of symptoms which in the first 2 weeks is like a common cold, until 3 weeks after the paroxsymal cough starts. Giving antibiotics reduces infection to 5 days. The treatment with antibiotics is more concerned about preventing the spead of the disease than treating the individual as it will not cure it. This disease is highly infectious with a stike rate of 80% so all close contacts are given a prophylactic dose of antibiotics to stop the infant down the road getting it and giving it to the next and so on.

 

Supportive treatment includes humidified oxygen. The coughing paroxsymals occur on the out breath and can go on for so long and be so violent that an infants brain can be starved of oxygen. The whoop is made from the gasp in. Som babies just get apneoa. This can last for 6 weeks. The baby becomes to tired to feed and can become dehyrdrated so may need feeding via a nasal gastric tube. If breastfeeding this will be expressed breastmilk. The mucous is extremely thick so the airway may need suctioning. Parents will recieve support whilst their child is sick as this is a horribe horrible thing to watch your child go through. That is about all that can be done 50% of babies under 6 months will need this intervention.

 

All of this information is based on evidence based research. When a large double blind randomised study is done which concludes that Vitamin C cures whooping cough then it will be used as a treatment because you can't just treat our children with anything with out evidence that is works or evidence of the side effects so risks analysis can also be done.  Like wise if all the health organisations around the world concluded that vaccination didn't have some benefit in stopping the spread of disease then they would stop. They cost governments millions.

 

So I urge you to consider vaccination because whooping cough is very real. There is no cure and there is no treatment. I will protect your children and you can protect mine. It is all we have got. Vaccination is important for adults and older children as well. If your child is not immunised especially really young stay away from people with colds and coughs.

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#13 of 64 Old 08-27-2012, 04:08 AM
 
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Well here in the USA, the CDC just came out saying the vaccine is NOT protecting and may serve as a silent reservoir for infection, making passing it to vulnerable babies even more likely.  And Australia stopped the 'cocooning' vaccination because it wasn't doing any good..http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/states-ending-free-parent-whooping-vaccine/story-e6frfku0-1226350174856

 

Quote:
PARENTS across Australia will no longer receive free whooping cough vaccinations because it is not effective in protecting newborns from the potentially deadly illness, a parliamentary committee has heard.

 


Read more: http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/states-ending-free-parent-whooping-vaccine/story-e6frfku0-1226350174856#ixzz24kAeLMdK

 

and, about the vaccine, 

 

http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/6/5/00-0512_article.htm

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oxygen View Post

I have been reading lots of posts about the futileness of antibiotics, vitamin C therapy instead of going to the hospital on this site, even when the mother was talking about a baby that was coughing and having apnea which scared the hell out of me. Thankgod she did go but then afterwards posts went on and on about the treatment and the dangers of antibiotics etc. So I just want to put some info out there. I am a Mothercraft Nurse of 25 years but also a nursing student. I am currently doing a paper on whooping cough so I have had to do allot of research. 

 

In recent years it has been realised that the whooping cough vaccine only gives immunity for 4 or 5 years, getting whooping cough also does not give life long immunity. Whooping cough was thought of as a children's disease however in recent years it has also been recognised that adults do get whooping cough but it may present as a perisitant cough and not diagnosed. As previously mentioned vaccination lasts about 4 or 5 years therefore adults have become reservoirs for whooping cough. Presently the world seems to currently be experiencing a epidemic. I live in Australia and our government is giving free vaccinations to parents and grandparents of newborns because of the recognition that adults can get it and pass it on. People who have been vaccinated may still get the disease but the infection is less severe and does not spread as widely among immunised populations. The new whooping cough vaccines are no longer associated with the high fevers of the previous vaccines. 

 

There is currently no cure for whooping cough. Only prevention or supportive measures. The Centre for Disease Control and the World Health Organisation review all the epidemiology figures around the world and gather all the research. They review the research for it's quality and accuracy of results and guidelines are based on those. The current guidelines for treatment are giving antibiotics in the first couple of weeks before the coughing starts will reduce the length and severity of the disease and remove the bacteria from the airways. Whooping cough is infectious from onset of symptoms which in the first 2 weeks is like a common cold, until 3 weeks after the paroxsymal cough starts. Giving antibiotics reduces infection to 5 days. The treatment with antibiotics is more concerned about preventing the spead of the disease than treating the individual as it will not cure it. This disease is highly infectious with a stike rate of 80% so all close contacts are given a prophylactic dose of antibiotics to stop the infant down the road getting it and giving it to the next and so on.

