Newborn vaccines? Eye drops, vitamin K, and Hep B?? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 131 Old 08-13-2012, 12:00 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for the info! Do you know of any cases like that in the US?

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#62 of 131 Old 08-13-2012, 06:44 AM
 
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I think that the reason is that the vaccine is considered to be very safe, and protection is lifelong, so why delay vaccination? It's a bit like wearing your seatbelt every time you drive somewhere. Infants do not have a high risk of contracting hepatitis B until they are teenagers, unless their parents have the disease, however when do you know when they do need it? By giving the shot to infants, they are protected their whole life and that is one less thing to worry about.

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#63 of 131 Old 08-13-2012, 06:51 AM
 
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This case was in India! You can't possibly look at vaccine administration in India, where not everyone has access to electricity and the literacy rate is lower than acceptable, and compare it the US.

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#64 of 131 Old 08-13-2012, 07:01 AM
 
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yes, google 'ian hep b vaccine'.

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#65 of 131 Old 08-13-2012, 09:18 AM
 
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 It's a bit like wearing your seatbelt every time you drive somewhere.


Are you saying the hepatitis B vaccine is as safe as wearing a seatbelt? bigeyes.gif

 

Do you think the risk of child contracting hepatitis B in the U.S. is comparable to the risk of being in a car accident?

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#66 of 131 Old 08-13-2012, 09:29 AM
 
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Are you saying the hepatitis B vaccine is as safe as wearing a seatbelt? bigeyes.gif

 

Do you think the risk of child contracting hepatitis B in the U.S. is comparable to the risk of being in a car accident?

 

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There are no risks to wearing a seatbelt.  There are undeniable risks to any vaccine.

 

It is not at all an appropriate analogy.


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#67 of 131 Old 08-13-2012, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Just to play devils advocate... because I don't really think one way or another yet about vaccines, only that I'm questioning them... but...

 

Wearing a seatbelty actually does have a lot of risks. My husband is a career fireman, and he's seen many many many people get killed BECAUSE of wearing a seatbelt. Soooo, yeah. That's probably an all around bad comparison.


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#68 of 131 Old 08-13-2012, 10:39 AM
 
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Thanks for the info! Do you know of any cases like that in the US?

I know you are having a girl, but I thought I would share this for any future babies or lurkers:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21058170

 

Males newborns vaccinated at birth for Hep B have a 3 fold higher rate of autism than those vaccinated later in life or never vaccinated for Hep B.


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#69 of 131 Old 08-13-2012, 10:48 AM
 
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Unanswered questions about the Hepatitis B vaccine - Part 1

 

 

 

Quote:
[I]f you read transcripts of FDA vaccine safety meetings,  (such as this 2002 meeting) you will soon discover that contrary to the assertions that vaccines are thoroughly tested for safety, the FDA didn't even have suitable animal neonatal models defined in order to do basic research, and still doesn't, 9 years later. 

 

 

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This year, a chinese medical study looked at what happens to gene expression and inflammation markers when you administer Hepatitis B vaccine to mice at birth, and showed that the Hepatitis B vaccine significantly altered liver gene expression, indicative of not just "inflammation", but subtoxic adverse effects from the vaccine including subtle liver injury.

 

 


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I am saying, if I have a car accident, I would prefer to be wearing a seat belt than not.

 

Here is some data about post-marketing surveillance of the hepatitis A and B vaccine, from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11505437 (Van Damme P, Leroux-Roels G, Law B, Diaz-Mitoma F, Desombere I, Collard F, Tornieporth N, Van Herck K. Long-term persistence of antibodies induced by vaccination and safety follow-up, with the first combined vaccine against hepatitis A and B in children and adults. J Med Virol. 2001 Sep;65(1):6-13.)

 

The rate of adverse events is listed as one in x doses.

 

Rate of adverse events
Allergic-type reactions 1:41,055
Fever 1:81,852
Injection site reactions 1:86,763
Pain/abdominal pain 1:90,378
Nausea 1:112,193
Headache 1:120,504
Fatigue 1:156,800
Arthralgia 1:160,672
Paresthesia 1:169,018
Increased hepatic enzymes 1:197,188
Myalgia 1:200,222
In¯uenza-like symptoms 1:206,578
Vomiting 1:216,907
Dizziness 1:220,583
Diarrhea 1:224,387

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#71 of 131 Old 08-13-2012, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I totally understand what you're saying nutritionjulia. Typically the pro's outweigh the cons. Not always, but often. But it's just a chance you're taking, and some aren't willing to take that chance... and I totally understand that as well. Especially if they've had a child who has had an adverse reaction to something already. mothering.com in general seems to be a very non-medicated community (which I love! energy.gif) but it really is a choice... and of course everyone has their own opinions. I just think the more knowledge we have, the better decision we can make for our families. A lot of people are more "go with the flow" and "whatever the Dr. says is right"... but then there are people who are totally the opposite, or who've had a bad experience and choose to go their own route. I feel like I'm very in the middle with that, so that's why I started this discussion!


