Mandatory flu shot time...what is an RN to do? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 55 Old 09-26-2012, 09:58 AM
 
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To the extent to which this is true, it shouldn't be, so what's your point? Do you actually want healthcare entities to care more about profits than they do about patient care? Do you want your health care providers to be in it for the money, or in it because they want to care for patients? Unless you actually WANT your health care to be first and foremost profit-driven, you aren't really accomplishing anything by sniping at my post. 

 

I want people to wake up and understand how they are being manipulated and harmed by the current medical system.

 

Death by medicine 

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#32 of 55 Old 09-26-2012, 11:05 AM
 
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Fwiw, I have more compassion for those whose employers changed the rules on them after they were hired versus those who are complaining about not being able to apply due to rules they do not like.

i very much agree

 

 

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None-the-less, hospitals here are funded by our taxes, and I imagine many are in the states as well, so it is not just an "employer can do what he wants" scenario. 

 

in many if not most cases, US hospitals are private, for profit enterprises. though I would be interested to see if a broad poll would show a difference in policies between them and the minority city or county funded hospitals.

 

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I don't think anybody gets a free pass on ethics  - making a medical procedure mandatory as a condition of employment is ethically questionable to me.  Moreover, letting smokers and others who have high risk factors for developing the flu work while barring non-vaxxed from working sounds discriminatory to me.

and there are a lot of companies that have started barring hiring of smokers, because it adds to missed work days and health insurance cost, some would say that was discriminatory (not me)  but i think you are right that medical procedures are in a class be themselves.  I guess in this case I'm only ok with it because there are clearly alternatives.  if there comes a day when someone could have spent the time and money to became a nurse and then after the fact found that there was no where in the country they could work because this was law, then yes i would have a big problem with it. and yes i do see the side that says, if i would have a problem then, then i need to start working on it now. a kind of "when the came for them, i said nothing" sort of scenario.

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#33 of 55 Old 09-26-2012, 06:05 PM
 
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This gave me an ironic chuckle. Healthcare is first and foremost about profit.

 

AMEN!

 

To OP, if you are worried about harmful chemicals in your vax you should try a heavy metal cleanse. There are many methods... google is your friend :)

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#34 of 55 Old 09-26-2012, 09:27 PM
 
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I want people to wake up and understand how they are being manipulated and harmed by the current medical system.

 

Death by medicine 

Okay, but this thread is about working in the current medical system. So this isn't really relevant. 

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#35 of 55 Old 09-27-2012, 01:28 AM
 
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I work in a healthcare setting and the vax is not yet mandatory for nurses, but they sure try to make it sound like it is! A LOT of the staff there do not want the vax and decline it, which was a pleasant surprise, I was not expecting that at all. I do not agree that NOT getting a flu vax puts patients at risk. I think getting MRSA in a hospital setting, or getting a common cold from a staff member or another patient can put a patient at risk....there are plenty of transmittable illness that can be potentially transmitted...life is risky.


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#36 of 55 Old 09-27-2012, 05:42 AM
 
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I want people to wake up and understand how they are being manipulated and harmed by the current medical system.

 

Death by medicine 

Okay, but this thread is about working in the current medical system. So this isn't really relevant. 

Right, but you asked, so I answered. 


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#37 of 55 Old 09-27-2012, 01:52 PM
 
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This gave me an ironic chuckle. Healthcare is first and foremost about profit.


This is simply untrue. Less than 20 percent of hospitals are for-profit organizations. The rest are either government-funded, and operate at a loss, or are non-profit and therefore legally unable to make a profit.

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#38 of 55 Old 09-27-2012, 02:38 PM
 
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This gave me an ironic chuckle. Healthcare is first and foremost about profit.


This is simply untrue. Less than 20 percent of hospitals are for-profit organizations. The rest are either government-funded, and operate at a loss, or are non-profit and therefore legally unable to make a profit.

"Not for profit" hospitals are only one small part of healthcare. Welcome to MDC.


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#39 of 55 Old 09-27-2012, 03:04 PM
 
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This is simply untrue. Less than 20 percent of hospitals are for-profit organizations. The rest are either government-funded, and operate at a loss, or are non-profit and therefore legally unable to make a profit.

Hmmm.  I'm pulling up much different data: http://www.aha.org/research/rc/stat-studies/fast-facts.shtml  Welcome to MDC, by the way.


