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#61 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 05:13 AM
 
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For those of you considering not vaccinating: this is not just a personal choice that affects your children only. It has ramifications for the entire community, especially those vulnerable people with poor immune systems that cannot be vaccinated themselves and who are at risk of dying from vaccine preventable diseases.

Vaccination is not some conspiracy that every country on earth just happens to buy into. It has eradicated small pox, nearly eradicated polio, rubella, tetanus, and diphtheria.  But thanks to non-vaccinators,  measles and mumps, once rare, are now returning in regular epidemics in developed countries.

By all means, elect not to use an HPV vaccine (Gaurdasil), if your daughter gets cervical cancer that's not a public health problem. But for the other vaccinations its not just a personal choice - you are undermining the health of your entire community. Thanks a lot!

 

-Outraged mother

If it is not a personal choice then why are those with poor immune systems not vaccinated too.  OH, because vaccines can be dangerous?....right.  They can cause the disease they intend to prevent, they can overwhelm the system.  Oh wow,  do you know for SURE that my child can be vaccinated safely?  You don't.  It is unethical to consider anyone else when making a decision for a patient.


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#62 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 05:22 AM
 
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I received your message but when I try to reply it says I don't have permission to send private messages. 


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#63 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 05:38 AM
 
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I'm wondering how much research you have actually done on this topic.  Please share with us your knowledge to back your claims.  No pharma propaganda, please.  

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For those of you considering not vaccinating: this is not just a personal choice that affects your children only. It has ramifications for the entire community, especially those vulnerable people with poor immune systems that cannot be vaccinated themselves and who are at risk of dying from vaccine preventable diseases.

Vaccination is not some conspiracy that every country on earth just happens to buy into. It has eradicated small pox, nearly eradicated polio, rubella, tetanus, and diptheria.  But thanks to non-vaccinators,  measles and mumps, once rare, are now returning in regular epidemics in developed countries.

By all means, elect not to use an HPV vaccine (Gaurdasil), if your daughter gets cervical cancer thats not a public health probem. But for the other vaccinations its not just a personal choice - you are underminig the health of your entire community. Thanks alot!

 

-Outraged mother

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#64 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 06:44 AM
 
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Apart from that, it's all been said. I'm glad there are still rights for people and parents to choose if they want to vax or not. I suppose the OP would have a heart attack in Europe, where, shocker, many countries don't even have school vaccine laws!!! 

 

I fully support whatever a parent chooses, its their bodies, their kids, not my decision to make. You don't want to vax? Great. You want to vax? Great. YOUR decision, not mine to make nor judge. If people don't like that freedom, I suggest moving to more oppressive countries that forcefully vaccinate their children and citizens.

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#65 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 07:11 AM
 
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When did the vax debate get to be so polarizing?  All these divisive statements - they kind of remind me of political sound bites, now that we're in the midst of election here (in the US).  

Somehow, legitimate issues got framed and spinned in ways that evoke strong emotions - how the issues are framed are almost like distractions.  The truth is probably in between the 2 extreme sides.  But we never get to talk about them because emotions get in the way - or rather, for sure they'll get in the way.  

Did this start after the Wakefield MMR-autism study, or earlier, or later?   
 


Pro rights (vaxes).
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#66 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 07:34 AM
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Why should "who knows whose" kids not count? Does a child's death or serious illness not count if you don't personally know them?

I think the op's point is over-stated. Some people shouldn't vaccinate. That said, if huge numbers of people don't vaccinate, VPDs come back, and we're looking at that now. The more diseases return, the harder it is likely to become to get an exemption, even for people who really need one. Keeping the overall vax rates high will keep the diseases in check and preserve the right to exemptions for those who need it.

Serenbat, my family is full of people with health issues and complications who nonetheless live to advanced age in good health. We have tools and technologies that make this happen, and communities are better for it. Survival doesn't come down to fitness, it comes down to access to technology.
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#67 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 07:57 AM
 
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given how you child can die so easily from a nonVPD I don't get this constant outcry....... 

I hear you.

 

With the exception of those who were personally affected by vaccines/ VPD, I don't think the bickering on MDC is about vaccines.

