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#1 of 43 Old 09-24-2012, 05:56 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Not sure if this got posted here yet. An article from late August in the New York times about the success of the varicella vaccine in significantly reducing the rates of chicken pox in children in the US. I know it's not often dangerous, but I'm still glad to see such a massive reduction in children being sick. 

 

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/20/chickenpox-down-80-percent-since-2000/


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#2 of 43 Old 09-24-2012, 08:02 AM
 
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What about the rise in shingles that has occurred? 


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#3 of 43 Old 09-24-2012, 06:22 PM
 
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Not sure if this got posted here yet. An article from late August in the New York times about the success of the varicella vaccine in significantly reducing the rates of chicken pox in children in the US. I know it's not often dangerous, but I'm still glad to see such a massive reduction in children being sick. 

 

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/20/chickenpox-down-80-percent-since-2000/

 

On the surface, less sick kids sounds great.  The concerns I have personally with the vaccine are:

 

1) It does not induce life long immunity, leaving vaccinated individuals at risk for catching it later in life, when it is more dangerous.

 

2) It is manufactured using aborted human fetal cell lines, which has never been studied for safety.

 

3) It leaves the adult population more susceptible to shingles.

 

4) The safety profile of the vaccine is unknown, since VAERS is so highly flawed.


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#4 of 43 Old 09-24-2012, 07:57 PM
 
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Not only does #1 scare me: no lifelong immunity..so how many times do our kids need to take the vaccine to maintain immunity? I would argue no one knows right now..Partly because #2, we don't really know the safety of this vaccine...it just has not been out long enough to give us the data to find out. This scares me. I'd really want my kids to get the pox when they are young so they can more easily get through it...


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#5 of 43 Old 09-25-2012, 05:00 AM - Thread Starter
 
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The rise in shingles will be temporary if the chicken pox vaccine continues. To get shingles you need to have been exposed to chicken pox virus, and so if the reduction continues in 50 years or very few adults will have been exposed to it. 

 

Emma1325 - could you provide links to back those "facts"? 


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#6 of 43 Old 09-25-2012, 05:17 AM
 
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There are too many unknowns for me to get excited about the reduction in the number of sick people.  As far as I can tell, with the massive rise in shingles, the number of sick people hasn't really changed all that much.  What has been achieved is an increase in the market for the chickenpox vaccine, a huge market for the shingles vaccine, and an increase in anti-virals sales (for people who get shingles).
 

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#7 of 43 Old 09-25-2012, 06:38 AM
 
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I think 50 years is a long time to put up with an increase in shingles over a disease that was not too harmful to begin with.

 

I am concerned that the decrease in childhood illness may be related to the increase in asthma, allergies and some auto-immune responses.  Nature abhors a vaccum. Early childhood diseases teach the immune system how to behave - aka the hygiene hypothesis.  

 

I do know such things as over zealous cleaning also relate to the hygiene theory, and that kids are still exposed to some diseases (although I suspect some in favour of vaccination would like to have vaxxes for the common cold - and new diseases are added to the schedule all.the.time) so, yeah, I worry about under-exposure to usually benign childhood illnesses.

 

An article for those interested in the hygiene theory (not specifically about vaccines):

 

http://www.aspergillus.org.uk/secure/articles/pdfs2/nri1001-069a.pdf

 

I understand having a vax for polio, for example, as the serious complication rate is 1/100.  The risks of the disease outweigh concerns around the increase in allergies, asthma, etc.

 

The same does not hold true for the chicken pox in children (or rubella, rota in the usa, mumps…)


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#8 of 43 Old 09-25-2012, 06:49 AM
 
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Chicken pox vaccine associated with shingles epidemic

 

 

Quote:

 

New research published in the International Journal of Toxicology (IJT)by Gary S. Goldman, Ph.D., reveals high rates of shingles (herpes zoster) in Americans since the government's 1995 recommendation that all children receive chicken pox vaccine.

 

 

i  couldn't make the font any smaller..it wouldn't let me

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#9 of 43 Old 09-25-2012, 07:19 AM
 
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Shingles is a much nastier disease than chicken pox.

 

I read a few overviews of shingles and they all sounded scary.

