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Old 08-19-2012, 08:10 AM
 
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It's important to realise that almost all adults are "not vaccinated" in many "vax preventable diseases" because the long term immunity of vaccines is as short as a few years in some cases. 

 

 

Agreed.

 

Many children are not fully immunized.  This CDC link say 23% of kids in the USA have not had all their immunization.

http://www.cdc.gov/media/pressrel/2008/r080904.htm

 

 

If people are really worried about low vaccine rates causing spikes in disease, harming babies and the immunocompromised, etc, they really need to look at adults and the undervaxxed populations, instead of hyperfocusing on the the small percent of the population who are unvaxxed by choice.

 

They don't want to look at adults because most adults are undervaxxed - and the blame game is no fun when the finger points back at yourself.

 

They do not want to look at undervaxxed children, because that would mean dealing with bigger questions around child poverty and whether things such as universal health care should exist in the USA.

 

If the goal of pro-vaxxers is to increase vaccination, removing barriers to the adult population who want to vaccinate themselves and their children is the way to go.


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Old 08-19-2012, 08:16 AM
 
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Many children are not fully immunized.  This CDC link say 23% of kids in the USA have not had all their immunization.

http://www.cdc.gov/media/pressrel/2008/r080904.htm

 

 

If people are really worried about low vaccine rates causing spikes in disease, harming babies and the immunocompromised, etc, they really need to look at adults and the undervaxxed populations.

 

They don't want to look at adults because most adults are undervaxxed - and the blame game is no fun when the finger points back at yourself.

 

They do not want to look at undervaxxed children, because that would mean dealing with bigger questions around child poverty and whether things such as universal health care should exist.  

 

If the goal of pro-vaxxers is to increase vaccination, removing barriers to the adult population who want to vaccinate themselves and their children is the way to go.

 

I think you are spot on here Kathy. 


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Old 08-19-2012, 09:05 AM
 
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First of all , I live in the middle of Sweden , and in our play group alone , about 90 % of the kids ( I know this b/c we had a discussion about it once ) have in fact been vacced against CP .

It is not automatically done , but parents , such as me , do ask for it and it did not cost me anything Whether they forgot to send me a bill , I don´t know , but that is the fact here !

And since I live in Sweden , where we have universal health care , we don´t have the problem with many adults not getting their vacc boosters , since it is free , it was the same in Germany ( my birth place ) and in Finland , where I lived , before I moved here .

And while I don´t have many good things to say about Finland otherwise , they have health care for everybody and a traumatic delivery with a difficult pregnancy beforehand , that involved many , many check-ups and a long hospital stay for me as well as baby  cost me roughly about the equivalent of 100 US Dollars ( altogether )

So maybe the big problem in the US is , that you have a failing system , that does not provide for its people , and we know it can work , since it has in Europe for decades now .

And before you say , that doctors have a financial incentive to vacc because of the money they get from pharmaceutical companies , that is not true in Sweden , since we have no private docs here , they are employed by the hospital and get a salary , so they could really care less about a pharma company .
 


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Old 08-19-2012, 10:11 AM
 
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Vaccines don't make you healthy

 

 

 

 

 

Vaccines as cluster bombs

 

 

 

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Vaccines do not, as claimed, “improve immunity.” Even the most rudimentary understanding of what the immune system does would make that obvious.  Vaccines jump the immune system to deliver foreign matter that could never have gotten past it otherwise.  This is foreign matter that the immune system is left helplessly unable to rid itself of.  Foreign matter is lodged permanently in the body, leaving it no longer perfect but broken, impaired.  Bodily integrity is literally destroyed.

 

 

 

 

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Old 08-19-2012, 10:54 AM
 
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 because most cases of so-called vaccine injury are in fact not related to the vaccine at all !

i'd love to see your data on this. could you please provide a link?


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Old 08-19-2012, 12:06 PM
 
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i'd love to see your data on this. could you please provide a link?


I´d rather see the data , that proves , that they are !


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Old 08-19-2012, 12:14 PM
 
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I´d rather see the data , that proves , that they are !

In a debate you can't just state something and say "prove me wrong". The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. You. If you cant, don't use the statement in the debate.

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Old 08-19-2012, 12:18 PM
 
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Old 08-19-2012, 12:26 PM
 
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I´d rather see the data , that proves , that they are !

And you've already stated, in another thread, that court cases proving harm done by vaccine don't work for you, correct?


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Old 08-19-2012, 12:36 PM
 
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Well , if you can read german , I can look up a few links !

Plus , I did not initially make those claims , others here have stated , that their kids had vaccine damage and that they were being compensated , so I am sure , it is easy for them to show the facts about that !
 


