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#151 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 01:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by stik View Post

How nice for you. It must be great to have the healthiest kids on the block.
Didn't we have this conversation in the Case for Vax thread just about a month ago? Is there a time limit now on how long we can go without someone using the words "survival of the fittest" and then acting surprised when other people get upset?

 

I must have missed this earlier.

 

This did not happen. No one used the words "survival of the fittest." in that thread.  Reread the final few pages of the Case for vaccination if you like - it is locked, it cannot be edited.  


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#152 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 01:06 PM
 
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Okay, it spreads *a* disease, not smallpox proper, still it is enough of a risk that the cdc warns about it and it is contrindicated in a significant portion of the population. My points being 1) that vax can spread disease contrary to what op stated and 2) vaxxes can be removed from the schedule when it is determined that the risks outweight the benefits for the general population. Why then is it wrong for me as a parent to decide that the risks of other vaxxes outweigh the benecits for my child and opt out of it without being attacked and told that we are killing our children as well as others?

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#153 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 01:06 PM
 
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db post - sorry

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#154 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 01:07 PM
 
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dbl post.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#155 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 01:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Imakcerka View Post

  I just find the divisiveness ridiculous.  

 

I don't see it ending any time soon.  

 

On this thread alone, non vaxxers have been accused of eugenics, racism and extreme selfishness.  2 or 3 of the posters have done most of the accusing, but they got a lot of thumbs up.

 

That is not something people dismiss.

 

(and before anyone complains that non-vaxxer throw insults too, forget about it. "Not crunchy enough for MDC" and "sheeple" are hardly in the same category as eugenic racist.)

 

_________

 

Edit to add:  I know not all pro-vaxxers think like this.


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#156 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 01:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

 

I don't see it ending any time soon.  

 

On this thread alone, non vaxxers have been accused of eugenics, racism and extreme selfishness.  2 or 3 of the posters have done most of the accusing, but they got a lot of thumbs up.

 

That is not something people dismiss.

 

(and before anyone complains that non-vaxxer throw insults too, forget about it. "Not crunchy enough for MDC" and "sheeple" are hardly in the same category as eugenic racist.)

 

 

I really don't care.  What's that point?  If someone states something that is not definitive however really makes you take a step back and think, yay.  But that rarely happens here anyway.

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#157 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 02:32 PM
 
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 If someone states something that is not definitive however really makes you take a step back and think, yay.  But that rarely happens here anyway.

 

 

 

A respectful environment is a foundation for good debate and discussion - that is how we are going to get to the point where people really discuss things  and people challenge each others ideas in a good way.  We are all responsible for what we say and how we say it - but I think there is too much water under the bridge at this point on this forum.  I think there is a tipping point with posting - most forums can handle one or two nasty posters, but we are past a tipping point.    Personally, I would like to see some heavy modding on this forum, even if just for a few months.  


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#158 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 04:30 PM
 
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Before I get jumped on (we vax for all of the scary things that media like to allude to, e.g. measles, pertussis, polio), I have to say that the selfishness argument works both ways.  You could also argue that it’s selfish to expect every parent under the sun to vaccinate their children--despite all known risks and despite the glaring dearth of independent, longitudinal, placebo-controlled research on the current vaccine schedule--just so that YOU can feel psychologically comforted that YOUR child will never catch these diseases.

 

Outraged Mom, there are more productive places to direct your outrage.  You could first demand that drug companies start developing a more effective vaccine for pertussis, since we now know that it is vaccine failure that is contributing to the recent outbreaks.  Second, you can demand more honesty and transparency from corporations like Merck, which is currently being sued for publicly exaggerating the effectiveness of its mumps vaccine. 

 

Finally, trying to appeal to utilitarian ethics to guilt parents into complying with the CDC schedule simply won’t work.  Someone *might* end up feeling like crap, but I’m guessing that they’re more likely to resent your finger-wagging than rush out to get all of those vaccines. 