 

Here is one:

http://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/disease/herpes-zoster/possible-complications.html

 

I would take chicken pox over an increased risk of shingles any day.

 

Of course, there is a vaccine for shingles…..(handy, isn't it?)


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#10 of 43 Old 09-25-2012, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Of course, there is a vaccine for shingles…..(handy, isn't it?)

 

Yes it is. A modern miracle of science. :) 

 

Chicken pox can have nasty complications in a small fraction of cases. For example: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-foyle-west-18445870


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#11 of 43 Old 09-25-2012, 07:59 AM
 
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Chicken pox is not always so benign.  I had chicken pox when I was 2 years old.  I acquired it from a sibling who was exposed to it at a friend's house.  We had the healthiest lifestyle you can imagine--tons of fresh air, running around outside all the day, plenty of exercise, whole foods diet, etc.  This was about a decade pre-vaccine.  All of my siblings and cousins did just fine with chicken pox.  I lucked out and had a severe case--literally covered head to toe with barely any regular skin showing.  I was extremely ill, had dangerously high fevers, had to be hospitalized, and I still have many scars.  To make matters worse, I acquired my first case of shingles at age 7.  Diagnosis was slow due to my young age (it just wasn't seen in children at that time).  By the time I was diagnosed I had celllulitis and ended up hospitalized again.  I have since had shingles an additional five times prior to age 25.  To say it's excruciatingly painful is an understatement.  I was a very healthy child who was rarely sick with anything and had a great lifestyle.  However, my body just couldn't deal very well with that virus. I would never want my child to have to go through all that if it could possibly be prevented with a vaccine.

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#12 of 43 Old 09-25-2012, 10:04 AM
 
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Chicken pox can have nasty complications in a small fraction of cases. For example: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-foyle-west-18445870

Agreed.  The question is if the the risks of chicken pox are worse than the risks of vaccines (both immediate risk, as well as more long term issues, such as the spike in shingles, if childhood diseases play a role in keeping the immune system healthy, the possibility that the chicken pox vaccine may not be effective long term (as is the case with pertussis) or as effective as natural immunity, in which case the disease burden might switch to adults - who are less equipped to handle chicken pox).

 

Personally, I believe the evidence is in favour of not mass vaccinating children for CP.   


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#13 of 43 Old 09-25-2012, 10:06 AM - Thread Starter
 
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And I wish I could choose the vaccine for my kids - but it's not currently offered on the NHS. That's actually what drove me to start researching vaccines more (well that and being a natural parenting inclined parent, so often assumed to be anti-vax).  


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#14 of 43 Old 09-25-2012, 03:14 PM
 
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The rise in shingles will be temporary if the chicken pox vaccine continues. To get shingles you need to have been exposed to chicken pox virus, and so if the reduction continues in 50 years or very few adults will have been exposed to it. 

Emma1325 - could you provide links to back those "facts"? 

I called them concerns, but thanks for the sarcastic quotes. If you disagree with my concerns, maybe provide me with some evidence to the contrary?

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#15 of 43 Old 09-25-2012, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I called them concerns, but thanks for the sarcastic quotes. If you disagree with my concerns, maybe provide me with some evidence to the contrary?

Sorry, my mistake. I'll put it a different way. What is the source of your concerns?

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#16 of 43 Old 09-25-2012, 03:25 PM
 
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The rise in shingles will be temporary if the chicken pox vaccine continues. To get shingles you need to have been exposed to chicken pox virus, and so if the reduction continues in 50 years or very few adults will have been exposed to it. 

 

 

 

The chicken pox vaccine actually exposes you to the virus--which means you can still get shingles.  In fact, there has been a rise in PEDIATRIC shingles amongst children who were vaccinated for chicken pox.  Studies on this have been posted many times on MDC. 

 

So it's incorrect to say that very few adults will have been exposed to chicken pox in 50 years.  They will all have been vaccinated for it, and will have been exposed through vaccination. 

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#17 of 43 Old 09-25-2012, 03:26 PM
 
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Sorry, my mistake. I'll put it a different way. What is the source of your concerns?

 

 

 

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Chicken pox vaccine associated with shingles epidemic

 

 

 

 

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Seems like a pretty good source for concern. And perhaps even "facts."

