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#1 of 264 Old 08-14-2012, 08:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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For those of you considering not vaccinating: this is not just a personal choice that affects your children only. It has ramifications for the entire community, especially those vulnerable people with poor immune systems that cannot be vaccinated themselves and who are at risk of dying from vaccine preventable diseases.

Vaccination is not some conspiracy that every country on earth just happens to buy into. It has eradicated small pox, nearly eradicated polio, rubella, tetanus, and diptheria.  But thanks to non-vaccinators,  measles and mumps, once rare, are now returning in regular epidemics in developed countries.

By all means, elect not to use an HPV vaccine (Gaurdasil), if your daughter gets cervical cancer thats not a public health probem. But for the other vaccinations its not just a personal choice - you are underminig the health of your entire community. Thanks alot!

 

-Outraged mother

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#2 of 264 Old 08-14-2012, 09:26 PM
 
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I've never heard anyone put it that way. That's a lot to consider. Thank you.

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#3 of 264 Old 08-14-2012, 09:27 PM
 
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For those of you considering not vaccinating: this is not just a personal choice that affects your children only. It has ramifications for the entire community, especially those vulnerable people with poor immune systems that cannot be vaccinated themselves and who are at risk of dying from vaccine preventable diseases.

Vaccination is not some conspiracy that every country on earth just happens to buy into. It has eradicated small pox, nearly eradicated polio, rubella, tetanus, and diptheria.  But thanks to non-vaccinators,  measles and mumps, once rare, are now returning in regular epidemics in developed countries.

By all means, elect not to use an HPV vaccine (Gaurdasil), if your daughter gets cervical cancer thats not a public health probem. But for the other vaccinations its not just a personal choice - you are underminig the health of your entire community. Thanks alot!

 

-Outraged mother


You are oversimplifying a very complicated matter.  Consider these facts, and if you don't believe them, feel free to research them more deeply:

 

1) Vaccinated children can still catch and transmit disease...this is because vaccines do not always induce immunity.  Vaccines have varying levels of efficacy depending on several factors, including the specific vaccine being given and the individual receiving the vaccine. 

 

2) Vaccine-free children can develop immunity to disease without vaccines.  It's called having a fully functioning immune system.

 

3) The only dependable way to determine which children are non-immune (whether vaccinated or not) is to test their titers (blood test).  If we were to test all children, some will be immune, some will not, and it would not necessarily coincide with vaccination status.

 

4) Certain vaccines cause shedding, which means the vaccinated individual can spread the disease he/she was just vaccinated for (an obvious risk to vulnerable people)

 

5) Diseases declined because our standards of living dramatically improved...we have better sanitation, nutrition, etc.  Vaccines came in after the decline began, and took all the credit.  We give them all the credit because vaccine companies conducted a very aggressive marketing campaign.  All the vaccines in the world cannot save an area which has poor sanitation and nutrition.


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#4 of 264 Old 08-14-2012, 09:28 PM
 
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I've never heard anyone put it that way. That's a lot to consider. Thank you.


lol.  :)

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#5 of 264 Old 08-14-2012, 09:34 PM
 
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I've never heard anyone put it that way. That's a lot to consider. Thank you.
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#6 of 264 Old 08-15-2012, 04:23 AM
 
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This topic is not appropriate for the INV forum. The forum guidelines clearly state that
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This forum was created to serve the needs of members who have made the decision not to vaccinate or are seriously exploring making this decision. It is not a place to denigrate or criticize those who do vaccinate.
I will move this thread to the main Vax forum where you will definitely get a lot of healthy debate and helpful information.

Oh, and welcome to MDC!!! Mothering absolutely supports personal choice on this matter, though of course impact to the community at large is an issue that both vaxers and nonvaxers have examined. I think you'll find a lot of information here if you peek around other active and archived threads.

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#7 of 264 Old 08-15-2012, 04:44 AM - Thread Starter
 
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To reply to your arguments
1) yes, no vaccine is a100% effective at preventing a disease, but it does markedly reduce the chance of an individual catching that disease.

2) A good immune system again means you may be able to fight off some diseases, but if you are exposed to a highly virulent disease at a high dose, no amount of innate immunity will protect you. Certain diseases like measles are so infectious that nearly everyone (unvaccinated) gets it. To be protected you need to have a specific immune response to that disease which you can either get from having had disease previously or getting vaccinated. Also a good immune system is not something we all have, what about cancer patients or little babies?