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#72 of 131 Old 08-13-2012, 12:05 PM
 
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I am saying, if I have a car accident, I would prefer to be wearing a seat belt than not.

 

Here is some data about post-marketing surveillance of the hepatitis A and B vaccine, from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11505437 (Van Damme P, Leroux-Roels G, Law B, Diaz-Mitoma F, Desombere I, Collard F, Tornieporth N, Van Herck K. Long-term persistence of antibodies induced by vaccination and safety follow-up, with the first combined vaccine against hepatitis A and B in children and adults. J Med Virol. 2001 Sep;65(1):6-13.)

 

The rate of adverse events is listed as one in x doses.

 

Rate of adverse events
Allergic-type reactions 1:41,055
Fever 1:81,852
Injection site reactions 1:86,763
Pain/abdominal pain 1:90,378
Nausea 1:112,193
Headache 1:120,504
Fatigue 1:156,800
Arthralgia 1:160,672
Paresthesia 1:169,018
Increased hepatic enzymes 1:197,188
Myalgia 1:200,222
In¯uenza-like symptoms 1:206,578
Vomiting 1:216,907
Dizziness 1:220,583
Diarrhea 1:224,387

 

Many of those are pretty serious adverse events in a newborn (who can't communicate if they have a headache, dizziness, pain, or nausea).  A fever in a newborn results in hospitalization and a lumbar puncture.  Many of those reactions could severely impact feeding, including initiation of breastfeeding, which could have lifelong health ramifications.

 

Is it worth it when the newborn's parents do not have Hep B?

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#73 of 131 Old 08-13-2012, 12:54 PM
 
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I totally understand what you're saying nutritionjulia. Typically the pro's outweigh the cons. Not always, but often. But it's just a chance you're taking, and some aren't willing to take that chance... and I totally understand that as well. Especially if they've had a child who has had an adverse reaction to something already. mothering.com in general seems to be a very non-medicated community (which I love! energy.gif) but it really is a choice... and of course everyone has their own opinions. I just think the more knowledge we have, the better decision we can make for our families. A lot of people are more "go with the flow" and "whatever the Dr. says is right"... but then there are people who are totally the opposite, or who've had a bad experience and choose to go their own route. I feel like I'm very in the middle with that, so that's why I started this discussion!

Well , in my case , I definitely CANNOT say , that I am a " go with the flow " kind of person and I MOST DEFINITELY DO NOT believe , doctor knows best 

Quite contrary !

But I grew up in a missionary family  and spent most part of my childhood and adolescent life in India and Nepal and I can assure everyone , who goes on and on about the " dangers " and risks involved with vaccines , they have ab-so-lu-tely NO idea whatsoever , what havoc " harmless " childhood diseases " can wreak . I guarantee you , that anyone , who has seen some of the things , I have seen , as well as one of my cousins , who works with medecins sans frontieres , you´d be running the doctor´s doors in , begging for vaccines . 

And the argument , that it would take generations for vaccine-preventable illnesses to take hold again is unfortunately not true . It may take a couple of years , if we are lucky , but as we can see in my native Germany , with many adults for example not getting boosters for things like measles or diphteria and people coming from places such as Russia , where there is not widespread vaccination , the numbers of infections are rising rapidly and the fatalities as well !  

So nutricionjulia´s comparison with a seat belt is actually quite good , since wearing one can be dangerous and has risks , BUT if you wear your seatbelt properly , you have done as much as you can to protect yourself , but NOT wearing one is definitely playing russian roulette with your health 


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i'm wondering what electric and being able to read has to do with administering HepB to infants who are malnourished?  Are the people doing the administrating of the vaccines working in the dark and unable to read?  The point is, babies died, not from lack of electricity or being unable to read, they died because their tiny body couldn't handle the poisons injected.  

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This case was in India! You can't possibly look at vaccine administration in India, where not everyone has access to electricity and the literacy rate is lower than acceptable, and compare it the US.

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#75 of 131 Old 08-14-2012, 06:14 AM
 
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i'm wondering what electric and being able to read has to do with administering HepB to infants who are malnourished?  Are the people doing the administrating of the vaccines working in the dark and unable to read?  The point is, babies died, not from lack of electricity or being unable to read, they died because their tiny body couldn't handle the poisons injected.  