 

You are totally correct - the biggest causes of death in most developed countries is not VPD's - at all  

 

Info on top causes of child death - not a VPD among them:  

http://www.childdeathreview.org/nationalchildmortalitydata.htm

 

 

Here is what I think people are really arguing about when they discuss vaccines:

 

1.  Fear.  We are an anxiety driven, fear ridden society.  There are lots of reasons for it.  Not all of these discussion are entirely rationale - I hear a lot of fear-based statements.  I also think some people might fear they have made the wrong decision - or else they would not argue so hard, make sweeping accusation, etc, etc.

 

2.  Power, control and conformity.  How dare someone challenge my world view by not thinking exactly like me? I am right, I know I am right, and if I argue hard enough you will see the error of your ways…because I am right!  This particularly comes into play if someone comes across as articulate and reasonably intelligent/well researched.  It is easy to dismiss the POV of those who come across as whackadoo to you- it is not so easy to dismiss those who come across intelligently.

 

3.  Society versus individual rights.  Very few people on MDC argue for mandatory vaccines, but they come very close, IMHO.  

 

On a personal note:  I often come down more on the societal side than the individual side.  I am fairly socialist.  I draw the line at my body and the bodies of my children, however.  I am not injecting something that I find questionable into my family for the good of society.  

 

In matters of health, I think parents should be the ones to make decisions for their children.  We are the ones that love them, we are the ones that care for them.  We have more vested interest in our children being healthy than anyone.  

 

 

Oh, and btw, Serenbat, you have more than explained your "fittest survive" statement.  If anyone continues in that vein, I suspect they are deliberatetly misunderstanding you for their own agenda.

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#68 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 08:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

 

 

Here is what I think people are really arguing about when they discuss vaccines:

 

1.  Fear.  We are an anxiety driven, fear ridden society.  There are lots of reasons for it.  Not all of these discussion are entirely rationale - I hear a lot of fear-based statements.  I also think some people might fear they have made the wrong decision - or else they would not argue so hard, make sweeping accusation, etc, etc.

 

2.  Power, control and conformity.  How dare someone challenge my world view by not thinking exactly like me? I am right, I know I am right, and if I argue hard enough you will see the error of your ways…because I am right!  This particularly comes into play if someone comes across as articulate and reasonably intelligent/well researched.  It is easy to dismiss the POV of those who come across as whackadoo to you- it is not so easy to dismiss those who come across intelligently.

 

3.  Society versus individual rights.  Very few people on MDC argue for mandatory vaccines, but they come very close, IMHO.  

 

Excellent summary Kathy.


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#69 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 08:45 AM
 
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Serenbat, my family is full of people with health issues and complications who nonetheless live to advanced age in good health. We have tools and technologies that make this happen, and communities are better for it. Survival doesn't come down to fitness, it comes down to access to technology.

history shows us- there are many developing and underdeveloped countries today that do not have access and there it is all about the fittest surviving- some times you have to look out things out side of your immediate bubble-

 

AND as with thinking outside of your immediate bubble, there are soooooooo many many diseases that can be transmitted globally and have NO vaccines existing for them


 

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#70 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 08:51 AM
 
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Well, if I tell you (and you can see it too) that I just joined today this forum, will you forgive me for not having the time to read the tons of explanations on this board?

 

So mainly, you would want me to vaccine my child for the just in case situations when vaccines don't do their job for who knows whose kids?



In answer to your first question--Sorry. That part of my post was more aimed at serenbat, who has been around a lot longer. I try to avoid using clever but inaccurate 'gotcha' statements at those who have a different pov when I know they're inaccurate, and I'm pretty sure she has participated in that discussion before. Anyhoo.

 

In answer to your second question, no. That is one reason but I also think people who can vax should for the sake of those who can't be vaxed (immune compromised, high risk of reaction, allergy to vaccine component, etc.) or for those who are vaxed but are at high risk if the vax does not 100% protect them. I am a healthcare worker and I get a flu shot every year, partly for myself and my family (I don't want to get the flu, and I don't want to give it to my kid either) but also for my patients (flu shot isn't 100% at protecting the elderly from getting the flu, even if they do all get it which some of them still don't, and it would be a lot worse for one of them than for me).

 

No, I'm not in favor of mandatory vaxes so I'd appreciate if nobody tried to read that into my post.

 

We're all in this society together. We do things that may not be in our immediate 100% best interest but serve society at large all the time, like paying taxes, not driving 90 on the freeway, and probably lots of other things that I could bring to mind if I had more time right now. I'm not trying to start a debate about taxes, but my point is that if we're discussing doing something partly for the good of others in addition to the good of ourselves, we do other things in that vein as well.  