3) You are partially correct here, but vaccinated people are more likely to have protective titres than the unvaccinated, unless the unvaccinated persons actually had that infection in the past. Those are the only ways to get a specific protective immune response to a disease, either go through the natural infection or get vaccinated.

4) yes certain vaccines are live attenuated viruses, like measles, mumps & chicken pox. However the word attenuated is crucial, it means the virus has been altered so it is no longer dangerous but still retains its ability to provoke a protective immune response. So although vaccinated people may shed the vaccine strain virus for a short period of time this strain isn't capable of causing disease.

5) again you are mostly correct in your points about living conditions being crucial in the decline of infectious diseases. However, vaccines also deserve credit for dramatically lowering the incidence of certain diseases. Do you really think sanitation alone would have eliminated smallpox or nearly eradicated polio? Vaccines also play a big role in improving the lives of the poorest on earth who sadly still live in these conditions, that's why many humanitarian organizations invest alot of effort into making vaccines available to these very people.
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#8 of 264 Old 08-15-2012, 06:20 AM
 
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You did not discuss side effects from vaccines.  I suggest you get a hold of the CDC pink book at look at the baseline side effects from vaccines.  I also suggest (highly) that you go through the reams of links on MDC for further insight into vaccine reactions.

 

I don't feel like writing a book, so I am not going to.  Suffice to say there are a number of vaccine I feel are unnecessary, and many have risks I feel are too high.  I believe the risks of vaccines usually outweigh the benefits.  

 

Would you give something to your children you felt was unsafe?  I hope not!  Most non-vaxxers feel vaccines are somewhat unsafe.

 

Also, and OP, this is not directed at you - but at society as a whole.  I don't care if you call non-vaxxers selfish.  Really, is that all you've got?  I can live with a stranger on the internet thinking I am selfish.  I can assure you my children, family, and community I live in (where I donate both time and money) do not think I am selfish. In the matter of my children's health, the person I am most accountable to is my children.  


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#9 of 264 Old 08-15-2012, 06:31 AM
 
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I care more about the health of my own children then your children, period. 

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#10 of 264 Old 08-15-2012, 06:53 AM
 
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Here's the thing. I only have a responsibility to my own kids. I am not responsible for yours or.anyone else.
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#11 of 264 Old 08-15-2012, 07:01 AM
 
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Here's the thing. I only have a responsibility to my own kids. I am not responsible for yours or.anyone else.

 me too! thumb.gif

 

funny somehow civilization has been able to survive prior to vaccines and even with vaccines it does come down to the fittest in the end

 

given the number one cause of children's death I fail to see how constantly throwing it at non-vaccers does anyone one good yet it seems always to be the go to issue and not looking at the bigger picture of survival - must make some feel like they can just bash and somehow other must fall suite and that ends it all dizzy.gif

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#12 of 264 Old 08-15-2012, 07:25 AM
 
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#4... read more about smallpox and the havock being in close quarters with a person recently vaxxed can cause, especially for anyone with eczema. 

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#13 of 264 Old 08-15-2012, 09:12 AM
 
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Here's the thing. I only have a responsibility to my own kids. I am not responsible for yours or.anyone else.
I disagree.

Choosing not to vax is your choice. But you have a responsibility to refrain from exposing unvaxed kids to newborns or kids with compromised immune systems. You have a responsibility to the community to make sure other moms know you don't vaccinate.

And we all have a responsibility to keep sick kids away from others to prevent the spread of disease!
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#14 of 264 Old 08-15-2012, 09:28 AM
 
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I disagree.
Choosing not to vax is your choice. But you have a responsibility to refrain from exposing unvaxed kids to newborns or kids with compromised immune systems. You have a responsibility to the community to make sure other moms know you don't vaccinate.
And we all have a responsibility to keep sick kids away from others to prevent the spread of disease!

I disagree. That's fine if you feel that way but my kids are healthy. They are not disease ridden time bombs. I would never tell other moms my kids are unvaxed unless they specifically ask. My kids do play groups, story times, etc all the time. Now if they are sick I would keep them home but to be honest..they are never sick.

