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#121 of 264 Old 08-17-2012, 06:38 PM
 
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lol.gif  OK then.  Even if I am relying on it (which doesn't factor in to my decision not to vaccinate, BTW), why would that matter?  Hypothetically, if I were making my decisions based on "herd immunity", and vaccination rates dropped and I decided to start vaccinating based on that, I would still be making a conscious choice for the health of my child.  It's still making an educated choice, whether you agree with it or not.

 

Regardless, I don't worry about VPDs.  I do worry about vaccine reactions and the lack of long-term studies about vaccine safety.

 

Do you think it was Russian Roulette to even have a child before vaccines were invented?  I mean, all those humans survived somehow, right?  


Well, sure, they all survived, except for the ones who died of the flu, and measles, and polio....


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#122 of 264 Old 08-17-2012, 06:49 PM
 
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You're relying on herd immunity. You just don't realize you're relying on it.

 


Not us - we use the pre-vaccine rates to make our decision, or the rates in places where vaccine coverage is low for a specific VPD.  However, we do assume that we have access to adequate health care and sanitation. 


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#123 of 264 Old 08-17-2012, 08:13 PM
 
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Well, sure, they all survived, except for the ones who died of the flu, and measles, and polio....

and vaccine reactions...

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#124 of 264 Old 08-17-2012, 08:18 PM
 
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You're relying on herd immunity. You just don't realize you're relying on it.

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#125 of 264 Old 08-17-2012, 08:53 PM
 
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Well, sure, they all survived, except for the ones who died of the flu, and measles, and polio....

 

 

Well what about the ones that died from TB, heart disease, diabetes, drownings, poisoning, fire, falls, plane crashes, etc-------life is Russian Roulette isn't it? 

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#126 of 264 Old 08-17-2012, 09:14 PM
 
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And pets must be vaccinated too.

Now THAT is absurd.  The only thing a pet could possibly transmit to a human that is vaccine preventable is rabies and that is state mandated (Although 13 states do offer exemptions for animals who have already been vaccinated but have had severe reaction or are ill when due for a booster - going through this with my 7yo dog now who is immune compromised and due for her 3yr booster).  My animals are what started me down the road to non-vax in the first place after having horrible reactions.  No way I would ever let someone tell me how to raise my animals or my child.

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#127 of 264 Old 08-17-2012, 09:19 PM
 
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You know what's also a game of Russian roulette? Choosing not to vaccinate, and relying on herd immunity brought about by vaccination to keep your child safe.

 

How do you know your kid won't be one of the kids who dies of the flu? Of measles? Of meningitis?

I don't rely on herd immunity.  I'm healthy, my daughter is healthy - it's a lifestyle, it's genetics.  Healthy people get 'sick' and get over it.  We take copious amounts of vitamin c, more so when illnesss is in the air. 

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#128 of 264 Old 08-17-2012, 09:26 PM
 
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I think we can all agree that neither vaccine reactions or VPDs are nearly as common as, y'know, deaths from actual Russian roulette. To me, that's a pretty poor metaphor. 

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#129 of 264 Old 08-17-2012, 09:30 PM
 
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I think we can all agree that neither vaccine reactions or VPDs are nearly as common as, y'know, deaths from actual Russian roulette. To me, that's a pretty poor metaphor. 

 

Maybe it's a poor analogy, but it wasn't intended as an analogy.  It's a metaphor, meaning it doesn't have to be accurate.

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#130 of 264 Old 08-17-2012, 09:54 PM
 
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I don't think it's a very good metaphor, then. winky.gif


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#131 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 02:19 AM
 
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Yet again , shows that people who SAY they have done research , obviously really haven´t too thoroughly , otherwise they would know , that the first vaccine was actually developed by Edward Jenner , against small pox and happened during a time , when sanitation was surely not up to even the standard of the mid-20th century 

Plus , it was quite accepted, that many kids would not survive their childhood and often not even infancy , because they succumbed to VPD

It is also a known fact , that if you get vaccinated , when you are not suffering form a fever or other issues , but are obviously healthy , then there is no bad , adverse reaction . 

On the contrary , the body producing a fever or in the case of the CP vaccine a few blisters is actually a sign , that the body is reacting properly and doing , what it´s supposed to do , which is building immunity .