But that is exactly the point , here in Europe ( or the US ) , we don´t vac malnourished babies , that many times suffer from parasites and other underlying problems , that can compromise their health . 

and one thing , I can tell you for sure , because I have seen it myself , doctors and nurses there don´t take the time ( or even have the time ) to check kids , if they are healthy enough to receive the shot , like my doctor does every time , BEFORE she vaccinates my kids , they just give it to them .

So , unless we send you in a slum to live there for several years , become malnourished , deliver an ( usually ) underweight baby in squallor , and then after you have lived for a while like that , vaccinate your kids , THEN we can see , if the vaccine has the same results and side effects as it has in this country and then we can make a realistic comparison , not now . 

The background is otherwise simply NOT THE SAME 


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#76 of 131 Old 08-14-2012, 07:32 AM
 
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But that is exactly the point , here in Europe ( or the US ) , we don´t vac malnourished babies , that many times suffer from parasites and other underlying problems , that can compromise their health . 

and one thing , I can tell you for sure , because I have seen it myself , doctors and nurses there don´t take the time ( or even have the time ) to check kids , if they are healthy enough to receive the shot , like my doctor does every time , BEFORE she vaccinates my kids , they just give it to them .

So , unless we send you in a slum to live there for several years , become malnourished , deliver an ( usually ) underweight baby in squallor , and then after you have lived for a while like that , vaccinate your kids , THEN we can see , if the vaccine has the same results and side effects as it has in this country and then we can make a realistic comparison , not now . 

The background is otherwise simply NOT THE SAME 

 

Unfortunately, I wish this were true, at least in the US where the OP is from, premature and low birth weight neonates are routinely given the Hep B vaccination. Doctors and nurses are also quite happy to vaccinate babies and children who are a bit "under the weather" in the first world too. Here is is the CDCs Conditions Commonly Misperceived as Contraindications to Vaccination

 

 

  • Mild acute illness with or without fever
  • Mild-to-moderate local reaction (i.e., swelling, redness, soreness); low-grade or moderate fever after previous dose
  • Lack of previous physical examination in well-appearing person
  • Current antimicrobial therapy1
  • Convalescent phase of illness
  • Preterm birth (hepatitis B vaccine is an exception in certain circumstances)2
  • Recent exposure to an infectious disease
  • History of penicillin allergy, other nonvaccine allergies, relatives with allergies, or receiving allergen extract immunotherapy

 

Hepatitis B vaccination should be deferred for infants weighing <2,000 g if the mother is documented to be HBsAg-negative at the time of the infant's birth. Vaccination can commence at chronological age 1 month or at hospital discharge. For infants born to HBsAg-positive women, hepatitis B immune globulin and hepatitis B vaccine should be administered within 12 hours after birth, regardless of weight.


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Well , to be honest , I am not all too familiar with the vaccine practice in the US , since the years , I lived there , I didn´t require a vacc booster myself and I didn´t have kids yet , but in my native Germany as well as here in Scandinavia , I have never once had a problem , that a doctor or nurse pushes a vaccine on a child , that is not feeling their best .

On the contrary ., when it was time for my now 2-year-old to receive a booster , the nurse who checked her , said " oh we´ll have to delay it , one of her inner ears is red " , which I had no idea about , since she had no symptoms whatsoever . 

But after reading your answer , I believe , we are finally getting to the root of the problem , why , according to some people on here , there are so many people with vaccine -related problems in the States .

It´s not actually the vaccines , it´s the fact , that they are given without any type of consideration of the patient , whether their health or age or other things about them even allows for safe administration of the vaccine . 


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#78 of 131 Old 08-14-2012, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Mirzam: Just wondering so I know for myself, is your opinion to delay the Hep B vaccine to 1 month and then get it? I am Hep B negative, and my baby is certainly over 4 lbs and is full term (I'm due in 2 weeks!)


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#79 of 131 Old 08-14-2012, 09:04 AM
 
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Mirzam: Just wondering so I know for myself, is your opinion to delay the Hep B vaccine to 1 month and then get it? I am Hep B negative, and my baby is certainly over 4 lbs and is full term (I'm due in 2 weeks!)

My opinion is to never give Hep B vaccine to any living being. FWIW, my eldest DD (now 22) had the first dose as a one day old neonate, this was administered in Hong Kong without my permission, they just did it as a matter of policy (I was Hep B neg). She had quite severe prolonged jaundice, thankfully she didn't require billi lights. Compare this with my two younger dcs who never received it (actually at 15 and 12.5 they are still completely unvaccinated) who both had mild physiologic jaundice which is quite normal and quick to resolve. Be aware that Hep B vax at birth can interfere with breast feeding, it took my DD six weeks to be able to latch on properly, thankfully I persevered with nursing and she went on to wean at four years old. Babies two and three had no latch issues and also nursed past their fourth birthday.