 

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Why should "who knows whose" kids not count? Does a child's death or serious illness not count if you don't personally know them?
I think the op's point is over-stated. Some people shouldn't vaccinate. That said, if huge numbers of people don't vaccinate, VPDs come back, and we're looking at that now. The more diseases return, the harder it is likely to become to get an exemption, even for people who really need one. Keeping the overall vax rates high will keep the diseases in check and preserve the right to exemptions for those who need it.
Serenbat, my family is full of people with health issues and complications who nonetheless live to advanced age in good health. We have tools and technologies that make this happen, and communities are better for it. Survival doesn't come down to fitness, it comes down to access to technology.

I couldn't agree more.

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#71 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 09:03 AM
 
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Some people shouldn't vaccinate. That said, if huge numbers of people don't vaccinate, VPDs come back, and we're looking at that now. The more diseases return, the harder it is likely to become to get an exemption, even for people who really need one. Keeping the overall vax rates high will keep the diseases in check and preserve the right to exemptions for those who need it.
 

 

Where are you seeing that "huge" numbers of people aren't vaccinating and VPDs are "coming back"?  It is my understanding that vaccination rates have remained high and stable, and that some of the VPDs that we have seen outbreaks of lately (pertussis, measles, mumps) never actually "went away" to begin with.  They were never eradicated.

 

That said, the more vaxes on the schedule, the more kids are going to have reactions, and that means that more and more families are going to opt out of vaccinating.  

 

You're going to have to accept that.  

 

My son had a reaction to DTaP.  Perhaps he wouldn't have a reaction to another MMR, and perhaps my daughter wouldn't ever have a reaction to another vax, but I am not willing to take that chance with their health.

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#72 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 09:06 AM
 
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Hey gang: edit your posts. As Bokonon tried to point out to you, posts HAVE to be about the topic and not about other members. Comments about trolling or judgements on someone's historical knowledge or level of care about the world's children are not appropriate, and y'all know that.

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#73 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 09:27 AM
 
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A question for the pro-vaxxers who believe non-vaxxing is selfish:

 

If you thought a vaccine was unsafe and that the cons outweighed the pros, would you give it to your child?

 

 

 

_____________

 

I suspect no one is going to answer the above question.

 

No one is going to put their child at risk if they believe a vaccine is unsafe.

 

Personally, I think everyone who is complaining that "non-vaxxers" are being selfish needs to ask themselves if they are being hypocritical, given the fact they would also choose to not vaccinate if they thought vaccines were not safe.

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#74 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 10:28 AM
 
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genes play a vital role in our overall health

 

you can have twins yet their genes can act totally differently, one can survive an illness such as a VPD (even in the cause of the being both vaccinated and still contracting the disease) and one can not- natural selection takes over- that is not racist nor eugenics


 

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#75 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 11:07 AM
 
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Of course all children count (or at least we pretend they do considering the number of children who die of starvation on the planet bawling.gif) but I don't know who thinks like this: "I will do something that is potentially harmful to my child and can have severe side effects because some children and I have no idea how many and to what extend might be affected by my non vaccinated kid who might get x desease"

 

Is there any study that can prove how many vaccinated kids with low immunity got a desease because of the non vaccinated kids? And did it ever occur that some people with low immunity are like this today because of the multiple vaccines, too many antibiotics and unhealthy life style? 

 

One day we were at a park and a little girl came to play with my daughter. Her mother stopped her and asked me: Is your daughter vaccinated? Because we don't allow ours to play with non vaccinated kids. Unfortunately my daughter was vaccinated up to 2 years, I didn't have enough information about this. 

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#76 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 11:30 AM
 
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Survival doesn't come down to fitness, it comes down to access to technology.

Your position sacrifices anyone who reacts badly to the technology (aka, injected chemicals), as well as those who are reluctant to take their chances with said injected chemicals.

We already know that 2000 people in the US have suffered severe brain damage as a direct result if those injected chemicals. Those cases were ADMITTED by the government and compensated, as were other severe reactions, including deaths. The Italian government recently admitted that a case of autism WAS caused by a vaccine.

There are absolutely no excuses left, and you know it. It's no longer possible to pretend that vaccines are harmless, or even low-risk.

So for you to insist that others should risk their children's health specifically to protect YOUR children is unconscionable.
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#77 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 11:39 AM
 
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I think it would do this thread a world of good to recognize 2 things:

1) We all love children (because, c'mon, this is Mothering afterall)!