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Old 08-19-2012, 12:46 PM
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Vaccination is not some conspiracy that every country on earth just happens to buy into. It has eradicated small pox, nearly eradicated polio, rubella, tetanus, and diptheria. 

 

"It has eradicated small pox, nearly eradicated polio, rubella, tetanus, and diptheria."

 

Lets look at polio. There now exists MANY types of polio. The wild polio virus still exists and does the same types of damage as it did 50 years ago. These diseases resulting from the wild polio virus have just been renamed. But now we also have the "polio vaccine". 100 million people and counting have been infected with the SV-40 cancer causing virus thanks to the wonderful "polio vaccine". If EVERYONE had NOT "vaccinated" with the "polio vaccine" disaster the WORLD would be far better off.

 

"Polio has not been eradicated by vaccination, it is lurking behind a redefinition and new diagnostic names like viral or aseptic meningitis. When the first, injectible polio vaccine was tested on some 1.8 million children in the United States in 1954, within 9 days there was huge epidemic of paralytic polio in the vaccinated and some of their parents and other contacts. The US Surgeon General discontinued the trial for 2 weeks."  Doctor Viera Scheibner PhD

 

"SV-40 is the genetic glue which permits different DNAs to recombine to produce mutations and anomalies, and which allows toxic substances to penetrate cells more readily. Human blood specimens preserved frozen for 25 years have been found contaminated with this virus. More importantly, wherever SV-40 goes, so goes HIV and other green monkey viruses. The question is, how did these viruses find their way into humans so quickly and uniformly? Dr. Snead found the answer in 1987, and the Baylor study did so in 1999. According to sources cited by Dr. Snead, cells from the African green monkey have been used since 1953 as a growth medium for the polio vaccine.”   Cancer, Aids, and Vaccinations

 

"The SV 40 virus causes malignancies. It has now been identified in 43 % of cases of non-Hodgkin lymphoma[10] , 36 % of brain tumors[11] , 18 % of healthy blood samples, and 22 % of healthy semen samples, mesothiolomas and other malignancies. By the time of this discovery SV 40 had already been injected into 10,000,000 people in Salk vaccine. Gastric digestion inactivates some of SV 40 in Sabin vaccine. However, the isolation of strains of Sabin polio vaccine from all 38 cases of Guillan Barre Syndrome[12] GBS in Brazil suggests that significant numbers of persons are able to be infected from this vaccine. All 38 of these patients had received Sabin polio vaccine months to years before the onset of GBS. The incidence of non-Hodgkin lymphoma has ”mysteriously” doubled since the 1970s."    Why You Should Avoid Taking Vaccines

 

“A poor diet has also been shown to increase susceptibility to polio [25]. In 1948, during the height of the polio epidemics, Dr. Benjamin Sandler, a nutritional expert at the Oteen Veterans’ Hospital, documented a relationship between polio and an excessive use of sugars and starches. He compiled records showing that countries with the highest per capita consumption of  sugar, such as the United States, Britain, Australia, Canada, and Sweden (with over 100 pounds per person per year) had the greatest incidence of polio [26]. In contrast, polio was practically unheard of in China  (with its sugar use of only 3 pounds per person per year) [26].”   The Polio Vaccine

 

Above we see the answer to disease is NOT "vaccination"; it is KNOWLEDGE and sound health.

 

FORCING your neighbor to "vaccinate" may harm YOUR children.

 

 

 

 

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Old 08-19-2012, 12:55 PM
 
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i'd love to see your data on this. could you please provide a link?


I´d rather see the data , that proves , that they are !

You have been provided with these links by very patient posters ad nauseum.


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Old 08-19-2012, 01:07 PM
 
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Well , if you can read german , I can look up a few links !

Plus , I did not initially make those claims , others here have stated , that their kids had vaccine damage and that they were being compensated , so I am sure , it is easy for them to show the facts about that !
 

They proved their cases in a court of law. But IIRC, you believe they were compensated out of pity. So, that means, according to you, in the US our poor gullible government as shelled out over 2  billion dollars to con artist parents who "played" them.


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Old 08-19-2012, 01:43 PM
 
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You have been provided with these links by very patient posters ad nauseum.


I have yet to see independent research , that conclusively and without financial or other interest shows , that every person with a claim of vaccine damage  actually has it .

By no means am I saying or implying , that VD does not exist .

I know , that people can and do suffer from side effects of medication , which is what a vaccine is after all , but it needs to be seen in relation with the number of people being vaccinated every year and the ones , that really suffer ill effects from it !