Now , the argument , that you don´t get sick , if you have a healthy immune system , okay ... I have to take a deep breath before I  respond to that , because that argument ....eyesroll.gif

A healthy immune system only means , that , if you get sick , you have a better chance of not dying or having irreparable damage from something , but there goes the herd immunity again , of course it is easy for people to say " I don´t vaccinate because it is soooo bad " , since we others , who have used our common sense and have vaccinated , have made sure that most otherwise common , dangerous illnesses have been near-eradicated . 

Which brings up another point , people who don´t vaccinate undermining everything that has been achieved by vaccine programs and endangering the life of my kids , that have not been vacc´d yet , because they are too small . I mean , if you want to die from tetanus , fine , go ahead , but I draw the line , where an unvacced germ bomb can infect my precious baby with something , that can harm her or even kill her . ,

 

[Admin note: tonttu, please edit your post to remove the unvacced germ bomb comment. Every baby is precious, even those who are not vaccinated. Your comment is inflammatory and does nothing to contribute to the discussion in a positive manner. If you continue to post in this manner you may lose your posting privileges.]


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#132 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 03:46 AM
 
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It is also a known fact , that if you get vaccinated , when you are not suffering form a fever or other issues , but are obviously healthy , then there is no bad , adverse reaction

Just to clarify here. Did you really mean to say that adverse vaccine reactions only occur if the person is sick when vaccinated? Because that's what you wrote and there is absolutely no evidence to support that claim whatsoever. The guidelines certainly advise against vaccination if certain symptoms are present but I've never seen anyone claim that reactions only occur in the already unwell.

As for your remarks about "germ bombs", that is rude and uncalled for and I am reporting your post for it.

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#133 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 04:34 AM
 
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Yet again , shows that people who SAY they have done research , obviously really haven´t too thoroughly , otherwise they would know ... 
Which brings up another point , people who don´t vaccinate undermining everything that has been achieved by vaccine programs and endangering the life of my kids , that have not been vacc´d yet , because they are too small . I mean , if you want to die from tetanus , fine , go ahead , but I draw the line , where an unvacced germ bomb can infect my precious baby with something , that can harm her or even kill her . ,

Interesting.

I'd like to see the research you've done that indicates people who don't vaccinate want to die from tetanus, are going to die from tetanus because they didn't vaccinate, and are endangering the life of your kids, who would be presumably fully vaccinated for tetanus and everything else by the time they could walk, anyway.

Also wondering whether you keep your precious baby away from anyone who has recently been vaccinated with live virus vaccines, like FluMist, MMR, and oral polio vaccine (given to those in developing countries), and nothing is stopping them from getting on a plane and shedding cells in your neighborhood, which could certainly infect your baby for up to 3 weeks after the person has been vaccinated, as that person could shed live virus cells for up to 3 weeks.
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#134 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 05:31 AM
 
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In the face of the whooping cough outbreak all over the US occurring in FULLY VACCINATED INDIVIDUALS,  there is NO herd immunity.  Same goes for the measles outbreaks too.  Herd imuunity is a myth phrase coined by pharma. 

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You're relying on herd immunity. You just don't realize you're relying on it.

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#135 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 06:21 AM
 