 

On some level, we all make utilitarian choices “for the greater good” every day.  I love Thai food and my family hates it.  So we never go out for Thai food…a small sacrifice I make to keep the family reasonably happy.  Also, I actually opted for the measles vax because I’d hate to be responsible for my children spreading this disease. But this kind of altruism needs to be *voluntary* (which is why I oppose everything from vaccine mandates to the military draft, i.e. forcing people to fight for “the greater good” of their country) and certainly not the result of someone else’s mean-spirited guilt trip.

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#159 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 04:33 PM
 
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If you've got a link, I'd love to see it.  smile.gif

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 However, over 70% of FDA funding comes from the very pharmaceutical companies they are supposed to be supporting, so I can understand the confusing and misleading literature on vaccine safety.


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#160 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 04:38 PM
 
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Bokonon-

Please remove the last line of your post.  It is a personal attack. 

 

I will, but I honestly cannot see how that can be considered a personal attack whatsoever.


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#161 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 04:46 PM
 
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 I would take the risk of getting the disease (even if no one vaccinated, and VPD rates went up) over the vax. Some people will say "what about the immuno-compromised and infants?Those diseases are dangerous for them." I agree, they are. I cannot make health decisions for my family, though, particularly non-benign ones like vaccines, based on another groups susceptibility.

 

As I said previously...

Choosing not to vax is your choice. But you have a responsibility to refrain from exposing unvaxed kids to newborns or kids with compromised immune systems. And we all have a responsibility to keep sick kids away from others to prevent the spread of disease.

 

I'm not saying you have to vaccinate. I'm not saying that there ought to be legal mandates for all healthy children to be vaxxed. I'm saying that if you don't vax, please keep your children away from the children who are most suseptible to disease. Or at the very least, give the other parents information and the same freedom to choose how much they want to risk their child's health. Other parents, the ones who vaccinate, DO NOT prefer the risk of the disease over the risk of the vaccination. They simply can't vax their kids yet because they're too young or too sick.

 

So please, don't force your choices on other parents. Keep your children from touching or breathing on newborns. Is that really too much to ask? I think almost all good parents would think that's a good idea. It's not about thinking that unvaxxed kids are "germ bombs" or "vectors of disease" (phrases I never used!) it's simply that newborns don't have the immune systems of older children or adults. And my little foster babies are particularly suseptible because they were preemies and because they're formula-fed (thus don't get any breastmilk antibodies). I really don't want anyone touching these kiddos, but it's not fair to force us to just stay indoors all the time. Can't I expect people to use a little common courtesy and keep a distance if they're sick or unvaxxed?

 

We live in the world with other people. We have to figure out ways to negotiate our differences and respect our choices. I'm not trying to make anyone vaccinate their kids if they don't want to. But just as nonvaxers believe vaccinations are dangerous, pro-vaxers believe that unvaxxed kids are dangerous. We can both believe the other side is ill-informed and has made the wrong choice, but please let's respect eachother's choices by providing as safe an environment as we can for all our kids.

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#162 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 05:19 PM
 
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So please, don't force your choices on other parents. Keep your children from touching or breathing on newborns. Is that really too much to ask? I think almost all good parents would think that's a good idea. It's not about thinking that unvaxxed kids are "germ bombs" or "vectors of disease" (phrases I never used!) it's simply that newborns don't have the immune systems of older children or adults. And my little foster babies are particularly suseptible because they were preemies and because they're formula-fed (thus don't get any breastmilk antibodies). I really don't want anyone touching these kiddos, but it's not fair to force us to just stay indoors all the time. Can't I expect people to use a little common courtesy and keep a distance if they're sick or unvaxxed?

.

Most parents of the unvaxxed do not walk around announcing their child's vax status.  There are a variety of reasons for this. You are the (foster) mama - it is your job to protect the babies as you see fit.  Ask about peoples vaccines status if you are worried.  I would not lie to you if asked.  I don't think I would skip an event (let's say we had both been invited to a party) due to your newborns being there with my not sick unvaxxed kids - but I would keep them away from your babies if you asked me to.  I would do it to be nice and because they are your babies - not because I shared your concern over a not sick child giving a newborn a disease.  

