Utter madness: UK to give pregnant women whooping cough vaccine - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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Old 11-13-2012, 02:12 PM
 
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It's not a blog. It's a magazine article. The authors work for a major research institute and they're describing their own original research.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:59 PM
 
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It does both. It lowers your odds of contracting it and if you get it you typically get a milder case. I say it prevents transmission because milder case = less coughing and less coughing = less transmission.


milder case means someone may not  know they have it (may think it's a common cold) and thus spreads it more because they arent staying away from work and public in general


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Old 11-13-2012, 03:02 PM
 
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milder case means someone may not  know they have it (may think it's a common cold) and thus spreads it more because they arent staying away from work and public in general

Also reduces the likelihood you'll spread it in an pay individual encounter as well as the length of time you're contagious.

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Old 11-13-2012, 03:18 PM
 
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I just came across this today.

 

http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/37/6/772.full

 

 

 

Quote:
Unvaccinated children were twice as likely as vaccinated children to have severe disease
 
. . . 
 
Duration of illness was higher among children with severe disease than among those with mild disease
 
. . . 
 
These results indicate that pertussis vaccination substantially decreases the severity of breakthrough disease in children who receive 3 doses of vaccine, compared with that in unvaccinated children. The majority of the vaccinated children who developed pertussis experienced mild disease, regardless of whether they had previously received a WC or an AC vaccine.

 

Further, someone who has a less severe case to begin with has a less severe case to spread.

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Old 11-13-2012, 03:23 PM
 
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I just came across this today.

 

http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/37/6/772.full

 

 

 

 

This is from a 1993 study in Senegal, with many of the recipients getting the whole-cell DTP.  Hardly relevant to 2012 in the US or UK, don't you think?

 

And in just skimming the study, I found this:

"Laboratory samples were not obtained from asymptomatic children, and therefore we could not estimate the efficacy of the vaccine in preventing infection. We found that duration of illness was associated with severity, regardless of vaccination status."


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Old 11-13-2012, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Further, someone who has a less severe case to begin with has a less severe case to spread.

I am sorry this is rubbish. How a disease presents on one individual person has no bearing on how it will present in another. 


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Old 11-13-2012, 03:29 PM
 
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Did you see the part where it said vaccinated children were way less likely to have a severe case than unvaccinated? And that it was true for both wc and ac vaccines? I don't think being done in Senegal makes it irrelevant to the us. Sick kids are sick kids.

It's true that this particular study doesn't speak to the vaccines ability to prevent the disease, though many others do. This one is just about severity.
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:29 PM
 
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Maybe you should read the study I posted, Mirzam.
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I just came across this today.

 

http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/37/6/772.full

 

 

 

 

This is from a 1993 study in Senegal, with many of the recipients getting the whole-cell DTP.  Hardly relevant to 2012 in the US or UK, don't you think?

 

And in just skimming the study, I found this:

"Laboratory samples were not obtained from asymptomatic children, and therefore we could not estimate the efficacy of the vaccine in preventing infection. We found that duration of illness was associated with severity, regardless of vaccination status."

 

 

http://www.beyondconformity.co.nz/_blog/Hilary's_Desk/post/Whooping_cough_immunity/

 

 

 

As the graphic turned out so small here is what it says:

 

 

 

Quote:
All of these early studies suggest that a very high proprotion of children in large unvaccinated populations had been infected with Bordella pertussis by age 10. There are several reasons to supporse that this proportion approached 100% and that the shortfall in reported disease was due largely to atypical, asymtopmatic or forgotten infections. First recent authors have estimated that an appreciable proportion (e.g. 25%) of infections are asymptomatic. (Linneman 1979)

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Old 11-13-2012, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Maybe you should read the study I posted, Mirzam.

From you quote, you said that someone with a mild case of pertissis will pass a mild case onto another person. That is rubbish. So you believe, an adult with a largely asymptomatic case of WC will pass the same mild case to a three week old baby?


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Old 11-13-2012, 03:45 PM
 
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http://www.beyondconformity.co.nz/_blog/Hilary's_Desk/post/Whooping_cough_immunity/



As the graphic turned out so small here is what it says:



I don't understand what this has to do with anything.
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From you quote, you said that someone with a mild case of pertissis will pass a mild case onto another person. That is rubbish. So you believe, an adult with a largely asymptomatic case of WC will pass the same mild case to a three week old baby?

Please read what the study linked to above says about secondary infections.
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:46 PM
 
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Okay, just trying to get a bearing on this. Maybe someone here could help me clarify

 

So when a pregnant woman receives the WC vax then her due to pregnancy lowered immune system is producing antibodies and subsequently passing it on to the fetus. Right?

 

Okay, now my question concerning this is: Has there been a study were the titers of the babies 'vaxxed' in this way have been taken and shown that these babies are to some extend immune?
 


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Old 11-13-2012, 03:56 PM
 
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Okay, just trying to get a bearing on this. Maybe someone here could help me clarify

So when a pregnant woman receives the WC vax then her due to pregnancy lowered immune system is producing antibodies and subsequently passing it on to the fetus. Right?

Okay, now my question concerning this is: Has there been a study were the titers of the babies 'vaxxed' in this way have been taken and shown that these babies are to some extend immune?