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#40 of 55 Old 09-27-2012, 03:11 PM
 
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Health care is first and foremost about the needs of the patient. Requiring health care workers to either get the flu shot or to wear a mask is an effort taken to protect patients. It has nothing to do with "controlling your body" (and heck, all our employers "control our bodies" in a sense, of requiring us to bring our bodies to a certain place at a certain time and use them to perform certain tasks). In fact, you've been offered two different options for what to do with your body, either get the shot or wear a mask. Sexual harassment/assault is an irrelevant and poor analogy, because it carries no benefit--which is the point rnra was making. (Oh, and that analogy is downright offensive to boot.) Some may find the utility of the flu shot in the general population debatable, but patients in the hospital aren't the general population--they're sick and vulnerable, and a case of flu could be a big deal for many of them. If you don't want to take steps to protect them, you should get a job somewhere else. 

I'd readily agree with you if the flu shot were a cut-and-dry intervention.  It's common sense to do what protects your vulnerable patients.  But this vaccine is such a scientific gray area that hospitals are NOT justified in forcing it unequivocally on their staff:

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100216203146.htm

 

http://www.vancouversun.com/health/Vancouver+researcher+finds+shot+linked+H1N1+illness/7217609/story.html

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/11/does-the-vaccine-matter/307723/


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#41 of 55 Old 09-27-2012, 04:36 PM
 
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Thanks for the welcome!

 

Am I missing something, though? I am looking at the link you sent and it shows 4985 hospitals, 1013 of which are for-profit. That comes to 20%.
 

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#42 of 55 Old 09-27-2012, 04:59 PM
 
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To OP, if you are worried about harmful chemicals in your vax you should try a heavy metal cleanse. There are many methods... google is your friend :)

 

I certainly hope she at least made sure she got a mercury free flu shot. Other than mercury in certain brands, I don't think there are other heavy metals in flu shots.

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#43 of 55 Old 10-04-2012, 01:51 PM
 
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I wish the flu would be the only illness one could contract in a hospital/ medical office. Then a mandatory vaccination might make sense. What about all the other non-VPDs out there? How will health care employers prevent patiens from contracting them from rns/ docs? Would be interesting to know
 


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#44 of 55 Old 10-04-2012, 07:34 PM
 
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I wish the flu would be the only illness one could contract in a hospital/ medical office. Then a mandatory vaccination might make sense. What about all the other non-VPDs out there? How will health care employers prevent patiens from contracting them from rns/ docs? Would be interesting to know
 

 

If there is a communicable disease (such as the flu) and a known way to reduce its occurrence (flu vaccine) then medical systems SHOULD be doing something about it.  Wouldn't it be worse if hospitals ignored the flu shot?  

 

Also, hospitals have MANY, MANY policies and procedures in place in regards to infection control.  Strict handwashing, uniforms, gloves, masks, gowns, etc. help prevent the transmission of disease from clinicians to patients.  Many hospital systems require employees to be tested for diseases such as Hepatitis B, Tuberculosis, and HIV/AIDs.  It's not a perfect system, but it's not a neglected one either.

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#45 of 55 Old 10-04-2012, 07:52 PM
 
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If there is a communicable disease (such as the flu) and a known way to reduce its occurrence (flu vaccine) then medical systems SHOULD be doing something about it.  

 

 

 

That's making two incorrect assumptions.  The flu vaccine does not effectively reduce the occurence of flu, nor its complications, nor its hospitalization rates, and it's certainly not safe.  The US Department of Health and Human Services have admitted and compensated over 40 cases of flu-shot-caused severe autoimmune disorders this year alone.  Children in Australia, Finland, and Sweden have developed narcolepsy--basically, a seizure disorder, that is lifelong--as a result of the flu shot.

 

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 Wouldn't it be worse if hospitals ignored the flu shot?  

 

 

They're ignoring the subgroup of people who have severe adverse effects to flu shots.  It's bad enough to ignore that subgroup when the shot is effective, but when it's been shown, over and over by independent researchers, that the flu shot is ineffective--well, it's amazing what people will buy when subjected to strong enough propaganda.

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#46 of 55 Old 10-05-2012, 04:21 AM
 
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That's making two incorrect assumptions.  The flu vaccine does not effectively reduce the occurence of flu, nor its complications, nor its hospitalization rates, and it's certainly not safe.  

 

The CDC has a website with references which discuss vaccine efficacy and disagrees with your first statement: 

 

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/vaccineeffect.htm

 

They say for example about 2010-2011: 

 

 

 

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Preliminary data for the 2010-2011 influenza season indicate that influenza vaccine effectiveness was about 60% for all age groups combined, and that almost all influenza viruses isolated from study participants were well-matched to the vaccine strains (Unpublished CDC data).