2) We all love our children (because they're adorable, of course)!

Assuming that's true for everyone, can we continue this discussion in a respectful way?
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#78 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 01:01 PM
 
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stik, oh the irony of your posts accusing the non vaxers here of being eugenicists when it is those in vaccination movement who are in fact  utilizing vaccines as a means of population control. 

 

Yep.  And what's worse, the same dastardly folks also use clean water projects, sanitation projects, food and animal donations, and help setting up agriculture to increase populations ability to produce their own food as other means of population control. I expect you to start speaking out about the horrors of these at any time, right?  

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#79 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 01:10 PM
 
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stik, oh the irony of your posts accusing the non vaxers here of being eugenicists when it is those in vaccination movement who are in fact  utilizing vaccines as a means of population control. 

 

Yep.  And what's worse, the same dastardly folks also use clean water projects, sanitation projects, food and animal donations, and help setting up agriculture to increase populations ability to produce their own food as other means of population control. I expect you to start speaking out about the horrors of these at any time, right?  

Wrong. Clean water, sanitation and self-sufficient agriculture is admirable and has nothing to do with giving out tetanus vaccines with HCG. Is this the best you can do?


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#80 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 01:30 PM
 
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I can understand the perspective of parents who choose not to vax or who vax on a delayed schedule because they are worried about potential risks of vaccines. I think it's a valid choice for some families.

 

I don't however, understand the perspective of some of those same people who feel that their unvaccinated children pose no risk to other children.

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#81 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 02:01 PM
 
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I can understand the perspective of parents who choose not to vax or who vax on a delayed schedule because they are worried about potential risks of vaccines. I think it's a valid choice for some families.

I don't however, understand the perspective of some of those same people who feel that their unvaccinated children pose no risk to other children.

Perhaps you should consider the fact that vaccinated children still SPREAD pertussis, flu measles, mumps, and rubella, even in the absence of symptoms.

Perhaps you should also take a closer look at the marketing campaign launched by the pharmaceutical industry, where they have lied so often about the safety/efficacy of SO many it their products in order to increase sales.

Look at how often they have been fined for such lies.

Look at how they've lied about the rate of flu deaths.

Look at the recent whistleblower lawsuit launched against Merck by their own virologists, regarding their lies and subsequent cover-up of the lack of efficacy of the mumps portion of the MMR.

And look at the most recent research, which says that "cocooning" (vaccinating the entire here to protect babies too young to be given he pertussis vaccine) DIDN'T WORK.

Do you still not see that the "risk" to vaccinated children from unvaccinated has been invented? And that the relative risk of vaccines has been ignored while both relative risk of the diseases and the efficacy of the vaccines have been exaggerated?
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#82 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 02:06 PM
 
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I can understand the perspective of parents who choose not to vax or who vax on a delayed schedule because they are worried about potential risks of vaccines. I think it's a valid choice for some families.

I don't however, understand the perspective of some of those same people who feel that their unvaccinated children pose no risk to other children.

It seems clear to me that recently vaccinated children pose a far greater risk to others than non vaccinated kids.

Vaccines have interrupted the development of our collective immune systems and done away with natural herd immunity. I could argue that if you really care about social health and the greater good, DON'T vaccinate your kids. It could be viewed as a selfish and fear driven decision that we are manipulated into making.

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#83 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 02:19 PM
 
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I can understand the perspective of parents who choose not to vax or who vax on a delayed schedule because they are worried about potential risks of vaccines. I think it's a valid choice for some families.

 

I don't however, understand the perspective of some of those same people who feel that their unvaccinated children pose no risk to other children.

I don't understand the perspective of some who feel their vaccinated children post no risk to other children.  In my case, a vaccinated child posed a risk to my child last month when she had Pertussis and didn't know it.  Interesting isn't it.  It didn't bother me because I know children get sick, and I don't care to play the blame game.  Parents will continue to do what's best for their own children.  


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#84 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 03:22 PM
 
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Wrong. Clean water, sanitation and self-sufficient agriculture is admirable and has nothing to do with giving out tetanus vaccines with HCG. Is this the best you can do?

 

When infant and child mortality goes down, and parents can be pretty certain of their children living into adulthood and most likely outliving them, the birth rate (and thus population growth) falls.     Vaccines, clean water, sanitation, and self-sufficient agriculture are all means of lowering child mortality.  