 

Supportive treatment includes humidified oxygen. The coughing paroxsymals occur on the out breath and can go on for so long and be so violent that an infants brain can be starved of oxygen. The whoop is made from the gasp in. Som babies just get apneoa. This can last for 6 weeks. The baby becomes to tired to feed and can become dehyrdrated so may need feeding via a nasal gastric tube. If breastfeeding this will be expressed breastmilk. The mucous is extremely thick so the airway may need suctioning. Parents will recieve support whilst their child is sick as this is a horribe horrible thing to watch your child go through. That is about all that can be done 50% of babies under 6 months will need this intervention.

 

All of this information is based on evidence based research. When a large double blind randomised study is done which concludes that Vitamin C cures whooping cough then it will be used as a treatment because you can't just treat our children with anything with out evidence that is works or evidence of the side effects so risks analysis can also be done.  Like wise if all the health organisations around the world concluded that vaccination didn't have some benefit in stopping the spread of disease then they would stop. They cost governments millions.

 

So I urge you to consider vaccination because whooping cough is very real. There is no cure and there is no treatment. I will protect your children and you can protect mine. It is all we have got. Vaccination is important for adults and older children as well. If your child is not immunised especially really young stay away from people with colds and coughs.

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#14 of 64 Old 08-27-2012, 06:47 AM
 
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The vaccination in Australia was never intended to go forever. I new that would be thown at me. It was a trial to see if it would and it didn't. The point I was making is that we are in the middle of an epidemic to the point that these measures are being tried unfortunately infants aren't protected for 6 months. The vaccine we have at the moment is less effective but more people are having it versus the old one which was more affective but people didn't like there babies getting a fever and less people immunised.

 

This is a good balanced article.

http://www.abc.net.au/health/thepulse/stories/2012/08/14/3567495.htm

I guess the point I really want to make is there is no known cure vaccination has been proven to have effect. It is all we have.

That Vitamin C study was done in 1937. The side effect of megadosing on vitamin C is diahorrea and added complications babies afflicted with whooping cough don't need.

I read the article from Suzzanne Humphries today on treating whooping cough. She also promotes Vitamin C staying at home and avoiding the medical profession who are deemed incompetent. I include an excerpt below.

 

""A breastfeed will trigger a coughing spell with a baby at the coughing stage, so the mother should not feed the baby without someone else on hand. After the baby latches, and the milk flows, the baby may well unlatch and start coughing. The mother needs to immediately hand the baby off to someone else who can manage the coughing. The mother then has to shut down her milk flow – fold nipple over and press in for a few second. After the person managing the baby has let the gobs of mucus come out, and the baby has calmed down, latch the baby again, and this time, that feed will stay down".

Suzzanne Humphries

 

All I can say about this is what do you do if your baby becomes to tired to feed which they often do.

Try alternative medication if you have to but know when to cut your loses and run to the hospital for oxygen but please vaccinate so my children and my friends children are less likely to get it. I have vaccinated myself and so should we all.

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#15 of 64 Old 08-27-2012, 11:06 AM
 
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The vaccination in Australia was never intended to go forever. I new that would be thown at me. It was a trial to see if it would and it didn't. The point I was making is that we are in the middle of an epidemic to the point that these measures are being tried unfortunately infants aren't protected for 6 months. The vaccine we have at the moment is less effective but more people are having it versus the old one which was more affective but people didn't like there babies getting a fever and less people immunised.

 

This is a good balanced article.

http://www.abc.net.au/health/thepulse/stories/2012/08/14/3567495.htm

I guess the point I really want to make is there is no known cure vaccination has been proven to have effect. It is all we have.

That Vitamin C study was done in 1937. The side effect of megadosing on vitamin C is diahorrea and added complications babies afflicted with whooping cough don't need.

I read the article from Suzzanne Humphries today on treating whooping cough. She also promotes Vitamin C staying at home and avoiding the medical profession who are deemed incompetent. I include an excerpt below.

 

""A breastfeed will trigger a coughing spell with a baby at the coughing stage, so the mother should not feed the baby without someone else on hand. After the baby latches, and the milk flows, the baby may well unlatch and start coughing. The mother needs to immediately hand the baby off to someone else who can manage the coughing. The mother then has to shut down her milk flow – fold nipple over and press in for a few second. After the person managing the baby has let the gobs of mucus come out, and the baby has calmed down, latch the baby again, and this time, that feed will stay down".

Suzzanne Humphries

 

All I can say about this is what do you do if your baby becomes to tired to feed which they often do.

Try alternative medication if you have to but know when to cut your loses and run to the hospital for oxygen but please vaccinate so my children and my friends children are less likely to get it. I have vaccinated myself and so should we all.

 

eyesroll.gif.......Im sorry but Im really tired of posters coming on to these forums (with no previous posting history) and "urging" me to vaccinate myself and my children.