 

If you a set on giving the Hep B vax, why not wait until she is an adolescent? 


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Mirzam: No, no. I'm not set on giving her this vaccine at all. I'm really torn over it, that's why I'm trying to get as much information and opinions as possible on it.


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#81 of 131 Old 08-14-2012, 10:52 AM
 
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Mirzam: No, no. I'm not set on giving her this vaccine at all. I'm really torn over it, that's why I'm trying to get as much information and opinions as possible on it.

 

Well, if you are not completely sold on the Hep B, absolutely do not get it in the hospital. That way, you aren't putting any pressure on yourself to make a decision before Ruby is born. Just be very, very clear with the hospital staff that you do not want it.

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Thanks, Mirzam. What is your stance on the Vitamin K shot?


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#83 of 131 Old 08-14-2012, 11:18 AM
 
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Thanks, Mirzam. What is your stance on the Vitamin K shot?

I am not sure I am the right person to ask this question to because my opinion is no to the vit K shot. Again DD1 got it, (hospital c-sec birth) and my other two didn't (home births - youngest with a UC - planned unassisted birth). With my first, I just went along with whatever the dr and hospital's procedures were without question. 

 

Back to Hep B, Louisw has just posted a new thread in the general vaccine forum with some research you might want to read. Abstract   "Vaccines can have adverse side-effects, and these...


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#84 of 131 Old 08-18-2012, 03:23 PM
 
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nutritionjulia - why not just wait until the baby is a little bit older to administer HepB? The argument that it's easier to do it when they're a newborn because they're protected for life ignores the belief that a tiny newborn body with an immature immune system may react negatively to vaccines. If they may benefit from HepB when they're adolescents and more at risk, just get it when they're bigger!


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#85 of 131 Old 08-19-2012, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I think that's what I want to do myself... wait till she's a little older to do the HepB vaccine. Is there a good timeframe to wait until to do that?


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#86 of 131 Old 08-19-2012, 03:58 PM
 
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Over here , they give it at about a year , at least that´s when my older kids got it and never had any problems with it 


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#87 of 131 Old 08-20-2012, 11:07 AM
 
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Just to let you know - newborn jaundice is very common and occurs for reasons that have nothing to do with hepatitis B or C. It also is normally self-limiting or can be resolved with non-invasive treatment. http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/infant-jaundice/DS00107

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Hi Erica,

 

Good luck with the iminent birth of your baby. If your baby healthy, there is no reason to delay the vaccine. I had it done for my little girl when she was born, and she is fit as a fiddle. I did not notice any side effects from the vaccine. I am glad she is protected from hepatitis and that is one less thing I have to worry about her for the rest of her life.

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#89 of 131 Old 08-20-2012, 11:23 AM
 
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Hi Erica,

 

Good luck with the iminent birth of your baby. If your baby healthy, there is no reason to delay the vaccine. I had it done for my little girl when she was born, and she is fit as a fiddle. I did not notice any side effects from the vaccine. I am glad she is protected from hepatitis and that is one less thing I have to worry about her for the rest of her life.

 

That is one anecdote.  Here is another (caution, disturbing images and infant loss mentioned):

http://www.cafemom.com/group/110860/forums/read/16415160/Baby_Ians_Struggle_with_the_HepB_Graphic_Pics


A, jammin.gif mama to a boy (2005) and a girl (2009)
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#90 of 131 Old 08-20-2012, 11:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by nutritionjulia View Post

Hi Erica,

 

Good luck with the iminent birth of your baby. If your baby healthy, there is no reason to delay the vaccine. I had it done for my little girl when she was born, and she is fit as a fiddle. I did not notice any side effects from the vaccine. I am glad she is protected from hepatitis and that is one less thing I have to worry about her for the rest of her life.

There is no reason to do it, either.  If she is worried about Hep B, do it later.   A newborn has almost no risk of Hep B, unless the mother has it.  Surely the argument for injecting something into a newborn must be more than  - they are healthy, so why not?  Do you take medicine you do not need?  Me, neither.

 

Here is another article on Hep B and its potential issues.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/new-study-hepatitis-b-vac_b_289288.html

 

As per a timeline for when to give Hep B if you choose to, here are 2 ideas:

 

1. Early adolescence.  Hep B. is considered a sexually transmitted disease.  It is also common in intravenous drug users.  

 

2.  Before daycare or regularly scheduled play dates and the like begin.  There might a tiny risk from bites, etc - although the articles below say that 95% of Hep B cases relate to sexual activity and intravenous drug use.  It also mentions that Hep B vax might wear off by adolescence.

 

http://www.smartvax.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=93

http://www.smartvax.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=54


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

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