 

An effectiveness of 60% means that vaccinated people were about 1.5 times less likely to catch flu than those vaccinated. Not as good as you might like, but not nothing. 

 

Nothing can be 100% safe of course, but serious reactions to the flu shot have been shown to be very rare (also on CDC website). 


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#47 of 55 Old 10-05-2012, 04:29 AM
 
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Also this - scientific american article about how the best way to prevent flu from being widespread is to innoculate children against it. 

 

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=best-way-fight-flu-inoculate-children


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#48 of 55 Old 10-05-2012, 08:30 AM
 
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This thread is not about *generally* whether the flu vaccine is effective or safe. It is about the specific subject among health-care workers. Can we please not get dragged off on a tangent? There are a million threads that have already covered this ground. 

 

I don't buy the "Well, we can't remedy every source of infection, so why bother with flu shots?" reasoning. If we can't do everything, we might as well do nothing? What kind of logic is that? If we can't be perfect parents, we might as well just ignore our kids. If we can't fix all the earth's environmental problems, we might as well not even bother doing little things like driving less and turning off lights. Etc. None of those make sense either. 

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#49 of 55 Old 10-05-2012, 11:38 AM
 
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The largest nurses union in the USA is opposed to mandatory flu shots for nurses:

 

http://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/entry/largest-national-nurses-union-opposes-mandatory-flu-vaccination


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#50 of 55 Old 10-05-2012, 08:12 PM
 
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Interesting link, thanks. This policy does bother me. I do think that health-care workers who work with at-risk patients and don't have some personal health issue with the vaccine (so, most of them) should get their flu shots. I think it's the right thing to do. But I'm not a fan of the organization forcing it on them. I do get my flu shot every year but it would bother me if my employer insisted I HAD to get it. I feel kind of the same way as I feel about vaccine exemptions for children--even though I don't agree with the reasons a lot of people have for not getting vaccinated, I'm uncomfortable with the idea of a larger entity mandating vaccinations. I do think vaccines are important but I don't think one individual getting vaccinated or not is a big enough deal in the grand scheme of things to bring the force of denying people personal choices to bear. If some personal choice is going to be restricted for the greater good, vaccination isn't a big enough cause for me to support that.

 

Heck, I'm not a fan of my HOA telling me I can't grow vegetables in my front yard, even though I don't even necessarily want to, because I don't think it's any of their business, and I don't think it's ultimately my employer's business to tell me that I have to get vaccinated either. 

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#51 of 55 Old 11-12-2012, 10:32 PM
 
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I think you have to do what you feel is best for you. Do you feel that this is something to make a stand about or to just submit. I hope more people find the courage to stand firm against their views but its hard when you have bills and a family. They've essentially got you.

Personally I think its a form of bullying. The medical field hopes to ostracize those who don't take the flu shot. I work in the health field and just recently they are wanting all the people who didn't get flu shots to wear mask as a precaution. I do not receive the flu shot for many reason. One I am a vegan and second after much research I find there is not valid and real data proving that the flu shot works or that I am more contagious if I don't get the flu shot. The CDC and the FDA have allegiance to pharmaceutical companies that donate millions to them...not the american people. Most of the data they give in inflated or just out right not true.

I'm just going to throw out some quotes, maybe it will help others in the health field to find the strength to stand up for what they believe. What is a person to do when you are out numbered?

"There is no evidence that any influenza vaccine thus far developed is effective in preventing or mitigating any attack of influenza. The producers of these vaccines know that they are worthless, but they go on selling them anyway." - Dr. J. Anthony Morris (formerly Chief Vaccine Control Officer at the US Federal Drug Admin.)

"Official data shows that large scale vaccination has failed to obtain any significant improvement of the diseases against which they were supposed to provide protection" - Dr. Sabin, developer of Polio vaccine.

"The only safe vaccine is a vaccine that is never used" -- Dr. James A. Shannon, National Institutes of Health"

"Our children face the possibility of death or serious long-term adverse effects from mandated vaccines that aren't necessary or that have very limited benefits" --Jane M. Orient, MD, AAPS (Association of American Physicians and Surgeons) Executive Director."

"If we choose not to have the flu vaccine administered either to ourselves or our children, we become increasingly subject to a medical, public health, and media trifecta that vilifies and condemns us as ignorant and dangerous. Dr. Charles B. Simone (see Dr.Simone.com). Dr. Simone is a National Cancer Institute trained medical and radiation oncologist and immunologist."

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#52 of 55 Old 11-16-2012, 10:50 AM
 
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I'm in the same boat.  I've never had a flu shot.  I don't believe in them.   I've been with my company for 8 years and I've been able to decline it.  This year it is mandatory.  I could wear the mask, but I just feel like that's miserable and uncomfortable and not very practical.  I think I'll probably reluctantly take the shot.  