But the undisputable fact remains , that thanks to vaccination , we have eradicated smallpox and near eradicated diseases like polio , diphteria and others , that used to claim the lives of thousands of people and only thanks to those achievements can people  say " we choose not to vacc , we´d rather take the chance "

And no matter , what " research " others provide me with , this is a hard fact , that has been proven throughout history


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Old 08-19-2012, 02:01 PM
 
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Many children are not fully immunized. This CDC link say 23% of kids in the USA have not had all their immunization.

http://www.cdc.gov/media/pressrel/2008/r080904.htm

 

If people are really worried about low vaccine rates causing spikes in disease, harming babies and the immunocompromised, etc, they really need to look at adults and the undervaxxed populations, instead of hyperfocusing on the the small percent of the population who are unvaxxed by choice.

 

They don't want to look at adults because most adults are undervaxxed - and the blame game is no fun when the finger points back at yourself.

 

They do not want to look at undervaxxed children, because that would mean dealing with bigger questions around child poverty and whether things such as universal health care should exist in the USA.

 

If the goal of pro-vaxxers is to increase vaccination, removing barriers to the adult population who want to vaccinate themselves and their children is the way to go.

Why would you say that I'm "hyperfocusing" on the unvaxxed by choice? I'm having a conversation here with some parents who choose not the vax but clearly in other parts of my life I am actually vaccinating children who might not be vaccinated otherwise. Foster parent here, remember? The kids who come in my home receive vaccinations that they might not have received otherwise. So please do not accuse me of not caring about children in poverty. Leave the ad hominem attacks out of the discussion, please.

 

In regards to adults, they simply don't spread disease as quickly as children do. They have better hygeine habits, they tend to have larger areas of personal space, and they have built up more natural immunity. Unvaxxed adults are simply less likely to spread disease than unvaxxed children.

 

But I absolutely agree that we ought to "remove barriers to the adult population who want to vaccinate themselves and their children".

 

And that link you posted says this:

"For each group of vaccinated children born during a given year, an estimated 14.3 million cases of vaccine-preventable diseases and 33,500 premature deaths are prevented over the course of a lifetime. In addition, vaccination results in a total savings of $43.3, billion, including $9.9 billion in direct medical costs."

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Old 08-19-2012, 02:04 PM
 
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And no matter , what " research " others provide me with , this is a hard fact , that has been proven throughout history

 

So basically you have no intention of learning anything from these debates, because you discount any research that contradicts your mindset.  Good to know.


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Old 08-19-2012, 02:08 PM
 
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So basically you have no intention of learning anything from these debates, because you discount any research that contradicts your mindset.  Good to know.

 

 

Well I'll admit this person is discounting pretty much everything but isn't that pretty normal round here?

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Old 08-19-2012, 03:34 PM
 
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In regards to adults, they simply don't spread disease as quickly as children do. They have better hygeine habits, they tend to have larger areas of personal space, and they have built up more natural immunity. Unvaxxed adults are simply less likely to spread disease than unvaxxed children.

 

But I absolutely agree that we ought to "remove barriers to the adult population who want to vaccinate themselves and their children".

 

And that link you posted says this:

"For each group of vaccinated children born during a given year, an estimated 14.3 million cases of vaccine-preventable diseases and 33,500 premature deaths are prevented over the course of a lifetime. In addition, vaccination results in a total savings of $43.3, billion, including $9.9 billion in direct medical costs."


That is exactly the point , I am trying to make !

Yes , there are many adults ,  that are not doing boosters of vacines , they have received as children , but in an adult´s case , it is not really THAT huge of a deal , but children are so much more vulnerable

I personally would never get the flu shot , I see no benefit in it whatsoever , but there are people who do and they are happy with their decision , I am simply not one of them , especially after the research I have done on the matter !

Instead of focusing on a small group of people , that may encounter adverse reactions to vaccines , let´s focus on the huge number of people , that don´t and give them a chance to protect themselves and their kids by giving them access to health care !

Anybody , who wants to know , how that will work , simply needs to look at Europe , where we have successfully practized this for decades .


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Old 08-19-2012, 03:42 PM
 
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So maybe the big problem in the US is , that you have a failing system , that does not provide for its people , and we know it can work , since it has in Europe for decades now .

And before you say , that doctors have a financial incentive to vacc because of the money they get from pharmaceutical companies , that is not true in Sweden , since we have no private docs here , they are employed by the hospital and get a salary , so they could really care less about a pharma company .

the US is sooooooooo vastly different in many health respects that I see little comparison to what you have -it thrives on $$$$, we don't mandate sick days nor insurance (as of yet!!) for all, so even a simple cold can kill someone here with no means of access

-I do have insurance and it will not pay for a visit, will not pay for a titer test (only certain ones and only if I am pregnant) it will not pay for vaccines at all- and I have what is considered good insurance

 

 

 

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Old 08-19-2012, 03:53 PM
 
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But that is horrible , I lived in the US for several years and while I was lucky to have military insurance through my late husband , I´ve seen many people ( hardworking people ) , struggle .