 

I suspect that is about as good as it is going to get.  Most unvaaxed do not stay home all the time so as not to cause others discomfort with their unvaxxed status.  


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

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#163 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 05:35 PM
 
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Most parents of the unvaxxed do not walk around announcing their child's vax status.  There are a variety of reasons for this. You are the (foster) mama - it is your job to protect the babies as you see fit.  Ask about peoples vaccines status if you are worried.  I would not lie to you if asked.  I don't think I would skip an event (let's say we had both been invited to a party) due to your newborns being there with my not sick unvaxxed kids - but I would keep them away from your babies if you asked me to.  I would do it to be nice and because they are your babies - not because I shared your concern over a not sick child giving a newborn a disease.  

 

I suspect that is about as good as it is going to get.  Most unvaaxed do not stay home all the time so as not to cause others discomfort with their unvaxxed status.  

 

And again, unvaxxed does not equal sick.  Not in children, and not in adults.  I highly doubt that any adults have had all of the current childhood vaccines.  Adults can be vectors of illness just as much as children can.

 

I don't let my children breathe or touch any newborns except when the parents of the newborn tell them to, but not because of their vaccination status.  It's more out of consideration and the fact that they could have any number of non-VPD viruses at any given time, which are potentially more dangerous to an infant than most VPDs.  

 

Honestly, your babies are going to be more exposed to VPDs at the pediatrician's office in vaxed and unvaxed kids than from any other unvaxed or undervaxed person, child or otherwise.   

 

My babies were both preemies, and while they were breastfed, I limited my first's outings during his first winter.  I never asked anyone about their vax status, as it never occurred to me to worry about VPDs.  I WAS worried about RSV though, so I kept him home for the most part during winter.  It wasn't about what was "fair" to him or me, it was about keeping him safe from an illness that anyone can carry at any time and not realize it, an illness that is not vaccine-preventable but can be very dangerous in infants.

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#164 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 05:44 PM
 
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As I said previously...
Choosing not to vax is your choice. But you have a responsibility to refrain from exposing unvaxed kids to newborns or kids with compromised immune systems. And we all have a responsibility to keep sick kids away from others to prevent the spread of disease.

I'm not saying you have to vaccinate. I'm not saying that there ought to be legal mandates for all healthy children to be vaxxed. I'm saying that if you don't vax, please keep your children away from the children who are most suseptible to disease. Or at the very least, give the other parents information and the same freedom to choose how much they want to risk their child's health. Other parents, the ones who vaccinate, DO NOT prefer the risk of the disease over the risk of the vaccination. They simply can't vax their kids yet because they're too young or too sick.

So please, don't force your choices on other parents. Keep your children from touching or breathing on newborns. Is that really too much to ask? I think almost all good parents would think that's a good idea. It's not about thinking that unvaxxed kids are "germ bombs" or "vectors of disease" (phrases I never used!) it's simply that newborns don't have the immune systems of older children or adults. And my little foster babies are particularly suseptible because they were preemies and because they're formula-fed (thus don't get any breastmilk antibodies). I really don't want anyone touching these kiddos, but it's not fair to force us to just stay indoors all the time. Can't I expect people to use a little common courtesy and keep a distance if they're sick or unvaxxed?

We live in the world with other people. We have to figure out ways to negotiate our differences and respect our choices. I'm not trying to make anyone vaccinate their kids if they don't want to. But just as nonvaxers believe vaccinations are dangerous, pro-vaxers believe that unvaxxed kids are dangerous. We can both believe the other side is ill-informed and has made the wrong choice, but please let's respect eachother's choices by providing as safe an environment as we can for all our kids.

You can't know the vax status of every person you see/come into contact with and honestly my kids medical information is not anyone else's business, regardless of how you feel about it. Ive never been asked, if I was I'd probably just say that we follow an alternative schedule and leave it at that.

Now, when my kids are *sick*, I leave them at home. I will never.expose anyone to sickness be it mine or my kids. My kids having chicken pox was the longest time we stayed at home ever and it sucked.