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Vaccines should be credited with reducing disease rates. Vaccines, combined with better sanitation and improved diets have helped reduce most major childhood diseases. However, viruses will continue to mutate and outbreaks will continue to happen, whether everyone is vaccinated or not. It is not accurate to say attenuated vaccines do not cause illness in others, when infants are given the oral polio dose a warning is given about the risk of those who come in contact with the infants fecal matter developing polio. Also, vaccines are the only drugs that are allowed on the market without ever having gone through double blind studies. That means there is no conclusive evidence one way or another about possible negative side effects. Furthermore, some children have horrible reactions to vaccines, and in the late 1990's there were several deaths attributed to the MMR vaccine, the same batch that induced seizures in my son. I understand the desire that we could give our kids a shot and not have to worry about polio, measles, mumps, etc. I wish it were true. The most important thing to being a good parent is to make the best decisions you can, with the information you have available at the time. I have adopted family from Bangladesh, I know the agony of watching children die from presumably preventable diseases. But I have also seen vaccinated children get sick, and in the US unvaccinated children with healthy immune systems recover more quickly from whooping cough than vaccinated children who get sick. Having children can be very scary, we want to protect our children. But to mandate that every child should be vaccinated, when there have been no double blind studies to prove efficacy nor identify risks, is in my opinion very irresponsible of our government. However, over 70% of FDA funding comes from the very pharmaceutical companies they are supposed to be supporting, so I can understand the confusing and misleading literature on vaccine safety. Most of this information is documented in past Mothering issues and Medical Journals. There are some excellent peer reviewed studies done in the Netherlands and Japan. Feel free to research them. In fact, Japan has banned the MMR vaccine, due to public safety concerns. (The actual number of children with complications from the vaccine was 2,000 times higher than anticipated.) I hope this helps illustrate that when parents choose not to vaccinate it is never merely a personal choice. It is a choice that has involved lots of painstaking research, and unfortunately, usually a bad experience.

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#136 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 06:33 AM
 
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Yet again , shows that people who SAY they have done research , obviously really haven´t too thoroughly.

Simply because they have not come to the same conclusion as you does not mean they have not researched

 

It is also a known fact , that if you get vaccinated , when you are not suffering form a fever or other issues , but are obviously healthy , then there is no bad , adverse reaction . 

That is simply untrue.  Getting a vax while sick is more risky (IMHO). The CDC and AAP allow it for mild illness  eyesroll.gif, but getting a vax while perfectly healthy still carries a risk.

 

On the contrary , the body producing a fever or in the case of the CP vaccine a few blisters is actually a sign , that the body is reacting properly and doing , what it´s supposed to do , which is building immunity .

I would prefer to take my chances with actual CP for healthy children.

 

Now , the argument , that you don´t get sick , if you have a healthy immune system , okay ... I have to take a deep breath before I  respond to that , because that argument ....eyesroll.gif

A healthy immune system only means , that , if you get sick , you have a better chance of not dying or having irreparable damage from something.  Agreed.   

 

but there goes the herd immunity again , of course it is easy for people to say " I don´t vaccinate because it is soooo bad " , since we others , who have used our common sense and have vaccinated , have made sure that most otherwise common , dangerous illnesses have been near-eradicated . 

 

What you are not getting, and I will speak for only myself here:  In most cases, I would take the risk of getting the disease (even if no one vaccinated, and VPD rates went up) over the vax.  Some people will say "what about the immuno-compromised and infants?Those diseases are dangerous for them." I agree, they are.  I cannot make health decisions for my family, though, particularly non-benign ones like vaccines, based on another groups susceptibility.

 

 

Which brings up another point , people who don´t vaccinate undermining everything that has been achieved by vaccine programs and endangering the life of my kids , that have not been vacc´d yet , because they are too small . I mean , if you want to die from tetanus , fine , go ahead , but I draw the line , where an unvacced germ bomb can infect my precious baby with something , that can harm her or even kill her . ,

 

You vax to protect your child.

I do not vax to protect mine

 

I respect your choice to do as you see fit by your child

You do not respect mine, as you think it endangers *your* child.

 

and non-vaxxers are called selfish

 

(and before you say "but vaxxing does not affect others" - um, yes it does.  I would prefer shingles to not be skyrocketing, I would prefer my children to have natural immunity to really mild childhood diseases, rather than risk vaccines or risk getting the disease in adolescence/adulthood - when it is more dangerous.)

 

 

 

 

K.

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#137 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 07:05 AM
 
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#138 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 07:36 AM
 
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It really sounds like the pro-vaxers, even though they deny it, are actually pushing mandatory vaccines by implying that unvaccinated children are undermining everything that has been achieved by vaccine programs and endangering the life of children too young to be vaccinated. What is conveniently swept under the carpet is the fact that pre-vaccine, these childhood disease (talking measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox and whooping cough) were diseases of childhood and just about every child contracted them between the ages of 3 to 8, by 10, they were done, and had both cell and humoral immunity that was robust and life-long. They would also come into contact with these diseases through younger children which would give their immune system a reminder, a boost. When these children grew to adulthood they passed this immunity to their young babies, the mothers via maternal antibodies and the those around the baby via natural herd immunity. Now without these disease circulating and the resulting natural herd immunity, the very young and the immunocompromised are at risk when they never were before. As vaccine immunity is inferior to natural immunity, it is becoming more and more apparent that it wears off, these childhood diseases are now becoming diseases of young adults who are not as well equipped to handle them so they potentially are more dangerous to the individual. But this inferior immunity doesn't matter to the vaccine manufacturers or the vaccine policy makers, because all they need do is add more boosters. Vaccines are fast becoming a cradle to grave solution which of course is exactly what the manufactures want $$$$$.