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#18 of 43 Old 09-25-2012, 03:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Bit of an exaggeration though. There's a mild increase in adult shingles linked to the vaccine which has reduced a childhood disease by 80%. You win some you loose some. Not vacciniting your child will not help that at all either, as it's related to the levels of varicella circulating in the population. If most children get the jab this will decline, so the only solution is adult shingles vaccine.

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#19 of 43 Old 09-25-2012, 04:09 PM
 
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Seems like a pretty good source for concern. And perhaps even "facts."



Thanks!

My first concern is pretty obviously valid; the vaccine is known to provide only temporary immunity (in most but not all individuals). It was originally promoted as a one time shot; a booster has been added since they learned immunity wanes over time. This in itself demonstrates that not enough is known about the effects of the vaccine. What might they eventually learn about the long term side effects?

My safety concerns are based all on lack of safety studies and a flawed reporting system.

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#20 of 43 Old 09-25-2012, 08:57 PM
 
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Bit of an exaggeration though. There's a mild increase in adult shingles linked to the vaccine which has reduced a childhood disease by 80%. You win some you loose some. Not vacciniting your child will not help that at all either, as it's related to the levels of varicella circulating in the population. If most children get the jab this will decline, so the only solution is adult shingles vaccine.

Speaking of exaggerations..!

 

You win some, you lose some?  

 

How about, nearly all well-nourished, previously healthy children who have  chicken pox recover without complications?

 

How about, the chicken pox jab AND the shingles jab come with risks, and a subgroup of children--and adults--will have lifelong severe effects or even die from those vaccines?  You win some, you lose some?

 

How about, HHS has very recently compensated many cases of vaccine-related ADEM, encepalopathy, Guillaine-Barre syndrome, transverse myelitis, etc?  You win some, you lose some?

 

You want to lose some--YOU take all the vaccines you want, give your child all the vaccines you want, and deal with the consequences. But unless you can identify and screen for the subgroup(s) who will have severe adverse effects from the vaccines, let's call a spade a spade, shall we, and admit that we really don't know who is going to react, or why, only that some obviously do.  And for those people, it's not worth the risk--so for SOCIETY, it's not worth the risk.

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#21 of 43 Old 09-25-2012, 09:31 PM
 
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Bit of an exaggeration though. There's a mild increase in adult shingles linked to the vaccine which has reduced a childhood disease by 80%. You win some you loose some. Not vacciniting your child will not help that at all either, as it's related to the levels of varicella circulating in the population. If most children get the jab this will decline, so the only solution is adult shingles vaccine.

 

 

From CDC scientists/authors:

The Impact of the Varicella Vaccination Program on Herpes Zoster Epidemiology in the United States: A Review

Division of Viral Diseases, National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, Georgia

 

http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/197/Supplement_2/S224.full

 

From the abstract:

... Data suggest that heretofore unidentified risk factors for HZ also are changing over time. Further studies are needed to identify these factors, to isolate possible additional effects from a varicella vaccination program. Untangling the contribution of these different factors on HZ epidemiology will be challenging....

 

 

From the last paragraph in the article:

... Indeed, given the complex and unpredictable nature of the interactions between varicella and HZ, it will be very important to monitor and analyze the epidemiology of these 2 illnesses that have substantial public health impacts, to ensure that vaccination programs are resulting in the intended benefits. ...

 

 

Caution warranted perhaps  - the fact that scientists from CDC wrote this ... it was a good enough reason to take a pause, at least for me ... Granted the article was published in 2008 - if there's a similar review that's more recent ... please do share ...

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#22 of 43 Old 09-25-2012, 10:00 PM
 
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The rise in shingles will be temporary if the chicken pox vaccine continues. To get shingles you need to have been exposed to chicken pox virus, and so if the reduction continues in 50 years or very few adults will have been exposed to it. 

Emma1325 - could you provide links to back those "facts"? 
As already stated, anyone who has been vaccinated for chicken pox has thereby been exposed to it.

Shingles is a more severe disease than chicken pox --including permanent post-herpetic neuralgia for some, and severe nerve pain for all.
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#23 of 43 Old 09-25-2012, 10:14 PM
 
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What about the rise in shingles that has occurred? 