And that is an awful thing , if you have to choose between paying your rent or your kids´medical bills .

I really feel blessed to live here , I can have unpaid maternity leave for as long as I basically want to and it costs absolutely nothing for my kids to go to the doctor or dentist .  And I pay about 10 US Dollars for the initial visit at the health center and then the next 3 months it costs nothing anymore , I only have to pay 75 % of the prize of prescription drugs , but once your whole family together goes over 600 US Dollars a year , the rest of the medication is free

And I could go on and on about it , we get money from the government for each kid every month , regardless of income , education is free , ...

Well , I don´t want to write a whole book now , but you get the point ....
 


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Old 08-19-2012, 04:31 PM
 
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Well I'll admit this person is discounting pretty much everything but isn't that pretty normal round here?

 

It is one thing to believe that the benefits outweigh the risk, but quite another entirely to deny that there are any risks despite copious evidence to the contrary.  To dismiss everything the opposing side posts summarily and insult those who believe differently, over and over again, is over the top.  I'm not sure what "normal round here" is supposed to mean - it's a forum with much debate.  Isn't that the case where most divisive issues are concerned?


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Old 08-19-2012, 04:56 PM
 
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It is one thing to believe that the benefits outweigh the risk, but quite another entirely to deny that there are any risks despite copious evidence to the contrary.  To dismiss everything the opposing side posts summarily and insult those who believe differently, over and over again, is over the top.  I'm not sure what "normal round here" is supposed to mean - it's a forum with much debate.  Isn't that the case where most divisive issues are concerned?

Then PLEASE , stop denying all the clear evidence out there , that speaks in favor of vaccines ! 

We all know , that there are some risks involved , but let´s stop blowing things out of proportion , for God´s sake and stop insulting those of us , who are trying to make an informed choice for our kids and ourselves . 


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Old 08-19-2012, 05:02 PM
 
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Then PLEASE , stop denying all the clear evidence out there , that speaks in favor of vaccines ! 

We all know , that there are some risks involved , but let´s stop blowing things out of proportion , for God´s sake and stop insulting those of us , who are trying to make an informed choice for our kids and ourselves . 

 

Where did I insult anyone who tries to make an informed choice?  I made an informed choice for my kids and myself and you don't accept that is good enough.  I watched my child have a vaccine reaction that you believe I made up in my head.  

 

I am not interested in discussing this further with someone who is not interested in learning more about the known and documented risks and disadvantages to vaccinating and does not respect a different belief from your own.


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Old 08-19-2012, 05:16 PM
 
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Where did I insult anyone who tries to make an informed choice?  

In every single thread , where people discussed the pro versus the cons of vaccination ! 

And I never said , you made your kid´s vaccine reaction up in your head , but I am also not letting somebody , who doesn´t even know me , say , that I don´t know what I am talking about 

I had a cousin ( who also happened to be my best friend ) , who died from measles , because his ignorant mother believed , that you don´t have to vaccinate against a " harmless " childhood disease and almost lost my oldest daughter to equally " harmless " CP , when she was 7 months old . 

So , sorry if you or any anti-vaccers on here find that offensive , but nothing will ever convince me , that risks outweigh the benefits when it comes VPD  and yes , there may be a few kids , that have adverse reactions , but there are thousands , who don´t and whose lives are saved because of vaccines 


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Old 08-19-2012, 05:35 PM
 
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In every single thread , where people discussed the pro versus the cons of vaccination ! 

And I never said , you made your kid´s vaccine reaction up in your head , but I am also not letting somebody , who doesn´t even know me , say , that I don´t know what I am talking about 

I had a cousin ( who also happened to be my best friend ) , who died from measles , because his ignorant mother believed , that you don´t have to vaccinate against a " harmless " childhood disease and almost lost my oldest daughter to equally " harmless " CP , when she was 7 months old . 

So , sorry if you or any anti-vaccers on here find that offensive , but nothing will ever convince me , that risks outweigh the benefits when it comes VPD  and yes , there may be a few kids , that have adverse reactions , but there are thousands , who don´t and whose lives are saved because of vaccines 

 

There is simply no way to make an accurate risk benefit analysis since the official vaccine reporting system is so highly flawed.  So your position is based largely on emotions and assumptions.  There is also no way to know if your cousin would have died from the measles vaccine (a possible side effect), or if your 7 month old would have had an equally scary experience with the chicken pox vaccine (when she got it at/after 12 months).  Since there's no reliable data on how the current vaccine schedule which utilizes several vaccines in combination affects the immune system, it is also possible that previous vaccine damage to the immune system weakened your cousin's and child's defenses to the diseases they contracted.