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#139 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 09:11 AM
 
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Interesting.
I'd like to see the research you've done that indicates people who don't vaccinate want to die from tetanus, are going to die from tetanus because they didn't vaccinate, and are endangering the life of your kids, who would be presumably fully vaccinated for tetanus and everything else by the time they could walk, anyway.
 

It is a common and easy to find out fact , that up to 73 % of people , who have contracted it , will die from a tetanus infection .

And if you would bother to actually read my post thoroughly , you would also have understood , that tetanus , as it is not an infection , that can be spread from one person to another , is one of those vaccines , where it doesn´t hurt others if you don´t get vacced against it , thus making it your own choice .


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#140 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 09:14 AM
 
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Yet again , shows that people who SAY they have done research , obviously really haven´t too thoroughly , otherwise they would know , that the first vaccine was actually developed by Edward Jenner , against small pox and happened during a time , when sanitation was surely not up to even the standard of the mid-20th century 

Plus , it was quite accepted, that many kids would not survive their childhood and often not even infancy , because they succumbed to VPD

It is also a known fact , that if you get vaccinated , when you are not suffering form a fever or other issues , but are obviously healthy , then there is no bad , adverse reaction . 

On the contrary , the body producing a fever or in the case of the CP vaccine a few blisters is actually a sign , that the body is reacting properly and doing , what it´s supposed to do , which is building immunity .

Now , the argument , that you don´t get sick , if you have a healthy immune system , okay ... I have to take a deep breath before I  respond to that , because that argument ....eyesroll.gif

A healthy immune system only means , that , if you get sick , you have a better chance of not dying or having irreparable damage from something , but there goes the herd immunity again , of course it is easy for people to say " I don´t vaccinate because it is soooo bad " , since we others , who have used our common sense and have vaccinated , have made sure that most otherwise common , dangerous illnesses have been near-eradicated . 

Which brings up another point , people who don´t vaccinate undermining everything that has been achieved by vaccine programs and endangering the life of my kids , that have not been vacc´d yet , because they are too small . I mean , if you want to die from tetanus , fine , go ahead , but I draw the line , where an unvacced germ bomb can infect my precious baby with something , that can harm her or even kill her . ,

 

Your posts continue to be offensive and grossly inaccurate.

 

I've done thousands of hours of research.  Did you know that the smallpox vaccine was responsible for causing smallpox and killing many recipients?

 

It is absolutely not a "known fact" that if you don't have a fever, you won't suffer an adverse reaction from a vaccine.  Not at all.  That is absolutely preposterous.  A vaccine is a drug like any other, and adverse reactions happen all the time.  Why do you think there are vaccine information sheets about possible and known adverse reactions if they don't happen in healthy patients?  How dare you assert that those of us who have WATCHED our children have reactions are lying?  When we've had doctors agree that our children have vaccine injuries?

 

A germ bomb?  You've got to be kidding.  You have no idea what you are talking about.


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#141 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 09:26 AM
 
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Your posts continue to be offensive and grossly inaccurate.

 

I've done thousands of hours of research.  Did you know that the smallpox vaccine was responsible for causing smallpox and killing many recipients?

 

It is absolutely not a "known fact" that if you don't have a fever, you won't suffer an adverse reaction from a vaccine.  Not at all.  That is absolutely preposterous.  A vaccine is a drug like any other, and adverse reactions happen all the time.  Why do you think there are vaccine information sheets about possible and known adverse reactions if they don't happen in healthy patients?  How dare you assert that those of us who have WATCHED our children have reactions are lying?  When we've had doctors agree that our children have vaccine injuries?