Isn't shingles an old person disease? And don't we have an increase in the number of people at risk for shingles due to age? When my dd was younger the research said that it was people who got chicken pox who carried the shingles virus and were at risk for it activating and most older people got chicken pox as kids before the vaccine.
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#24 of 43 Old 09-25-2012, 10:34 PM
 
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Isn't shingles an old person disease? And don't we have an increase in the number of people at risk for shingles due to age? When my dd was younger the research said that it was people who got chicken pox who carried the shingles virus and were at risk for it activating and most older people got chicken pox as kids before the vaccine.

It used to be. It is now occurring more frequently in children. The rest of this thread addressed your other statement.

 

*edited to add qualifier 


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#25 of 43 Old 09-26-2012, 02:00 PM
 
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The chickenpox vaccine may increase the risk of shingles.  It did not, however, create the problem of shingles.  Shingles has always been around.  The population for which the shingles vaccine is recommended has always been at higher risk of shingles.  It would be recommended for them anyway even if we didn't vaccinate for chickenpox.  My grandparents were worried about shingles in the '80s, though slightly confused about it's cause - they avoided me when I had chickpenpox because they thought being exposed to cp when you'd already had it long ago could cause shingles, and having had friends suffer horribly from shingles, they didn't want to go through that. 

 

So we have the chickenpox vaccine with it's potential to increase shingles in the older generation and those of the younger who experience wild chickenpox, but also the expectation that it will decrease shingles in the long run as those who had only the vaccine and not wild chickenpox are believed to be less likely to develop shingles.  We also have the shingles vaccine which certainly will decrease shingles risk for those who get it, perhaps to a greater extent even than widespread use of the cp vaccine could raise it.  How does it all balance out?  I'm not really sure.  There is a lot of wait and see going on, which coupled with concerns that immunity might not be lifelong without regular exposure to cp makes chickenpox the one vax I was really iffy about, and I'm still not sure whether it is good for society as a whole or not.  

 

I vaccinate primarily for the protection of my children but also with a secondary reason of keeping them from spreading disease thus protecting other people too.  With the chcikenpox vax, I ended up that getting them the vax was both the best option for trying to protect them from both chickenpox and shingles, and so, in a society where risk of shingles may be rising, giving them that protection was more important than trying to protect myself from shingles by letting them get sick with chickenpox to boost my own immunity.  This is something that I find rather strange about this conversation, that people who are solidly against even mentioning herd immunity or protecting anyone else beyond the child in question as even being mentioned as a reason for vaccinating that child think others should be letting our kids get sick in order to lower our own risk of shingles.  

 

Why is it wrong to vax a child to maintain herd immunity, but okay to let them get sick so they can act as a natural booster against shingles to the rest of us?  And yes, most healthy, well fed children recover just fine, but not 100%, and some have a really awful time of it, or, in rare cases, long term complications.  That is another thing, why is a very rare adverse event only of concern when it may have been caused by a vaccine, and then it is a big deal?  But a rare complication of a disease is dismissed without a second thought because it is rare so probably won't happen to you, not worth worrying about it at all, anyone who bothers to mention the potential at all is just using nasty scare tactics?  

 

 

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The chicken pox vaccine actually exposes you to the virus--which means you can still get shingles.  In fact, there has been a rise in PEDIATRIC shingles amongst children who were vaccinated for chicken pox.  Studies on this have been posted many times on MDC. 

 

So it's incorrect to say that very few adults will have been exposed to chicken pox in 50 years.  They will all have been vaccinated for it, and will have been exposed through vaccination. 

 

Could you please do me a favour and point me in the direction of one of these studies?  I don't really have time to go through all the old threads looking for them, especially as there have been several long CP threads, and I'm pretty sure I've already read all of them from the past year or so and don't recall any mention of such study results.  There are a couple of studies showing that vaxed kids have a decreased risk of shingles, and one of those did show a rise in rates of older (late teens, I think?) unvaxed-for-cp kids, but it was not clear if that was a result of the vaccine being used in the community or not.  Perhaps I missed something, but I'm pretty sure if there was a study showing an increased risk of shingles in kids who had been vaxed for cp it would have gotten a lot of attention here and been pretty hard to miss.  