 

Idk if its been done regarding the vaccine specifically, but it has been done to asses if pertussis antibodies transfer from mother to fetus.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19812588/
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:18 PM
 
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I wish I could see the full text of this article. I might have to try through my local library.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1473309907701135
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:27 PM
 
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More info on checking antibodies in neonates, this time dealing with maternal vaccination specifically.
Quote:
After maternal immunization, concentrations of pertussis antibodies in infants ranged from 50% of maternal titers to approximately equal titers in mother-infant pairs.

http://mobile.journals.lww.com/pidj/_layouts/oaks.journals.mobile/articleviewer.aspx?year=2005&issue=05001&article=00012
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:40 PM
 
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More info on checking antibodies in neonates, this time dealing with maternal vaccination specifically.
http://mobile.journals.lww.com/pidj/_layouts/oaks.journals.mobile/articleviewer.aspx?year=2005&issue=05001&article=00012


Thanks for posting. This article just confirmed my suspicion. And wow to that no further studies regarding this sensitive topic have been published since the 1930s and 1940s. Yet all pregnant women should be vaccinated even though there is no new evidence supporting this claim.


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Old 11-13-2012, 05:01 PM
 
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Thanks for posting. This article just confirmed my suspicion. And wow to that no further studies regarding this sensitive topic have been published since the 1930s and 1940s. Yet all pregnant women should be vaccinated even though there is no new evidence supporting this claim.

 

WOW!  That's unbelievable.  Many mothers in the 30s and 40s would have had antibodies anyway due to having had pertussis or having been exposed to it.  

 

And those studies used a version of the vaccine that is no longer used.  


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Old 11-13-2012, 05:14 PM
 
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Well that article is from 2005, so it's possible something has been done since then.  There has been research since then showing that immunization induces the production of antibodies and that antibodies are shared with the fetus through the placenta, so it's not exactly uncharted territory.

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Old 11-13-2012, 05:32 PM
 
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Well that article is from 2005, so it's possible something has been done since then.  There has been research since then showing that immunization induces the production of antibodies and that antibodies are shared with the fetus through the placenta, so it's not exactly uncharted territory.

 

The article stated "The possibility of protecting young infants against pertussis by immunizing their mothers during pregnancy was investigated in the 1930s and 1940s; no further studies have been published since. "


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Old 11-13-2012, 05:33 PM
 
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Right. And that reticle is seven years old. So maybe other studies have been done since then.
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:10 AM
 
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Totally OT - but I love the typo. I imagine vaccine safety researchers working in very small bags! (although I'm thinking of reticule it seems: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/reticule

 

On topic - I'm not sure it's all about passing on the immunity, but also making the mothers immune so they won't be carriers to the newborns. I think there was a study that said in the majority of cases on infant pertussis it was the mother who passed the infection to the baby, so I think the idea is to shut off that transmission path. 


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Old 11-14-2012, 10:33 AM
 
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On topic - I'm not sure it's all about passing on the immunity, but also making the mothers immune so they won't be carriers to the newborns. I think there was a study that said in the majority of cases on infant pertussis it was the mother who passed the infection to the baby, so I think the idea is to shut off that transmission path. 

I remember reading this in a thread and a very important bit was left out. In the majority of cases where they knew where the child got WC from, they got it from the mother.  The two statements are VERY different. 


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Old 11-14-2012, 12:15 PM
 
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Right. And that reticle is seven years old. So maybe other studies have been done since then.

 

 

Such as this one:  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21272845 from 201 which concludes that giving women Tdap in ppregnancy does protect newborns.  I wish I could  see the full paper and methodology rather than just the abstract. 

 

A quick pub med search turned up two other related studies.  One looked at women who got the Tdap between pregnancies, comparing the newborn titers of the first pregnancy to that of the second and finding that the babies born after the Tdap had higher titers than their older sibling had had.  Another one looking at newborn levels for women who had Tdap prior to pregnancy or early in pregnancy did not have promising results though, contrary to the other studies.  It found that babies from mothers who had Tdap prior to prengnancy or early in pregnancy were not born with protective amounts of antibodies.  This one suggested that giving Tdap late in pregnancy could be a solution, but it doesn't appear from the abstract that the study actually looked at that, so apparently just a suggestion for future study.   

 

There were also some animal studies, one which brought up the possibility that maternal antibodies from vaccinated mice interfered with vaccinating the baby mice later.  I assume they would have considered the possibility of this with humans, but I don't know what evidence they have that allowed them to dismiss these worries, or if they have been completely dismissed. 

 

This was like five minutes of searching, so entirely possible I missed some stuff.  What I did turn up is not enough to say for certain that Tdap in pregnancy will protect babies, but it is a good point in that direction.  I do not have a problem giving it to pregnant women as things stand in the hopes that it will work, I just hope women are being well informed as to what the current evidence is/the lack therof, and that people are watching the numbers closely so that soon we will know for sure exactly how well it works.  

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Old 11-15-2012, 02:25 PM
 
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I realy doubt that they are being told that the risks/benefits aren't fully known.  All I ever get when my kids or I are offered a vaccine is that they are safe and effective risks are so low etc....   I know we are discussing pg women, and I've never been offered a vax while pregnant so I don't know for sure of course.


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Old 11-15-2012, 02:57 PM
 
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I think that's a legitimate criticism.

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