 

A germ bomb?  You've got to be kidding.  You have no idea what you are talking about.


Really ? Did you also know , that smallpox ALSO killed thousands ?

Of course , there are risks to everything , but that is like saing " I won´t take antibiotics , because it MAY have side effects "

The fact , however , remains , that the benefits far outweigh the risks !

For those , who don´t know , I have a severely handicapped child as well , but there is no way in hell , that on top of all the other problems he has , I would deny him vaccines , it is especially crucial in his case , that he remains as healthy as possible .


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#142 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 09:33 AM
 
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Really ? Did you also know , that smallpox ALSO killed thousands ?

Of course , there are risks to everything , but that is like saing " I won´t take antibiotics , because it MAY have side effects "

The fact , however , remains , that the benefits far outweigh the risks !

For those , who don´t know , I have a severely handicapped child as well , but there is no way in hell , that on top of all the other problems he has , I would deny him vaccines , it is especially crucial in his case , that he remains as healthy as possible .

 

As a matter of fact, I did know that.  Are you saying that the thousands of people who were sickened and died from the smallpox vaccine don't matter?  That they were lucky to not have had to get smallpox?

 

It is your personal opinion that the benefits outweigh the risks.  Many of us do not feel that way, especially considering there are no long-term studies about the safety and effectiveness of the vaccine schedule.  What we inject into our infants now may have dire consequences decades from now.

 

You think that vaccines make you healthy.  I disagree.  My great-grandparents who lived into their 90s would have disagreed as well.  Do you keep older people away from your children because they have not been immunized against everything that is on the current vaccine schedule?  


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#143 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 09:35 AM
 
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Really ? Did you also know , that smallpox ALSO killed thousands ?

Of course , there are risks to everything , but that is like saing " I won´t take antibiotics , because it MAY have side effects "

The fact , however , remains , that the benefits far outweigh the risks !

For those , who don´t know , I have a severely handicapped child as well , but there is no way in hell , that on top of all the other problems he has , I would deny him vaccines , it is especially crucial in his case , that he remains as healthy as possible .

 

Sigh, more smallpox revisionist history. Antibiotics don't "MAY" have side effects, they ALWAYS have side effects in that they destroy all bacteria, "good and bad" and should only be used when absolutely necessary. Alexander Flemming was very clear to say they should only be used in life threatening cases. Lastly, for the nth time, vaccines DO NOT CONFER GOOD HEALTH, they create dubious humoral antibodies and many, many health problems.

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#144 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 09:44 AM
 
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Didn't say that.  I just find the divisiveness ridiculous.  This is the same argument over and over and over.  It's tired. 

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#145 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 09:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Imakcerka View Post

Didn't say that.  I just find the divisiveness ridiculous.  This is the same argument over and over and over.  It's tired.

This we can agree on.


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"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

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#146 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 09:56 AM
 
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Smallpox isn't even on the the schedule anymore, except for at-risk populations like military personel. Why is that? Perhaps because the risks outweigh the benefitsfor the general population??? We know that it sheds and spreads the disease, especially to people with certain health conditions such as eczema. The cdc itself lists eczema as a contradiction for smallpox vax for *anyone* residing in the same household with someone who has ever been diagnosed with it. That is a pretty significant portion of the population who would be at risk from the *vax*.

 

And antibiotics, yeah some of us prefer other methods of dealing with infection in most cases. I've dealt with numerous cases of mastitis w/o needing to resort to them. Only 3 of my 6 kids have needed them, a total of 6 times in 12+ years. 

 

Tetanus, well my kids are not in the at-risk population (elderly and diabetics) and we practice proper would care. If they received an injury that put them at risk for it we would get tig. My daughter sliced her finger open and the er did not even ask about it. Considering the number of rabid animals found in our immediate area this year, I am more concerned about it than tetanus or pertussis or anything else on the vpd schedule. 

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#147 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 12:23 PM
 
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Smallpox isn't even on the the schedule anymore, except for at-risk populations like military personel. Why is that? Perhaps because the risks outweigh the benefitsfor the general population??? We know that it sheds and spreads the disease, especially to people with certain health conditions such as eczema. The cdc itself lists eczema as a contradiction for smallpox vax for *anyone* residing in the same household with someone who has ever been diagnosed with it. That is a pretty significant portion of the population who would be at risk from the *vax*.