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#26 of 43 Old 09-26-2012, 02:20 PM
 
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I vaccinate primarily for the protection of my children but also with a secondary reason of keeping them from spreading disease thus protecting other people too.  With the chcikenpox vax, I ended up that getting them the vax was both the best option for trying to protect them from both chickenpox and shingles, and so, in a society where risk of shingles may be rising, giving them that protection was more important than trying to protect myself from shingles by letting them get sick with chickenpox to boost my own immunity.  This is something that I find rather strange about this conversation, that people who are solidly against even mentioning herd immunity or protecting anyone else beyond the child in question as even being mentioned as a reason for vaccinating that child think others should be letting our kids get sick in order to lower our own risk of shingles.  

 

Why is it wrong to vax a child to maintain herd immunity, but okay to let them get sick so they can act as a natural booster against shingles to the rest of us?  

 

I think most non-vaxxers want their child to experience CP as a child as it is easier and safer for children to get CP than adults.  I don't think the shingles part plays into it very much.  The reduction in shingles is a benefit - not the reason.  Yes, it would be unethical to expose a child to a disease (with a small risk) just to reduce the chance of another disease in another population.  

 

I would add that vaccinating a child does seem to increase the amount of shingles flaoting around, and will do so for the next 50 years or so.  Quite frankly, I could very well scream "selfish", a word thrown at me often for not vaccinating.  I won't though: a parent has a right to protect their child first.  I sincerely hope none of the people who like to toss the selfish word around at non-vaxxers choose to vaccinate for CP or they are real hypocrites. One cannot yell "selfish - you should consider the health of others!" while simultaneously choosing to vax for cp to prevent your child from getting a mild illness - an act which increases  a much more serious disease in another population.

 

 

And yes, most healthy, well fed children recover just fine, but not 100%, and some have a really awful time of it, or, in rare cases, long term complications.  That is another thing, why is a very rare adverse event only of concern when it may have been caused by a vaccine, and then it is a big deal?  But a rare complication of a disease is dismissed without a second thought because it is rare so probably won't happen to you, not worth worrying about it at all, anyone who bothers to mention the potential at all is just using nasty scare tactics?  

 

Balderdash smile.gif  Non-vaxxers almost always focus on  vaccine reactions (and - in the non-vax corner - we have no idea how rare vax reactions are as events are under-accepted and under-reported); pro-vaxxers almost always focus on rare complications of disease.  

 

 

 

K.


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#27 of 43 Old 09-26-2012, 02:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pers View Post

 

 but also the expectation that it will decrease shingles in the long run as those who had only the vaccine and not wild chickenpox are believed to be less likely to develop shingles.  


What is this belief based on?

 

I expect I'm going to end up getting the varicella vax for my kids, because they haven't, despite repeated attempts, caught wild chickenpox. I'd much rather they had, but I do want to reduce the odds of them catching chickenpox as adults. So, while pro-vaccine people get upset about non-vaccinators messing with herd immunity, I'm upset that herd immunity has kept my kids from catching wild chickenpox at an early age. What was that quote upthread? "You win some, you lose some".


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#28 of 43 Old 09-27-2012, 07:49 AM
 
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Doctors dont even diagnose chicken pox anymore. My friends DD had it, and it took 2 doctors and 3 visits to diagnose the chicken pox. They didnt want to believe she had it because she was vaccinated. They said allergies, or some other viral illness. I saw the marks, it was clearly chicken pox. So I dont know how true that 80% reduction really is. 


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#29 of 43 Old 09-27-2012, 08:48 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MountainMamaGC View Post

Doctors dont even diagnose chicken pox anymore. My friends DD had it, and it took 2 doctors and 3 visits to diagnose the chicken pox. They didnt want to believe she had it because she was vaccinated. They said allergies, or some other viral illness. I saw the marks, it was clearly chicken pox. So I dont know how true that 80% reduction really is. 

My nephew was diagnosed with it 4mos old...it depends on the dr,   and his common sense approach.   If no common sense approach exists,  then such a dr  relies soley on book and research information/peer reviewed data., which we know seem to purport this vax does not cause pox nor shingles..

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#30 of 43 Old 09-27-2012, 08:53 AM
 
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When my three had chicken pox, they didn't see a doctor, there was no need. So their cases were never reported. 


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