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#16 of 64 Old 08-27-2012, 02:38 PM
 
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Sorry, i tried that with my oldest, and he had such a bad reaction  i will NEVER let my children receive another vaccine.  EVER.   and if you read the science behind the DTaP, you'll see that vaccinated people ARE spreading it, even to those who ARE vaxed.  Another epic fail as far as vaccines go, imo...

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 but please vaccinate so my children and my friends children are less likely to get it. I have vaccinated myself and so should we all.
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#17 of 64 Old 08-27-2012, 05:26 PM
 
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Sorry, i tried that with my oldest, and he had such a bad reaction  i will NEVER let my children receive another vaccine.  EVER.   and if you read the science behind the DTaP, you'll see that vaccinated people ARE spreading it, even to those who ARE vaxed.  Another epic fail as far as vaccines go, imo...

 

I agree - my son was sick for 8 months after his 5th DTaP shot and still hasn't fully recovered, so no, we won't be getting the shot.

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#18 of 64 Old 08-27-2012, 06:49 PM
 
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What in the world is with that shutting off the milk flow nonsense?
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#19 of 64 Old 08-27-2012, 07:38 PM
 
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I know I had a laugh at all of her suggestions.  In response to the vaccination topic for a child to be sick for 5 months after a DTPa is also the most rediculous thing I have heard. The vaccines are either live organisms less virulent but will give immunity or just dead cells that the body will form antibodies too. If a child gets that sick to those imagine what their immune systems would do if they caught the real thing. I would think vaccination would be more inportant.

It makes our immune systems sound so inempt. When really if you could see the amount of micro organisms that live on us and around us that could cause us disease but doesn't because of our defenses you would be amazed.

 

I got all my children vaccinated even with the old one. I figured that my child getting a fever for a couple of days was a good trade off as opposed to getting the actual diseases. Unfortunately when my kids were little they didn't have the chicken pox vaccination so that is one hell we had to go through. My daughter got it really bad and was covered inside and out. She has a lot of scars now as well. I remember thinking at the time laying next to her for the second night with no sleep that if this had made someone sterile there would be a vaccination for it. She smelt like rotting flesh. I had measles mumps and chickenpox as a child.. I was really really sick with the measles. Thank god at least measles and mumps are not that common any more due to vaccination in Australia and my kids didn't have to go through those.

 

Anyway I will leave you in peace we are all entitiled to our opinions. Back to my nursing assignment.

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I am sorry I miss read that. Make that 8 months not 5.

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I am sorry I miss read that. Make that 8 months not 5.

 

Maybe it is ridiculous (not rEdiculous), but that was what we experienced, and my son's pediatrician agreed that it was from the vaccine reaction.  He was there, you were not.  I never said he had pertussis after the vaccine.  I said he was sick.  In our case, pertussis would have been far preferable to the 8 months of hell my son went through.

 

People have prolonged and often permanent damage from vaccines all the time, and that information is in the vaccine information sheets.  I'm not sure why that's hard to understand.

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#22 of 64 Old 08-27-2012, 08:24 PM
 
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Don't nursing schools teach that vaccines CAN cause serious, lifelong illnesses?

Those side effects are listed on the package insert. Aren't health professionals required to read them before administering the vaccine?

Even the vaccine manufacturers admit that some people end up with lupus, arthritis, Guillaine-Barre syndrome, seizure disorders, and other lifelong autoimmune disorders, even death, as a direct result of vaccination.
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#23 of 64 Old 08-28-2012, 03:46 AM
 
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Oxygen-

Welcome to MDC.  Please take the time to read the User Agreement

 

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Mothering.com members are required to treat one other with respect and courtesy at all times.

Calling someone's experieneces ridiculous is not respectful.  Please edit your post to reflect our UA.

 

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Pointing out someone's spelling mistakes is taking personal issue with someone.  Please keep things about the post, not the poster, and edit that part out of your post. 

 

Taxi-

Please edit out the quote, since it is going to be edited and the comment about Oxygen's education. 

 

Thank you! 


 
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#24 of 64 Old 08-28-2012, 06:42 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

What in the world is with that shutting off the milk flow nonsense?

 Its actually common sense. Eating and drinking can trigger coughing episodes, which obviously can be a problem for a nursing infant.


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#25 of 64 Old 08-28-2012, 06:44 AM
 
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Sure, that part I get. It's the folding the nipple up thing that I think is weird.
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#26 of 64 Old 08-28-2012, 06:47 AM
 
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It does no one any good to deny that vaccines can cause long term harm or permanent injury in some cases. The pertinent issue is how common those cases are an what the risks are from the corresponding diseases.