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#15 of 264 Old 08-15-2012, 09:49 AM
 
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 But you have a responsibility to refrain from exposing unvaxed kids to newborns or kids with compromised immune systems. You have a responsibility to the community to make sure other moms know you don't vaccinate.
And we all have a responsibility to keep sick kids away from others to prevent the spread of disease!

 

I have a responsabilty to refrain from bringing a sick kid out in public, and that responsibility is extra important around infants and those with compromised immune systems (ex:  I might bring a child with a cold out in public; I would not bring a child with a cold to the house of someone who has an infant or is immune compromised)

 

Vax status does not come into it  (real epidemics aside).  It come down to if the child is sick or not.


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#16 of 264 Old 08-15-2012, 10:30 AM
 
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Yes this. 

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I have a responsabilty to refrain from bringing a sick kid out in public, and that responsibility is extra important around infants and those with compromised immune systems (ex:  I might bring a child with a cold out in public; I would not bring a child with a cold to the house of someone who has an infant or is immune compromised)

 

Vax status does not come into it  (real epidemics side).  It come down to if the child is sick or not.


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#17 of 264 Old 08-15-2012, 10:42 AM
 
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I disagree.
Choosing not to vax is your choice. But you have a responsibility to refrain from exposing unvaxed kids to newborns or kids with compromised immune systems. You have a responsibility to the community to make sure other moms know you don't vaccinate.
 

 

I don't have to refrain from exposing my unvaxed kids to anyone, any more than an elderly person who has only had the smallpox vaccine and maybe the polio vax should stay away from such populations.  Not being vaccinated does not equal being a disease vector.  It's just not that simple.

 

Do you tell other parents when your children have been recently vaccinated?  Do you keep them out of public when they could be shedding from a live virus vaccine like chickenpox or MMR?  Most don't, and that's a more likely risk than a healthy unvaccinated individual.

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#18 of 264 Old 08-15-2012, 10:53 AM
 
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My main concern this winter is keeping my kids hands washed after being around kids who I know have a poor diet/hygiene habits and get sick frequently (and are brought in public when sick).  But you know what I'm not going to do?  Yell at the parents for being irresponsible (even though I think they are to some extent).  Simple things such as that are far more concerning to me than vax status. 

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#19 of 264 Old 08-15-2012, 11:12 AM
 
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I don't have to refrain from exposing my unvaxed kids to anyone, any more than an elderly person who has only had the smallpox vaccine and maybe the polio vax should stay away from such populations.

this tends to be often forgotten-

 

BTW my 95 year old grandmother also never has a flu shot and has no plans on getting on-she lives on her own, no nursing home and is in the public daily (along with lots of others her age)


 

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#20 of 264 Old 08-15-2012, 02:09 PM
 
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My main concern this winter is keeping my kids hands washed after being around kids who I know have a poor diet/hygiene habits and get sick frequently (and are brought in public when sick).  But you know what I'm not going to do?  Yell at the parents for being irresponsible (even though I think they are to some extent).  Simple things such as that are far more concerning to me than vax status. 

I don't worry about this at all. Healthy unvaxed kids have a immune system that hasn't been breached so it works optimally. Coming into contact with "germy" kids probably won't cause illness. JMHO based on my experience as a mom of two older unvaxed kiddos!


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#21 of 264 Old 08-15-2012, 03:05 PM
 
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I disagree.
Choosing not to vax is your choice. But you have a responsibility to refrain from exposing unvaxed kids to newborns or kids with compromised immune systems. You have a responsibility to the community to make sure other moms know you don't vaccinate.
And we all have a responsibility to keep sick kids away from others to prevent the spread of disease

 

No, if other moms want to gather vaccine status info that's on them.  I doubt I'd want to be besties with someone who quizzed me on vax status before a playdate anyways.

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#22 of 264 Old 08-15-2012, 03:10 PM
 
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Oh and OP...  it is a personal choice.  It really, really is.  Even if my reason is "I don't want to and you can't make me".  Hey, I don't even have to give you a reason...cause it's none of your business.

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#23 of 264 Old 08-15-2012, 03:16 PM
 
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I don't worry about this at all. Healthy unvaxed kids have a immune system that hasn't been breached so it works optimally. Coming into contact with "germy" kids probably won't cause illness. JMHO based on my experience as a mom of two older unvaxed kiddos!