 

And antibiotics, yeah some of us prefer other methods of dealing with infection in most cases. I've dealt with numerous cases of mastitis w/o needing to resort to them. Only 3 of my 6 kids have needed them, a total of 6 times in 12+ years. 

 

Tetanus, well my kids are not in the at-risk population (elderly and diabetics) and we practice proper would care. If they received an injury that put them at risk for it we would get tig. My daughter sliced her finger open and the er did not even ask about it. Considering the number of rabid animals found in our immediate area this year, I am more concerned about it than tetanus or pertussis or anything else on the vpd schedule. 

 

Absolutely the risks of the smallpox vaccine (probably the most dangerous vaccine ever in widespread use for humans) outweighs the risks of a disease that now only exists in a few frozen samples.  Just to clarify, you can not get or spread smallpox from the smallpox vaccine.  The vaccine actually infects you with vaccinia, a disease that is closely enough related to smallpox that immunity to it also protects against smallpox.  Vaccinia usually says localized to the vaccination area and can be covered with a bandage, but occasionally it can spread to other parts of the body or to other people.  While usually it is an extremely mild disease, it can in rare cases be serious or even deadly, but it kills even less often than chickenpox does.  

 

In the early days when vaccination occurred by taking puss directly from one person and inserted on a wound on another, or later when it was grown on a wound on a cow and the same instrument would have been used to cut many people to insert the disease probably not being sterilized that well (or maybe at all at times) between uses, I have no trouble believing that the vaccination process may, at times, have spread smallpox (if someone was already infected the people vaccinated after them could  be at risk) as well as all sorts of other communicable disease.  But in today's world of carefully controlled manufacture and alcohol wipes and disposable needles, that is extremely unlikely to happen - it would take deliberate sabotage or health care workers intentionally breaking the rules and re-using single use instruments.  

 

At the same time they started vaccinating military and key medical personal, they also were worrying about stockpiles of vaccine and making sure they had enough to vaccinate everyone if the need arose.  I'm not sure of the wisdom of vaccinating even military personnel with just a theoretical risk, and no way would we have gotten it for us or our kids if had been offered to the general population.  But if smallpox actually were to be used in germ warfare and began to spread again, my family would be lining up for the vaccine. 

 

That is awesome that your kids haven't needed vaccines very often.  Mine haven't either - out of three kids, with an eldest who is nine, only my middle son has had antibiotics, though he did have them twice.  I'm not sure if you would have thought any of mine needed them though, since I accepted the antibiotics the doctor offered on the first day of an ear infection rather than waiting to see if it cleared up on its own, and I'm sure some here would have suggested I try to treat is impetigo with tea tree oil or honey instead of going directly to oral antibiotics.  My fully vaxed kids are reasonably healthy, but I don't think them exceptionally so (only one ear infection out of all three of them, but they do get the occasional cold and have a few stomach bugs each), and find little value in comparing the number of times antibiotics were used or how many time a person has had strep or whatever, or anecdotes in general.  Good nutrition and healthy living certainly is important, but a lot of it comes down to luck and what you happen to be exposed to & how much of an exposure you get, and the internal structure of the ears make some small children extremely prone to ear infections while other kids have little chance of getting them - ear structure is among the things you can't control.  

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#148 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 12:42 PM
 
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For anyone interested in learning a bit more about the history of smallpox than the revisionist history taught in schools and parroted in the media, I highly recommend reading this article by researcher Jennifer Craig, BSN, MA, PhD, Smallpox Vaccine: Origins of Vaccine Madness. For those that believe that smallpox only exists in government labs, sorry it is still alive and well and infecting humans today.  There is more on smallpox/monkey pox in Suzanne Humphries MD's article "Herd Immunity", The flawed science and failures of mass vaccination.


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"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

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#149 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 12:59 PM
 
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I am currently going through this thread and removing insulting and personal attacks.  Again, please debate the post, not the poster.  People's access to threads will be removed if they can not stick to the UA. 


 
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#150 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 01:00 PM
 
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Bokonon-

Please remove the last line of your post.  It is a personal attack. 


 
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