Same here.  So torn up about it...and unsure of whether to choose flu-mist versus injection.

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#53 of 55 Old 11-16-2012, 10:54 AM
 
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I tried to place myself in a patient shoes…..

 

Would I be annoyed in I were in the hospital and my nurse did not have her flu shot?

 

Truthfully - no - how could I be when I do not take the flu shot myself?  She is still a person who has a right to decide if the risks of the flu shot are worth it to her.

 

I would be annoyed as hell if she came to work sick, though!  I have seen sick nurses at work.  

 

I know sometimes people are contagious before they show symptoms, but that is true of everyone. It is a risk of living.

 

I would not mind nurses having to wear a mask in flu season.  Certainly the unvaxxed, but perhaps the vaxxed as well if the flu is whipping through the hospital.   The flu vaccine is not even close to 100% effective.

 

There are numerous ways to stay healthy and prevent the spread of infection - sleep well, eat well, mild or moderate use of alcohol only, do not smoke, avoid stress., etc. People who lead a healthy lifestyle can get unlucky and catch stuff, but they are less likely to. Personally, I would prefer to have a person who took care of themselves and was unvaxxed standing in front of me  than a cigarette smoking, twinkie-diet vaxxed person, yet no one would think of excluding nurses from being hired based on sleep, eat and drink habits.

 

Here is an article that discusses that smokers are far more likely to get the flu than non-smokers.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_tobacco

The stuff on the flu and smoking is under a heading 3/4 of the way down.

 

 

"The effect of cigarette smoking upon epidemic influenza was studied prospectively among 1,811 male college students. Clinical influenza incidence among those who daily smoked 21 or more cigarettes was 21% higher than that of non-smokers. Influenza incidence among smokers of 1 to 20 cigarettes daily was intermediate between non-smokers and heavy cigarette smokers.[102]"

 

 

Shall health care professional who smoke not be hired - or have to wear masks?  I would hope anyone arguing for mandatory flu vaccines for hcp would say yes, otherwise I smell some hypocrisy.

Exactly.

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#54 of 55 Old 11-16-2012, 11:25 AM
 
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The part about the mandatory flu shot policy that bothers me most is that the evidence is so poor that vaccinating people with similar health characteristics as me actually protects patients.   That's merely an assumption.  Show me the study that proves that link, who funded the study, and how it applies to me...and well, maybe then I'll get the flu vaccine.

 

The way we protect patients is through proper infection control precautions (eg handwashing, etc....) and staying home when you have a contagious illness.  In my 10 years of working in healthcare I have never received the flu vaccine and only ONCE have I had the flu (and I happened to be 35 weeks pregnant and it occurred during the year that the vaccine was really ineffective anyway - missed the strain).  So if I had gotten the flu shot annually, the only effect it could have had would be to keep my health status THE SAME OR WORSEN IT.  

 

So when I rarely get the flu anyway, how is a flu shot to make me any safer?  Even if I were incubating (and not yet showing symptoms), I don't sneeze and cough on people...and I wash my hands obsessively at work!  If I did develop sneezing (I get allergic sneezes sometimes), I would put on a mask.  So....REALLY, what are the chances I will give a patient the flu?  I bet it's far less than that patient getting it from the visitor who touches the elevator button and then forgets to wash their hands (or assumes that because they used hand sanitizer at the hospital entrance they are already safe...).  

 

I really have issue with one size fits all policy that is grounded in research that is void of specificity validity.  And then for me to be labelled as somehow posing a risk to patients?  Bah.

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#55 of 55 Old 11-17-2012, 08:37 PM
 
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Shame on our profession for this!!!  For those that do not get the flu shot only about 5 to 11 % end up getting the flu anyway.  And, those that have H1N1, etc are in isolation anyway.  I think this is a shame and so unprofessional!! Some of you are so right.  There are many excellent nurses in our nation that will be publicly flogged and shunned because they may have an allergy to eggs, a horrible reaction to the flu shot or some other medical condition that makes it impossible to get the flu shot.  Not to mention religious reasons which should not be diminished either.  This is totally ridiculous.  And bah about how "it is our responsibility to our patients." What a load of propaganda from the Government and smart nurses and administrators have bought into this load of C______!!!  Fools I say; and you will turn away more very qualified nurses!!!  What is wrong with this picture??  Over the stupid flu shot - and making RNs work in the laundry room to shame them?  Really??????  I am almost done with this joke of a professionless profession.

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