 

You may not agree.  But this is what Bill Gates and others mean when they talk about population growth and vaccines.  It is not at all eugenics.  

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#85 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 04:32 PM
 
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I'm not worried about the risk unvaccinated children pose to vaccinated children. I'm worried about the risk unvaccinated kids pose to newborns and immunocompromised children.

I'm fostering newborn twins. This isn't about "my kids" vs your kids. This is about the safety and wellbeing of all kids.

I acknowledge that Big Pharma doesn't always protect human heath. I agree that the media hype about anti-vax parents is overblown and the spread of disease is also overblown. I agree that access to clean air, water, healthy food, antimicrobials, and good hygeine are extremely important, perhaps more important than vaccines.

But the reality is that many (most) vaccines do work and they do save lives. The fact is that unvaccinated children are more likely to spread vaccine-preventable disease than vaccinated children.
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#86 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 04:44 PM
 
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I'm not worried about the risk unvaccinated children pose to vaccinated children. I'm worried about the risk unvaccinayed kids pose to newborns and immunocompromised children.

I'm fostering newborn twins. This isn't about "my kids" vs your kids. This is about the safety and wellbeing of all kids.

So you are saying my unvaccinated children (15 and 12.5) are a risk to your newborn foster twins or an immunocompromised child, even though they are in perfect health - no VPDs (not even a sniffle), and they have immunity to pertussis through an extremely mild natural infection 6 years ago (natural immunity in an unvaccinated individual has been shown to last at least 30 years). Please explain how, they are any more of a health threat than a vaccinated child.


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#87 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 04:54 PM
 
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If you were bit by a neighbor's dog and your neighbor showed you proof that the dog had been vaccinated against rabies then would you worry that you might have rabies?

Now, say you go bit by a wild animal (perhaps a bat). You know that bat wasn't vaccinated against rabies. Might you worry that you'd get rabies?

It's the same principle when anaylizing the potential risk from vaccinated versus unvaccinated children.

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#88 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 05:00 PM
 
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The OP only made 2 posts and is likely doesnt want to have a discussion, and likely stopped reading replies after her second post. 

 

I am immuncompromised and I dont care if you vaccinate or dont. I take precautions to protect myself, and every thing I do comes with a risk. I especially dont like live vaccines because if you are sick I can stay away from you, but if you are shedding live vaccines I really dont have a choice in the matter.

 

I mean, driving 4 hours with my daughter to see my mother is risky and I still choose to do that, and I make that choice for her. I could make a mistake a kill someone, or someone can make a mistake and kill us. I dont have any control over what others do, I just control myself and my actions for what I will believe make the best outcome for us. The risk we take on the highway is probably more risky than dying from measles, should you ever catch it. 

 

You are responsible for doing what you feel you need to protect your twins. I am not responsible for your health, and nobody is responsible for mine. 

 

I am not anti-vaccine, I am pro-parent, and pro-informed choice. The day people can tell me what I have to put in mine or my childs body will be a very sad day indeed. 

 

I really shudder at the thought of ever being forced to vaccinate my child. I am severely autoimmune, and I would be terrified of that being triggered in her. I would rather have measles once in my life time than to ever have to have a life long debilitating autoimmune disease. 


Me(33), Mama to a crazy DD (6), Wife to a wonderful mountain man(32) BF my babe for 2 years.
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#89 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 05:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by marsupial-mom View Post

If you were bit by a neighbor's dog and your neighbor showed you proof that the dog had been vaccinated against rabies then would you worry that you might have rabies?

Now, say you go bit by a wild animal (perhaps a bat). You know that bat wasn't vaccinated against rabies. Might you worry that you'd get rabies?

It's the same principle when anaylizing the potential risk from vaccinated versus unvaccinated children.

okay

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#90 of 264 Old 08-16-2012, 05:17 PM
 
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 it's not the same principal at all comparing animals to humans.   It's been known vaccines can trigger problems in dogs too

Quote:
Originally Posted by marsupial-mom View Post

If you were bit by a neighbor's dog and your neighbor showed you proof that the dog had been vaccinated against rabies then would you worry that you might have rabies?

Now, say you go bit by a wild animal (perhaps a bat). You know that bat wasn't vaccinated against rabies. Might you worry that you'd get rabies?

It's the same principle when anaylizing the potential risk from vaccinated versus unvaccinated children.

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