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#165 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 06:08 PM
 
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http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AboutFDA/ReportsManualsForms/Reports/BudgetReports/UCM291555.pdf

 

FDA budgeting for fiscal year 2013.  They mention in the foreword the approval of 35 "novel medicines" and there's even a nice brag about how we do this quicker than other countries (good job patting themselves on the back??).  They are requesting a 4.4 BILLION dollar budget.  600+ pages of back patting, section on how they are encouraging new vaccine development (as if there weren't enough)...i found this one interesting: 

"CBER monitors the safety of vaccines after licensure to ensure their safety under

conditions of routine use in the general population. CBER reviews, interprets, and

analyzes adverse event reports collected through VAERS for signals of possible new

safety issues associated with vaccine use in the general population."

So they do their own interpreting which is a big red flag for potential bias.

 

http://www.fda.gov/ForIndustry/UserFees/PrescriptionDrugUserFee/default.htm

"The Prescription Drug User Fee Act (PDUFA) was enacted in 1992 and renewed in 1997 (PDUFA II), 2002 (PDUFA III), 2007 (PDUFA IV), and 2012 (PDUFA V).  It authorizes FDA to collect fees from companies that produce certain human drug and biological products."

That comes from the FDA website.  Pharm companies fund the FDA.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/30/us-congress-fda-idUSBRE84T1LQ20120530

"The main purpose of the bill is to reauthorize fees from makers of drugs and devices that help speed FDA evaluation of new medical products. These so-called "user fees" could make up nearly half of the FDA's proposed $4.5 billion budget next year, according to a plan from President Barack Obama......Starting this year, for the first time the FDA will collect fees from makers of generic drugs and of copycat versions of complex biotech drugs, known as biosimilars."

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#166 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 06:24 PM
 
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So please, don't force your choices on other parents. Keep your children from touching or breathing on newborns. Is that really too much to ask? I think almost all good parents would think that's a good idea. It's not about thinking that unvaxxed kids are "germ bombs" or "vectors of disease" (phrases I never used!) it's simply that newborns don't have the immune systems of older children or adults. And my little foster babies are particularly suseptible because they were preemies and because they're formula-fed (thus don't get any breastmilk antibodies). I really don't want anyone touching these kiddos, but it's not fair to force us to just stay indoors all the time. Can't I expect people to use a little common courtesy and keep a distance if they're sick or unvaxxed?

 

We live in the world with other people. We have to figure out ways to negotiate our differences and respect our choices. I'm not trying to make anyone vaccinate their kids if they don't want to. But just as nonvaxers believe vaccinations are dangerous, pro-vaxers believe that unvaxxed kids are dangerous. We can both believe the other side is ill-informed and has made the wrong choice, but please let's respect eachother's choices by providing as safe an environment as we can for all our kids.

Well not forcing choices goes both ways.  So unless we all walk around with our vax status tattooed to our foreheads it really makes no difference.  Those babies being preemies were most likely exposed to far worse things while in the hospital than they will be on the outside.  And it's not fair to force unvaxxed kids and familes to stay indoors either.  If you're worried about someone holding their breathing child over your babies (which would be bizzare to begin with), perhaps you should cover them up.  I babywear so I can keep my kid covered and close to avoid finger poking from random grandmas in need of a baby fix.

 

I'm not understanding the comparisson - I don't vax because of imperfections in vaccines, but I don't think ill of anyone who choses to vax.  While you (pro-vaxers), rather than seeing the diseases as dangerous, believe that the children are instead the things to fear?  So who's the group with the respect issue here.....

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#167 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 07:18 PM
 
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What is the confirmed number of morbidity/mortality of  immunocompromised individuals due to unvaxed kids/adults - how is this number compared to morbidity/mortality due to confirmed vax injuries?


Pro rights (vaxes).
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#168 of 264 Old 08-18-2012, 10:24 PM
 
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What is the confirmed number of morbidity/mortality of  immunocompromised individuals due to unvaxed kids/adults - how is this number compared to morbidity/mortality due to confirmed vax injuries?


finding  accurate vax injury date would be difficult since the drug companies will not admit fault. 