Thank you maybe I'll worry a little less this winter :)  Truth be told they didn't get ANY of the fevers/illness's all my friends kids were getting last winter.  But I still worried!


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#24 of 264 Old 08-15-2012, 03:58 PM
 
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I care more about the health of my own children then your children, period. 

 

While I find this sentiment to be beyond comprehension personally, I appreciate your honesty.  Thank you for telling the rest of the world you don't care about their children, or whether your kids get theirs sick or cause them to die of vaccine preventable diseases.  I really do appreciate that you aren't pussyfooting around or hiding behind "no such thing as herd immunity."  Thank you.

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While I find this sentiment to be beyond comprehension personally, I appreciate your honesty.  Thank you for telling the rest of the world you don't care about their children, or whether your kids get theirs sick or cause them to die of vaccine preventable diseases.  I really do appreciate that you aren't pussyfooting around or hiding behind "no such thing as herd immunity."  Thank you.

Yep, I appreciate the honesty.

 

And hey, it's not like we live in a society or anything, right? Survival of the fittest! Screw everyone else! What a beautiful sentiment, gentle mamas.


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#26 of 264 Old 08-15-2012, 04:08 PM
 
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While I find this sentiment to be beyond comprehension personally, I appreciate your honesty.  Thank you for telling the rest of the world you don't care about their children, or whether your kids get theirs sick or cause them to die of vaccine preventable diseases.  I really do appreciate that you aren't pussyfooting around or hiding behind "no such thing as herd immunity."  Thank you.

Huh?  When did I say I don't care about other children??  I said I care MORE about my own children.  Any mother who doesn't I would say is crazy!  But hey, if you want to put words into my mouth go for it...

 

P.S., every child in my community benefits from my choice, my children are healthier than any of my friends kids who vax. 

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#27 of 264 Old 08-15-2012, 04:45 PM
 
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I care more about the health of my own children then your children, period. 

yep. im not going to put my kids at risk to "benefit" others.  Im a mom to my kids and their welfare is priority #1 above all others

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#28 of 264 Old 08-15-2012, 05:01 PM
 
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While I find this sentiment to be beyond comprehension personally, I appreciate your honesty.  Thank you for telling the rest of the world you don't care about their children, or whether your kids get theirs sick or cause them to die of vaccine preventable diseases.  I really do appreciate that you aren't pussyfooting around or hiding behind "no such thing as herd immunity."  Thank you.

Your asking all moms to place your children's welfare above their own children's welfare. What makes your children so entitled?
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#29 of 264 Old 08-15-2012, 05:06 PM
 
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Huh?  When did I say I don't care about other children??  I said I care MORE about my own children.  Any mother who doesn't I would say is crazy!  But hey, if you want to put words into my mouth go for it...

 

P.S., every child in my community benefits from my choice, my children are healthier than any of my friends kids who vax. 

 

 

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Huh?  When did I say I don't care about other children??  I said I care MORE about my own children.  Any mother who doesn't I would say is crazy!  But hey, if you want to put words into my mouth go for it...

 

P.S., every child in my community benefits from my choice, my children are healthier than any of my friends kids who vax. 

 

"Survival of the fittest," as a motto doesn't leave much room for caring about the less fit.  I care about my child, of course, beyond all others... however if I found that she'd passed measles to a newborn baby who then died or was subsequently brain damaged from it, I could never forgive myself.  Perhaps believing that child to be "less fit" makes you moms feel more comfortable about that idea.  

 

The health of your children has little to do with what germs they may be carrying around on any given day.  My fully vaccinated child never gets sick, and meanwhile is contributing toward protecting newborn babies and the immunocompromised, all at once.  It's pretty cool that way.  Although truly I feel like whether kid gets sick a lot or not has more to do with luck than anything else;  I know plenty of 100% breastfed all natural babies who come down with every bug on the block, and others who don't.  That reality doesn't allow us as much back patting though.  

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#30 of 264 Old 08-15-2012, 05:35 PM
 
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I have to concur with you on that...my two UNvaccinated teens are some of the healthiest kids their pedi has seen...he told me so.  

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Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

I don't worry about this at all. Healthy unvaxed kids have a immune system that hasn't been breached so it works optimally. Coming into contact with "germy" kids probably won't cause illness. JMHO based on my experience as a mom of two older unvaxed kiddos!

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