 

How old was your cousin who died from measles?  Was this a healthy individual with no other health concerns?  Did her "ignorant" mother vaccinate for other diseases?


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Old 08-19-2012, 07:20 PM
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But the undisputable fact remains , that thanks to vaccination , we have eradicated smallpox and near eradicated diseases like polio , diphteria and others , that used to claim the lives of thousands of people

 

This is pure myth.

 

Almost ALL the decrease in childhood disease occurred BEFORE the introduction of "vaccination"

 

http://genesgreenbook.com/resources/obamsawin/ImmunizationGraphs-RO2009.pdf

 

 

 

http://www.naturalnews.com/SpecialReports/VaccinesFullStory/v1/VaccineReport-EN.pdf

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Old 08-19-2012, 07:55 PM
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There is simply no way to make an accurate risk benefit analysis since the official vaccine reporting system is so highly flawed. 

 

Bingo!

 

Many doctors will not report "vaccine" reactions. The CDC knows this and could provide a decent system. The CDC will not because they know the risks of "vaccination" VASTLY exceed the gain.

 

But it may not matter, MANY parents are figuring it out themselves and VASTLY restricting "vaccination". As this knowledge gets passed among the sisterhood the drive for forced "vaccination" grows.

 

IMO the straw that broke the camels back was the extremely toxic and extremely profitable "HPV vaccination". So many girls have been killed and seriously harmed for NO proven benefit it woke up LOTS of parents. This may have started what I have been praying for for a LONG time, a critical examination of the practice of "vaccination" by the women having the "vaccine" toxins injected into their flesh and blood.

 

“Two years ago, Dr. Diane Harper, one of the lead researchers for Gardasil blew the whistle on the vaccine, saying that girls and their parents need to receive more complete information before accepting the inoculation. Dr. Harper, who participated in the Phase 2 and 3 trials to get Gardasil approved and authored several papers on it, raised serious questions about the vaccine's risks-benefit profile.  And, according to Dr. Harper, the available data suggests the vaccine's protective effects do not last beyond five years.”    The Silent Plan to Poison Your Child

 

"Doctor Diane Harper, lead researcher in the development of two human papilloma virus vaccines, Gardasil and Cervarix, said the controversial drugs will do little to reduce cervical cancer rates and, even though they’re being recommended for girls as young as nine, there have been no efficacy trials in children under the age of 15."  Note when asked why she was coming forward with this startling information Doctor Harper stated "I have to be able to sleep with myself"

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Old 08-19-2012, 07:58 PM
 
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nm

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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Old 08-19-2012, 08:06 PM
 
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In regards to adults, they simply don't spread disease as quickly as children do. They have better hygeine habits, they tend to have larger areas of personal space, and they have built up more natural immunity. Unvaxxed adults are simply less likely to spread disease than unvaxxed children.

 

 

Nonsense.

 

sure is and this goes back to the US policies for general health- most public schools will send home students that are sick-most businesses (where the adults are) will not-most adults no longer get sick days-you can try all you want to be healthy but the cube next to you is still going to stay hacking away and many have several jobs and many are part time with no paid leave

 

our whole system need help, better access to medical and food, not to mention real basic need care (paid work leaves, etc) 


 

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Old 08-19-2012, 08:19 PM
 
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sure is and this goes back to the US policies for general health- most public schools will send home students that are sick-most businesses (where the adults are) will not-most adults no longer get sick days-you can try all you want to be healthy by the cube next to you is still going to stay hacking away and many have several jobs and many are part time with no paid leave

 

our whole system need help, better access to medical and food, not to mention real basic need care (paid work leaves, etc) 

Lol - you got me before I decided I was being redundant and erased (the nm above)

 

Here is an article that shows just how few adults are up to date on their vaccines:

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/adults-vaccinations/story?id=9762539#.UDGcS46RB7E

 

"Among all adults, the investigators also found extremely low rates of immunization against tetanus, diphtheria, and pertussis (2.1 percent), shingles (less than 2 percent), human papillomavirus (10 percent), and seasonal influenza (36.1 percent)."

 

And yes, people go to work sick.  It happens all.the.time.

 

I don't agree with the social responsibility argument, but I can see where they are coming from.

 

It completely falls down, however, if your own adult boosters are not up to date - then you are just a big old hypocrit who likes to point fingers and deny your own culpability.


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

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