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#169 of 264 Old 08-19-2012, 12:42 AM
 
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If you were bit by a neighbor's dog and your neighbor showed you proof that the dog had been vaccinated against rabies then would you worry that you might have rabies?

Now, say you go bit by a wild animal (perhaps a bat). You know that bat wasn't vaccinated against rabies. Might you worry that you'd get rabies?

It's the same principle when anaylizing the potential risk from vaccinated versus unvaccinated children.

 

What if, instead of comparing a pet dog to a wild animal - you compare a small inside dog to another small inside dog.  One bit you.  Are you really concerned about rabies vaccination status?

 

A vaccinated child can carry disease just as easily as a vaccine-free child.  If I were a parent of an immune compromised child, I wouldn't let vaccination status give me a false sense of security (or an exaggerated fear) about how likely it is that germs will be spread to my child.


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#170 of 264 Old 08-19-2012, 03:37 AM
 
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No, they cannot carry disease just as easily. They are far less likely to carry disease.
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#171 of 264 Old 08-19-2012, 03:38 AM
 
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Quote:
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What is the confirmed number of morbidity/mortality of  immunocompromised individuals due to unvaxed kids/adults - how is this number compared to morbidity/mortality due to confirmed vax injuries?


finding  accurate vax injury date would be difficult since the drug companies will not admit fault. 


They don't have to. That's what the vaccine compensation program is for. And many many researchers.
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#172 of 264 Old 08-19-2012, 03:51 AM
 
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My babies were both preemies, and while they were breastfed, I limited my first's outings during his first winter.  I never asked anyone about their vax status, as it never occurred to me to worry about VPDs.  I WAS worried about RSV though, so I kept him home for the most part during winter.  It wasn't about what was "fair" to him or me, it was about keeping him safe from an illness that anyone can carry at any time and not realize it, an illness that is not vaccine-preventable but can be very dangerous in infants.

RSV is nasty. I had a foster baby once who brought it into our home and we all got it. He spent a couple days in the hospital recovering and we all spent a few weeks in hell from it. I will not and have not argued that vaccination of other diseases is some sort of panacea. I do not have a "false sense of security" due to vaccinations. Indeed, I'm am well aware that not all serious diseases are preventable through vaccinations.

 

As far as my personal experience goes, I have also had measles and chicken pox. Both are now vaccine preventable and because I experienced that horror first-hand and know the dangers those diseases pose, I vaccinate my son against them. You might not worry about VPDs but that doesn't mean they aren't worth worrying about.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by emma1325 View Post

 

A vaccinated child can carry disease just as easily as a vaccine-free child. 

That simply is not true.

Only some diseases can be carried by healthy, asymptomatic children. And then, of those, only some vaxxed children can carry those diseases whereas many more unvaxxed children can carry those diseases.

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#173 of 264 Old 08-19-2012, 04:21 AM
 
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And most kids will develop an extremely mild form of what they have been vacced against right after the vaccination . My DD2 had a few blisters on her after her CP shot , since we knew she had had it , we kept her at home for a few days , until they were dried up and she was fine . And we can also rest assured ., that the vaccine has worked and she has established immunity . 

But she is surely not shedding CP anymore ! 


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finding  accurate vax injury date would be difficult since the drug companies will not admit fault. 

not only that,  but drs deny vaccine injury right to the parent's face.  It happened to me with my son.  

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#175 of 264 Old 08-19-2012, 05:12 AM
 
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Has she come into contact with anyone who has an active case of chicken pox? That is really the only way to tell if she has true immunity from her vaccine. is if she was in contact and didn't get  pox.  Don't be surprised tho, if she comes into contact with pox, and contracts it anyway, or worse, gets shingles.    I have heard so many stories from mothers that his has happened to. 

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Originally Posted by tonttu View Post

And most kids will develop an extremely mild form of what they have been vacced against right after the vaccination . My DD2 had a few blisters on her after her CP shot , since we knew she had had it , we kept her at home for a few days , until they were dried up and she was fine . And we can also rest assured ., that the vaccine has worked and she has established immunity . 