Additionally, if these complications (from disease or vaccine) happened to your child or a child youre close to I expect it doesn't matter much how common it is in the grand scheme, in your eyes it was obviously too common. It's perfectly normal and probably unavoidable for out perceptions to be colored either way by our own experiences.
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#27 of 64 Old 08-28-2012, 06:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

 

Some people try to argue low vaccination rate is part of the reason for the high rate of pertussis in infants.  

 

I don't entirely think that is the case.  Non-vaxxers don't vaccinate - and yet most other VPDs  are not on the rise.

 

That does not logically follow. Just because we aren't seeing an increase in the spread of all vaccine-preventable diseases does not mean that those who are opting out of vaccines are not increasing the spread of some vaccine-preventable diseases.

 

Here are some factors that influence the spread of disease:

- the method of transmission (example, is it air-borne or not)

- hygeine

- effectiveness of the vaccine, if there is one

- rates of vaccination

- how quickly people seek medical treatment when sick

- how likely someone is to isolate themselves/ family members when sick

- and more (such as the overall health of a group of people, genetic factors, etc)

 

One needs to consider all the factors, and how they affect each other, before determining the primary cause(s) of an outbreak. Even if one factor isn't determined to be the primary cause, we shouldn't entirely rule it out as a contributing cause.

 

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Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

 vaccines CAN cause serious, lifelong illnesses

Yes, and in rare cases seat belts can cause deaths. Same with flotation devices. Should we stop using life jackets on our children because in some rare instances they are worse than if the child didn't wear one?

 

The fact that there are sometimes negative consequences to products that are generally life-saving is not a good reason to abstain from said product. Only when it's probable that a negative consequence will occur does it make sense to avoid the product.

 

The trick is determining the probability of positive or negative outcomes and then weighing those chances accordingly. This requires a type of mathmatical thinking that is, unfortunately, rather counter-intuitive for most people.

 

 

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Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

It does no one any good to deny that vaccines can cause long term harm or permanent injury in some cases. The pertinent issue is how common those cases are an what the risks are from the corresponding diseases.
Additionally, if these complications (from disease or vaccine) happened to your child or a child youre close to I expect it doesn't matter much how common it is in the grand scheme, in your eyes it was obviously too common. It's perfectly normal and probably unavoidable for out perceptions to be colored either way by our own experiences.

Agreed.

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#28 of 64 Old 08-28-2012, 06:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

Sure, that part I get. It's the folding the nipple up thing that I think is weird.

 

As a mom who struggles with overactive letdown  - folding your nipple or pinching it if you preefer that term (same thing) is quite effective at slowing the flow. Never thought of it as weird but ok. One can also put a towel over it and wait until it calms down if thats less weird. Getting bogged down in the terminology obscures the point of the advice which is to slow the flow so as not to trigger a coughing episode.

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If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#29 of 64 Old 08-28-2012, 06:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marsupial-mom View Post

 

That does not logically follow. Just because we aren't seeing an increase in the spread of all vaccine-preventable diseases does not mean that those who are opting out of vaccines are not increasing the spread of some vaccine-preventable diseases.

 

Here are some factors that influence the spread of disease:

- the method of transmission (example, is it air-borne or not)

- hygeine

- effectiveness of the vaccine, if there is one

- rates of vaccination

- how quickly people seek medical treatment when sick

- how likely someone is to isolate themselves/ family members when sick

- and more (such as the overall health of a group of people, genetic factors, etc)

 

One needs to consider all the factors, and how they affect each other, before determining the primary cause(s) of an outbreak. Even if one factor isn't determined to be the primary cause, we shouldn't entirely rule it out as a contributing cause.

 

Yes, and in rare cases seat belts can cause deaths. Same with flotation devices. Should we stop using life jackets on our children because in some rare instances they are worse than if the child didn't wear one?

 

The fact that there are sometimes negative consequences to products that are generally life-saving is not a good reason to abstain from said product. Only when it's probable that a negative consequence will occur does it make sense to avoid the product.

 

The trick is determining the probability of positive or negative outcomes and then weighing those chances accordingly. This requires a type of mathmatical thinking that is, unfortunately, rather counter-intuitive for most people.

 

 

Agreed.

 

Yes - it also requires the medical community to stop routinely denying that certain negative consequences are a result of vaccination. How can a parent determine that probability accurately when many many medical professionals will not report reactions or even recognize them as such. Denial is so much easier than accountability. All one has to do is look online at the thousands of parents that have had this type of experience with their doctors after their child reacted badly to a vaccine.

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If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#30 of 64 Old 08-28-2012, 08:27 AM
 
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Marnica, not trying to offend. It's sort of a non sequitur, anyway.
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