But she is surely not shedding CP anymore ! 

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#176 of 264 Old 08-19-2012, 05:48 AM
 
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Has she come into contact with anyone who has an active case of chicken pox? That is really the only way to tell if she has true immunity from her vaccine. is if she was in contact and didn't get  pox.  Don't be surprised tho, if she comes into contact with pox, and contracts it anyway, or worse, gets shingles.    I have heard so many stories from mothers that his has happened to. 

Here , where I live , most young kids get vacced against CP now , which makes sense , considering how dangerous CP can be .

And there have been a couple of cases , where kids picked them up and their cases were a lot milder than they would have most likely been , if they wouldn´t have had the vacc .

And my daughter didn´t get them at all , even though she was in extremely close contact with somebody at her day care center , who started showing  symptoms the same afternoon

.Quote:
Originally Posted by emmy526 View Post

not only that,  but drs deny vaccine injury right to the parent's face.  It happened to me with my son.  

That is most likely , because most cases of so-called vaccine injury are in fact not related to the vaccine at all !


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#177 of 264 Old 08-19-2012, 06:34 AM
 
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It's important to realise that almost all adults are "not vaccinated" in many "vax preventable diseases" because the long term immunity of vaccines is as short as a few years in some cases. 

 

So while people are getting up in arms about unvaccinated children spreading disease, adults are walking around with as much immunity to some diseases as non vaccinated children. 

 

The original post is yet another way of blaming non-vax parents for outbreaks and instilling fear. Take a look at some of the latest outbreaks that were CAUSED by vaccines. Take a look at the falsification of vaccine proof with Merck - http://www.naturalnews.com/036328_Merck_mumps_vaccine_False_Claims_Act.html

 

It's not a simple black and white situation. 

 

Vax companies are businesses and a lot of businesses play dirty when it comes to big profits. FACT. 

 

To think that somehow the vax industry is different because it *ahem* "Saves Lives" is not seeing the whole picture. 


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#178 of 264 Old 08-19-2012, 06:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonttu View Post

Here , where I live , most young kids get vacced against CP now , which makes sense , considering how dangerous CP can be .

And there have been a couple of cases , where kids picked them up and their cases were a lot milder than they would have most likely been , if they wouldn´t have had the vacc .

 

banghead.gif

 

 

In any event….I took a look at the schedule of vaccines in Scandinavia, and wow!  CP is not on any of them.  I doubt kids are getting vaxxed for CP where you live, unless parents are running out and paying for the vaccine (something I also doubt)

 

http://www.euvac.net/graphics/euvac/vaccination/norway.html

 

 

Emmy526 said:

"not only that,  but drs deny vaccine injury right to the parent's face.  It happened to me with my son."  

 

 
That is most likely , because most cases of so-called vaccine injury are in fact not related to the vaccine at all !

 

That bottom line is breathtakingly insensitive, and I have reported it

 

 


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#179 of 264 Old 08-19-2012, 06:58 AM
 
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No, they cannot carry disease just as easily. They are far less likely to carry disease.

This is just nonsense.

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#180 of 264 Old 08-19-2012, 07:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marsupial-mom View Post

 

As far as my personal experience goes, I have also had measles and chicken pox. Both are now vaccine preventable and because I experienced that horror first-hand and know the dangers those diseases pose, I vaccinate my son against them. You might not worry about VPDs but that doesn't mean they aren't worth worrying about.

 

I too have had measles, and IME it was not a horror. I was sick for a week or so, stayed home from school. The end. All three of my children have had chicken pox (I could never catch it) and that wasn't anywhere close to a horror either. Several vaccinated kids got the cpox when my kids did and most of them actually had a far worse time of it.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by emma1325 View Post

 

A vaccinated child can carry disease just as easily as a vaccine-free child. 

That simply is not true.

Only some diseases can be carried by healthy, asymptomatic children. And then, of those, only some vaxxed children can carry those diseases whereas many more unvaxxed children can carry those diseases.

 

This is absolutely fear-driven nonsense.


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"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

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